How would this work in RL where detecting evil is much much different?
Opinions?
Originally posted by TheMrBlack
How would this work in RL where detecting evil is much much different?
It won't work. No mortal magic can detect moral alignment in Ravenloft, and this ability is no exception.
That being said, I would allow this to function like the paladin's Detect Evil, since the character is, after all, exalted. This means that I would allow the character to detect Innocents and evil outsiders with this ability.
Next level, I plan on having the character get the Nemesis feat from BoED; this allows a character to sense the presence of one of his favored enemies within 60', enough to pinpoint it (to the specific square it is in, I think). Being a stalker of Kharash, of course that chosen enemy will be evil creatures. He wouldn't be sensing them by alignment but rather by virtue of them being a favored enemy. Would this also be foiled?
Side question:
Is alignment detection foiled entirely in RL, or is evil just detected everywhere?
mephistopheless,
Is outlander the term for a character from one of the Prime worlds, & not native to RL? (It sounds like it is.) Well, he isn't native to RL.
maybe you should play faerun if you want all kinds of abilities.
Forgotten Realms does have a PrC (a Harper-type, I think) that also allows evil as a favored enemy too. Don't much care for the PrC or Harpers though. The Realms have pretty much jumped the shark IMO.
(The stalker of Kharash's favored enemy bonus is only +1, & can't be increased by gaining new levels of ranger or almost any other PrC class I can think of, except for the above one, limiting the total bonus to +2.)
Just use the guidelines given under the altered magic detecting good/evil and everything will work out.
Originally posted by saucercrab
I am playing the stalker in TheMrBlack's game.
Next level, I plan on having the character get the Nemesis feat from BoED; this allows a character to sense the presence of one of his favored enemies within 60', enough to pinpoint it (to the specific square it is in, I think). Being a stalker of Kharash, of course that chosen enemy will be evil creatures. He wouldn't be sensing them by alignment but rather by virtue of them being a favored enemy. Would this also be foiled?
Side question:
Is alignment detection foiled entirely in RL, or is evil just detected everywhere?
Alignment detection doesn't work in Ravenloft in terms of good/evil. You can still detect for law/chaos, which has been useful to my players in the past. "Hey, he's lawful. So we know that he's likely to keep his word."
I've seen DMs interpret the inability to detect good or evil as the idea that the demiplane is so infused with evil that everything "detects as evil" as you said. But that is DM interpretation. I'd simply ask the DM which way he/she is running it.
In my opinion, the ability to detect a favored enemy would not be foiled by the Demiplane. There are Ravenloft specific Prestige Classes that give similiar abilities. However, I would have to say that a favored enemy cannot be "all evil creatures." If I'm not mistaken, a favored enemy has to be a specific creature type, like the ones found on p. 47 of the Player's Handbook.
If the class allowed one to actually choose "evil" as a designator for favored enemies then I would rule that the ability would be foiled. The inability to detect or locate "good" or "evil" creatures is central to the idea of Ravenloft. And yes, even if you are locating/detecting by virtue of a creature being a favored enemy.
Again, this is only my take on it. Your DM is the ultimate authority on the matter.
The idea that not everything is black and white...and even the 'good' crusader against evil has to be careful not to make mistakes...and the suspense that you don't know which noble is truely an evil person etc etc
you take that out of ravenloft and you start getting really close to faerun...and thats scary.
How do you expect to incorporate that if you disallow things that may not work with the standard ideals of Ravenloft.
To me, the most critical aspect of RAvenloft isn't where someone came from, but how they react when thrust into a new realm, one of which they can't escape, filled with unspeakable horrors. Not whether or not someone can detect evil.
Also, the question was how would you think it would work, not whether or not you liked it.
Pg 106 RLPhB
"any attempt to detect a target's moral alignment automatically fails"
This is ravenloft...of course its your game...you can mess around with the rules however you like.
