Just created this thread to discuss epic spells, how they relate / interact with psionic enchantments and so forth.
My 0.02c is thus.... maybe epic spells on Darksun require a PP expenditure? (thus limiting them to either advanced beings, or exceptionally powerful mages with psionic training)
thoughts?
Originally posted by Jaanos
Hi everyone,
Just created this thread to discuss epic spells, how they relate / interact with psionic enchantments and so forth.
My 0.02c is thus.... maybe epic spells on Darksun require a PP expenditure? (thus limiting them to either advanced beings, or exceptionally powerful mages with psionic training)
thoughts?
Uh, that creates a problem and breaks things since epic spell casting/manifesting is avaialble to anyone with the appropriate feat.
They shouldn't require a PP expenditure and they shouldn't be dumbed down and just left as is within the epic handbook.
Epic spells and psionic enchantments are not the same thing.
"focusing immense magical energy through the sharp focus on a psionic lens, the casters mind"
I suppose the temptation is to say 'hey, epic spell rules exist, just leave it be' but i don't think that would be doing justice to the psionic enchantments.
OK - how about this - burning PP at a fixed ratio to XP required to cast some epic spells, to reflect that ability of creatures that can cast psionic enchantments to cast 'epic' type echantments without tapping the same resource (ie XP)?
Nyt, and broad framework you'd like to see for psionic enchantments?
If you want psionic enchantments, fine, but don't make them epic spells and then try to change said rules for epic spells, it doesn't work that way.
If you want to say casting epic spell A, then adding an amount of PP X, then allows me to do Y, then that's fine, whether Y = longer duration, greater range, etc.
But don't go eliminating epic spells/psionics for everyone and then turning them into psionic enchantments that only a select few can take, just create a new mechanic for the psionic enchantments portion of it.
That simple. :D
(I know, you didn't say this, I'm trying to head it off before it comes to that).
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
And don't be making it be something where a person needs epic spellcasting and epic manifesting, then to have psionic enchantments, which is nothing more than blending the two - that's a waste. I'd say anyone with both *can* blend the two anyway. Adding another feat for the sake of doing that is one extra, unnecessary feat in the system.
(I know, you didn't say this, I'm trying to head it off before it comes to that).
Agreed.
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
Ok, I guess you don't get it.
If you want psionic enchantments, fine, but don't make them epic spells and then try to change said rules for epic spells, it doesn't work that way.
If you want to say casting epic spell A, then adding an amount of PP X, then allows me to do Y, then that's fine, whether Y = longer duration, greater range, etc.
But don't go eliminating epic spells/psionics for everyone and then turning them into psionic enchantments that only a select few can take, just create a new mechanic for the psionic enchantments portion of it.
That simple. :D
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
And don't be making it be something where a person needs epic spellcasting and epic manifesting, then to have psionic enchantments, which is nothing more than blending the two - that's a waste. I'd say anyone with both *can* blend the two anyway. Adding another feat for the sake of doing that is one extra, unnecessary feat in the system.
(I know, you didn't say this, I'm trying to head it off before it comes to that).
Originally posted by Jaanos
You mis-understood me evidently - i'm not saying epic spells = psionic enchantments, what i WAS suggesting is that creatures that CAN cast psionic enchanctments MAY be able to sub certain elements of epic spells with PP, i mean, if you can cast a psionic enchantment, you can cast an epic spell, i would think. Sorry if you mis-understood me...
I understand now, but I think that's a bit overpowered.
PPs should augment the spell, not the other way around.
Would the fireball do more damage? would the seer glean more information?
I know it's a narrow feild of vision on the whole psionic enchantments, but i thought if we kick around idea's based on well know spells, we cold get a feel for how the overall proces might work a little faster....
5 PP per extrra round of duration.
10 PP per extra die of damage.
Etc
Originally posted by Jaanos
Yeah, i agree with this. I think you should be able to manifest 9th level, cast 9th level - then can blend the two - or do you see people being able to access psionic enchantments at a lower level?
