errata in dragon lance campaign setting - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

errata in dragon lance campaign setting

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Jun 12, 2004 20:41:06 I am wondering if anybody knows if there is errata on the dragonlance campaign setting like Ogres having a listed +2 level adjustment and you are instructed to add +6 to your level. Minotaurs get no level adjustment (although this not that unusual). I am just wondering there seems to be some interestig things that don't mesh with other things I have read.
#2
theredrobedwizard
Jun 12, 2004 21:06:47 Ogres have racial Hit Dice.

4 HD + 2 LA = +6

-TRRW
#3
zombiegleemax
Jun 13, 2004 1:32:52 I see that makes sense. I always thought that was worked into the adjustment. The Psionic handbook would then need to do that for Thri Kreen as well, Thanks.
#4
brimstone
Jun 14, 2004 10:02:15
Originally posted by kreenrunner
I see that makes sense. I always thought that was worked into the adjustment. The Psionic handbook would then need to do that for Thri Kreen as well, Thanks.

It used to be. This is a new rule for 3.5e. So LAs and ECLs were adjusted accordingly.
#5
karui_kage
Jun 14, 2004 22:41:42 Yeah. It's a bit redundant, but the formula total is:

Hit Dice + Level Adjustment = Total Level Adjustment.

Total Level Adjustment + Class Levels = ECL (Effective Character Level).

ECL is the basis for experience points.

So a character that had 2 levels of fighter, 4 hit dice from monstrous humanoid, and a +2 level adjustment, would be an effective 8th level character, and gain experience accordingly.
#6
cam_banks
Jun 14, 2004 22:58:28
Originally posted by Karui_Kage
Yeah. It's a bit redundant, but the formula total is:

Hit Dice + Level Adjustment = Total Level Adjustment.

Total Level Adjustment + Class Levels = ECL (Effective Character Level).

This is almost right. Level adjustment = level adjustment. LA plus Hit Dice and Class Levels = Effective Character Level. Hit dice are considered equivalent to class levels for all purposes, adding together to determine the number of feats a character has, their base attack bonus and saves, the skill cap, etc etc. Level adjustment affects none of these and is purely for determining how many experience points are needed to advance and the character's expected level of wealth.

Cheers,
Cam
#7
karui_kage
Jun 14, 2004 23:02:54 Yeah. It means the same in the end, its really a matter of how you look at it. For simplicity's sake, in my games whenever a player wants a monstrous race, I always tell them to add the Hit Dice and Level Adjustment to figure out the total adjustment that they need to add to their classes for character level. Just a difference in wording really.
#8
brimstone
Jun 15, 2004 9:28:41
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Hit dice are considered equivalent to class levels for all purposes, adding together to determine the number of feats a character has, their base attack bonus and saves, the skill cap, etc etc.

So...what is your opinion of leaving the Hit Dice out so that a party of 3 first level characters can have a centaur of ECL 3 (instead of 7) to start off and not completely unbalance the party? (I was thinking the DMG said a 2 level difference was okay).
#9
cam_banks
Jun 15, 2004 9:44:05
Originally posted by Brimstone
So...what is your opinion of leaving the Hit Dice out so that a party of 3 first level characters can have a centaur of ECL 3 (instead of 7) to start off and not completely unbalance the party? (I was thinking the DMG said a 2 level difference was okay).

Well, there's a slight problem with that because when you determine level adjustment, part of what you're looking at is the spread of abilities and bonuses over the course of the character's hit dice and/or levels. Getting all of the special abilities of a creature without any hit dice can be unbalancing in and of itself. For example, a creature with 6 HD and a lot of spell-like abilities and/or bonuses is somewhat less overpowered than one with 1 HD and all the same abilities. It's like giving a character class all the abilities they would get over the course of 6 levels - that's frontloaded, and not particularly good design.

Savage Species was designed with this in mind. You'll notice that the monster levels they include in that book spread out abilities so that you don't start with them all at once.

Cheers,
Cam
#10
brimstone
Jun 15, 2004 9:54:08 Sorry, you misunderstood.

Since all those skill points and feats are associated with the HD (to be treated like 4 levels of Centaur, or what not)...when I said leave the hit die out, I mean to include all the skills and feats that came along with it.

