My group consists of the following and they're armed accordingly:
--Kender 2nd/2nd Fighter/Rogue
Weapons: +1 Sling, +2 Dagger (cursed: paranoia)
--Half-Elf 5th level Bard
Weapons: +1 Defender Longsword
Armor: +1 Chain Shirt
--Daewar 5th level Cleric of Reorx
Armor: +2 Spell Resistant (SR 13) Chain Mail
--Kagonesti 4th/1st Barbarian/Mystic
Weapons: +2 Battleaxe
--Human 4th level Fighter
Weapons: +1 Dragon Bane Longsword*
Armor: +1 Breastplate Armor*
--Neidar 3rd level Mystic (new PC)
none**
*This character has recently undergone a transformation from a former Petitioner of the Knights of Neraka to a "squire" of the Legion of Steel. He lost his previous weapon, a +1 Longsword, which was very symbolic of his former associations. My plan is to have a ghost, an ancient Kharolian warrior to whom he is a distant relation, challenge him in single combat and then yield his heirlooms, the weapon and armor mentioned above, to him.
**I am intending for this character to find either a +1 piece of armor or a weapon in the dungeon the group is currently traversing.
The PC's are heading for the climax of the first "volume" of our campaign. The final conflict will be a great battle between the Legion of Steel, with whom the party has recently allied itself. Given the size of this group and their combat tenacity I am not afraid to pit them against CR5, CR6, and even CR7 combat encounters on a regular basis. For the final dramatic battle I intend for there to be encounters with numerous animals afflicted with the Blood Fury (see "Bestiary of Kyrnn"), Knights of Neraka (including 2 or 3 full Knights of the Lily: Ftr/KoL 5th/1st), a handful of Draconians (sappers), and a Knight of the Skull (Cleric/KoS 6th/1st) who will be riding on Wyvern-back for at least part of the battle.
So, what do you think? Have I outfitted my characters properly or have I given them too many magical advantages? If I have given them too many advantages how should I go about correcting the error? I look forward to hearing from anyone with a thought or opinion.
Cheers,
Maglaurus
Plus, who would make a defender sword that could only grant at most +1 to AC? Or a sword for fighting dragons that only gives +1 to hit the damn things? Only minor things, but that's what stands out to me.
The party does have other little treasures and baubles they've collected over some 13 sessions of play together. These include a handful of scrolls (mostly little divine spells like "Cure Light Wounds" and "Bless") and some potions, but they have a paranoia about them that makes them want to heal frequently so they tend to use those sorts of things up fast. They also have two wands with them one of "Darkness" and one of "Ghoul Touch", though they've had limited use especially since the party lost its single arcane magic user. The Kender can, and has, used the wands by way of the "Use Magical Device" skill--often with disastrous consequences.
Cheers,
Maglaurus
I call shenanegans!
If DL is so dang Low Magic, why the crap did one 3rd level wizard have two ARTIFACTS in his possession at the start of the adventure? Every member of the Companions had at least a +2 weapon at the start of Chronicles, not to mention they all had magical armor, except Goldmoon.
So don't go telling us DL is Low Magic.
----------
Back on subject, that looks like a normal amount of treasure. The +2 Chain Shirt of SR 13 looks kinda out of place, but it does work into the wealth chart just fine.
I would start giving them some non-weapon/non-armor magic items though. Woundrous Items are your friend. Throw in a couple Habbakuk's Feather Tokens, a Huma's Handy Haversack, or a Rod of Kenderbane (Rod of Wonder).
-TRRW
Originally posted by pddisc
In DL, magic is very rare.
No it's not. It's a standard fantasy setting. Some adventurers might argue magic and items are to damn common, with magical races being what they are in Krynn and all.
A little background on the Daewar character's armor, in case you're interested:
This particular chainmail is a set Dwarf War Priest's Vestments. It was created some time before the First Cataclysm at the peak of religious fervor in Thorbardin—when as many priests as nobles held military titles. The vestments were given to the character by the spirit of an ancient Hylar War Priest as a reward for purifying a mausoleum where his body and the bodies of many of his loyal soldiers were entombed. I figured that Dwarves would make armor that was resistant to magic out of their natural suspicion and discontent for it and it would be a good way to start this new priest of Reorx on the path to discovering more about the “Old Religion”.
This might be counter to the Dragonlance storyline but, for the purposes of my game, I've set it up such that the Dwarves of Thorbardin had a very bad reaction to the disappearance of the gods. They burned a number of the temples and religious libraries in their rage and, even after they calmed down, ceased the very formal and ceremonial worship of Reorx. When the gods returned the Dwarves did their best to recreate the old ceremonies and rituals, but they had destroyed most of the old texts and much of what remained was based on oral tradition handed down through the priesthood between the Cataclysm and the War of the Lance.
