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Kenders in Ravenloft

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
May 24, 2004 5:36:48 Hi,

I´m DMing an Ravenloft campaign and on of my players plays an Kender Rouge.

Kenders are imune to fear, so he don´t need to do fear checks.

But how about Horror Checks? The Player argued with me about them. He thinks his charakter is immune to the effekts of Horror because his immunity to ferar, but i think that Horror is more than just an "increase of Fear". I´m skipping all of the "fear based" horror effekts for him anyway.

What do you think, does is a kender immune to the horrors, or only partly (a bonus on the checks or so) or does he have to face all of the horror the DP throw on him ?

by the way: Excause my bad english
#2
malus_black
May 24, 2004 7:34:55 In my opinion, you should keep the horror checks. After all, horror is not the same as fear, even though they may seem similar. Think about it; the kender might not be terrified of a werewolf charging towards him (fear save), but I'd say he'd still react if a loved one suddenly started growing fur and claws in the light of the full moon (horror save).

So, in my opinion, horror saves all the way.
#3
sabbattack
May 24, 2004 8:41:31 Nope, nope, and no!!! (Ok guys, I'm a bit prejudiced against Dragonlance and especially kenders, so this is gonna be wicked...at least )

The fact that the mere stupidity of the common, easily-bored kender grants it an immunity to fear does not mean that it can surpass fear-based horror checks or even horror in general.

Imagine the following:
--(kender): Oh, look, this guy has wings and fangs!!! How strange! I think I should meet him. (the guy is a werebat ) - this is possible.
BUT
--(kender): Haha, this man in front of us smells of rotten decay and has a human hand hanging from his jaws!! How kewl!! How does he do that?? (the guy is a zombie ) - no, big no-no!

I know that the above examples are over-simplified, but my point was to show that kenders are fearless, not stupid!! Horror is straight to the soul or the subconscious, so it is impossible for kenders or any race/class to automatically succeed it.
Furthermore, even a Paladin's magical immunity to fear doesn't cope with horror or madness checks. Kenders would be at least broken if they could pass two of the most important aspects of Ravenloft via a back door. They don't deserve it.

finally, as a really evil DM and person, I suggest you let him succeed some of the "fear-based" horror checks as he should....In traditional kender curriocity Mouahahaha!!! (That's totally sadistic though. Think about it before using it. It's more like a punishment).

Hope these helped, Cheers!!
#4
zombiegleemax
May 24, 2004 9:34:30 At the risk of over doing it horror and fear utilize different ends of the digestive tract. Horror leaving you more likely to lose your lunch at the sheer enormity of it all. It encompases so many other emotions than fear.
#5
zombiegleemax
May 24, 2004 10:24:58 Thanks,

the poor little Kender won´t be the same if he reaches krynn again.

But i think my two dwarfes from mithril hall, whick are also in this group will deal with him first ^^ :D
#6
zombiegleemax
May 24, 2004 10:45:27 Azalin once ruled on the K's boards that kender are indeed immune to fear checks, but not horror.

Read the Chronicles and Summer Flame. Tas definately fails some horror checks in that.

Plus even a kender would be wary if they had a malign paradim shift occur.
#7
rotipher
May 25, 2004 18:40:15 Although kender are (implausibly) fearless in the face of personal danger, they can and do fear for their friends' safety. (How many times did that little &*%$# Tasslehoff tell himself "But they need me!" as a self-justification for tagging along with his companions, even after they'd forbidden him to...?) A kender who witnesses a lycanthrope's transformation might NOT be afraid that he's about to get torn to bits, himself; but he could certainly be horrified by the painful, grotesque change which the poor lycanthropy-victim is suffering (if they're afflicted), or aghast at how the treacherous creature has exploited the kender's trust, the better to get him alone and eat him (if it's a "natural" werebeast). Either way, out-and-out EVIL can horrify in ways that danger, alone, cannot.
#8
cyrus_hunter
May 25, 2004 21:50:24 Perhaps failing enough horror checks turns them into Afflicted Kender?
#9
zombiegleemax
May 26, 2004 10:59:48 I'd just have kender immune to fear spells and the like, and give them a small bonus to "normal" fear checks. Having kender be immune to normal fear in a horror campaign kind of defeats the purpose. (This was the rationale for paladins as well, wasn't it?)
#10
zombiegleemax
May 26, 2004 11:14:40
Originally posted by Reginald de Curry
I'd just have kender immune to fear spells and the like, and give them a small bonus to "normal" fear checks. Having kender be immune to normal fear in a horror campaign kind of defeats the purpose. (This was the rationale for paladins as well, wasn't it?)