Also, the dark powers (or the GM
) can pervert a paladin's detect evil into a different sort of detection without the paladin's knowledge. A good example of this is the Darklord Elena Faith-hold who detects hostile emotions against herself. Remember that this detection ability either reads "positive" or "negative" in most situations, so a paladin could go on for years not knowing she is detecting something else. Hope this helps
Originally posted by TheMrBlack
One of the greatest aspects in my eyes of Ravenloft is the fact that the mists select people from a myriad of worlds, including faerun. How do you expect to incorporate that if you disallow things that may not work with the standard ideals of Ravenloft.
As for the former sentance, I would agree that a great aspect of Ravenloft is its ability to select people from all sorts of different worlds. This factor allows players and DMs to bring in all sorts of different concepts and ideas that might not work for other campaign settings.
However, Ravenloft is still its own unique world with its own unique rules and guidelines. If you want to play in a campaign setting where you can play any race and class without restrictions, then Ravenloft probably isn't the setting to use. Planescape would be a much better fit if that is what you are looking for...
Originally posted by TheMrBlack
To me, the most critical aspect of RAvenloft isn't where someone came from, but how they react when thrust into a new realm, one of which they can't escape, filled with unspeakable horrors. Not whether or not someone can detect evil.
Perhaps not, but the inability to detect evil is one of the other greatest aspects of the setting. A large part of Ravenloft is having people determine the truth of things through research and intuition. They cannot merely rely on a couple of spells and special abilities to learn the truth... If they could, then you could just as easily play a gothic horror based adventure in Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms.
However, I am certainly not trying to tell you how to play your Ravenloft campaign. I am merely trying to articulate the point that seems to have been lost as the discussion continued. As the DM, you are always welcome to change things to fit what you and your players want. I merely would recommend that you don't drop this rule because a player wants such-and-such an ability.
Originally posted by TheMrBlack
Also, the question was how would you think it would work, not whether or not you liked it.
And to actually answer your initial question, I would point to Malus Black's response near the top. I too would say that using the modified paladin's detect evil ability would be the best substitute.
Originally posted by saucercrab
Next level, I plan on having the character get the Nemesis feat from BoED. Being a stalker of Kharash, of course that chosen enemy will be evil creatures. He wouldn't be sensing them by alignment but rather by virtue of them being a favored enemy. Would this also be foiled?
I would say that this is a matter of DM's perogative, since it would be up to him to determine how badly this might upset his Ravenloft campaign. Normally, I would say that this would be foiled in Ravenloft.
No matter how you want to phrase it, the Stalker of Karesh would still be sensing these creatures by their alignement and not just because they're his favored enemy (albeit they would be considered both). How does he know his favored enemy unless it is by sensing their alignment? Evil creatures don't necessarily look a certain way; whereas orcs or dragons would have distinguishing features.
I suppose one could argue that the Stalker of Karesh could smell his targets, but both the Scent of Evil ability and the Nemesis feat use supernatural powers (not just extraordinary abilities. I would highly doubt that the Dark Powers would overlook this, although your dungeon master might be willing to.
Overall, you need to find something that works for you and your group. By the rules, these abilities shouldn't function normally or at all in Ravenloft. Sadly, some things just aren't meant to fit this setting (and the Stalker of Karesh seems to be one of those bad fits). While I doubt that this completely answers your questions, I do hope that it helps.
Ravenloft is not like that.
Even the undead are shielded from detection...they get will saves to avoid having magic deem them to be undead...
Moral dilemmas are at the heart of a ravenloft game.
If you want it in your game thats fine...but then you wouldn't be asking us if you should...
there are no surprises when you can just detect evil...evil is supposed to be insiduous. Its horrifying to find out truely what something is the hard way...or to find out that your trusted friend or ally is in fact the bad guy...or has just been corrupted by evil and is too ashamed/diabolical to let anyone know.