Umm, err, you missed my point. here's my post:
And don't be making it be something where a person needs epic spellcasting and epic manifesting, then to have psionic enchantments, which is nothing more than blending the two - that's a waste. I'd say anyone with both *can* blend the two anyway. Adding another feat for the sake of doing that is one extra, unnecessary feat in the system.
(I know, you didn't say this, I'm trying to head it off before it comes to that).
I never said I *wanted* both to be required. I personally am against forcing 9th level spells and 9th level powers down people's throats. For reasons I've posted far too many times, but I'll do it again. This effectively CRIPPLES a character, in d20 multiclassing rules. Making someone develop both as a psionic character and a spellcaster, to equal levels, makes that character relatively ineffective against almost every other character his level that did not do such a thing. Seriously, he'd be as effective as a screen door on a submarine. If you don't believe me - test my theory. Prove me wrong. Heck, multiclassing like that prior to Epic Levels does just that - and cripples the character. The price of not being focused on a single class is far worse for a spellcaster or manifester than it is for any other class in the game. to the point that my entire roleplaying group had decided - if they want to ever multiclass - they don't choose a spellcaster or a manifester. If they don't care about multiclassing, then those classes are available to them.
So, after a lot of playtesting, and seeing the effects in a couple characters in a campaign I had that ran from low-level to epic levels with nothing but spellcasters, I was convinced, beyond a shadow of a doubt that it was folly. And that it would make no sense that the most powerful beings on Athas would have crippled themselves this way, or that the most powerful transformational processes would require such a devestating effect to the character. So, working from that basis, I knew one of the two has to decrease - why, because if not, the character's basically a waste of flesh in the world, comparitively speaking to others his level. Compared to those lower than him (like too low for him to gert XP from), he's godlike, but then again, so is everyone else his level compared to them. My decision for which to reduce came from reviewing the Dark Sun "fluff" (novels, etc), to gain insight. And what I found was this - the Sorcerer-Kings, arguably the best examples, and most readily made examples of Advanced Beings, are primarily mentioned and described with their Spellcasing Power, where their Psionic Power is secondary. Heck, even the term "Dragon Magic" isn't "Dragon Powers", it's Magic. so, I keep the magic requirement, and reduce the psionic one.
Now, how much to lower the Psionic requirement by.... I started flipping through books, and found - the Psychic Warrior. This is a class that [i]did not ever exist in 2e at all[/i[, but now does in 3e/3.5e. And, the Psychic WEarrior can manifest powers - to 6th level. Well, isn't that convienient.... basically, 2/3 of the level that a Psion (and now Wilder) can manifest. Well.... requiring 6th level powers provides an interesting effect. For Psions, this meand level 11, for Wilders, it means level 12, and for Psychic Warriors, it means level 16. there's an extra 5 levels that a Psychic Warrior would need to start the process over a Psion, and 4 over a Wilder.. so, the Psychic Warrior has to effectively work harder at becoming an Advanced Being, but it is within the realms of possibility.
Now, this same standard is applied to ALL advanced beings, and then each has Psionic Enchantments - which is an independent ability from Epic Spellcasting - and augments ALL their possible spells and powers.
Originally posted by Jaanos
Y- or do you see people being able to access psionic enchantments at a lower level?
to which you have answered YES....
So now, the point i was trying to get at:
* How much psionic power is needed to enhance a spell, thus becoming a psionic enchantment? Can the reverse be applied, and thus could a powerful psion use spell energy to enhance a power? i'm open to it being at a lower level, as my post indicated - so what i was trying to do was quantify what level people thought appropiate.