I wouldn't allow non-afflicted Kender in a Ravenloft campaign anyway.
#11
zombiegleemax
May 26, 2004 13:51:53 For those of us who don't have Dragonlance material at hand: what makes a kender afflicted?
#12
zombiegleemax
May 26, 2004 16:07:59 As I recall, afflicted kender were refugees from Kendermore after it was destroyed by Malyx the Red Dragon.
#13
zombiegleemax
May 26, 2004 22:39:42 And this means... what, exactly? They're depressed instead of insufferably perky?
#14
cyrus_hunter
May 27, 2004 1:21:07 Mechanically, they're different. They can't taunt as well, they become fearful and they become better thieves. Aside from that, they tend to be militaristic, somber and depressing to be around. Malyx's attack on Kendermore created the first known group of Afflicted Kender, but there's a strong likelyhood that there were some before, but just not in such a concentrated, and large group.

On another note, I seem to recall Lord Soth using vampire kender to stop merchants from passing through a certain tract of his land without paying taxes. All kender in his ex-realm, might very well be vampires.
#15
rian_lightblade
Jun 08, 2004 13:34:26 Kender Vampires were, without a doubt, the most pitiful creatures I, as PC, ever encountered or as a DM, ever used. Just reading the description in the RL MC is enough to tug at the old heart strings. Poor little fellas
#16
zombiegleemax
Jun 08, 2004 15:34:06
All kender in his ex-realm, might very well be vampires.

Actually, this is mentioned in the fourth Ravenloft Gazetteer. They are referred to as halflings, due to the licensing agreement with WotC, but they are the same creatures. In essence, there are some Kender that are not vampires that live in Sithicus, but they are all afflicted and savagely murder any other race that comes near their home.
#17
zombiegleemax
Jun 08, 2004 23:12:17 Mind you, 3.x halflings seem to be something like the crossbreed offspring of Tolkien hobbits and kender-- they've got the curiosity and wanderlust without the kleptomania and foolhardy fearlessness.
#18
zombiegleemax
Jun 14, 2004 20:25:08 Whoa! It suddenly all connects! I didn't know where Sithicus came from until this thread. The 3.0 and 3.5 Ravenloft material completely covers up any connection to dragonlance, but then I remembered a certain Lord Soth in Dragonlance who curiously meets the same general psychological patterns as the Ravenloft Darklord of the same name. And then the halflings... I can't believe I didn't see that sooner. So the elves would be Silvanesti. K, thanks for this thread. Its been a life saver :D
#19
awakenings
Jun 17, 2004 10:02:40 Check out the Keepers of the Coil in the Book of Souls. One of their members is an afflicted kender who seems well suited to RL.

Oh, and the RL3E says regarding a paladin's immunity to fear:

"Although the RL paladin remains immune to magical fear, she is not immune to 'natural' fear saves, which are the product of her own sense of survival. (In a sense, playing a PC immune to fear in a horror campaign is simply missing out on the point.) Instead, the paladin receives the Courage feat for free at 2nd level."

From this, it might be argued that the kender's lack of survival sense is what grants immunity, but there remains the greater question: why? Why play a character who is totally immune to fear in a horror campaign? If the player is arguing in favor of this immunity, maybe you should play in a different setting.

