It is stated their home was originally a lush archepeliago, a world of endless water and fertile isles...perhaps...The Blue Age? Are these survivors from the Blue Age of Athas, or criminals banished
to this terrible place for unspeakable crimes in forgotten days?
The Black is considered to be the source of shadow-based magic on Athas. Now, consider what shadow spells are: they take unreal substance and make it real, or semi-real. It underlies illusion magic, and as illusionists gain power, they learn to tap into this source to make their creations more and more "real."
Shadow is shaped by powerful illusionists and wizards, even psionicists -- how far can that shaping go? Why is it that shadow-stuff, the Black, can be used and shaped in this way?
Is the Black a dark reflection of the mind? A pyschic imprint of all subconcious thought underlying the fabric of reality? A metaphysical "shadow" of the physical world? Or is it more than that?
Is the Black -- a shadow-realm -- the empty void from which Athas was originally formed, from which all else emerged?
After all, that's what happens with shadow magic -- shadow exists as illusion, a between state, a reflection, an idea, and with enough strength or energy, through magic, it becomes real. The illusion cast by the wizard is given more "reality" through his greater control of shadow.
Metaphysically, it makes sense -- most occult disciplines talk about how out of formless chaos or empty nothingness, order arose, or how the sentience or words of a divine being shaped into being all out of the nothingness of before. Which sounds almost like divine-scale shadow magic.
But the Black doesn't necessarily have to be this. That's just one suggestion of "what it is" -- the other two hold intriguing possibilities themselves.
Regardless of what it is, we know or can deduce "what it does," so given the Hollow and given the Maenads, here's what I'm wondering: was the Black used as a sort of extradimensional prison? Because you could create "worlds" there? Because with enough power you could shape the shadow-stuff as you desire, into a semblance of your imaginings? Thus a powerful wizard or psionicist could create "holding places" within the black, places you could drop things -- or people -- and forget them, drop them into worlds created specifically to hold them, with rules all their own, shaped only by the will of the wizard?
After all, that's exactly what the Hollow is: a planar prison, a demiplane floating in the Black, an empty place lost amid the deepest shadows of Athas.
Obviously the Sorcerer-Kings based their decision to make the Hollow, to make Rajaat's prison out of the Black, on something they knew about the Black...
It also makes you wonder: what else did the Sorcerer-Kings hide there?
Is the Black full of demiplanes? Like the Hollow? Like the Maenad's prison? And avangions vanish into places unknown during their metamorphasis...perhaps it is these demi-planes, these shaped shadow-realms, in the Black?
I also like this idea because I see no real reason to adhere to the established cosmology of other setting's planar systems, merely to make Athas "compatible" with those other worlds (isn't that the problem with Paizo's treatment of DarkSun? That it tried to make Athas compatible and thus sacrificed its flavor?)
Fiends and githyanki don't need to come from the Lower or Astral planes...perhaps these creatures come both come from demiplanes found in the Black.
Perhaps the Black and the Elemental plane of Fire "intersect" after some fashion, or the Black has a reflection of that plane, and from this come fiends: dark and terrible creatures of smoke and shadow, obsidian and flame.
Perhaps the Githyanki are creatures born of a shadow-plane intersected with Air -- terrible creatures of an empty, timeless void, from a place that is a dark reflection of the sky, and they who are dark reflections of the waif-like air elementals.
Perhaps the githyanki's home is a psychic impression of the worst feelings that come with those of the feeling of immensity when one looks up into the encompassing nothingness that is the sky, and they are born of sparks of that terrible emptiness, smallness, and eternity.
And perhaps fiends are the black thoughts of the ages, echoes of the worst thoughts and emotions from throughout time, subconsciously shadow-shaped by the minds of millions of sentients throughout time...or are the fiends created by the dark imaginings of the summoning wizards? They expect terrible creatures which will fulfill their desires when summoned, and so that is what comes from the nether-places -- from empty abyss that is the deep Black.
