Dragonlance elves alignment?

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

elthbert

Jun 04, 2004 11:30:57
I have been rereading some of the novels and reading a few of the older ones I had never read( like the meeting series) and I started thinking the elves are kind of strange when it comes to aliengment, socially they are extremly lawful, Lawful good with lawful nuetral tendencies perhaps but individually many of them do seem to have Chaotic natures, so in Dragonlance what is there aliengment supposed to be? If it is Chaotic Good like in most worlds then their society is NOT representitive of that at all, so what do y'all think?
#2

talinthas

Jun 04, 2004 11:56:06
i think that for dragonlance, you have to drop the LNC axis altogether. It hardly ever applies to nations in the setting. I think that during design they only used GNE in clear cut sections. Elves are *good*. Neraka is *evil* etc.
#3

nuke

Jun 04, 2004 17:15:01
Dwarves are without question Lawful though.. so that doesn't really hold up.

Just because you are Chaotic doesn't mean that you don't follow a leader either, particularly if you are good as well. It just means that you do value a certain amount of freedom, which certainly describes elves. So I think CG is a pretty typical alignment for elves as a whole.
#4

zombiegleemax

Jun 04, 2004 17:34:31
Just because you are Chaotic doesn't mean that you don't follow a leader either, particularly if you are good as well. It just means that you do value a certain amount of freedom, which certainly describes elves. So I think CG is a pretty typical alignment for elves as a whole.

Uhhh...I think that Chaotic entails a bit more than valuing a certain amount of personal freedom, even the most lawful people probably value a certain amount of freedom.

I would argue that elven culture is paradoxical to a certain extent. The Qualinesti value personal freedom and liberty, but cling to out-dated traditions and ways of life that stagnate their culture just because that's the way it has always been. Now, if that isn't extremely lawful, I don't know what is.

In comparison, the Silvanesti are even worse. Much of their culture revolves around a pseudo-caste system that locks people into certain societal roles and professions. They hold on to their ancient traditions even more strongly than the Qualinesti and are far less tolerant of anything different or new.

Also reflecting Krynnish elves' lawful tendencies is the concept of outcast dark elves. The Silvanesti and Qualinesti have been shown time and again to ostracise individuals just because they believe or behave different from the majority of elvish society. And in most of the DL novels (that I have read at least) free-thinking, open-minded, liberal elves seem to be in the minority or of the youngest generations.

In my mind the elves of Krynn are the epitome of lawful, just as much as the dwarves, Solamnics, or minotaurs. They may value personal freedoms, but only to the point that it doesn't disrupt their otherwise placid and stately society.
#5

karui_kage

Jun 04, 2004 20:51:20
I don't have much time now, so I'll just quote the elves' alignment section.

Qualinesti: "The Qualinesti are proponents of independence, self-determination, and freedom. They tend to be mildly chaotic, with a strong tendency toward Goodness. Qualinesti who embrace evil become dark elves."

Silvanesti: "With a society built upon a strict hierarchy, Silvanesti tend to be more lawfully inclined than other elves. Silvanesti are aligned with good, but they believe so highly in their own purity that goodness can be taken to extremes."

So while Qualinesti seem to be the typical elf of this world (closely associated with the PHB elf), and are most likely Chaotic Good on average, Silvanesti seem to be more towards Neutral Good on average, maybe Lawful Good.
#6

zombiegleemax

Jun 04, 2004 21:53:16
Although the DLCS might equate the Qualinesti with the standard Dungeons and Dragons High Elf, I think that the novels reflect a different alignment.
#7

zombiegleemax

Jun 04, 2004 23:16:20
The elves value freedom? You worship and evil god, wear red or black robes and your branded a dark elf. Yeah much freedom there.
#8

quentingeorge

Jun 05, 2004 0:07:43
The elves value freedom? You worship and evil god, wear red or black robes and your branded a dark elf. Yeah much freedom there.

That's where the "good" part of their alignment comes in, which is stronger than the "chaotic" portion.

Elves value freedom, yes, but that doesn't mean they tolerate evil in their midst.
#9

zombiegleemax

Jun 05, 2004 6:53:30
It's not that the elves are intolerant of evil, the elves are generally intolerant of anything different, anything that disrupts their way of life.

