Also, would you allow a WoHS to cross class with a Cleric of another God? It is my belief that all Wizards are clerics or their Order's God, but the book only refers to them as 'Worshippers'.
I don't want to limit my players, but I also don't want them to get overly powerful with use of magic. But I really couldn't find anything governing this sort of thing in the DLCS. They don't allow Sorcerer/Wizards or Mystic/Clerics for obvious reasons, but they say nothing of Wizard/Clerics or Mystic Sorcerers.
Please, I need opinions! (Of course, Cam and Jaime's would be best, as the main men in the world of Krynn right now :P )
Just wanted other DM's opinions (players too really). One of my players wants to do a mystic sorcerer. What is everyone else's opinion on this? Do you think they should be able to weild two kinds of magic?
I don't remember ever reading in the gaming material of you not being able to have Sorcerer/Wizards but. I might have missed something.
They don't allow Mystic/Clerics.....
If you remember right Goldmoon was one.
2nd. I would allow Mystic/ Sorcerer, Any Divine caster/Wizard up to level 4 only. Due to any higher and the Wizards would want to call you a renegade.
3rd the NO NO list. WoHS/ Sorcerer, (Cleric, Druid, Paladin, or Ranger)/Mystic, WoHS/(Cleric, Druid, Mystic, Paladin, or Ranger)
Originally posted by metallicats15370
If you remember right Goldmoon was one.
Yeah, using the rules in the DLCS, you can go so far as a Cleric, then switch, your previous levels of Cleric become that of a Mystic. And that works both ways. Same thing for Wizards becoming Sorcerers and vice versa.
As for wizard/cleric up to level 4, that's fine, my concern is that of a Wizard of High Sorcery, not a regular wizard.
Originally posted by Darlantan
Just wanted other DM's opinions (players too really). One of my players wants to do a mystic sorcerer. What is everyone else's opinion on this? Do you think they should be able to weild two kinds of magic?
This is perfectly fine. Such a character may even take the path of a hybrid mage, trying to work both magics together. This is a great use for the Mystic Theurge prestige class, if you're looking to use it.
Also, would you allow a WoHS to cross class with a Cleric of another God? It is my belief that all Wizards are clerics or their Order's God, but the book only refers to them as 'Worshippers'.
You cannot be both a WoHS and a cleric, as you would have different patron deities for each class. Remember, only one patron deity per character.
However, you can have a cleric multiclass with a renegade mage, as he's using magic outside the Orders of High Sorcery and has not pledged himself to any of the deities of magic.
I don't want to limit my players, but I also don't want them to get overly powerful with use of magic. But I really couldn't find anything governing this sort of thing in the DLCS. They don't allow Sorcerer/Wizards or Mystic/Clerics for obvious reasons, but they say nothing of Wizard/Clerics or Mystic Sorcerers.
There's a couple of rules that affect the use of magic in Krynn.
1. According to Sovereign Press, a spellcaster cannot use both ambient magic (sorcery and mysticism) and focused magic (clerical magic and High Sorcery) at the same time. The idea here is that they are completely different types of energies.
It makes sense not having cleric/mystics as that's a matter of where one's faith and spiritualism lies. Wizard/sorcerers are similar, as a wizard must give himself entirely to the power of High Sorcery.
2. You cannot have more than one patron deity, so no WoHS/clerics.
3. If you multiclass between spellcasting classes, they must have the same patron deity. For example, a ranger/cleric or druid/cleric of Habbakuk is okay, as Habbakuk is a patron deity for druids and rangers. Such a multiclass combination for Majere wouldn't work, as Majere is not a patron deity for druids and rangers.
Please, I need opinions! (Of course, Cam and Jaime's would be best, as the main men in the world of Krynn right now :P )
Hopefully my humble opinion will suffice. ;)
Originally posted by Darlantan
Also, would you allow a WoHS to cross class with a Cleric of another God? It is my belief that all Wizards are clerics or their Order's God, but the book only refers to them as 'Worshippers'.
I would say no...That would be worshipping one god just to get spells. [The Gods of Magic don't grant cleric spells for those who don't know.]
In my eyes, if you are a Wizard of High Sorcery then you should be a worshipper of your color moon.
You pretty much just cleared up all my concerns. Though I'm still iffy on giving him Sorcerer/Mystic, I just know he's gonna abuse it somehow.
