ravenloft underpopulated?

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

zombiegleemax

Jun 08, 2004 23:22:30
Is it me or ravenloft is underpopulated? I mean dementlieu who is supposed to be the center of art,science and all this stuff is inhbaited by only 12000 person if I remember.
#2

The_Jester

Jun 09, 2004 0:12:25
The entirety of the Core occupies less space than Switzerland. Its pretty darn tiny.
#3

zombiegleemax

Jun 09, 2004 0:50:03
:OMG!

Lol I tought Darkon was as big as russia...

Then ravenloft is really a small setting!
#4

john_w._mangrum

Jun 09, 2004 2:28:54
Originally posted by The_Jester
The entirety of the Core occupies less space than Switzerland. Its pretty darn tiny.

Actually, in third edition it's physically as big as the DM wants it to be.
#5

Mortepierre

Jun 09, 2004 9:32:45
Originally posted by John W. Mangrum
Actually, in third edition it's physically as big as the DM wants it to be.

True John, but given the Gazetteer series gives us the number of inhabitants per domain, the bigger a DM stretches the setting, the more underpopulated it becomes.

Note that I don't complain. I always liked the fact that you didn't need weeks of travel to get across the Core
#6

zombiegleemax

Jun 09, 2004 9:51:13
just need to augment the number of habitant.
#7

zombiegleemax

Jun 13, 2004 23:46:39
I've often felt that the population sizes especially were somewhat small. Particularly for places like Darkon, Nova Vaasa, and Barovia. Though its true that many areas of Ravenloft are quite isolated, even from the other towns and villages in their own domains. So it makes some sense that the total population growth in those areas would be somewhat less profound, even in the "civilized" areas like Dementlieu and Mordent.
#8

rucht_lilavivat

Jun 14, 2004 11:46:30
I've always liked the low populations in Ravenloft. I've always thought they better reflect a more "medieval" atmosphere. And more realistic. In 1500, the city of London had a population of 40,000. That's it.

Low populations contribute to the atmosphere of the game. Cities in Ravenloft are small, intimate, and isolated. Everyone knows everyone else. It makes for a markedly different gaming experience compared to most gaming worlds. -Most- gaming worlds have unrealistically high populations, IMHO.

But there's no accounting for taste, and no reason to feel beholden to the numbers.
#9

zombiegleemax

Jun 14, 2004 15:11:42
yeah I guess you are right!

The only problem with low population is that monsters have an harder time to hide from human like a red widow cannot stay too long in the same town whitout being caught.

But the low population mean nobody is here to help you muahahaha
#10

zombiegleemax

Jun 14, 2004 15:11:42
yeah I guess you are right!

The only problem with low population is that monsters have an harder time to hide from human like a red widow cannot stay too long in the same town whitout being caught.

But the low population mean nobody is here to help you muahahaha
#11

zombiegleemax

Jun 14, 2004 19:55:04
Actually, a red widow can go undetected for weeks. The red haired vixens of death are quite cultured to say the least and most peasants aren't a threat to their kind, especially considering their small numbers. Even if the peasants use the power of deduction, they will more than likely burn some innocent at the stake or believe some other horrible monster is hunting down the villagers. Red widows are intelligent and only see humans as cattle. Best to set someone up and collect her prize with their backs turned.
Well, with that said, here is my ascended smily face
#12

zombiegleemax

Jun 18, 2004 3:17:24
Originally posted by The_Jester
The entirety of the Core occupies less space than Switzerland. Its pretty darn tiny.

I don't know about that...I've read that Kartakass is the size of Switzerland, but never the whole Core.

And I once balked at the low population of the Core myself, but I've recently come to accept that it is very realistic, for a cold, slightly-savage world without modern medicine.
#13

The_Jester

Jun 18, 2004 16:24:39
The maps from the Black Box to Domains of Dread clearly place the Core at 180 miles by 200 miles. . The Sea of Sorrows and the Nocturnal Sea add about 80 and 90 miles respectively. So it is essentially 350m x 200m for a total surface area of 70, 000 miles.
Which actually puts it as slightly larger than Switzerland.

This is only counting the seas however, Switzerland still has more raw land area by 3,000 square miles (36k vs 39k).

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/sz.html

Further info:
There are 490, 000 humans and demi-humans in the Core. Switz has 7,450,867. But that is with modern medicine. In 1815 the population was still larger than the Core at 1,558,000 peeps. Of course, that was still 150+ years more advanced than the folk of Ravenloft. Since populations tend to double every 100 years it might be as low as 584, 250, which tends to make the Core look about right.
#14

hida_jiremi

Jun 18, 2004 16:38:40
Originally posted by Rucht_Lilavivat
Low populations contribute to the atmosphere of the game. Cities in Ravenloft are small, intimate, and isolated. Everyone knows everyone else. It makes for a markedly different gaming experience compared to most gaming worlds. -Most- gaming worlds have unrealistically high populations, IMHO.

I firmly agree here. Most campaign setting have these utterly enormous populations, populations that are similar to modern populations, rather than the populations of medieval European countries, which typically topped out around fifty to ninety thousand. As has been pointed out, London's population in 1500 - well after that period, and a huge city to boot - was 40,000.