I'd imagine the Black "close" to Athas is a real "shadow realm" -- perhaps a nightmare of Athas -- all the thoughts and terrors psychically shaped by generations to reflect their world, their perception of it. It's a mirror of the minds of the people, a dark silhouette of the world.
Deeper into the Black are more distored places that barely resemble Athas, and deeper still are empty, black, unshaped places that are nothing but thick, suffocating shadow, where you could make anything you imagine, except it would probably kill you first, where whatever you imagine is made "real" -- and thus no place for those without perfect mental control and inner peace, for it would be filled with nightmares and dangers created by the subconscious from moment to moment in everyone's mind, and terror always builds upon itself.
And Dregoth's mirror wouldn't lead to "outer" planes...it's like a radar that can find these demiplanes floating in the shadows of the Black, since mirrors reflect light ever more brightly in the darkness.
The further away you get from athas, past the unshaped void of nothing, there is a place where all thaughts are given form and a life of their own. These evolve solwly as their own worlds and multiverses.
But what about the grey, a plug in the astral plane? what if the astral plane also exists within the balck? And ther planes exist within the astral? and the grey exists within the astral? and athas exists within the grey, as does the black. even tough each reality is potenitlly infinite in size. You could have a twisting of the D&D cosmologies so that each one functions within it's self and yet meshes together in an unconcievebly complex infinite loop.
Sort of like the theory that if you start at point A in our universe and go in a straight line away from point A, you would eventually end up back at point A because (the theory is) space 'curves' in a way that we could not percieve.
Or perhaps all other planes simpley exist within the black or 'Athas's great subconious'. A pane where magic is the norm was once the unemembered dream of a preserver. Anything could exist within this imagined place… assuming you survive to get there…
Touches a little on what Kam and I have been working on.
Will definately ponder this more for my Athas cosmology.
And if the majority of us like the possibilities of this thread, the better since it would help explaina whole chapter of my up-coming story.(jihun-nish's)
!edited!
Originally posted by The People
Who is Raven?
- Rev. Ravenscrye Grey Daegmorgan
Originally posted by The People
Who is Raven?
OOps! Sorry. Dont know where my head was at when I wrote that name. I've re-edited my last post.
*Reaches behind the chair and dusts off a sandwich made of souls and offers it to Jihun-Nish*
It's definitely a better idea that demons and other things come from here, and Dregoth's mirror shows/connects to places there instead of the standard D&D multiverse. Closed cosmology is the preferred way for Athas IMHO.
1) The Black was made by Nibenay (and probably other SKs helping) to contain the Hollow as a sort of buffer-zone to keep would be supporters away from the big guy. After all, if the place is so horrible that undead stay away...
2) The Black is the remains of the Brown Tide, concentrated and tossed into the Gray. I have my reasons for going this route, but it has a lot to do with the semi-alternate history I dreamed up for Athas.
Glad to see some interest in the ideas I'd expressed!
Some comments: my thoughts about the Black are not that it is the subconscious of Athas, per se, but rather that it is (in a way) like a blank wall. That is, a blank wall has nothing on it, until you pass between the wall and a light source, making shadows appear.
Please forgive the crude metaphor, but I think it works for purposes of understanding this specific idea.
In this case, the Black responds to the subconscious thoughts of Athas' denizens only because the subconcious is "casting a shadow on the wall" -- where the wall is the Black, and the subconcious is the object casting the shadow/blocking the light.
The shadows would then be the absence of something else (whatever light might be). I know, someone's going to ask: what's casting the "light"? Nothing: don't worry about it. It's just an illustrative example.
So, the Black doesn't necessarily represent the subconscious, or reflect it because of some inter-relationship it has with it, as much as it reveals the interaction of a seperate, external object and an energy (object and light -- the depiction of their interaction is a shadow on another surface).
The important thing to remember is that the Black is not the shadow. It's the wall. The shadow is just what "happens to" the Black.
As to magic, you can make anything on the wall by using light, and some object(s) to cast a shadow. The shadow might not even necessarily look like the object casting it (think of making shadow-figures on the walls in a dark room by using your hands -- a horse, a butterfly, a wolf, etc).
