Core Cosmology...Planescape...MotP - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Core Cosmology...Planescape...MotP

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Jun 13, 2004 21:42:53 I am preparing to run my first full fledged 3.5 edition Planescape campaign. But first, I have a few questions.

The Core cosmology is based on the Greyhawk cosmology. Given that, I will only be using the Greyhawk deities (there is enough of them). Does anyone know of a listing of all official Greyhawk deities?

Wasn't Gruumsh Lawful Evil?

How are the Harmonium and Greyhawk linked?

In your opinion, what are the biggest problems I will have using exclusively Greyhawk deities?

What was the name of the Harmonium fort that slipped from the prime to Mechanus? What world was that in?

I hate roleplaying the Dabus. I hate dealing with the whole rebus thing. Any suggestions on how to handle this in 3.5 edition?

Any suggestion will be appreciated.

Biomage
#2
factol_rhys_dup
Jun 13, 2004 22:26:15 Your biggest problems using Greyhawk deities will probably be a lack of diversity. Granted, I don't know all--or, probably, even most--of the Greyhawk pantheon, but it will not fill the planes as nicely as the huge population of Planescape powers did.

The Harmonium, according to a number of allusions in different sources, came from the Prime world of Ortho, which is today extremely lawful and extremely human-centric, though even some lawful evil species like beholders have risen to power, instead of elves and the like, though they cooperate.

If you don't want to take extra time in Dabus encounters (especially in the case of unexpected encounters) just have the characters make Int checks at DC 15 to understand the rebus. Failure, and they can't figure out what the creatures are saying.
#3
Ryltar_Swordsong
Jun 13, 2004 22:32:24 The Harmonium are from a prime world called Ortho. No connection to Greyhawk.

It wasn't a Harmonium fort, it was the entire third layer of Arcadia.

Gruumsh was LE in 2e, but he was changed to CE in 3e for some reason.
#4
gray_richardson
Jun 13, 2004 22:42:34 The RPGA has a site for the Living Greyhawk campaign that has a list of all the official Greyhawk deities. Check out this link:

http://www.living-greyhawk.com/

and click the files button or try this link:

http://www.living-greyhawk.com/Downloads/Living%20Greyhawk%20Deitires%201.3.pdf
#5
sildatorak
Jun 13, 2004 23:07:39
Originally posted by Ryltar Swordsong
Gruumsh was LE in 2e, but he was changed to CE in 3e for some reason.

In 2e orcs were lawful evil, but with the shift of their racial alignment to chaotic evil, it makes sense that their deity would shift as well.
#6
Ryltar_Swordsong
Jun 13, 2004 23:11:14
Originally posted by Sildatorak
In 2e orcs were lawful evil, but with the shift of their racial alignment to chaotic evil, it makes sense that their deity would shift as well.

And the reason the orcs changed alignment was?
#7
factol_rhys_dup
Jun 13, 2004 23:20:20 Chaotic evil is nastier, and orcs are brutish bad guys, so they needed a nasty alignment. Who knows? I personally thought they worked better when they were militaristic and vicious, but now that's hobgoblins.
#8
Ryltar_Swordsong
Jun 14, 2004 0:02:36 I wouldn't say CE is nastier, just more unpredictable. LE can be just as nasty, and be cold and methodical about it.
#9
sildatorak
Jun 14, 2004 0:55:17
Originally posted by Ryltar Swordsong
And the reason the orcs changed alignment was?

It seems in 3e that they are a lot more of an "unstoppable horde" concept rather than a "warlike tribe" concept. 2e usually depicted them with a little less savage fury and a little more plotting viciousness. I don't know why they went with that change, though.
#10
Ryltar_Swordsong
Jun 14, 2004 1:30:33 That was mostly a rhetorical question. So far, the reason for the Orcish alignment change is just another unexplained edition change.
#11
Shemeska_the_Marauder
Jun 14, 2004 3:14:00
Originally posted by Ryltar Swordsong
That was mostly a rhetorical question. So far, the reason for the Orcish alignment change is just another unexplained edition change.

Not that we've had aaaaanything like that happen lots in 3e, not at all.
#12
zombiegleemax
Jun 14, 2004 5:04:37 I've heard these three reasons given postulated at various times on these boards for the alignment change of orcs:
WotC wanted to showcase their new barbarian class by making it associated with a 'standard' D&D monster, and thought that the orc was the best candidate.
WotC wanted to simplify the traditional Orc vs Elf conflict into a fight between Good and Evil, without a Law vs Chaos axis.
They wanted to forcibly divorce D&D orcs from Tolkien's Uruk-Hai, who seemed fairly tactical (from the films at least; it's been a long time since I read the books).
I don't know which one of these is true, if any, and I can't remember whether any WotC employee has confirmed any of them (although the third sounds quite reasonable, given the similar changes made to halflings).
#13
kilamar
Jun 14, 2004 6:16:28
Originally posted by Biomage
The Core cosmology is based on the Greyhawk cosmology. Given that, I will only be using the Greyhawk deities (there is enough of them).