Personally, i see it probably being beyond a psi-warriors ability.... but i am open to the idea that they could work 'harder' at it... maybe 7th level maifestation is required? i also think that perhaps we have the opportunity to make psionic enchantments something new-ish, not just 10th level spells per see, but a whole system where people who have learnt to mix psionics and magic can enhance lower-level spells (and / or powers?) after they have learnt how to cast psionic enchantments....
hope that clears things up a little
Originally posted by Jaanos
OK, Cool, let's start with that. What happens to a fire-ball spell, cast by an advanced being who pumps.... 25pp into it? (that's one way of looking at it) or a Psion (Seer) who using magical force to enhance, say a commune spell?
Would the fireball do more damage? would the seer glean more information?
I know it's a narrow feild of vision on the whole psionic enchantments, but i thought if we kick around idea's based on well know spells, we cold get a feel for how the overall proces might work a little faster....
Ok, here's my thought.
Psionic Enchantments are the ability to augment spells with psionic abilities. to do this, the Advanced Being must spend a number of power points necessary for the level of the spell. However, this is only for a spell that has the minimum damage effect for a spellcaster of the advanced being's spellcasting class. For each level increase to damage, the advanced being must spend an additional power point, up to the maximum damage possible for the being to cast. For every 2 points spent above that, the Advanced Being can increase one level-scaled benefit of the spell above it's normal maximum - for example, the number of dice damage that a fireball can do, up to the maximum number of power points the manifeter is allowed (equal to his manifester level).
For example:
An Advanced Being (wizard/psion) who wishes to cast a psionically-enchanted fireball spell. The character must spend 5 power points, because it is a 3rd level spell. The character could first cast this spell at 5th level, and thus do 5d6 damage. However, the Advanced Being now does 10d6 damage (the normal maximum for the spell), and thus spends an additional 5 Power Points to get the damage dice raised to maximum for the psionic enchantment.
This now makes the spell both magical and psionic, thus creatures with only Spell Resistance or Power Resistance no longer can resist this effect, and those that have both, use the lower of the two Resistance values.
Now, let's say he wants a nastier version of a fireball. So he expends an additional 2 Power Points to raise the fireball one more d6 of damage, making it a 11d6 fireball. He can do this up to his manifester level (which I'll say is a 22nd level manifester), and throws another 10 points at it, raising the effect to becoming a 16d6 fireball. Once this is done, any metamagic effect applied to the spell still works as normal. So a Maximized Fireball like this would do 96 points of fire damage.
He spends 2 points to raise it - one point tfor the psionic part, and another point to substitute for the magical part.
Another example - another Advanced Being (cleric/wilder) decides to cast Cure Critical Wounds as a psionic enchantment. This is a level 4 spell, so it costs him an initial 7 points. He is able to cast the maximum effect of this (4d8+20). This, however, is not damage that has increased per level, but healing - so no extra points were required for this psionic enchantment. He is a level 30 manifester, and dumps every point he can into the effect - an additional 22 possible points (with one to spare, can't use the oddball point on this), or +11 is added to the healing, making the effect do 4d8+31 points healed.
Now, if he was using Mass Cure Critical Wounds, this would cost him 15 points from the beginning (level 8 spell), and if he was a level 35 spellcaster, he wouldn't get the maximum level, but a bit under, only doing 4d8+35 Now, he can heal 35 creatures with this (1 target per level, no 2 can be 30 ft. apart. And he has a range of 40 ft. He spends an additional 8 points to boost the spell to become 4d8+39 points of damage (and now is using 23 points), then 2 more points to get 1 extra target (now 36 targets), and 4 more points to increase the range to 50 ft. This now uses his cap of 29 points in all.
What do you think? I'm borrowing the damage dice boosting requirement thing from the spell point system in Unearthed Arcana - because I feel it works here.
Note - the costs do tend to make Psychic Warriors be at a disadvantage, with their lower number of available power points. wilders and Psions are at a much better advantage.
Hmm.... OK, scaled system for lower spells invovling damage, plus inital cost, as you outlined. Nice. Neat. Very nice.
OH MY GOD - WE ARE AGREEING!