I never really thought about Druid/Cleric or Ranger/Cleric sorts, but thanx for the idea, I may just do that with an NPC or two. Thats a great idea.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm:
There's a couple of rules that affect the use of magic in Krynn.
1. According to Sovereign Press, a spellcaster cannot use both ambient magic (sorcery and mysticism) and focused magic (clerical magic and High Sorcery) at the same time. The idea here is that they are completely different types of energies.
It makes sense not having cleric/mystics as that's a matter of where one's faith and spiritualism lies. Wizard/sorcerers are similar, as a wizard must give himself entirely to the power of High Sorcery.
Okay, gotta have it spelled out for the slow one here.
Definitely see no mixing of ambient/focused WITHIN the same magic type, divine or arcane (no Clr/Mys, Wiz/Sor, WoHS/Sor). Also, definitely no Clr/WoHS due to patron deity stuff. And just to be thorough, Clr here can include Drd while Sor can include Brd.
However, is there a clause missing or does this rule truly mean no criss-crossing (no Clr/Sor, Mys/Wiz4, Mys/WoHS)? The only multiclass options are Clr/Wiz4 and Mys/Sor?
What about Clr/Brd for Branchala? And if allowable through magic criss-crossing, would there be a "patron" problem with Mys/WoHS?
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
1. According to Sovereign Press, a spellcaster cannot use both ambient magic (sorcery and mysticism) and focused magic (clerical magic and High Sorcery) at the same time. The idea here is that they are completely different types of energies.
Isn't there at least one exception to this, in the form of Cleric of Branchalla / Bard multiclass combinations? Such a character would be wielding both ambient and focused magic.
On a side-note, I know that there's also been speculation that the infamous mage Galan Dracos, from the time of the Third Dragon War, was some kind of weird renegade wizard / wild sorcerer gestalt or multiclass combination.
Originally posted by marius4
However, is there a clause missing or does this rule truly mean no criss-crossing (no Clr/Sor, Mys/Wiz4, Mys/WoHS)? The only multiclass options are Clr/Wiz4 and Mys/Sor?
Well see, the problem there is that you're going against your own beliefs. Sorcery and Mysticism comes with in, you have faith in yourself and nothing else, whereas High Sorcery and Clerical Magic comes from your complete faith in the Gods delivering what you need. Trying to do both would spread your faith too thin.
There is something in the DLCS about this.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
However, you can have a cleric multiclass with a renegade mage, as he's using magic outside the Orders of High Sorcery and has not pledged himself to any of the deities of magic.
With regards to the cleric / renegade wizard multiclass, wouldn't certain deities deny divine spells to such a character, as a favour to their pantheon's god of magic, and to uphold the divinely-ordained order of magic on Ansalon? Obviously chaotic deities like Zeboim, Hiddukel, Sirrion and Branchalla wouldn't give a fig about the Wizards of High Sorcery or the Moon Gods getting upset, and of course Takhisis lets almost anything slide with her darling clerics, but would, for example, Paladine, Mishakal, and Kiri-Jolith offend their son / little brother Solinari by accepting good-aligned cleric / renegades in their Churches?
Please note that I’ll present Sovereign Press’ stance on things as well as my own, which differs slightly (and this is with all due respect to the fine folks at Sovereign Press).
Originally posted by marius4
[b] However, is there a clause missing or does this rule truly mean no criss-crossing (no Clr/Sor, Mys/Wiz4, Mys/WoHS)? The only multiclass options are Clr/Wiz4 and Mys/Sor?
According to Sovereign Press, you can’t be both a focused and ambient spellcaster. Basically, you would be tapping into two different types of energy sources. A person should only be able to tap into either focused or ambient at one time, but not both.
That’s Sovereign Press’ official stance. Now, my own personal view is to follow the patron deity rule, meaning no more than one patron deity per character.
What about Clr/Brd for Branchala? And if allowable through magic criss-crossing, would there be a "patron" problem with Mys/WoHS?
There’s no problem with conflicting patrons. The problem here, though, would be the dedication to magic. A WoHS must be fully dedicated to his magic. I feel like they should have multi-class restrictions ala the paladin and monk, so that they can only multi-class with other arcane spellcasting classes that tap into the power of High Sorcery once they take the Wizard of High Sorcery prestige class. A renegade, of course, would be immune to this rule.