Magic is brighter light...brighter light is more defined shadow. Regardless, I'm getting far too esoteric now, and the utility of the example was not to explain everything about the Black, just the "relationship" between the subconscious and the Black, and how they aren't the same thing.
Ultimately, I put my ideas forwards as I agree with the statement that Athas should have a closed, seperate cosmology.
The explanation of the Force in SW by Yoda is a classic, the whole thing went down with including midi-chlorian numbers and such things. Mystic things should be mystic, right?
Midichlorians
--the Athasian Beastlands was, by all accounts, terrifying beyond belief NB
It has been said that the Black is what seperates everything which exists from everything which doesn't. I read that to mean Existence and Nothingness; though it could easily mean a seperation of things that are actual (do exist) from things that are imagined or could be (do not exist). However, the following thoughts are based around the initial reading above.
Now, the Black is a barrier between two things, and as such, it cannot be either of them (or it would be a part of one). If the Black is a barrier between everything and nothing, then the Black cannot be comprised of anything that exists (since that lies on one side of the wall), and it also cannot be comprised of nothing (since that lies on the other).
The Black must be made up of something else: that which could exist. The Black comprises that which could, might, and will exist. Simply put, the Black is possibility and probability, it is not certainity (which would be existance).
It cannot be anything that does actually exist, however. So you won't find mirror images of anything in the Black, only distortions of possibilities.
Let us take Kalak's ziggurat, for example. While it remained unfinished, it cast dozens of shadows into the Black: one might have been set with gargoyles upon the corners, another one without, one might have been incomplete and crumbling after centuries of neglect, another might have red bricks on the second tier, another might have blue, one topped with a small, covered ritual chamber, another without.
These were all possibilities.
Even Kalak himself likely cast shadows into the Black -- his glorious dragon-hood, and a painful failure, or success followed by unexpected savage insanity, and so on.
Like shadows, things in the Black are not true reflections of a real thing, they are warped and distorted silhouettes created by the light cast on the object. Like shadows where a ball can become a tall pillar, a tall man can be short, or his arms and face can elongate grotesquely, the shadow changes depending on the light(s) cast upon it.
But it is more than just that.
The color black has long been associated with psychic powers, specifically those dealing with the future; as such, the Black is like a place of divination, akin to using a reflecting mirror in the dark, or looking into obsidian bowls filled with still water. But the Black doesn't show what will be, only what might be, and it takes a skilled diviner to seperate the one from the other -- this is why divination is not always accurate: one is only staring at shadows cast by the now, at possibilities, not certainities.
The life you think you would lead with the girl you profess to love, the promotion in the templarate you wish you had, what you would do with ultimate power, the terrible thing that was chasing you in your dreams last night...all of this is found in the Black. You find dreams and nightmares, ideas and concepts, adrift in the black, a web of tangled shadows cast from the unconscious minds and physical landscape of Athas.
As well, there needs be no logic to it, because logic is a property of certainities. The strange, bizzare, improbable and impossible all exist in the Black. If it can be concieved of, it exists there. If not, it exists beyond the Black, on the other side of the wall -- in the unreachable place that contains all that does not exist, beyond all that might exist.
I say unreachable because once something is conceived of, it exists, as an idea. It becomes a possibility. It is thus contained within the Black. One cannot conceive of something that does not exist...the minute it is conceived of, it exists.
Likewise, things that really, actually exist cannot be found in the Black. You cannot find the ziggurat Kalak was building in the Black because it exists. It is a real, actual object. You might find the nightmare reflection of it, a horrid place of death, terror and pain, created by the subconscious of the slaves who died or were injured in its construction, but you cannot find something close enough to the actual thing to be it. Once it exists, it exists, and thus cannot be a part of the Black (it has moved onto one side of the barrier).
However, just because something has been conceived of and thus exists in the Black doesn't mean it will be easy to find. It took Andropinis three centuries to locate a gateway back to Athas, and required the maenad's participation, as well. As such, we can assume that there is no actual gate between Athas and the Black, but since Andropinis was in the Black, and could concieve of such a thing existing, he could find it there in the Black and use it: the shadow of his idea.