Either way, look at the differences between fear and horror, and explain them to your player. Immunity to fear does not grant immunity to horror. They are drastically different things.
#20
zombiegleemax
Jun 28, 2004 13:21:12 Are they playing an afflicted or a regular kender?
#21
zombiegleemax
Jun 30, 2004 14:02:35 he is a regular Kender.

But i think his party members will deal with him soon :D
#22
zombiegleemax
Jul 01, 2004 12:00:05 therefore they will commit an evil act and possibly attract the attention of the Land of Mists.
#23
zombiegleemax
Jul 01, 2004 13:09:50 That is true

That will be certenly fun, because they cant get rid with the effect of a failed powers check so easy...

That will be funny back in the realms. They would need some exaulted deeds and need to regret what they did....
#24
zombiegleemax
Jul 01, 2004 13:14:01 HA HA HA. THE KENDER WILL HAVE THE LAST WORD!:P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P
#25
The_Jester
Jul 02, 2004 3:30:43 Well I wouldn't have Kender immune to magica fear, but non-magical they would be. Or have an ungodly bonus to.

But they would be subject to horror, it is entirely removed and seperate from fear.
#26
zombiegleemax
Jul 02, 2004 9:31:11 Kender are immune to all types of fear. That is if they are not afflicted kender.
#27
zombiegleemax
Jul 02, 2004 15:08:04 Actually, in the Dragonlance novels, the Kender Tasslehoff Burrfoot was affected by the magical feaar aura in the forest surrounding the Tower of Magic in Palanthus. So you could house rule that Kender are not immune to fear, just get a large bonus on fear checks.
#28
zombiegleemax
Jul 13, 2004 8:00:33 IMO kender are for the romantic fantasy setting Dragonlance NOT the gothic/fantasy horror setting Ravenloft. Although both have some HEAVY role playing elements I don't think placing a kender in RL is a good idea.

~~~
#29
zombiegleemax
Jul 13, 2004 11:42:32 It is a good idea to place a kender in Ravenloft if you hate them!
#30
zombiegleemax
Jul 13, 2004 11:56:06
Originally posted by Amaron Blackthorn
It is a good idea to place a kender in Ravenloft if you hate them!

Kenders just do not seem to fit in with Ravenloft.

~~~
#31
zombiegleemax
Jul 13, 2004 11:58:33 No they dont but that doesnt mean that some DMs would not welcome the chance to send one there.
#32
zombiegleemax
Jul 14, 2004 8:20:10 *sigh* Kender + Ravenloft = An amusing disaster.

Or didn't you know that Uncle Trapspringer caused the Grand Conjunction?
#33
zombiegleemax
Jul 14, 2004 14:48:07 Bad Uncle Trapspringer, no pie for him!!
#34
zombiegleemax
Jul 17, 2004 11:53:33 I^ve managed to solve the problem with the kender

Thanks to the horde of asassin bugs who put an end to my mysery ^^
#35
zombiegleemax
Jul 28, 2004 11:47:54 Put an afflicted kender in Ravenloft. Or, what if you put a regular kender there and when and if he returned to Krynn he was an afflicted kender?
#36
zombiegleemax
Aug 08, 2004 10:39:02 Kender in ravenloft: Only if you have a player that can play kender that meens "doesn't go into a tavern" as the party ranger has hung them up by the topknot outside

Hlaflings / kender can add some ammusing traits to a game, it instantly gets the local militia moving :D
#37
zombiegleemax
Aug 16, 2004 10:42:07 I seem to vaguely remember a "Kender Vampire" somewhere (from 2nd. ed.?) So yes, there are kender in Ravenloft.
#38
awakenings
Aug 17, 2004 8:20:00 Yes, there are definitely kender in Ravenloft--that's never been the argument. Lord Soth pulled in a whole community of them to create his vampiric servants, and the ones who survived and escaped fled to wherever they could.

