Population figures for Sigil - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Population figures for Sigil

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
banshee
Jun 06, 2004 15:23:00 I was taking a look at the DMG, and comparing the population charts to figure out rulers, # of classed characters etc.

Sigil (according to the Epic level book) would count as a planar metropolis, given that the population is listed as over one million (I went with 1,200,000. Though only 1/3 of that is permanent residents.

Based on those figures there are 12,000 guards, plus a bunch of classed characters. I figure the guards are split between the Harmonium and the Mercykillers, but are they in addition to the normal dispersion of leveled characters?

I have only tried ascertaining the numbers of barbarians and bards so far, but still end up with something like 300 barbarians ranging from level 1 to 24, 290 bards from level 1 to 25, etc.

These numbers seem very low.

Obviously, Sigil may very well be skewed towards the middle and upper ends of the scale, as it's a planar metropolis and likely has a higher precentage of adventurer-type people with classes and levels.

That said, it brought up the question of whether those rules in the DMG work at all. I mean, trying to stick with them, it seems like fairly low percentages of characters for such a huge city. I mean, I could end up with only 3000-4000 classed characters, in a city of over one million. Are adventurers *that* rare?

It's my first time trying to use those rules for a city, and was more of an experiment than anything.

Banshee
#2
ohtar_turinson
Jun 06, 2004 22:33:56 I don't think those rules apply to sigil at all. Those rules are made for normal metropoleis. Sigil has demons, angels and everything in between living there. Maybe alot of them don't have classes actually- that could account for it.

In a normal city, adventuring characters, or ones with class levels are abnormal... in Sigil I suspect that things are rather different. Mayhaps someone more knowledgable then I (read: anyone else) will enlighten us.
#3
banshee
Jun 06, 2004 23:43:52 This is something I definitely acknowledge....

I was curious more from the perspective of this...

When trying to work out the numbers, even in a city of over one million residents, using those rules, the number of characters with class levels seems rather small....

I'm curious as to whether anyone else has tried to stat out a city.

Sigil would be an interesting exercise, but I think I agree with you...it's probably folly to spend time finishing off working out all those details.

Banshee
#4
zombiegleemax
Jun 07, 2004 4:42:39 Well, yes, adventurers are that rare. 3 or 4 in a thousand sounds like quite a lot already. How many people are willing to risk their neck daily while fighting monsters that want to eat your brain? And how many actually survive for any length of time?

Sigil, on the other hand, is well outside any reasonable probability curve. Except for those who were born there, everyone had to get inside through a portal of some kind, which already implies being a bit more wild than your average peasant. On top of that, lots of inhabitants are creatures with enormous power even without experience levels. The normal model definitely doesn't apply.
#5
Ryltar_Swordsong
Jun 07, 2004 5:09:52 Sigil population: "2, not more than 2. Maybe 3." - Scrib Clang, Gully Dwarf census taker.;)
#6
zombiegleemax
Jun 07, 2004 12:05:08 Sigils visiting population shouldn't be counted while determining numbers of classed characters. The majority of traveller coming through Sigil are classed adventurer or powerful extraplaner creature
#7
sildatorak
Jun 07, 2004 12:14:56 Not only is Sigil skewed by the high transient population, a lot of people who have adventurer class levels in quests and such would probably have NPC classes in 3e.

As a hypothetical example, if the Mortuary is statted in a 2e adventure as having guards who are level 3 fighters that aren't specialized, they would probably be third level warriors in 3e since there are actually rules to represent people who are better than run of the mill but still aren't "adventurers."

A similar thing would probably apply to harmonium patrols. The bulk of the force would probably be various levels of warriors; fighters (and of course mages and paladins) would probably be officers instead of the rank and file.
#8
ripvanwormer
Jun 07, 2004 22:28:46 Sigil doesn't have to obey the rules. The rules were designed for cities that most people have to travel across the country or up a river to get to. Sigil has portals to everywhere. It's a major center of power on the planes, and attracts the powerful accordingly.

There are as many high-level (even epic-level) characters there as you need there to be, and there's ample justification for it.