Now, here's a question: were the maenads real things put into the Black, or were they illusions Andropinis brought with him out of the Black? And how did he use a gate to Athas to get to Athas, being that the gate didn't really exist? Is this where the maenads came in? Somehow their focused desire to escape their prison was usable to Andropinis in making the way back to Athas work?
To further segue, if we take as truth that the Hollow was a creation of the Dragon-Kings to contain Rajaat
The Hollow is nothingness.
What if the Champions were not seeking to contain Rajaat as much as to destroy him? To move him from "existance" to "non-existance"...putting him across the wall. But of course, to make something in the Black, you have to be able to imagine it. As we've already covered, you can't imagine "nothing"...even the concept of nothing is something.
What if one of the Sorcerer-kings put his formidable will power and psionic and magic mastery towards "not conceiving nothingness" in order to use the Black to completely annihilate Rajaat. Even the Sorcerer-kings were not so great that they could make what exists become what doesn't, and the plan backfired, forming the Hollow (ie: "nothing") containing Rajaat. The prison that resulted is unstable, however, because nothing can't exist -- it's a paradox -- and thus requires a great deal of magical life-energy to sustain.
(Actually, that brings up a question I've always had: why didn't they just destroy him? Why keep him around? I mean, seriously, just Disintegrate the bastard. Instead they imprisioned him! Why? What did they still need him for? Something, it seems, some reason they kept Rajaat alive. Of course, if my theory is truth, then they did try to destroy him, and found they couldn't, and imprisionment was the result rather than annihilation...and since they can't destroy him, they have to keep him imprisioned. It's their only option.)
Ok, so who was the Champion that made this sacrifice and tried to imagine nothingness? And what happened to him?
Trying to concieve nothingness -- removing all self-awareness and sensation -- would have been a maddening task. Suppose...it drove him insane? Suppose the Champion who underwent this was Daskinor? He's paranoid, he's insular, he's locked himself away, he's devoted all his efforst to achieving dragonhood.
WHY? The whole quest to do that led him to thinking about the world in new, strange ways -- bizzare and abnormal, illogical ways, and even more, he's scared to death of what he experienced -- so frightened it drove him mad: "Nothing is coming. Nothing is coming to get me. NOTHING!"
His first templars took his pronouncements in his fevered insanity to mean they had to protect the palace and the city, secure it so that nothing and no one could ever reach their king, sealing it off from outsiders. You rarely see Daskinor, he's holed up in his palace, only coming out during brief spells of clarity; otherwise, the templarate pretty much runs everything, and the only reason they don't change the isolationist policies is because its tradition at this point: "The God-king said..." and because after generations of inbreeding, they probably aren't the brightest lot in the world any longer.
He's one of the most powerful wizards and psionicists in the world, and he's completely barking insane. Stop and think about that for a minute. He doesn't know whether he loves his knowledge or hates it, and he fluctuates between these states illogically.
Ok, that's probably enough for right now, I'm starting to drift into ideas that have nothing to do with the Black, specifically.
The planes are laid out like a giant tree, with four roots growing into the elemental planes. The Gray would be the bark around the trunk, which would be the Prime Material with Athas. The black would be a blight upon the tree, while the Hollow a knot in the trunk. The branches lead to the outer planes, but the gray blocks the way there.
Kinda simple, but I like tree setups (I'm a sucker for Norse mythology :D )
Originally posted by greyorm
Ok, that's probably enough for right now, I'm starting to drift into ideas that have nothing to do with the Black, specifically.
/me furiously takes notes
:D
Great stuff Raven.
Always like the nothing thing too, big sucker for Never Ending Story, the first one, the sequels seem to suck big time.
You might find the nightmare reflection of it
I use a little of Birthright's version of the Shadow Realm as a template for the black. It really fits well with some of what you've got there and would really be worth a look into if you haven't already.