Non-canon sources claim some wound up in Ghastria while at least one stayed in Sithicus, but they are all afflicted now.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax May 24, 2004 5:36:48	Hi, I´m DMing an Ravenloft campaign and on of my players plays an Kender Rouge. Kenders are imune to fear, so he don´t need to do fear checks. But how about Horror Checks? The Player argued with me about them. He thinks his charakter is immune to the effekts of Horror because his immunity to ferar, but i think that Horror is more than just an "increase of Fear". I´m skipping all of the "fear based" horror effekts for him anyway. What do you think, does is a kender immune to the horrors, or only partly (a bonus on the checks or so) or does he have to face all of the horror the DP throw on him ? by the way: Excause my bad english
#2 malus_black May 24, 2004 7:34:55	In my opinion, you should keep the horror checks. After all, horror is not the same as fear, even though they may seem similar. Think about it; the kender might not be terrified of a werewolf charging towards him (fear save), but I'd say he'd still react if a loved one suddenly started growing fur and claws in the light of the full moon (horror save). So, in my opinion, horror saves all the way.
#3 sabbattack May 24, 2004 8:41:31	Nope, nope, and no!!! (Ok guys, I'm a bit prejudiced against Dragonlance and especially kenders, so this is gonna be wicked...at least ) The fact that the mere stupidity of the common, easily-bored kender grants it an immunity to fear does not mean that it can surpass fear-based horror checks or even horror in general. Imagine the following: --(kender): Oh, look, this guy has wings and fangs!!! How strange! I think I should meet him. (the guy is a werebat ) - this is possible. BUT --(kender): Haha, this man in front of us smells of rotten decay and has a human hand hanging from his jaws!! How kewl!! How does he do that?? (the guy is a zombie ) - no, big no-no! I know that the above examples are over-simplified, but my point was to show that kenders are fearless, not stupid!! Horror is straight to the soul or the subconscious, so it is impossible for kenders or any race/class to automatically succeed it. Furthermore, even a Paladin's magical immunity to fear doesn't cope with horror or madness checks. Kenders would be at least broken if they could pass two of the most important aspects of Ravenloft via a back door. They don't deserve it. finally, as a really evil DM and person, I suggest you let him succeed some of the "fear-based" horror checks as he should....In traditional kender curriocity Mouahahaha!!! (That's totally sadistic though. Think about it before using it. It's more like a punishment). Hope these helped, Cheers!!
#4 zombiegleemax May 24, 2004 9:34:30	At the risk of over doing it horror and fear utilize different ends of the digestive tract. Horror leaving you more likely to lose your lunch at the sheer enormity of it all. It encompases so many other emotions than fear.
#5 zombiegleemax May 24, 2004 10:24:58	Thanks, the poor little Kender won´t be the same if he reaches krynn again. But i think my two dwarfes from mithril hall, whick are also in this group will deal with him first ^^ :D
#6 zombiegleemax May 24, 2004 10:45:27	Azalin once ruled on the K's boards that kender are indeed immune to fear checks, but not horror. Read the Chronicles and Summer Flame. Tas definately fails some horror checks in that. Plus even a kender would be wary if they had a malign paradim shift occur.
#7 rotipher May 25, 2004 18:40:15	Although kender are (implausibly) fearless in the face of personal danger, they can and do fear for their friends' safety. (How many times did that little &*%$# Tasslehoff tell himself "But they need me!" as a self-justification for tagging along with his companions, even after they'd forbidden him to...?) A kender who witnesses a lycanthrope's transformation might NOT be afraid that he's about to get torn to bits, himself; but he could certainly be horrified by the painful, grotesque change which the poor lycanthropy-victim is suffering (if they're afflicted), or aghast at how the treacherous creature has exploited the kender's trust, the better to get him alone and eat him (if it's a "natural" werebeast). Either way, out-and-out EVIL can horrify in ways that danger, alone, cannot.