Cheers,
Maglaurus
I would never give magical weapons to players that have not reached level 6-7 at least. The reason is simple; if I gave them a +X breastplate at level 4, what on earth must I give them at level 15
---
Magical items is consider (by me that is) as an ultimate reward. They are usually handed to the party after long and tenuous sessions which include riddle solving, battles, RPing etc.
why is DL a low magic world if nearly all the NPCs in the 3.0 / 3.5 books have some nice magic items
why is DL a low magic world if there were 5 towers of high sorcery back in the time before the cataclysm, so many elves are around and dont forget the time before the gods ruled over magic, where magic was so powerfull that it could easiely match the magic on faerun before the fall of the netheril
yes i know it is long ago, and i dont say that every char should just get a magic item for doing nothing, but after all, there are magic items and not to few
i dont DM DL, but i have done it for a long time (nearly 10 years now) back in the old 2nd edition and i think that the items you are giving are ok for the chars
the main problem i see with not giving magic items during a DL campaign is that the players if they die tend to change their characters, i am currently playing in a DL campaign were magic items are realy rare (we are level 11 now and only the wizard has some), after such a long time every char who died was replaced by some kind of spellcaster... not the best way i think to obtain a magic weapon or a piece of armor (2 clerics, 1 wizard and 1 druid are currently in the campaign, so we have at least a little chance to fight monsters that are at our CR)
There is also the point that a lot of NPCs from Dragonlance DID have a lot of magic gear. The companions themselves had a lot. Tanis had a very rare and unique dragon bane sword, there were the dragonlances that both Sturm and Laurana wielded. Tasslehoff got Rabbitslayer, a +4 dagger that always returned to him. Raistlin had two artifacts. Just because the book doesn't talk about them much doesn't mean they aren't magical. They may only touch on them a bit. Being able to write subtly is a good skill.
This isn't confirmed, but as far as I know, the companions were only around 5th level at the beginning of the War of the Lance, getting to 11th by its close (with the exception of Raistlin, who got to 20). But my main point was not to discuss the 'low magic' in Krynn, despite my disagreement with it. I just wanted to point out that it is almost expected that low level characters, 4th+, have at least a few magic items. Otherwise, get ready to increase the CRs for a lot of standard monsters, because they'll be very tough for a party with few magic gear.
It seems (in many books) that magical items in Dragonlance are as common as in any other world. There is actually much even powerful stuff in Krynn. Also there have always been magic users (this would probably mean also alchemists), so more could have been created "all the time".
On the other hand happenings like 5th age and lose of magic should probably have made magical items more rare, because powerful individuals (like dragons) have collected them because leeching of magic.
In my game minor magical items (say +1, +2; 1st to 4th level spell scrolls...etc.) are more common. Ok, not every peasant or thug have +1 weaponry, but these kind of weaponry or armor can be found in most magical stores with good price.
But anything more powerful, including special magical items (rings of visibility...etc.) are VERY RARE. Those who have them usually hide them. Especially before WoS, when Dragon Overlords (and others, like Knights of Thorn) collect magical items for Leeching.
I also use magical items as rewards to players very carefully. This keeps the players very excited even they get minor item. But I do give my players magical items and weaponry.
I think mid-level characters (3rd to 6th level) should all have magical items/weaponry/armor, but not very powerful stuff. I would say that level characters need some magical arsenal. Higher level characters (7th to 13th level) start getting some more powerful items (+4 weaponry...etc.).
These are just my rules.
Now that normal magic is back mageware shops probably got a flood of 'lesser' magic items mages don't need to leech from anymore.
Sad, eh?
-TRRW
Originally posted by TheRedRobedWizard
At the beginning of the War of the Lance everyone except Tika and Raistlin were level 5 or 6. Tika was level 4, Raist was level 3.
Sad, eh?
Raistlin was 3rd. Flint and Tas were 4th. Goldmoon, Riverwind and Tanis were 5th, and Sturm and Caramon were 6th. Tika was a dual-classed human character, which throws things off. Of course, back then all of the classes had different XP progressions, and several characters had level caps based on their gender and race. Laurana never advanced higher than 5th level fighter despite becoming the Golden General, because she was a female elf. Now that was sad.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Karui_Kage
I don't think they had level caps, but you may be referring to a past edition.
I was. In 1st edition AD&D, non-humans were limited in how high they could advance in classes other than thief. There weren't a lot of high-level female elven fighters.
Cheers,
Cam
On the topic of magic. I'd say you check the DMG to see how much starting money each character would have at his/her level. then add up the gp value of all their equipment to see if the total is similar. It sounds to me like your characters have a LITLLE more than they should, but not enough for you to worry.
Originally posted by Taskr36
Level limits were completely retarded for non-humans. How can a 20 year old human have so much more potential as a fighter than a 130 year old dwarf(15 max), or a 300 year old elf(5 max)?
All other things being equal? They can't. The idea was that all other things weren't equal. That the short lifespan of humans and relative paucity of natural advantages, like elven sight, lead to a ravenous ambition. Something the longer lived races viewed as primarily destructive, antithetical to their way of life, and which was as dangerous to them as it was to the humans.