Why limit yourself?

Originally posted by Biomage
In your opinion, what are the biggest problems I will have using exclusively Greyhawk deities?

Lack of diversity. Missing out some real fun adversaries who are linked to specific gods.

Originally posted by Biomage
I hate roleplaying the Dabus. I hate dealing with the whole rebus thing. Any suggestions on how to handle this in 3.5 edition?

Do not deal with them if you do not have to.
In our PS campaign, that is regularily taking place in Sigil, we spoke to Dabus once in 20 sessions.

Kilamar
#14
ohtar_turinson
Jun 14, 2004 9:13:06
Originally posted by Bandido
They wanted to forcibly divorce D&D orcs from Tolkien's Uruk-Hai, who seemed fairly tactical (from the films at least; it's been a long time since I read the books).

I thought that the Chaotic Evil works much better for the orcs; in Tolkien's works the orcs fight among themselves constantly, and only work together for survival or when commanded by a powerful leader. This is especially clear on the road to Isengard, where the orcs fight each other to determine which way they go, and at the tower of Cirith Ungol, in which the tower's orcs fight each other to the death over Frodo's possessions.

That's hardly lawful... and the ravening horde of orcs was established in The Hobbit during the Battle of Five Armies and the Silmarillion during the various massive battles.

I would guess that the change to LE was originally an attempt to seperate from LotR and Tolkien's other writings, not the shift to CE.
#15
gray_richardson
Jun 14, 2004 12:26:46 I thought it had something to do with making their favorite class Barbarian. CE Orcs are much more suited to the Barbarian class. LE doesn't work very well for that.

All the reasons that Bandido gives above seem legit and well-reasoned to me. I prefer chaotic Orcs myself.
#16
zombiegleemax
Jun 14, 2004 15:39:18 For those of you that do not think that there is not enough depth in Greyhawk's deities to run an entirely core cosmology Planescape, keep in mind, there are more than 60 Greyhawk deities.

Besides, most Pantheons have the same type of gods with a different twist.

Anyway...In MotP, it mentions that Luthic would "send forth her plagues from deep within the heart of the cube". Why would Luthic do that? Do you think they meant Yurtrus?
#17
factol_rhys_dup
Jun 14, 2004 16:38:25
Originally posted by Bandido
...(although the third sounds quite reasonable, given the similar changes made to halflings).

\
Remember back when halflings were furry-footed short people who never wore shoes?

Ahem *pulls out old 2nd Edition Player's Handbook*: "Halflings are sturdy and industrious, generally quiet and peaceful. Overall they prefer the comforts of home to dangerous adventuring. They enjoy good living, rough humor, and homespun stories... Halflings see wealth only as a means of gaining creature comforts, which they love. Though they are not overly brave or ambitious, they are generally honest and hard working when there is need... Halfling homes are well-furnished burrows, although most of their work is done on the surface..."

There were multiple halfling families, with names like Stout, Tallfellow, and Hairfoot.

A lot of their abilities were taken right from the books.
They can throw rocks well. They can sneak around quietly when not around noisier party members (which Bilbo does exactly against the three trolls). They can resist venoms and poisons.

One of the monsters from the 2e MM actually mentioned hobbits, I believe, as a reference for size.
#18
primemover003
Jun 14, 2004 17:29:15 I like the CE Gruumsh. Even though it puts a big ? on the Battle Cube...

Hobs were always a better LE humanoid. Orcs are Barbaric marauders, the strong dominating the weak. Better concept.

Halflings are better now too... I always found Kender more intriguing than sedentary Hobbits. The FR Hin races are the best blend of the different halfling archetypes.

Greyhawk has some cool gods, but they don't tend to fit adventurers as well as FR or even the real world gods. I always felt they needed more description... I would've rather had Tritherion be the CG pick over Kord... but that's just me.
#19
ripvanwormer
Jun 14, 2004 22:40:49 See http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=lg/downloads for a downloadable list of all Oerth's (the world of Greyhawk) deities, with domains and so on.

Oh, there's plenty of them. You have no idea.

The Harmonium are linked with Greyhawk primarily by the worship of Saint Cuthbert. The Hardheads probably discovered the Saint after entering the Planes and colonizing Arcadia, but they found they fit together like bread and butter and another piece of bread with butter on it.

Also, I treat Ortho as if it's an alternate-history future version of Oerth (note the similarity in names), where the equivalents of the nations of Furyondy and Veluna merge to form the nexus from which the new Ortho was forged. And there are a bunch of other differences.