How can people be corrupted into evil ways if there are paladins walking around detecting everyone who is evil...most of the time people turn to evil b/c they think they can hide it.
And in ravenloft they can...until the power gets out of control.
Half of the dread possibilities and other plot hooks in ravenloft would be gone if you could just detect alignments.
saying that b/c they are from another realm they should be able to use their powers is the same as saying that they can just leave the plane with a spell/ability they got before entering.
Merely having nasty beasties doesn't make a game horrific. Gothic stories require the unknown...for that is what is most horrifying.
Originally posted by Rucht_Lilavivat
I've seen DMs interpret the inability to detect good or evil as the idea that the demiplane is so infused with evil that everything "detects as evil" as you said. But that is DM interpretation. I'd simply ask the DM which way he/she is running it.
Okay.
So TheMrBlack,
How are ya' doin' it?
Originally posted by Rucht_Lilavivat
However, I would have to say that a favored enemy cannot be "all evil creatures." If I'm not mistaken, a favored enemy has to be a specific creature type, like the ones found on p. 47 of the Player's Handbook.
If the class allowed one to actually choose "evil" as a designator for favored enemies then I would rule that the ability would be foiled. The inability to detect or locate "good" or "evil" creatures is central to the idea of Ravenloft. And yes, even if you are locating/detecting by virtue of a creature being a favored enemy.
Yes, the stalker of Kharash at 2nd level gains all evil creatures as a favored enemy. The idea behind the class is that it hunts evil, & being an exalted PrC, it's very good at it (except, apparently in RL ;) ).
To all,
I can dig the fact that my character's sensing abilities should be negated while in RL; as an absolute it makes sense. Thanks for the insight.
So it ends up being all good...
...and we also let that hunter face such horrible dilemmas when mists rise and ALL turns evil, what do you do? will you shoot that innocent little girl who seems to have EEEVIL aura around her having just stabbed her little brother, and what if you do shoot that little girl and then the curtain falls and you se what you actually have done...
...RL has ways with dealing characters who think they do what's right, RL makes them hesitate, RL takes their beliefs, their dreams, their goals and twists these into something that makes ghosts cry...
I say we let that evil hunter face the greatest evil of all times - himself;)
Originally posted by Malus Black
It won't work. No mortal magic can detect moral alignment in Ravenloft, and this ability is no exception.
That being said, I would allow this to function like the paladin's Detect Evil, since the character is, after all, exalted. This means that I would allow the character to detect Innocents and evil outsiders with this ability.
Hmm, how about Sense Horror.
If the target has failed a horror check and is still under its influence (obsessed, suffering nightmares, et al) they show up on the radar.
Of course, you wouldn't tell your players this. Just let them rock along and kill people already in a world of horror. It is subtle in misleading players, and also useful once understood, parhaps pointing at witnesses to events, victims of enemies, etc, etc, etc.
Originally posted by TheMrBlack
Um, ok Troile, one of the greatest aspects in my eyes of Ravenloft is the fact that the mists select people from a myriad of worlds, including faerun.
How do you expect to incorporate that if you disallow things that may not work with the standard ideals of Ravenloft.
To me, the most critical aspect of Ravenloft isn't where someone came from, but how they react when thrust into a new realm, one of which they can't escape, filled with unspeakable horrors. Not whether or not someone can detect evil.
Also, the question was how would you think it would work, not whether or not you liked it.
This is only part of Ravenloft. The "greatest aspect" is subjective but as you say the reaction of players/characters to this strange new world is your favorite part. And one of the altered things of this strange new world is that you cannot (CANNOT!!) tell the good from the bad with the wave of your hand and some magic.
The bad may be your friend or your ally, and the good may be what you are fighting against by accident of fate. If you can just close your eyes and detect evil then you know the innocent flower girl is really a 200 year old brain eating vampire. Or something.
I think every Ravenloft fan is on board with this.