Eberron, which I just picked up this last week, is a prime example of this. The world feels too big and too crowded at the same time. The main continent, Khorvaire, is about the size of continental Asia, and most of the countries have populations in the millions. It's kind of annoying after getting so used to Dark Sun and Ravenloft, both of which are intimately familiar and cozy.

In my campaign, by the way, I usually set the size of the Core at the size of the Ohio River Valley (about the size of Ohio, Indiana, and Kentucky put together).

Hida Jiremi
(Jeremy Puckett)
#15

quentingeorge

Jun 18, 2004 17:31:42
Actually, pre-modern populations can get to reasonable numbers, but you need to have fertile land, good climate, an efficient bureaucracy and a strong central government.

Rome nearly reached 1 million by about 100 AD, but after the fall of the Western Empire it had shrunk to 13,000.

Populations in Europe were bigger than you think:

Population Estimates (in millions) at specified times 500-1450


AREA 500 650 1000 1340 1450



Greece/Balkans 5 3 5 6 4.5

Italy 4 2.5 5 10 7.3

Spain/Portugal 4 3.5 7 9 7

Total - South 13 9 17 25 19



France/Low countries 5 3 6 19 12

British Isles 0.5 0.5 2 5 3

Germany/Scandinavia 3.5 2 4 11.5 7.3

Total - West/Central 9 5.5 12 35.5 22.5



Slavia. 5 3

---Russia 6 8 6

---Poland/Lithuania 2 3 2

Hungary 0.5 0.5 1.5 2 1.5

Total -East 5.5 3.5 9.5 13 9.3



TOTAL EUROPE 27.5 18 38.5 73.5 50


Most "typical" D&D campaigns emulate a fourteenth/fifteenth century Europe. As you can see, the population statistics were affected by the Black Death, but France was almost 20 million in 1340.

EDIT: Ah, damn table didn't paste in properly. Well, you get the picture.
#16

The_Jester

Jun 18, 2004 18:20:41
Don't forget by the time of Kubli Khan, the third Mongol Emperor (the Mongolian empire was the largest land-empire in History. Ever) the capital had a population in the millions in a time where Charlemagne and most of Europe were hovels.
Marco Polo journied there and told everyone the size and scope along with the luxuries and no one belived him.

There have been and can be huge populations, they're just few and far between.

Just remember to adjust the population with every increase in the size.
#17

rucht_lilavivat

Jun 19, 2004 1:52:39
Indeed there have been ancient civilizations with cities that reached populations in the millions. Advanced cultures such as Rome, Egypt, and Greece are great examples. Heck, Ayutthaya, the former captial of Thailand (it was called Siam in those days) had a population of 1 million around 1500, when London topped out at 40,000.

However, these are not the cultures that Ravenloft seeks to emulate. And, again, there is the atmosphere issue.

But I maintain that when you're the DM, you should run the game how you wish. A very good friend of mine ran a game recently with massively populated cities in Ravenloft simply because he wanted a more cosmopolitan feel. There is something exciting about being in a big city, and that's part of the reason that we play.

Everyone knows that you can run a game with high populations in cities. Because most people do. But my point is that it is not only -possible- to run a game with lower populations but some ways it provides great verisimilitude for the game. That's all.
#18

zombiegleemax

Jun 19, 2004 2:22:22
Originally posted by The_Jester
The maps from the Black Box to Domains of Dread clearly place the Core at 180 miles by 200 miles. . The Sea of Sorrows and the Nocturnal Sea add about 80 and 90 miles respectively. So it is essentially 350m x 200m for a total surface area of 70, 000 miles.
Which actually puts it as slightly larger than Switzerland.

This is only counting the seas however, Switzerland still has more raw land area by 3,000 square miles (36k vs 39k).

*checks* Hmmmm...right you are.

I can't say I approve of this in the slightest, but whatever. My house rules will always have the Core approximately as big as Europe. :-*
#19

The_Jester

Jun 19, 2004 2:40:42
Yeah, I aim for a size slightly smaller than Europe personally, but definetly larger than it is.

Just remember to adjust the populations every time you adjust the scale.
#20

zombiegleemax

Jun 19, 2004 11:43:36
*shrugs* IMO, it doesn't make much of a difference. I doubt there's any instance in the context of the game in which a DM will tell his or her PC's, "Port-a-Lucine has ____ people." In my experience, it's more "This city seems more/less crowded than the one you were just in."
#21

The_Jester

Jun 21, 2004 0:17:36
Well the population does determine the gp limit of the town, what services are available and how many high level characters f what classes are present.
#22

zombiegleemax

Jun 22, 2004 0:26:28
I pretty much like the populations the way they are.

Its true, the more people the higher level and more wealth they're going to have...but ravenloft is not a high level environment, you don't have epic characters running around or even lots that are higher than 15. Those characters are legendary.

Personally I like how the levels run in ravenloft. The lower the levels the better 'real' feeling of the populations you get. Ravenloft is also a unique realm...many of the populations sprang up over night, and I don't think many of the lands are very prosperous. And even though matters of healing are greatly advanced for the cultures (with clerics) all of the evil things of the land tend to more than make up for that.

I haven't met a really big city that I liked...with the exception of Lankhmar...and even then there would be a lot of stuff I'd have to change about it.

I like just about all the ravenloft cities.