For example, let’s say you have Dunbar Mastermate. He may have very well had mariner levels at one point, but once he became a WoHS, he would gain no more mariner levels. He might take on a prestige class of some sort that focused on sea magic, as that would still use the power of High Sorcery.
Originally posted by Twilight Herald
Isn't there at least one exception to this, in the form of Cleric of Branchalla / Bard multiclass combinations? Such a character would be wielding both ambient and focused magic.
According to Sovereign Press’ stance, this combination would not be allowed. Chances are, some clerics of Branchala may have ranks in Perform skills, or have taken a divine prestige class version of the bard class.
Personally, I’d allow it as it doesn’t violate the patron deity rule, and it makes logical sense.
On a side-note, I know that there's also been speculation that the infamous mage Galan Dracos, from the time of the Third Dragon War, was some kind of weird renegade wizard / wild sorcerer gestalt or multiclass combination.
I asked Richard Knaak about this once, and Knaak feels that (in the modern light of magic) Dracos may have very well been tapping into the power of sorcery as well as High Sorcery (as a renegade). If Chaos helps to fuel his power, the connection makes sense. He would then be an exception to the rule.
However, such a multiclass combination would actually slow his progress as a spellcaster, which I can’t see for one of the most powerful mages in Krynn’s history. I would guess that Dracos has a single spell progression, and that chaos (the building blocks of the universe, not the deity) boosts his power. Perhaps he taps into both types of arcane magic, perhaps not.
Originally posted by Twilight Herald
With regards to the cleric / renegade wizard multiclass, wouldn't certain deities deny divine spells to such a character, as a favour to their pantheon's god of magic, and to uphold the divinely-ordained order of magic on Ansalon? Obviously chaotic deities like Zeboim, Hiddukel, Sirrion and Branchalla wouldn't give a fig about the Wizards of High Sorcery or the Moon Gods getting upset, and of course Takhisis lets almost anything slide with her darling clerics, but would, for example, Paladine, Mishakal, and Kiri-Jolith offend their son / little brother Solinari by accepting good-aligned cleric / renegades in their Churches?
They could easily offend Solinari as well by interfering in what is his domain. Plus, remember, there’s free will.
I would say that most renegade/clerics would be evil, and probably servants of Takhisis.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
I asked Richard Knaak about this once, and Knaak feels that (in the modern light of magic) Dracos may have very well been tapping into the power of sorcery as well as High Sorcery (as a renegade). If Chaos helps to fuel his power, the connection makes sense. He would then be an exception to the rule.
However, such a multiclass combination would actually slow his progress as a spellcaster, which I can’t see for one of the most powerful mages in Krynn’s history.
It needn't necessarily have slowed his wizard progression, Dracos may have just used the ( supposedly vast ) power of the emerald sphere to grant himself Unearthed Arcana -style gestalt levels in the Sorcerer class, on the cheap. He seemed to have a liking for short-cuts to greater magical power, after all, and the emerald sphere must have been an artefact of extraordinary potency.
THANKS for all the info!
As for the Dragonlance-y-ness of that, it's pretty much right out.
The following multiclasses are cool, assuming a non-renegade wizard:
Mystic / Sorcerer
Druid / Cleric
Ranger / Druid
Ranger / Cleric
Bard / Sorcerer
Bard / Mystic
Now, allowing renegade wizards into the bunch, we get the following list:
Mystic / Sorcerer
Druid / Cleric
Ranger / Druid
Ranger / Cleric
Bard / Sorcerer
Bard / Mystic
Wizard / Cleric
Wizard / Ranger
Wizard / Druid (Whatshisname the Green)
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That's just my view, so far.
-TRRW
Originally posted by TheRedRobedWizard
Technically, a Sorcerer could concievably take the WoHS prestige class... if they took the Arcane Preparation feat.
As for the Dragonlance-y-ness of that, it's pretty much right out.
Yeah, I’m not a big fan of that feat in regards to Dragonlance. Spell preparation is the mechanical dividing line between ambient and focused spellcasters.
Theoretically, a sorcerer could take that feat with the idea that they had an epiphany of sorts and draw their power from the moons/gods of magic. If a person wanted to use this option for a “High Sorcerer”, then that would make for a somewhat unique character concept. I’m not sure how the WoHS would view such a character.
I don’t really recommend this route, but it is available for those who wish to take it.