That is why they branded Alhana and Porthios Dark Elves, that is why Dalamar was initially branded a dark elf (if I remember correctly, he was ostracised for practicing magic-- not for taking the black robes).
#10

karui_kage

Jun 05, 2004 8:57:29
In my belief, Alhana and Dalamar were the only two that were made dark elves out of a disregard to change bent. Dalamar because he was evil though, but Alhana because of the former. Note that they were both made dark elves by Silvanesti, and as I said above, Silvanesti do have a more lawful bent.

Porthios was made a dark elf because he was held prisoner in Silvanost with his medallion removed. I never was quite sure how that happened, but when they put it on Gilthas, his people believed that he had willingly turned his back on them. In that case, it wasn't a case of them not willing to change that led him to become a dark elf, but because they had felt betrayed. Hence why the Qualinesti are the more chaotic folk as opposed to the lawful bent of the Silvanesti.

Least, that's my belief.
#11

elthbert

Jun 05, 2004 9:06:54
Well Qualinesti are certianly more Chaotic, thats why Kith-kanan broke away and went off to find a new place to live. But even they have elaborate ritual in all things and tradition is a HUGE portion of there life, much more lawful then chaotic trait. Still individually they do seem to act in a chaotic manner. That is why I brought up the question.
#12

zombiegleemax

Jun 05, 2004 9:31:53
NG

all of the elven nations are (on average) Neutral Good
#13

elthbert

Jun 05, 2004 12:11:33
Yeah I was kind of thinking that but I think it is kind of strangely devided between socially Lawful and privately Chaotic behavior.
#14

zombiegleemax

Jun 05, 2004 14:22:48
Well how are elves good then? Most of the time they depise being with any other race, not letting any in their lands. Not very good to me, more neutral.
#15

zombiegleemax

Jun 05, 2004 15:44:08
As a rule elves are good because they venerate the gods of light, they value life and honesty, altruism and compassion. Being good would mean the average elf puts the needs of others before him/herself, and doesn't mind helping an individual in need (oh even if s/he does mind, the average elf would help because it is the right thing to do).

They may be ethnocentric, arrogant, and even racist- but for the most part elves believe in behaving piously, respecting the gods and the rights of others, and putting others before oneself.
#16

zombiegleemax

Jun 08, 2004 17:10:54
Actually, Dalamar was cast out (became a dark elf) not because he was evil, but because he studied magic even though he was from House Servitor (ie, broke caste system). He'd still be a 'dark elf' even if he wore the White Robes.
#17

hatrel

Jun 09, 2004 7:04:42
Originally posted by DanUCSB
Actually, Dalamar was cast out (became a dark elf) not because he was evil, but because he studied magic even though he was from House Servitor (ie, broke caste system). He'd still be a 'dark elf' even if he wore the White Robes.

ACTUALLY, he was caught offering his soul to Nuitari after returning to Silvanesti when the war was over. He broke the caste system, yes, but when he returned to his cave where the spellbooks of an evil wizard were hidden, he found the books destroyed and his life empty. He stated his dedication to Nuitari out loud and the elves tracking him busted him.
#18

zombiegleemax

Jun 09, 2004 16:54:28
What is with Blood Elfs? They believe at Sargonas.
#19

zombiegleemax

Jun 11, 2004 7:13:06
Originally posted by Hatrel
ACTUALLY, he was caught offering his soul to Nuitari after returning to Silvanesti when the war was over. He broke the caste system, yes, but when he returned to his cave where the spellbooks of an evil wizard were hidden, he found the books destroyed and his life empty. He stated his dedication to Nuitari out loud and the elves tracking him busted him.

A good point. However, the Silvanesti would still label even a prospective White Robe a dark elf if he happened to be a commoner from House Servitor. This is borne out by the general trend of Silvanesti society throughout history condemning good-aligned rebels and malcontents as dark elves. That's an example of hyper-Lawfulness to the extreme, if you ask me. Probably even lawful neutral behaviour, rather than good. I never quite saw how Silvanesti elves could revere Astarin, a chaotic good deity, as their chief god, and yet act with the almost fascist intolerance that they do.