#8 cyrus_hunter May 25, 2004 21:50:24	Perhaps failing enough horror checks turns them into Afflicted Kender?
#9 zombiegleemax May 26, 2004 10:59:48	I'd just have kender immune to fear spells and the like, and give them a small bonus to "normal" fear checks. Having kender be immune to normal fear in a horror campaign kind of defeats the purpose. (This was the rationale for paladins as well, wasn't it?)
#10 zombiegleemax May 26, 2004 11:14:40	Originally posted by Reginald de Curry I'd just have kender immune to fear spells and the like, and give them a small bonus to "normal" fear checks. Having kender be immune to normal fear in a horror campaign kind of defeats the purpose. (This was the rationale for paladins as well, wasn't it?) I wouldn't allow non-afflicted Kender in a Ravenloft campaign anyway.
#11 zombiegleemax May 26, 2004 13:51:53	For those of us who don't have Dragonlance material at hand: what makes a kender afflicted?
#12 zombiegleemax May 26, 2004 16:07:59	As I recall, afflicted kender were refugees from Kendermore after it was destroyed by Malyx the Red Dragon.
#13 zombiegleemax May 26, 2004 22:39:42	And this means... what, exactly? They're depressed instead of insufferably perky?
#14 cyrus_hunter May 27, 2004 1:21:07	Mechanically, they're different. They can't taunt as well, they become fearful and they become better thieves. Aside from that, they tend to be militaristic, somber and depressing to be around. Malyx's attack on Kendermore created the first known group of Afflicted Kender, but there's a strong likelyhood that there were some before, but just not in such a concentrated, and large group. On another note, I seem to recall Lord Soth using vampire kender to stop merchants from passing through a certain tract of his land without paying taxes. All kender in his ex-realm, might very well be vampires.
#15 rian_lightblade Jun 08, 2004 13:34:26	Kender Vampires were, without a doubt, the most pitiful creatures I, as PC, ever encountered or as a DM, ever used. Just reading the description in the RL MC is enough to tug at the old heart strings. Poor little fellas
#16 zombiegleemax Jun 08, 2004 15:34:06	All kender in his ex-realm, might very well be vampires. Actually, this is mentioned in the fourth Ravenloft Gazetteer. They are referred to as halflings, due to the licensing agreement with WotC, but they are the same creatures. In essence, there are some Kender that are not vampires that live in Sithicus, but they are all afflicted and savagely murder any other race that comes near their home.
#17 zombiegleemax Jun 08, 2004 23:12:17	Mind you, 3.x halflings seem to be something like the crossbreed offspring of Tolkien hobbits and kender-- they've got the curiosity and wanderlust without the kleptomania and foolhardy fearlessness.
#18 zombiegleemax Jun 14, 2004 20:25:08	Whoa! It suddenly all connects! I didn't know where Sithicus came from until this thread. The 3.0 and 3.5 Ravenloft material completely covers up any connection to dragonlance, but then I remembered a certain Lord Soth in Dragonlance who curiously meets the same general psychological patterns as the Ravenloft Darklord of the same name. And then the halflings... I can't believe I didn't see that sooner. So the elves would be Silvanesti. K, thanks for this thread. Its been a life saver :D