Essentially...I want to take a centaur, 1st level Ranger and treat it like a non-monstrous humanoid race. So, they'll get their normal racial bonuses and such like elves and dwarves, and they'll get their natural hoof attacks, but they won't get any extra HD or the abilities that come along with them (skills, feats, saves, etc.)

Do you think that would unbalance the party? Yes the centaur would be more powerful...but not by as much, and, if I recall correctly, within DMG limits (were under normal circumstances).

What do ya think?

(oh, and the reason we're not doing Savage Species is 'cause I don't have it. And, I'd still be stuck with the same LA 2 problem anyway, right? :D)
#11
cam_banks
Jun 15, 2004 10:10:28
Originally posted by Brimstone

Essentially...I want to take a centaur, 1st level Ranger and treat it like a non-monstrous humanoid race. So, they'll get their normal racial bonuses and such like elves and dwarves, and they'll get their natural hoof attacks, but they won't get any extra HD or the abilities that come along with them (skills, feats, saves, etc.)

I didn't misunderstand - I know you didn't mean to include the skills and feats etc. But, the race itself is designed to be a 4HD monster, and so some of the abilities it has as a race are 'balanced' by being attached to 4 hit dice. Much as a 5th level wizard is attached to their spells and so forth, you wouldn't give them all of those at 1st level (even if you ditched the skill points and hit points etc).

So, if you removed the hit dice, you may be forced to boost the level adjustment up by +1 to account for the additional power that was previously smoothed out by 4 HD worth of monster. See what I mean?

Cheers,
Cam
#12
brimstone
Jun 15, 2004 11:04:58
Originally posted by Cam Banks
So, if you removed the hit dice, you may be forced to boost the level adjustment up by +1 to account for the additional power that was previously smoothed out by 4 HD worth of monster. See what I mean?

Ah ha...okay, so I was the one misunderstanding.

Hmm...I could see the adding +1 (wasn't the centaur a +3 LA in 3.0e anyway?) Damn...maybe I should take a look at Savage Species...it's just another $40 I was hoping I wouldn't have to spend.
#13
karui_kage
Jun 15, 2004 17:18:49 Savage Species is a good buy. It has served for the basis of many monster progressions my group and I have made ourselves, and its relatively easy to convert any previous progressions into 3.5.