Now, how about non-damage spells, like commune?
Originally posted by Jaanos
Nice one Xlor, very, very good... and you know what... the lack of PP may just be the balancing factor needed in the whole psionic enchantment / who gets it thingo....
Hmm.... OK, scaled system for lower spells invovling damage, plus inital cost, as you outlined. Nice. Neat. Very nice.
OH MY GOD - WE ARE AGREEING!
Now, how about non-damage spells, like commune?
already covered, look at my examples for cure critical wounds and mass cure critical wounds. Basically, with commune, for every 2 points you spend over the initial, you can extend the duration 1 minute, and that's it. Commune's not the best spell to use this ability with... And honestly, it probably would be a waste of energy to do it anyway. Not everything needs to be used as a psionic enchantment.
It costs the normal power points applicable to the level of the spell, based on how much it costs to manifest a power the same level (you know, 1 point for 1st, 3 points for 2nd, etc), for damage-based effects that go up each level, you pay an additional power point per level of damage increase up to your maximum damage possible. After that, any, and I mean any level-based part of the spell can be increased by a +1 level for an additional 2 power points: damage, duration, healing power, range, target, whatever. Each is paid individually, and the character has the normal power point limits that apply. After this is done, then the spell has metamagic feats added *as normal*, as if the newly augmented spell was the original spell, for all metamagic effects. So, an augmented psionic enchantment of an Enlarged spell, would double the newly augmented range, not double the range and then apply the augmentation. an augmented Maximized spell does the maximum damage effects from the augmentation completely, don't augment afterwards (no 60 + 6d6 psionic enhanced fireball, like I described above). This keeps it neat and clean, and makes metamagic more useful.
Originally posted by Jaanos
Nah, forget duration and stuff - that's another damage/type situation. The depth of it... like... knowing if the creature is lying, stuff like that. Way i see it, if you psionically enhance a information gathering type spell, the psionic component would allow more accurate perceptions, or deeper perceptions... how you quantify that type of thing... is an interesting challenge...
You are now trying to define rules for something that there is no clearly defined rules for. That's generrally bad form for d20. This is why Athas.org can't use roleplaying concepts to balance the classes - it has to be gamesystem mechanic to gamesystem mechanic. I'd say that for those spells, Psionic Enchantments don't really do anything, of any real value anyway. cast the higher-powered spell instead, or better yet, leave your DM alone! It's horrible to not only try to figure out what's being asked, but then to return an answer to the question as is outlined in the spell... grr.... I hate dealing with those spells. :P
However, I'd say don't overcomplicate the system, just to figure out some mechanic for how to augment something like commune - because then each and every other spell of that nature would have to probably be reviewed in a case-by-case basis, and now we would really, truely be wasting energy on something that could be applied to a better use of our time.
Multiclassing is not as severe in Athas due to the relative rarity of high SR creatures. There are no drow or mindflayers, and very few outsiders. Dragons are obviously a special case and that covers most creatures with heavy SR.
Originally posted by Enslaved DM
I have to disagree. It seems clear to me that the kind of spells you can cast the psionic enchantments are the same as epic spells. So I have changed the requirements of the Epic Spellcasting to require the ability to manifest 7th level psionics. This allows characters multi-classing with cerebromancer or similar prestige classes fairly easy access to it.
Multiclassing is not as severe in Athas due to the relative rarity of high SR creatures. There are no drow or mindflayers, and very few outsiders. Dragons are obviously a special case and that covers most creatures with heavy SR.
What we're discussing is a new definition of Psionic Enchantments - ditch the spells from 2e, which are actually not any more powerful than 9th level spells in 3e (many of them), and work towards a different approach to psionic enchantments all together. We on the same sheet of music now? Thank-you. The newer definition of Psionic Enchantments would be - rather than Epic Spells (which Epic Spellcasting should not be strictly the province of Advanced Beings anyway, as that takes away from the Epic Level Handbook, and restricts the freedon of choice for individual DM's, a method ov combining psionics and magic together. This way, it's something new, different, and doesn't force all DM's to have to play by the rule of "only Advanced Beings could ever use Epic Spellcasting/Manifesting".