Originally posted by Karui_Kage
I don't think they had level caps, but you may be referring to a past edition.
No, no, they were right, there were level caps. Back in 2nd eddition, the DL box set had a specific section in it which depicted the maximum levels of the character, obtainable by that race. Then again, most did not go past 18, because then you were taken by the gods or something like that, because you were to strong to be on the planet. Or some crazy thing like that.
Originally posted by Insancipitory By Nature
All other things being equal? They can't. (human's can't have more potential to be great fighters than elves) The idea was that all other things weren't equal. That the short lifespan of humans and relative paucity (absence) of natural advantages, like elven sight, lead to a ravenous (greedy) ambition. Something the longer lived races viewed as primarily destructive, antithetical (in opposition) to their way of life, and which was as dangerous to them as it was to the humans.
Wow dude, your post looks like a dictionary threw up. I take it from what you wrote that you don't think humans can be better fighters than elves in 2nd Ed because they don't have infravision or a +1 to Dex. Your post implies that elves aren't ambitious enough to reach above 5th level as fighters. If that's the case, than how in gods name did they win a war with Ergoth? How is it that the Kirath are such excellent fighters? How is it that elves are known as the best bowmen on Krynn if they never get past 5th level as fighters? I don't think having a +1 to dex made them that good.
Remember folks we're discussing 2nd Edition DnD, which is why none of this applies to most of your games.
Originally posted by Taskr36
Your post implies that elves aren't ambitious enough to reach above 5th level as fighters.
My thought on the old AD&D caps was that like aging, everything the longer lived races did took longer.
Meaning...in a normal game with one character 10 years or so may pass before reaching level 20...maybe more. Now for a human 10 years is 10 years...but for an elf (in AD&D...they were longer lived) 10 years is like 2 months, realively. So there's no way a human could level up to 20 in 2 months.
I think that was the equilizing effect they were trying to go for (at least that is how I justified it in my head). But, also, if I had played an elf through 200 years or so, I would have allowed them to go beyond level 5 (or whatnot).
Personally...I like the idea that the PCs are adventurers who are just a little bit off the norm from their respective societies. They're a step above, so to speak. I also like the idea of "all other things being equal" so that all races can advance at the same speed to the same level if they went through the same trials. It might not be as realistic, but I like it better. Which is probably why I enjoy 3e more than I did AD&D.
Originally posted by Brimstone
My thought on the old AD&D caps was that like aging, everything the longer lived races did took longer.
Meaning...in a normal game with one character 10 years or so may pass before reaching level 20...maybe more. Now for a human 10 years is 10 years...but for an elf (in AD&D...they were longer lived) 10 years is like 2 months, realively. So there's no way a human could level up to 20 in 2 months.
I agree with you on this which is why in 2nd Ed I had experience penalties for elves to show how they progress more slowly.
You certainly took it wrong. Which is "Ok", checking my list, you're *allowed.*
It's just an old idea. As the game grows, for one reason or another, these are occasionally abandoned in favor of other conventions. The other races were blessed with natural affinities, and very long lives. Humans were both blessed and cursed with a short life. More keenly aware of the time that slipped away from them; in their allotted moments, humans would endeavor more than individuals of the other races, but would also be cursed to have little of it last. The candle that burns twice as bright lasts half as long. The super massive star burns brilliantly but only lives a million years to our modest sun's ten billion.
Think about how the other races view time, since they have so much of it. How that would affect the distribution of jobs in their society. How they might view the humans, who are engines of change, with a complicated mixture of confusion, awe and fear. How long periods of wealth and stability might lead the longer lived races to assume many aspects of a dilettante culture. For humans, greatness in all its forms is a perilous goal for which many strive and nearly all fall short of. For the long lived races, greatness is an entitled mantle which is assumed by it's rightful heir in the fullness of time provided nothing goes terribly wrong.
Think of Gimly and his talk of the caves of Helm's Deep. Dwarf masons would always take a twenty. For every single tool operation. And, when finished, it would look it. But they would learn little, and progress slowly. Over that same span a similar number of humans would have lived and died raising children many times their number building a great many works, few of which, if any, might last more than a century.
The average Kirath probably shouldn't be beyond 5th level. Amusingly enough, the Kirath in just this last session I gamed were between 4th and 5th level rangers. That with a superior dex, surprise, cover and composite longbows is more than adequate to take down a much larger more heavily armed force of 1st to 3rd level humans with a few ogres. Even those level estimates are somewhat questionable given the comparative sneakiness of the minotaurs at the end of the War of Souls.
Again, all this was just echoes of storytelling past printed in a game that some people found as a loose method for telling similar stories. If you, or anyone else, should find those particulars, or anything else, to be an impediment to good storytelling who is anyone, Gary Gygax included, to say otherwise?