Monster/Racial HD, Class Levels, CLs, LAs, and ECLs - my explanation: - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Jun 15, 2004 11:41:10	There's been enough questions about this again, that I feel I should make a thread, to help out those who are confused by these things. This is the explanation I have for my own group of players. I don't include CR's or EL's in this, but this should help make some sense of it all (I hope): Class Levels: The number of levels a character has in a specific class. Monster (or Racial) Hit Dice (Monter or Racial HD's): Two of the standard races in Dark Sun have what's referred to as Monster HD's or Racial HD's. These are treated as levels, but are not related to any specific class. They give the character vitality points, skill points, and increase his Character Level (see below). Thri-Kreen have 2 Monster HD's, while Half-Giants have 3 Monster HD's. Character Levels (CL's): This is the total of all of the character's Class Levels plus any Monster HD's. So, while a Human Ranger 2/Psychic Warrior 2 would result in a CL of 4, a Thri-Kreen Ranger 2/Psychic Warrior 2 would actually have a CL of 6 (because of the 2 Monster HD's the Thri-Kreen has). Character Levels determine the character's maximum skill ranks for class and cross-class skills, when they would automatically get a new feat (one feat at first level, and one every three levels starting at level three), as well as when the character gains a new ability point (one every four levels, starting at level 4). Level Adjustments (LA's): This is a method for dertimining how a character gains experience, and how difficult the character can supposedly handle encounters. Level Adjustments are similar to Monster (or Racial) HD's, except that they do not grant vitality points, skill points, nor increase his Character Level. They simply affect experience-related issues for the character, and increase the character's Effective Character Level (see below). Level Adjustments are given based on the power of a character's racial abilities, and any race with a Level Adjustment is considered more powerful than races without them. Not all races are the same, and there are four races which give Level Adjustments: Mul, Aarakocra, Half-Giant and Thri-Kreen. Effective Character Levels (ECL's): This is a combination of the character's CL's and LA's. This is used to determine exactly how much experience a character needs to make a new level, and what level the character is effectively treated as for the purposes of anything related to experience, as well as what encounter level or challenge ratings the character can handle.
#2 superpriest Jun 15, 2004 13:04:43	I don't include CR's or EL's in this Right, they have no relationship to ECL. This all looks pretty good. I would add that, ideally, no PC should start play with a higher ECL than any other. A thri-kreen in a 1st-level starting party should have his racial HD and LA broken into a Savage Progression. This means that 1) the thri-kreen player gets something to do at level-up (which is more exciting) and 2) the other PCs don't have to deal with a super character until ECLs even out (most important).
#3 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Jun 15, 2004 13:21:10	Well, I start my Dark Sun campaigns at an ECL of 4. This means that a Half-Giant and Thri-Kreen, using the TK from the XPH and Nytcrawlr's modified HG, means they have no class levels at all when they start out. Using the ones from Athas.org, you can start at ECL of 3 and get the same effect.
#4 superpriest Jun 15, 2004 15:10:59	Yes, my campaign started at level 3. I made a Savage Progression for the XPH thri-kreen, but other LA races weren't affected. (I have jozhal and mul PCs.)
#5 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Jun 15, 2004 15:42:04	I really dislike the savage progression system in Savage Species, so I simply don't use it, myself.
#6 superpriest Jun 15, 2004 16:40:08	For logical reasons, I'm guessing. In terms of gameplay, it works perfectly.
#7 nytcrawlr Jun 15, 2004 17:22:17	Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm I really dislike the savage progression system in Savage Species, so I simply don't use it, myself. You're not the only one, but I've decided not to be against it if a player wants to do it with a given race that is too high to start out with, etc.
#8 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Jun 15, 2004 19:43:01	Originally posted by superpriest For logical reasons, I'm guessing. In terms of gameplay, it works perfectly. It disrupts the normal level of "suspension of disbelief" I like to keep in my games. It really makes no sense how it functions in the setting, and seems like a bandaid being placed over something to make an exception to the levelling "crutch" that the d20 system uses. If players want to play higher-powered races, they have to either play a low-leveled character until they get to a point which then they can switch out, or they keep their other character. As it is, I compensate for all the "standard" Dark Sun races in the beginning of my campaign anyway. Anything more powerful, they just have to wait.
#9 irdeggman Jun 17, 2004 5:10:16	The Savage Progression system has been adopted by WotC for more than SS (Savage Species). The following link gets to the WotC web page that gives adaptations of all LA templates from the MM and the LA races from the DMG (3.5). http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a It is indeed a 'bandaid' but is necessary in order to allow players balance when creating starting characters. If one player is allowed to play an ECL 3 character when another is only allowed a ECL 1 then the players will feel 'shafted'. If all are allowed to start at ECL 3 then everything works out fine. My take on the ECL definitions is as follows: ECL (Effective Character Level) = class level + Monster Hit dice + LA (Level Adjustment) Class level - obviously the total levels of all classes a character has Monster hit dice - 'bonus' hit dice that some monster races receive at creation. This basically reflects the inherent physical toughness of the race in question. Like half-giants, Bugbears, etc. LA (Level adjustment) - This reflects the 'intangibles' that a race receives that sets them up as more 'powerful' than the reference standard (i.e., human). This includes things like natural attacks, unbalanced ability score adjustments, fast healing, etc. ECL is used to determine the EL (Effective Level) of the party. EL (Effective Level) {of the party} - Is the average of the ECL of each partymember. Actually it is the average + 1 for every 2 members over 4 (I got this latter one from Skip Williams). EL is used to determine the appropriate CR of an encounter. Experience awards are now awarded individually (3.5) and the characters ECL is what is used to determine it. ECL is only used for determining EL {of the party}, exp awards, and the point on which the character enters the exp table for class advancement.