Actually, there's still quite a few high SR creatures. Try flipping through Terrors of Athas sometime, or, looking at the list of approved Dark Sun creatures recommended by Athas.org from the MM, MM2, Book of Fiends, MotP, etc. Even the Epic Level Handbook has a few creatures that could fir for Athas. And, I hate to break it to ya, butr there's actually a large selection of them - High SR's not only the province of drow, mind flayers (which, relatively, have LOW DR's, but anyway), or Advanced Beings.
Multiclassing is actually quite popular with anyone who wishes to become a Dragon, Avangion, Cleric-Elemental or Spirit of the Land. You'd be surprised how popular it is when you need both psionics and magic to do these things.
So, a Psion/Wizard Advanced Being wants to manifest a Crystal Shard as a psionic enchantment - Crystal Shard is a 1st level power, so he uses oe of his 1st level slots (which effectively wastes the spell that had been prepared in that slot). The power now is treated as psionic and magical, and thus creatures with only SR or PR effectively are defenseless against this, and if they have both, you use the lowest of the two Resistances (if applicable). Now, to augment the new Crystal Shard psionic enchantment, it costs 2 power points (1 power point normal + 1 for a psionic enchantment) per increase, and he wants to rase it rto maximum. If he's a level 17 manifester, then he can raise it an extra 8d6 damage, making the psionic enchantment end up doing 9d6 damage.
Metapsionics can be added while preparing an augmentation of the psionic enchantment, and they have their normal power point cost added, with no extra power point cost added. Note - this allows for things like spells being able to use the "Burrowing Power", or "Split Psionic Ray" effect, since a psionic enchantment is both power and a spell.
Metamagics can be used for psionic enchantments. Unless the spellcaster is using a prepared spell and then boosting it with psionic power points, treat the metamagic improvements as if they were for spontaneous spellcasting - which means that the casting time extends to one full round - rendering quicken spell (or power) inneffective, among other things. Metamagic feat effects are applied after all psionic effects have been done, to include metapsionics.
No duplication of effects from metamagic and petapsionics are allowed. So, no using Metapsionics to Maximize Power, then Metamagics to Maximize Spell - as this would be rather pointless. But, you could Empower Power with metapsionics, and calculate the extra dice, and then Maximize Spell, to maximize everything, including the Empowered Power dice from the Metapsionic feat. This is how to get around the normal rules for Empowered & Maximized. Note that reversing the process doesn't yield the same results. Maximize Power and then Empower Spell would only grant you a Maximized Power effect - because as far as Empowee Spell is concerned - there are no dice at that point to add half of the number of dice on top of it - everything's already been maximized at that point.
Does this make sense?
I recognize that lots of DS players multiclass. That's why I mention SR in the first place.
I must maintain my point that Psionic Enhancements take the place of Epic Spellcasting in Athas. Yes, a lot of the ones presented in Dragon Kings are unimpressive, but the idea is clearly the same as with Epic Spells. Extraordinary powerful spells, taking extended time to cast, which only the most adept of casters can use.
I should clarify one point. I don't require that it's users become advanced beings. Rajaat who was preserver, defiler, and psionicist chose not to make the transformation because it wasn't something he wanted. Obviously, this last bit is an imposition of mine, but considering how unnecessarily rigid 2nde was I feel that it is appropriate. I feel that Dragons are made either by Rajaat or powerful defilers looking for more power and/or immortalilty and avignions by preservers looking to redeem the land.
I must maintain my point that Psionic Enhancements take the place of Epic Spellcasting in Athas. Yes, a lot of the ones presented in Dragon Kings are unimpressive, but the idea is clearly the same as with Epic Spells. Extraordinary powerful spells, taking extended time to cast, which only the most adept of casters can use.