Also, I really like the extra level of depth the ideas you have give to Draskinor. That one little nugget could spurn on quite a bit of backstory for the interactions of the SKs (would they respect Draskinor more for what he accomplished, sort of a hero amongst the Champions, with them going so far as to even cover his portion of Borys' levy when Draskinor finally went off the deep end).
Originally posted by greyorm
(Actually, that brings up a question I've always had: why didn't they just destroy him? Why keep him around? I mean, seriously, just Disintegrate the bastard. Instead they imprisioned him! Why? What did they still need him for? Something, it seems, some reason they kept Rajaat alive. Of course, if my theory is truth, then they did try to destroy him, and found they couldn't, and imprisionment was the result rather than annihilation...and since they can't destroy him, they have to keep him imprisioned. It's their only option.)
I guess that you didn't read, or didn't like, RaFoaDK?
Abbey found a reason why the Champions didn't kill him: they didn't succeed*.
I really like the way you tied-in Daskinor's madness to the effort required to manifest this nothingness that is Rajaat's prison. But I also like RaFoaDK's saying that it was the Shadow King, the scholar Champion, who cooked-up the idea and offered it to his fellows after the failed killing of their master.
So in what way could both concepts be linked harmoniously? Galard thought of the prison for years in advance, probably as a means to get rid of a Champion if one day it came to that, while Daskinor did the actual manifesting of the area by concentrating, in concert with the Champions casting the spell.
Do you have any thoughts on the subject?
I still have to say that of all the ink that has been put down concerning the true nature of the Black, yours is the best.
You can imagine Daskinor saying to himself: «I am surrounded by shadows».
* I just had a thought which might help alleviate some problems: in Abbey's explanations of her novel (which can be found on Nyt's site) she says:
"[The Champions] are also linked by blood and other essences to each other and to Rajaat, their father/creator."
"Only Champions, by virtue of their blood-essence bonds, can keep Rajaat imprisoned (no matter what Sadira thinks)."
"Even together (even having consumed Sacha and Wyan's bodies as Hamanu consumed Myron's), the Champions find that they cannot annihilate Rajaat (most likely because that would be suicidal for them). In an inspired move, they put Rajaat where the sun never shines, thereby preserving their own source of power [that power comes from the essences through which they are linked to Rajaat]."
this are some really good ideas that link in nicely with the champions and the history of athasOriginally posted by Pennarin
I guess that you didn't read, or didn't like, RaFoaDK?
Unfortunately, Rise and Fall... is the one (only one, I think) DS novel I haven't read and haven't been able to find anywhere. Thanks for the tips about the information therein! I think your fixes work fine.
I can see Nibenay (the Shadow King...eh?) being the one who researched this property of the Black and expressed the idea, and Daskinor -- perhaps a former student of some philosophy or school of the Way which regarded self as an impediment to being, giving him some understanding and practice of the necesary result -- being the one to attempt to conceive nothing (either by choice or by force).
Here's another thought to add to the above: Rajaat banished Andropinis to the Black...he didn't put him into the Hollow. Why? Maybe he couldn't...
1) The Hollow would vanish without the sustained magic of the Sorcerer-Kings to maintain it (so it wouldn't be much of a punishment to put Andropinis into the Hollow...it would vanish shortly if Rajaat were free).
2) He didn't know how. The only one capable of concieving of and manifesting the Hollow was Daskinor. It's a trick not even Rajaat could do, and besides, it drove the only individual to try it insane.
You can imagine Daskinor saying to himself: «I am surrounded by shadows».
Ooo...I'm getting ideas...Daskinor's lair, in the center of his Palace, is a chamber without shadows. Every surface and crack is lit by magical and psionic power at all times, much of it provided by Daskinor himself, the rest provided by specially groomed slave-psionicists (known as "the Thousand" or "the One Thousand Bearers of the Light") whose only task throughout the day is the maintenance of this "barrier of light."
thereby preserving their own source of power [that power comes from the essences through which they are linked to Rajaat]."
That's true, but Rise... isn't entirely canonical. Especially in this instance: the power of the Champions/SKs is produced via the Elemental Vortices, not through a link with Rajaat. Abbey may not have known that at the time she was writing Rise..., but it is an interesting idea.