#10 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Jun 17, 2004 6:50:59	Originally posted by irdeggman The Savage Progression system has been adopted by WotC for more than SS (Savage Species). The following link gets to the WotC web page that gives adaptations of all LA templates from the MM and the LA races from the DMG (3.5). http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a It is indeed a 'bandaid' but is necessary in order to allow players balance when creating starting characters. If one player is allowed to play an ECL 3 character when another is only allowed a ECL 1 then the players will feel 'shafted'. If all are allowed to start at ECL 3 then everything works out fine. Umm.... just because they have a spot on their website where they provide the rules, doesn't mean it's been totally integrated into the system (thank god). As it doesn't allow for the suspension of disbelief at levels which I'd even remotely desire, I plain don't use it. That doesn't mean it's not there - I just don't use it. My players don't ask about it - and if they did, I'd say no. It's not a hard concept to comprehend to grasp. It's not used in my campaigns - period. My take on the ECL definitions is as follows: ECL (Effective Character Level) = class level + Monster Hit dice + LA (Level Adjustment) Which is what I said. However, I said it hopefully in a less confusing way to those who keep asking about it. Class level - obviously the total levels of all classes a character has Incorrect. Class Levels specifically are referring to the levels one has within a specific class. Character Level is the combined total of class levels a character has, as well as monster/racial hit dice. Monster hit dice - 'bonus' hit dice that some monster races receive at creation. This basically reflects the inherent physical toughness of the race in question. Like half-giants, Bugbears, etc. Which is what I said up there, only you decided to add in a slightly different set of examples. Last I checked, there were no bugbears on Athas :P LA (Level adjustment) - This reflects the 'intangibles' that a race receives that sets them up as more 'powerful' than the reference standard (i.e., human). This includes things like natural attacks, unbalanced ability score adjustments, fast healing, etc. Pretty close, if potentially confusing to those who don't understand what you are getting at. ECL is used to determine the EL (Effective Level) of the party. Umm, err.... the correct term you are looking for is "Encounter Level". EL (Effective Level) {of the party} - Is the average of the ECL of each partymember. Actually it is the average + 1 for every 2 members over 4 (I got this latter one from Skip Williams). EL is used to determine the appropriate CR of an encounter. Once again, the word you are looking for is "Encounter" not "Effective" in this case. Encounter Levels are used to calculate how many creatures, at what Challenge Rating the party can handle. This is mutually exclusive to experience rewards, however does use the ECL of the party's members to help calculate it. Experience awards are now awarded individually (3.5) and the characters ECL is what is used to determine it. ECL is only used for determining EL {of the party}, exp awards, and the point on which the character enters the exp table for class advancement. ECL is used for deterining the EL that the party can handle, as well as the XP-related details for each character, and the amount of money they should have at each level (comparitively). Mind you - this isn't something subjective as a "take" - this is what the DMG says. Check it out sometime if you don't believe me.
#11 irdeggman Jun 17, 2004 16:09:25	xlorepdarkhelm You are absolutely accurate. The reason I mentioned bugbears was that even though there aren't any on Athas people in general are more likely to 'envision' that example since almost everyone started playing standard D&D before picking up the supior Dark Sun. But I didn't realize that I wasn't supposed to post my opinion on the subject, reworded some of yours but essentially saying the same thing. IMO two different writing styles can make the understanding easier.
#12 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Jun 17, 2004 16:41:39	Originally posted by irdeggman xlorepdarkhelm You are absolutely accurate. The reason I mentioned bugbears was that even though there aren't any on Athas people in general are more likely to 'envision' that example since almost everyone started playing standard D&D before picking up the supior Dark Sun. But I didn't realize that I wasn't supposed to post my opinion on the subject, reworded some of yours but essentially saying the same thing. IMO two different writing styles can make the understanding easier. I didn't say you couldn't. However, there were some inaccuracies in what you posted. EL is unrelated to XP awards, for instance. I have found, in my experience, that people get nervous when math is used directly to explain something. Which is why I have described them, not simply shown the formulas to them. I know that there are many people who get confused over these, as well as CR and EL (two things specific more to things you encounter, not the characters themselves). You gave your version, and I gave a response to it. Simple as that. It wasn't anything about you not being able to post your opinion on the subject.