And I must maintain my point that Psionic Enchantments should add to, and not take away from the mechanics found in the Epic Level Handbook. Making them a revision of Epic Spellcasting takes away from the Epic Level Handbook. And - I hate to break it to you, but the Epic Level Handbook's Epic Spellcasting is significantly broken. Here's an example:
Hellball - does 10d6 damage of each of the 5 different main energy types. Also does 10d6 damage to the caster (unsaveable). So basically, it's like casting 5 fireballs, 1 of each energy, simultaneously, and taking unsaveabl/resistable damage equivalent to a fireball yourself. sounds cool. But, let's look at the reality of it:
Spellcraft DC of 90. Ok, now, you CAN actually make this with a natural 20 roll, if you have a Spellcraft skill of 70. To get a spellcraft bonus THAT HIGH, with ranks, you'd need to be.... 67. Now, there's also the ability score to contend with, so.... let's pretend that the wizard doing this had an intelligence of 18 when he started, and put every single point he got bonus every 4 levels into Int exclusively. So by level 20, that makes his Int now 23, by level 56 it's 32, which is a bonus of +11. So, the character would need 56 levels to reach the Spellcraft DC of 90, with a 5% chance of success. This is barrring any equipment bonuses which could lower this to...... maybe level 30 or so, but still... let's keep working with this for now.
So, level 56, you get the *chance* to learn the Hellball spell. You also need to use up 810,000 gp, 32,400 XP and take 17 days to develop the spell.
Now, you prepare to cast your impressive "hellball" spell. Oh, wait, most epic creatures are immune to at least one if not more energy types, with the average immunity being 2-3 energy types, so you actually are only doing 20-30d6 (25d6, based on average) damage, rather than 50d6 damage to them, PLUS, you take 10d6 damage that you can't avoid (and use 200XP, which at this point, is NO BIG DEAL, honestly) Now, the average of 25d6 is going to give you a result of somewhere around 75 points of damage, while you take 30 points of damage.
Ok, so let's look at another spell. Meteor Swarm. With the Feats: Improved Spell Capacity (x3), Improved Metamagic (x4), Energy Substitution. The 7 epic feats would necessitate a level of 42 (as opposed to 56), and maximizes then doubles the spell effects for the spell it is applied to. All four sphere each do 6d6 damage to a 40' radius area (as opposed to the 10' radius for hellball), doing a total of 24d6 damage. Plus, each does an additional 2d6bludgeoning damage to whatever they strike (or 8d6 total). Maximized, this is 144 damage in the area, and 48 damage to the target they hit. Doubled this is 288 damage to everything in a 40' radius, and 96 damage to the target they hit on top of that.
Now... at level 42, a wizard who goes this route does significantly more damage 288 damage (energy being substituted for the most effective type) to everyhting in a 40' radius, with an extra 96 damage to the target struck) to their intended targets than one using hellball (average of 75 points, which will happn a HELL of a lot more frequently than the maximum result, due to the sheer number of dice rolled), and saves themselves from taking 30 damage as well. Not to mention the fact they can do this 14 levels earlier. To quote one of my players, who also is a fellow DM, "Why the hell would I use Epic Spells?"
Originally posted by Jaanos
You mis-understood me evidently - i'm not saying epic spells = psionic enchantments, what i WAS suggesting is that creatures that CAN cast psionic enchanctments MAY be able to sub certain elements of epic spells with PP, i mean, if you can cast a psionic enchantment, you can cast an epic spell, i would think. Sorry if you mis-understood me...
Hm what about this idea taken from The Library of Urik website (not as a feat, which would be two things for the same, just as an add-on for athanasian epic spellcasting.
I am using that idea for my campaign and my PCs are already dreading Dregoth's high power epic-spells which he is now able to use by burning power points to lower the Spellcraft DC ... ;)