So how to change the ability is the question. I'd avoid making it mime Faith-hold, her ability should be special, unique. It is less of a curse if every paladin has it.
The Stalker should definetly be able to sense evil Outsiders, such as demons and devils and Paris Hilton, but I would not allow it to detect innocents, as the PrC is designed around the hunting and killing of evil not the protection of good.
My thoughts:
* Give the player a bonus when he fights something he knows to be evil, or perhaps a Smite Evil special ability.
* He can sense the remnants of evil, actions done in the past that have left a black mark. So instead of sensing current evil he can sense pass misdeeds, the intensity of the evil-doers blackness and actions by examining the scene. Handy if trying to tell if something was an accident or on purpose.
* Sense when people are hiding something, as in theory those who are evil have the most to hide. Or perhaps the ability to detect lies based on a DC roll. Outright lies that is, not half-truths or misdirection.
Originally posted by Troile
of course it also states that anything with its ability to detect good or evil taken away should be given another ability to compensate for it.
So it ends up being all good...
Damn, I've got to take a look at the RL main book. Is it appropriate for a player to go through it?
Kyylik,
You got a thing for having paladins (& paladin-types) always fall from grace in RL?
The_Jester,
FYI, the stalker of Kharash PrC does get a bonus vs evil creatures & also accumulates smites vs. evil at higher levels.
I really don't mind losing the ability to sense evil; the loss doesn't break the character (or its concept). If TheMrBlack wants to handle the sitch' like a paladin's detect evil (what with only detecting evil outsiders & such), then it'll prob' just be gravy on top.
(And it's not like my character is the goodest in the group either...there are gooder folk.
And I don't care if goodest & gooder aren't real words.)
I'll chime in with a few cents.
First like most of the community on the boards I agree that (1) PCs with the easy ability to detect evil in RL is a no-no and defeats the general purpose of the setting, (2) the Stalkers abilities are a bad fit for RL, (3) the abilities of this guys prestige class ought to be moddified - probably in ways the player won't initially know about - so that the character still gains useful and/or unique abilities, and (4) the new abilities are probably less useful in absolute terms than the old abilities but probably just as useful in relative terms within the setting (eg. in a world where no one can tell good from evil recognizing the truely innocent and the malefic extraplanar fiend in a tremendous boon).
Several ways have been mentioned on how to handle detect evil. I often prefer to change such powers to "detect law" but its certainly not the only way to go.
Another option might be to let the PC detect sink holes of evil. "Whoa! That house full of lament is bad news". Of course as a player you probably already knew that.
Another, possibly trickier option might be to let the PCs detect lingering evil auras as under the detect evil spell. It might tell you that someone really evil was in a room recently. If there are multiple people there, it won't tell you who was evil. And the auras will fade rapidly unless "great evil" stains the area for an extended period of time.
As for smiting and attack bonuses against evil creatures...I have to confess a strong dislike for the concept in RL. Its too black and white, and doesn't carry risks of abuse.
But it seems an easy fix to change it to an attack bonus/smite ability against anything that would provokes a fear or horror check from a typical NPC. There are a couple of good points to this approach. (1) You still get to smite the vampire/werewolf/*thing* at the end of the day (maybe literally) as its true face is shown. (2) You can't use this changed ability as a de-facto detect evil. In fact (3) you might hit something you wouldn't want to in a "perfect world"...for example that creepy Caliban might be worth a horror or fear check from the local townsmen but really its just an NPC seeking reveneg for what the *thing* did in the last town it passed through.
-Eric Gorman
PS - Champions of Light is probably a better resource that BoED for purer than thou heroes in RL.
PPS - the Dark Powers (the intangible, undetectable neo god/rulers of all of RL) love to mess with "true heroes" nearly as much as they like to mess with "true villians." Isolde and the Carnival anyone? By playing an exalted or blessed PC in RL you are asking to be personally tested by the DPs and perhaps be cursed so that your greatest desire is always frustrated.