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

xlorepdarkhelm_dup

Jun 15, 2004 11:41:10

There's been enough questions about this again, that I feel I should make a thread, to help out those who are confused by these things. This is the explanation I have for my own group of players. I don't include CR's or EL's in this, but this should help make some sense of it all (I hope):

Class Levels:
The number of levels a character has in a specific class.

Monster (or Racial) Hit Dice (Monter or Racial HD's):
Two of the standard races in Dark Sun have what's referred to as Monster HD's or Racial HD's. These are treated as levels, but are not related to any specific class. They give the character vitality points, skill points, and increase his Character Level (see below). Thri-Kreen have 2 Monster HD's, while Half-Giants have 3 Monster HD's.

Character Levels (CL's):
This is the total of all of the character's Class Levels plus any Monster HD's. So, while a Human Ranger 2/Psychic Warrior 2 would result in a CL of 4, a Thri-Kreen Ranger 2/Psychic Warrior 2 would actually have a CL of 6 (because of the 2 Monster HD's the Thri-Kreen has). Character Levels determine the character's maximum skill ranks for class and cross-class skills, when they would automatically get a new feat (one feat at first level, and one every three levels starting at level three), as well as when the character gains a new ability point (one every four levels, starting at level 4).

Level Adjustments (LA's):
This is a method for dertimining how a character gains experience, and how difficult the character can supposedly handle encounters. Level Adjustments are similar to Monster (or Racial) HD's, except that they do not grant vitality points, skill points, nor increase his Character Level. They simply affect experience-related issues for the character, and increase the character's Effective Character Level (see below). Level Adjustments are given based on the power of a character's racial abilities, and any race with a Level Adjustment is considered more powerful than races without them. Not all races are the same, and there are four races which give Level Adjustments: Mul, Aarakocra, Half-Giant and Thri-Kreen.

Effective Character Levels (ECL's):
This is a combination of the character's CL's and LA's. This is used to determine exactly how much experience a character needs to make a new level, and what level the character is effectively treated as for the purposes of anything related to experience, as well as what encounter level or challenge ratings the character can handle.

superpriest

Jun 15, 2004 13:04:43

I don't include CR's or EL's in this

Right, they have no relationship to ECL. This all looks pretty good.