See History of Ortho here.

More on Ortho here.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Jun 13, 2004 21:42:53	I am preparing to run my first full fledged 3.5 edition Planescape campaign. But first, I have a few questions. The Core cosmology is based on the Greyhawk cosmology. Given that, I will only be using the Greyhawk deities (there is enough of them). Does anyone know of a listing of all official Greyhawk deities? Wasn't Gruumsh Lawful Evil? How are the Harmonium and Greyhawk linked? In your opinion, what are the biggest problems I will have using exclusively Greyhawk deities? What was the name of the Harmonium fort that slipped from the prime to Mechanus? What world was that in? I hate roleplaying the Dabus. I hate dealing with the whole rebus thing. Any suggestions on how to handle this in 3.5 edition? Any suggestion will be appreciated. Biomage
#2 factol_rhys_dup Jun 13, 2004 22:26:15	Your biggest problems using Greyhawk deities will probably be a lack of diversity. Granted, I don't know all--or, probably, even most--of the Greyhawk pantheon, but it will not fill the planes as nicely as the huge population of Planescape powers did. The Harmonium, according to a number of allusions in different sources, came from the Prime world of Ortho, which is today extremely lawful and extremely human-centric, though even some lawful evil species like beholders have risen to power, instead of elves and the like, though they cooperate. If you don't want to take extra time in Dabus encounters (especially in the case of unexpected encounters) just have the characters make Int checks at DC 15 to understand the rebus. Failure, and they can't figure out what the creatures are saying.
#3 Ryltar_Swordsong Jun 13, 2004 22:32:24	The Harmonium are from a prime world called Ortho. No connection to Greyhawk. It wasn't a Harmonium fort, it was the entire third layer of Arcadia. Gruumsh was LE in 2e, but he was changed to CE in 3e for some reason.
#4 gray_richardson Jun 13, 2004 22:42:34	The RPGA has a site for the Living Greyhawk campaign that has a list of all the official Greyhawk deities. Check out this link: http://www.living-greyhawk.com/ and click the files button or try this link: http://www.living-greyhawk.com/Downloads/Living%20Greyhawk%20Deitires%201.3.pdf
#5 sildatorak Jun 13, 2004 23:07:39	Originally posted by Ryltar Swordsong Gruumsh was LE in 2e, but he was changed to CE in 3e for some reason. In 2e orcs were lawful evil, but with the shift of their racial alignment to chaotic evil, it makes sense that their deity would shift as well.
#6 Ryltar_Swordsong Jun 13, 2004 23:11:14	Originally posted by Sildatorak In 2e orcs were lawful evil, but with the shift of their racial alignment to chaotic evil, it makes sense that their deity would shift as well. And the reason the orcs changed alignment was?
#7 factol_rhys_dup Jun 13, 2004 23:20:20	Chaotic evil is nastier, and orcs are brutish bad guys, so they needed a nasty alignment. Who knows? I personally thought they worked better when they were militaristic and vicious, but now that's hobgoblins.
#8 Ryltar_Swordsong Jun 14, 2004 0:02:36	I wouldn't say CE is nastier, just more unpredictable. LE can be just as nasty, and be cold and methodical about it.
#9 sildatorak Jun 14, 2004 0:55:17	Originally posted by Ryltar Swordsong And the reason the orcs changed alignment was? It seems in 3e that they are a lot more of an "unstoppable horde" concept rather than a "warlike tribe" concept. 2e usually depicted them with a little less savage fury and a little more plotting viciousness. I don't know why they went with that change, though.
#10 Ryltar_Swordsong Jun 14, 2004 1:30:33	That was mostly a rhetorical question. So far, the reason for the Orcish alignment change is just another unexplained edition change.
#11 Shemeska_the_Marauder Jun 14, 2004 3:14:00	Originally posted by Ryltar Swordsong That was mostly a rhetorical question. So far, the reason for the Orcish alignment change is just another unexplained edition change. Not that we've had aaaaanything like that happen lots in 3e, not at all.
#12 zombiegleemax Jun 14, 2004 5:04:37	I've heard these three reasons given postulated at various times on these boards for the alignment change of orcs: WotC wanted to showcase their new barbarian class by making it associated with a 'standard' D&D monster, and thought that the orc was the best candidate. WotC wanted to simplify the traditional Orc vs Elf conflict into a fight between Good and Evil, without a Law vs Chaos axis. They wanted to forcibly divorce D&D orcs from Tolkien's Uruk-Hai, who seemed fairly tactical (from the films at least; it's been a long time since I read the books). I don't know which one of these is true, if any, and I can't remember whether any WotC employee has confirmed any of them (although the third sounds quite reasonable, given the similar changes made to halflings).