If I remember correctly, the centaur progression in the MM is 3.5 compatible, save for maybe a couple skill name changes.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Jun 12, 2004 20:41:06	I am wondering if anybody knows if there is errata on the dragonlance campaign setting like Ogres having a listed +2 level adjustment and you are instructed to add +6 to your level. Minotaurs get no level adjustment (although this not that unusual). I am just wondering there seems to be some interestig things that don't mesh with other things I have read.
#2 theredrobedwizard Jun 12, 2004 21:06:47	Ogres have racial Hit Dice. 4 HD + 2 LA = +6 -TRRW
#3 zombiegleemax Jun 13, 2004 1:32:52	I see that makes sense. I always thought that was worked into the adjustment. The Psionic handbook would then need to do that for Thri Kreen as well, Thanks.
#4 brimstone Jun 14, 2004 10:02:15	Originally posted by kreenrunner I see that makes sense. I always thought that was worked into the adjustment. The Psionic handbook would then need to do that for Thri Kreen as well, Thanks. It used to be. This is a new rule for 3.5e. So LAs and ECLs were adjusted accordingly.
#5 karui_kage Jun 14, 2004 22:41:42	Yeah. It's a bit redundant, but the formula total is: Hit Dice + Level Adjustment = Total Level Adjustment. Total Level Adjustment + Class Levels = ECL (Effective Character Level). ECL is the basis for experience points. So a character that had 2 levels of fighter, 4 hit dice from monstrous humanoid, and a +2 level adjustment, would be an effective 8th level character, and gain experience accordingly.
#6 cam_banks Jun 14, 2004 22:58:28	Originally posted by Karui_Kage Yeah. It's a bit redundant, but the formula total is: Hit Dice + Level Adjustment = Total Level Adjustment. Total Level Adjustment + Class Levels = ECL (Effective Character Level). This is almost right. Level adjustment = level adjustment. LA plus Hit Dice and Class Levels = Effective Character Level. Hit dice are considered equivalent to class levels for all purposes, adding together to determine the number of feats a character has, their base attack bonus and saves, the skill cap, etc etc. Level adjustment affects none of these and is purely for determining how many experience points are needed to advance and the character's expected level of wealth. Cheers, Cam
#7 karui_kage Jun 14, 2004 23:02:54	Yeah. It means the same in the end, its really a matter of how you look at it. For simplicity's sake, in my games whenever a player wants a monstrous race, I always tell them to add the Hit Dice and Level Adjustment to figure out the total adjustment that they need to add to their classes for character level. Just a difference in wording really.
#8 brimstone Jun 15, 2004 9:28:41	Originally posted by Cam Banks Hit dice are considered equivalent to class levels for all purposes, adding together to determine the number of feats a character has, their base attack bonus and saves, the skill cap, etc etc. So...what is your opinion of leaving the Hit Dice out so that a party of 3 first level characters can have a centaur of ECL 3 (instead of 7) to start off and not completely unbalance the party? (I was thinking the DMG said a 2 level difference was okay).
#9 cam_banks Jun 15, 2004 9:44:05	Originally posted by Brimstone So...what is your opinion of leaving the Hit Dice out so that a party of 3 first level characters can have a centaur of ECL 3 (instead of 7) to start off and not completely unbalance the party? (I was thinking the DMG said a 2 level difference was okay). Well, there's a slight problem with that because when you determine level adjustment, part of what you're looking at is the spread of abilities and bonuses over the course of the character's hit dice and/or levels. Getting all of the special abilities of a creature without any hit dice can be unbalancing in and of itself. For example, a creature with 6 HD and a lot of spell-like abilities and/or bonuses is somewhat less overpowered than one with 1 HD and all the same abilities. It's like giving a character class all the abilities they would get over the course of 6 levels - that's frontloaded, and not particularly good design. Savage Species was designed with this in mind. You'll notice that the monster levels they include in that book spread out abilities so that you don't start with them all at once. Cheers, Cam
#10 brimstone Jun 15, 2004 9:54:08	Sorry, you misunderstood. Since all those skill points and feats are associated with the HD (to be treated like 4 levels of Centaur, or what not)...when I said leave the hit die out, I mean to include all the skills and feats that came along with it. Essentially...I want to take a centaur, 1st level Ranger and treat it like a non-monstrous humanoid race. So, they'll get their normal racial bonuses and such like elves and dwarves, and they'll get their natural hoof attacks, but they won't get any extra HD or the abilities that come along with them (skills, feats, saves, etc.) Do you think that would unbalance the party? Yes the centaur would be more powerful...but not by as much, and, if I recall correctly, within DMG limits (were under normal circumstances). What do ya think? (oh, and the reason we're not doing Savage Species is 'cause I don't have it. And, I'd still be stuck with the same LA 2 problem anyway, right? :D)
#11 cam_banks Jun 15, 2004 10:10:28	Originally posted by Brimstone Essentially...I want to take a centaur, 1st level Ranger and treat it like a non-monstrous humanoid race. So, they'll get their normal racial bonuses and such like elves and dwarves, and they'll get their natural hoof attacks, but they won't get any extra HD or the abilities that come along with them (skills, feats, saves, etc.) I didn't misunderstand - I know you didn't mean to include the skills and feats etc. But, the race itself is designed to be a 4HD monster, and so some of the abilities it has as a race are 'balanced' by being attached to 4 hit dice. Much as a 5th level wizard is attached to their spells and so forth, you wouldn't give them all of those at 1st level (even if you ditched the skill points and hit points etc). So, if you removed the hit dice, you may be forced to boost the level adjustment up by +1 to account for the additional power that was previously smoothed out by 4 HD worth of monster. See what I mean? Cheers, Cam
#12 brimstone Jun 15, 2004 11:04:58	Originally posted by Cam Banks So, if you removed the hit dice, you may be forced to boost the level adjustment up by +1 to account for the additional power that was previously smoothed out by 4 HD worth of monster. See what I mean? Ah ha...okay, so I was the one misunderstanding. Hmm...I could see the adding +1 (wasn't the centaur a +3 LA in 3.0e anyway?) Damn...maybe I should take a look at Savage Species...it's just another $40 I was hoping I wouldn't have to spend.
#13 karui_kage Jun 15, 2004 17:18:49	Savage Species is a good buy. It has served for the basis of many monster progressions my group and I have made ourselves, and its relatively easy to convert any previous progressions into 3.5. If I remember correctly, the centaur progression in the MM is 3.5 compatible, save for maybe a couple skill name changes.