I would add that, ideally, no PC should start play with a higher ECL than any other. A thri-kreen in a 1st-level starting party should have his racial HD and LA broken into a Savage Progression. This means that 1) the thri-kreen player gets something to do at level-up (which is more exciting) and 2) the other PCs don't have to deal with a super character until ECLs even out (most important).

xlorepdarkhelm_dup

Jun 15, 2004 13:21:10

Well, I start my Dark Sun campaigns at an ECL of 4. This means that a Half-Giant and Thri-Kreen, using the TK from the XPH and Nytcrawlr's modified HG, means they have no class levels at all when they start out. Using the ones from Athas.org, you can start at ECL of 3 and get the same effect.

superpriest

Jun 15, 2004 15:10:59

Yes, my campaign started at level 3. I made a Savage Progression for the XPH thri-kreen, but other LA races weren't affected. (I have jozhal and mul PCs.)

xlorepdarkhelm_dup

Jun 15, 2004 15:42:04

I really dislike the savage progression system in Savage Species, so I simply don't use it, myself.

superpriest

Jun 15, 2004 16:40:08

For logical reasons, I'm guessing. In terms of gameplay, it works perfectly.

nytcrawlr

Jun 15, 2004 17:22:17

Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
I really dislike the savage progression system in Savage Species, so I simply don't use it, myself.

You're not the only one, but I've decided not to be against it if a player wants to do it with a given race that is too high to start out with, etc.

xlorepdarkhelm_dup

Jun 15, 2004 19:43:01

Originally posted by superpriest
For logical reasons, I'm guessing. In terms of gameplay, it works perfectly.

It disrupts the normal level of "suspension of disbelief" I like to keep in my games. It really makes no sense how it functions in the setting, and seems like a bandaid being placed over something to make an exception to the levelling "crutch" that the d20 system uses. If players want to play higher-powered races, they have to either play a low-leveled character until they get to a point which then they can switch out, or they keep their other character. As it is, I compensate for all the "standard" Dark Sun races in the beginning of my campaign anyway. Anything more powerful, they just have to wait.

irdeggman

Jun 17, 2004 5:10:16

The Savage Progression system has been adopted by WotC for more than SS (Savage Species).

The following link gets to the WotC web page that gives adaptations of all LA templates from the MM and the LA races from the DMG (3.5).

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a

It is indeed a 'bandaid' but is necessary in order to allow players balance when creating starting characters. If one player is allowed to play an ECL 3 character when another is only allowed a ECL 1 then the players will feel 'shafted'. If all are allowed to start at ECL 3 then everything works out fine.

My take on the ECL definitions is as follows:

ECL (Effective Character Level) = class level + Monster Hit dice + LA (Level Adjustment)

Class level - obviously the total levels of all classes a character has

Monster hit dice - 'bonus' hit dice that some monster races receive at creation. This basically reflects the inherent physical toughness of the race in question. Like half-giants, Bugbears, etc.

LA (Level adjustment) - This reflects the 'intangibles' that a race receives that sets them up as more 'powerful' than the reference standard (i.e., human). This includes things like natural attacks, unbalanced ability score adjustments, fast healing, etc.

ECL is used to determine the EL (Effective Level) of the party.

EL (Effective Level) {of the party} - Is the average of the ECL of each partymember. Actually it is the average + 1 for every 2 members over 4 (I got this latter one from Skip Williams). EL is used to determine the appropriate CR of an encounter.

Experience awards are now awarded individually (3.5) and the characters ECL is what is used to determine it.

ECL is only used for determining EL {of the party}, exp awards, and the point on which the character enters the exp table for class advancement.

#10

xlorepdarkhelm_dup

Jun 17, 2004 6:50:59

Originally posted by irdeggman
The Savage Progression system has been adopted by WotC for more than SS (Savage Species).

The following link gets to the WotC web page that gives adaptations of all LA templates from the MM and the LA races from the DMG (3.5).