#13 kilamar Jun 14, 2004 6:16:28	Originally posted by Biomage The Core cosmology is based on the Greyhawk cosmology. Given that, I will only be using the Greyhawk deities (there is enough of them). Why limit yourself? Originally posted by Biomage In your opinion, what are the biggest problems I will have using exclusively Greyhawk deities? Lack of diversity. Missing out some real fun adversaries who are linked to specific gods. Originally posted by Biomage I hate roleplaying the Dabus. I hate dealing with the whole rebus thing. Any suggestions on how to handle this in 3.5 edition? Do not deal with them if you do not have to. In our PS campaign, that is regularily taking place in Sigil, we spoke to Dabus once in 20 sessions. Kilamar
#14 ohtar_turinson Jun 14, 2004 9:13:06	Originally posted by Bandido They wanted to forcibly divorce D&D orcs from Tolkien's Uruk-Hai, who seemed fairly tactical (from the films at least; it's been a long time since I read the books). I thought that the Chaotic Evil works much better for the orcs; in Tolkien's works the orcs fight among themselves constantly, and only work together for survival or when commanded by a powerful leader. This is especially clear on the road to Isengard, where the orcs fight each other to determine which way they go, and at the tower of Cirith Ungol, in which the tower's orcs fight each other to the death over Frodo's possessions. That's hardly lawful... and the ravening horde of orcs was established in The Hobbit during the Battle of Five Armies and the Silmarillion during the various massive battles. I would guess that the change to LE was originally an attempt to seperate from LotR and Tolkien's other writings, not the shift to CE.
#15 gray_richardson Jun 14, 2004 12:26:46	I thought it had something to do with making their favorite class Barbarian. CE Orcs are much more suited to the Barbarian class. LE doesn't work very well for that. All the reasons that Bandido gives above seem legit and well-reasoned to me. I prefer chaotic Orcs myself.
#16 zombiegleemax Jun 14, 2004 15:39:18	For those of you that do not think that there is not enough depth in Greyhawk's deities to run an entirely core cosmology Planescape, keep in mind, there are more than 60 Greyhawk deities. Besides, most Pantheons have the same type of gods with a different twist. Anyway...In MotP, it mentions that Luthic would "send forth her plagues from deep within the heart of the cube". Why would Luthic do that? Do you think they meant Yurtrus?
#17 factol_rhys_dup Jun 14, 2004 16:38:25	Originally posted by Bandido ...(although the third sounds quite reasonable, given the similar changes made to halflings). \ Remember back when halflings were furry-footed short people who never wore shoes? Ahem pulls out old 2nd Edition Player's Handbook: "Halflings are sturdy and industrious, generally quiet and peaceful. Overall they prefer the comforts of home to dangerous adventuring. They enjoy good living, rough humor, and homespun stories... Halflings see wealth only as a means of gaining creature comforts, which they love. Though they are not overly brave or ambitious, they are generally honest and hard working when there is need... Halfling homes are well-furnished burrows, although most of their work is done on the surface..." There were multiple halfling families, with names like Stout, Tallfellow, and Hairfoot. A lot of their abilities were taken right from the books. They can throw rocks well. They can sneak around quietly when not around noisier party members (which Bilbo does exactly against the three trolls). They can resist venoms and poisons. One of the monsters from the 2e MM actually mentioned hobbits, I believe, as a reference for size.
#18 primemover003 Jun 14, 2004 17:29:15	I like the CE Gruumsh. Even though it puts a big ? on the Battle Cube... Hobs were always a better LE humanoid. Orcs are Barbaric marauders, the strong dominating the weak. Better concept. Halflings are better now too... I always found Kender more intriguing than sedentary Hobbits. The FR Hin races are the best blend of the different halfling archetypes. Greyhawk has some cool gods, but they don't tend to fit adventurers as well as FR or even the real world gods. I always felt they needed more description... I would've rather had Tritherion be the CG pick over Kord... but that's just me.
#19 ripvanwormer Jun 14, 2004 22:40:49	See http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=lg/downloads for a downloadable list of all Oerth's (the world of Greyhawk) deities, with domains and so on. Oh, there's plenty of them. You have no idea. The Harmonium are linked with Greyhawk primarily by the worship of Saint Cuthbert. The Hardheads probably discovered the Saint after entering the Planes and colonizing Arcadia, but they found they fit together like bread and butter and another piece of bread with butter on it. Also, I treat Ortho as if it's an alternate-history future version of Oerth (note the similarity in names), where the equivalents of the nations of Furyondy and Veluna merge to form the nexus from which the new Ortho was forged. And there are a bunch of other differences. See History of Ortho here. More on Ortho here.