I agree that most Hardheads and other guards will probably be warriors, but remember the converse: many of the characters listed as 0-level in 2nd edition will now have NPC class levels. Factol Hashkar will probably be an extremely high-level Expert, for example.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 banshee Jun 06, 2004 15:23:00	I was taking a look at the DMG, and comparing the population charts to figure out rulers, # of classed characters etc. Sigil (according to the Epic level book) would count as a planar metropolis, given that the population is listed as over one million (I went with 1,200,000. Though only 1/3 of that is permanent residents. Based on those figures there are 12,000 guards, plus a bunch of classed characters. I figure the guards are split between the Harmonium and the Mercykillers, but are they in addition to the normal dispersion of leveled characters? I have only tried ascertaining the numbers of barbarians and bards so far, but still end up with something like 300 barbarians ranging from level 1 to 24, 290 bards from level 1 to 25, etc. These numbers seem very low. Obviously, Sigil may very well be skewed towards the middle and upper ends of the scale, as it's a planar metropolis and likely has a higher precentage of adventurer-type people with classes and levels. That said, it brought up the question of whether those rules in the DMG work at all. I mean, trying to stick with them, it seems like fairly low percentages of characters for such a huge city. I mean, I could end up with only 3000-4000 classed characters, in a city of over one million. Are adventurers that rare? It's my first time trying to use those rules for a city, and was more of an experiment than anything. Banshee
#2 ohtar_turinson Jun 06, 2004 22:33:56	I don't think those rules apply to sigil at all. Those rules are made for normal metropoleis. Sigil has demons, angels and everything in between living there. Maybe alot of them don't have classes actually- that could account for it. In a normal city, adventuring characters, or ones with class levels are abnormal... in Sigil I suspect that things are rather different. Mayhaps someone more knowledgable then I (read: anyone else) will enlighten us.
#3 banshee Jun 06, 2004 23:43:52	This is something I definitely acknowledge.... I was curious more from the perspective of this... When trying to work out the numbers, even in a city of over one million residents, using those rules, the number of characters with class levels seems rather small.... I'm curious as to whether anyone else has tried to stat out a city. Sigil would be an interesting exercise, but I think I agree with you...it's probably folly to spend time finishing off working out all those details. Banshee
#4 zombiegleemax Jun 07, 2004 4:42:39	Well, yes, adventurers are that rare. 3 or 4 in a thousand sounds like quite a lot already. How many people are willing to risk their neck daily while fighting monsters that want to eat your brain? And how many actually survive for any length of time? Sigil, on the other hand, is well outside any reasonable probability curve. Except for those who were born there, everyone had to get inside through a portal of some kind, which already implies being a bit more wild than your average peasant. On top of that, lots of inhabitants are creatures with enormous power even without experience levels. The normal model definitely doesn't apply.
#5 Ryltar_Swordsong Jun 07, 2004 5:09:52	Sigil population: "2, not more than 2. Maybe 3." - Scrib Clang, Gully Dwarf census taker.;)
#6 zombiegleemax Jun 07, 2004 12:05:08	Sigils visiting population shouldn't be counted while determining numbers of classed characters. The majority of traveller coming through Sigil are classed adventurer or powerful extraplaner creature
#7 sildatorak Jun 07, 2004 12:14:56	Not only is Sigil skewed by the high transient population, a lot of people who have adventurer class levels in quests and such would probably have NPC classes in 3e. As a hypothetical example, if the Mortuary is statted in a 2e adventure as having guards who are level 3 fighters that aren't specialized, they would probably be third level warriors in 3e since there are actually rules to represent people who are better than run of the mill but still aren't "adventurers." A similar thing would probably apply to harmonium patrols. The bulk of the force would probably be various levels of warriors; fighters (and of course mages and paladins) would probably be officers instead of the rank and file.
#8 ripvanwormer Jun 07, 2004 22:28:46	Sigil doesn't have to obey the rules. The rules were designed for cities that most people have to travel across the country or up a river to get to. Sigil has portals to everywhere. It's a major center of power on the planes, and attracts the powerful accordingly. There are as many high-level (even epic-level) characters there as you need there to be, and there's ample justification for it. I agree that most Hardheads and other guards will probably be warriors, but remember the converse: many of the characters listed as 0-level in 2nd edition will now have NPC class levels. Factol Hashkar will probably be an extremely high-level Expert, for example.