#19 awakenings Jun 17, 2004 10:02:40	Check out the Keepers of the Coil in the Book of Souls. One of their members is an afflicted kender who seems well suited to RL. Oh, and the RL3E says regarding a paladin's immunity to fear: "Although the RL paladin remains immune to magical fear, she is not immune to 'natural' fear saves, which are the product of her own sense of survival. (In a sense, playing a PC immune to fear in a horror campaign is simply missing out on the point.) Instead, the paladin receives the Courage feat for free at 2nd level." From this, it might be argued that the kender's lack of survival sense is what grants immunity, but there remains the greater question: why? Why play a character who is totally immune to fear in a horror campaign? If the player is arguing in favor of this immunity, maybe you should play in a different setting. Either way, look at the differences between fear and horror, and explain them to your player. Immunity to fear does not grant immunity to horror. They are drastically different things.
#20 zombiegleemax Jun 28, 2004 13:21:12	Are they playing an afflicted or a regular kender?
#21 zombiegleemax Jun 30, 2004 14:02:35	he is a regular Kender. But i think his party members will deal with him soon :D
#22 zombiegleemax Jul 01, 2004 12:00:05	therefore they will commit an evil act and possibly attract the attention of the Land of Mists.
#23 zombiegleemax Jul 01, 2004 13:09:50	That is true That will be certenly fun, because they cant get rid with the effect of a failed powers check so easy... That will be funny back in the realms. They would need some exaulted deeds and need to regret what they did....
#24 zombiegleemax Jul 01, 2004 13:14:01	HA HA HA. THE KENDER WILL HAVE THE LAST WORD!:P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P
#25 The_Jester Jul 02, 2004 3:30:43	Well I wouldn't have Kender immune to magica fear, but non-magical they would be. Or have an ungodly bonus to. But they would be subject to horror, it is entirely removed and seperate from fear.
#26 zombiegleemax Jul 02, 2004 9:31:11	Kender are immune to all types of fear. That is if they are not afflicted kender.
#27 zombiegleemax Jul 02, 2004 15:08:04	Actually, in the Dragonlance novels, the Kender Tasslehoff Burrfoot was affected by the magical feaar aura in the forest surrounding the Tower of Magic in Palanthus. So you could house rule that Kender are not immune to fear, just get a large bonus on fear checks.
#28 zombiegleemax Jul 13, 2004 8:00:33	IMO kender are for the romantic fantasy setting Dragonlance NOT the gothic/fantasy horror setting Ravenloft. Although both have some HEAVY role playing elements I don't think placing a kender in RL is a good idea. ~~~
#29 zombiegleemax Jul 13, 2004 11:42:32	It is a good idea to place a kender in Ravenloft if you hate them!
#30 zombiegleemax Jul 13, 2004 11:56:06	Originally posted by Amaron Blackthorn It is a good idea to place a kender in Ravenloft if you hate them! Kenders just do not seem to fit in with Ravenloft. ~~~
#31 zombiegleemax Jul 13, 2004 11:58:33	No they dont but that doesnt mean that some DMs would not welcome the chance to send one there.
#32 zombiegleemax Jul 14, 2004 8:20:10	sigh Kender + Ravenloft = An amusing disaster. Or didn't you know that Uncle Trapspringer caused the Grand Conjunction?
#33 zombiegleemax Jul 14, 2004 14:48:07	Bad Uncle Trapspringer, no pie for him!!
#34 zombiegleemax Jul 17, 2004 11:53:33	I^ve managed to solve the problem with the kender Thanks to the horde of asassin bugs who put an end to my mysery ^^
#35 zombiegleemax Jul 28, 2004 11:47:54	Put an afflicted kender in Ravenloft. Or, what if you put a regular kender there and when and if he returned to Krynn he was an afflicted kender?
#36 zombiegleemax Aug 08, 2004 10:39:02	Kender in ravenloft: Only if you have a player that can play kender that meens "doesn't go into a tavern" as the party ranger has hung them up by the topknot outside Hlaflings / kender can add some ammusing traits to a game, it instantly gets the local militia moving :D
#37 zombiegleemax Aug 16, 2004 10:42:07	I seem to vaguely remember a "Kender Vampire" somewhere (from 2nd. ed.?) So yes, there are kender in Ravenloft.
#38 awakenings Aug 17, 2004 8:20:00	Yes, there are definitely kender in Ravenloft--that's never been the argument. Lord Soth pulled in a whole community of them to create his vampiric servants, and the ones who survived and escaped fled to wherever they could. Non-canon sources claim some wound up in Ghastria while at least one stayed in Sithicus, but they are all afflicted now.