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a

It is indeed a 'bandaid' but is necessary in order to allow players balance when creating starting characters. If one player is allowed to play an ECL 3 character when another is only allowed a ECL 1 then the players will feel 'shafted'. If all are allowed to start at ECL 3 then everything works out fine.

Umm.... just because they have a spot on their website where they provide the rules, doesn't mean it's been totally integrated into the system (thank god). As it doesn't allow for the suspension of disbelief at levels which I'd even remotely desire, I plain don't use it. That doesn't mean it's not there - I just don't use it. My players don't ask about it - and if they did, I'd say no. It's not a hard concept to comprehend to grasp. It's not used in my campaigns - period.

My take on the ECL definitions is as follows:

ECL (Effective Character Level) = class level + Monster Hit dice + LA (Level Adjustment)

Which is what I said. However, I said it hopefully in a less confusing way to those who keep asking about it.

Class level - obviously the total levels of all classes a character has

Incorrect. Class Levels specifically are referring to the levels one has within a specific class. Character Level is the combined total of class levels a character has, as well as monster/racial hit dice.

Monster hit dice - 'bonus' hit dice that some monster races receive at creation. This basically reflects the inherent physical toughness of the race in question. Like half-giants, Bugbears, etc.

Which is what I said up there, only you decided to add in a slightly different set of examples. Last I checked, there were no bugbears on Athas :P

LA (Level adjustment) - This reflects the 'intangibles' that a race receives that sets them up as more 'powerful' than the reference standard (i.e., human). This includes things like natural attacks, unbalanced ability score adjustments, fast healing, etc.

Pretty close, if potentially confusing to those who don't understand what you are getting at.

ECL is used to determine the EL (Effective Level) of the party.

Umm, err.... the correct term you are looking for is "Encounter Level".

EL (Effective Level) {of the party} - Is the average of the ECL of each partymember. Actually it is the average + 1 for every 2 members over 4 (I got this latter one from Skip Williams). EL is used to determine the appropriate CR of an encounter.

Once again, the word you are looking for is "Encounter" not "Effective" in this case. Encounter Levels are used to calculate how many creatures, at what Challenge Rating the party can handle. This is mutually exclusive to experience rewards, however does use the ECL of the party's members to help calculate it.

Experience awards are now awarded individually (3.5) and the characters ECL is what is used to determine it.

ECL is only used for determining EL {of the party}, exp awards, and the point on which the character enters the exp table for class advancement.

ECL is used for deterining the EL that the party can handle, as well as the XP-related details for each character, and the amount of money they should have at each level (comparitively).

Mind you - this isn't something subjective as a "take" - this is what the DMG says. Check it out sometime if you don't believe me.

#11

irdeggman

Jun 17, 2004 16:09:25

xlorepdarkhelm

You are absolutely accurate. The reason I mentioned bugbears was that even though there aren't any on Athas people in general are more likely to 'envision' that example since almost everyone started playing standard D&D before picking up the supior Dark Sun.

But I didn't realize that I wasn't supposed to post my opinion on the subject, reworded some of yours but essentially saying the same thing. IMO two different writing styles can make the understanding easier.

#12

xlorepdarkhelm_dup

Jun 17, 2004 16:41:39

Originally posted by irdeggman
xlorepdarkhelm

You are absolutely accurate. The reason I mentioned bugbears was that even though there aren't any on Athas people in general are more likely to 'envision' that example since almost everyone started playing standard D&D before picking up the supior Dark Sun.

But I didn't realize that I wasn't supposed to post my opinion on the subject, reworded some of yours but essentially saying the same thing. IMO two different writing styles can make the understanding easier.

I didn't say you couldn't. However, there were some inaccuracies in what you posted. EL is unrelated to XP awards, for instance. I have found, in my experience, that people get nervous when math is used directly to explain something. Which is why I have described them, not simply shown the formulas to them. I know that there are many people who get confused over these, as well as CR and EL (two things specific more to things you encounter, not the characters themselves). You gave your version, and I gave a response to it. Simple as that. It wasn't anything about you not being able to post your opinion on the subject.