And it could mean something else as well, besides their powers as Sorcerer-kings. Perhaps some sort of spell Rajaat put upon each of the Champions to ensure his own death would mean their own? Just in case of a rebellion by them? (He was a super-genius, after all)
(Game mechanical thoughts ahead) Perhaps the "power" referred to are the Champion templates (if there is such a thing), which require Rajaat's existance to maintain or draw power from. The death of Rajaat would result in the loss of many levels, and the loss of all those levels (all that power) would be a serious blow to the Sorcerer-kings.
I still have to say that of all the ink that has been put down concerning the true nature of the Black, yours is the best.
Thank you! And thank you to everyone else who has expressed their enjoyment of it, as well!
(Check Barnes & Noble - they have used copies of RaFoaDK available right now
)Originally posted by greyorm
(Game mechanical thoughts ahead) Perhaps the "power" referred to are the Champion templates (if there is such a thing), which require Rajaat's existance to maintain or draw power from. The death of Rajaat would result in the loss of many levels, and the loss of all those levels (all that power) would be a serious blow to the Sorcerer-kings.
That's the one I and she meant. Destroying Rajaat would probably mean they'd become mortals again, cease to be Champions, and lose their link to the Dark Lens (if you go with this explanation of the source of templar magic).
Or perhaps they would die outright...
Do take a shot at Dawn's book, man!
--if Rajaat isn't completely immortal, then he's a slacker moron NB
So we are there that Nibenay gots the idea how to imprison Rajaat, Daskinor creates it (it droves him mad) than Borys should upkeep it through the life energy gathered from the Dragon Tax -and this wears down Borys' sanity as well. Just think: all dragons has raging periods during the transformation, which ends when the transformation is complete. But Borys is not sane, altough he is a fully transformed dragon. This can be a good explanation to that.
Sorry about the delayed response, I've been busy (trying to whip a game into shape for GenConIndy publication readiness).
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
Yup - no doubt about it: those are pretty dern good ideas. Wanna write the chapters on the Gray, Black, and Hollow?
Sure, I'd be willing to do it. E-mail or private message me and we can work out details and such (word counts, share ideas and whatever).
Originally posted by Mach2.5
I use a little of Birthright's version of the Shadow Realm as a template for the black. It really fits well with some of what you've got there and would really be worth a look into if you haven't already.
I'm very familiar with Birthright. It's my second-favorite D&D setting!
In fact, I've been toying with a Birthright-domain conversion for Dark Sun. I especially like the idea of converting domain magic levels to something like "domain life levels" meaning the amount of territory controlled by each SK would influence the amount of magical power available to them.
(And it would give a map of life-levels of various areas to reduce adjudication even further; ex: "We're in the 'Shifting Sands' province of the Alluvial Sand Wastes...great, it has a DLL of 1. Casting spells here is going to be difficult.")
(And it would give a map of life-levels of various areas to reduce adjudication even further; ex: "We're in the 'Shifting Sands' province of the Alluvial Sand Wastes...great, it has a DLL of 1. Casting spells here is going to be difficult.")
I had a similar idea of breaking down some of the geographical regions a little further for the purpose of terrain and magic to better use it in large scale wars (I've run a few so far, but most were large scale single battles, never full range and long term wars). It was the main reason why I wanted to map out Athas some time back in a zooming format, but never quite got the hang of CC2 well enough. Anyhow, if you ever want to develope the idea further, let me know (btw, Birthright for me came in 3rd after Planescape, but its still one of my all time favs).
Originally posted by Mach2.5
I use a little of Birthright's version of the Shadow Realm as a template for the black. It really fits well with some of what you've got there and would really be worth a look into if you haven't already.
Ok, you got me curious. Plus I've been toying with a few things from Birthright some.
What is the best accessory to get on the Shadow Realm, if there is one specifically on it?
My idea is still a bit rough and may not be presented in the most understandable way. The general idea is that the 4 elemental planes are constantly being fed pure elemental energy thus creating new elemental material. As new elemental material is created the old material pushes out of the finite elemental planes into the Inner Transitive Plane where it mixes with other elemental material as it is pulled towards a maelstrom at the heart of the plane and converted back into pure elemental energy to be fed back into the elemental planes to continue this cycle forever. At the maelstrom the Living Vortices siphon pure elemental energy for the SK's templar magic. Because the Elemental Planes are finite there is only so much pure elemental energy and every spell that a templar casts depletes the inner planes slightly, though not so much as to be detrimental. However, continual use of templar magic over a period of time would be noticeable and may bring unwanted elemental attention to an SK. Because of this, the SK's are selective in the bestowing of templar spells and it ensures that the number of templars an individual SK has is limited by the risk each is willing to take.On each elemental plane, there exists two elements: one positive element and one negative element. For example: On the Elemental Plane of Earth the positive element is Earth and the negative element is Magma. The other sets are: Water/Silt, Fire/Sun, and Air/Rain. The amount of positive elemental material or negative elemental material on a given elemental plane is directly proportional to the influence of the Negative Energy Plane or the Positive Energy Plane on the given elemental plane. For example: On the Elemental Plane of Water, negative energy is dominant over positive energy and thus Silt is dominate over Water. The plane should more accurately be called the Elemental Plane of Silt.As above, so below. The Athasian Inner Planes directly affect Athas and vice versa, therefore, a victory on one is a victory on another. Elementals, positive and negative, seek out individuals on Athas to continue the struggle for them on the Material Plane. Pacts between Athasians and Elementals give us our Elemental Clerics and ensures the elements have willing participants to seek out those opposed to them. An Elemental Cleric actively promotes his/her element and seeks to destroy opposing Elemental Clerics, first their own planes opposing element and then the other planes negative or positive elements as pertaining to the cleric. For example: An Elemental Cleric of Water actively seeks to disrupt Elemental Clerics of Silt first and then will move to disrupt Elemental Clerics of Magma, Sun, and Rain second. Positively-aligned Elemental Clerics unite against Negatively-aligned Elemental Clerics.For those of you familliar with Planescape's Blood War, this "Elemental War" is similar with one main difference: Where the Tannari and Baatezu willingly engage in combat due to their opposing moral philosophies and intense hatred of each other, the Positive and Negative Energy Planes, through the elemental planes, engage the other for natural, unemotional reasons. There is no driving concept or intelligence: It just is. Each Material Plane has its own Inner Planes. On most worlds, the Inner Planes are balanced and there is no "Elemental War". But on Athas, Rajaat and his Champions, through the use of defiling magic on a massive scale, upset the tenuous balance of the Inner Planes throwing them into chaos. Once unbalanced, the Inner Planes must be rebalanced through the efforts of elemental clerics and by battles between the elmentals. If they are not, the ultimate conclusion will be the annihilation of one of Athas's two energy planes and then the dissolution of the Material Plane. Well, that is my idea in a nutshell! Any questions?
An infinite plane would supply the elementals with infinite elemental power reducing their care of Athas's problems to null. Null Concern = No Elemental Clerics = Breakdown of Campaign Setting
But its not the plane itself that is supplying the energy, its Athas. Does your house supply the electricity needed to run your computer, lights, TV, stove, etc. Nope. The electric company does that. Athas is the generator that makes life on the elemental planes posssible. Its not a matter of size at all, but potency. Even if the elemental plane of fire is composed of nothing but flame, if its not dominant on Athas, then that flame is a cool one, not the raging inferno that its inhabitants would wish it to be. Size in this instance, is irrelevant.
3e model of the Inner Planes.
There needs to be a smiley for puking. Not directed at you Cyrus, just the 3e MotP.
Anyhow, the rest of your model is interesting. I'll have more input with the proper balance of caffine later on.
:lightbulb :fight!:
I've always thought of the Black as the plane of shadow.
That is part of what inspired my idea above, Term! I've always thought of them as basically equivalent.
As to the Black being a dimensional barrier (of sorts), that's a very interesting idea, Term.