a) making sure your players get a few friends within Hommlet. Not only will it help them in the long run, it will also convince them that helping those friends rather than searching for easier targets is a worthy endeavor.
b) being aware of a few ToEE's spies within the village (names kept secret in case players look here)
c) understanding the Moathouse isn't "just" another dungeon but an advanced base for ToEE's minions, and their commanders is arrogant but not a moron.
Beyond that, don't worry. It's only by the end of the Moathouse part that your players should start to get hints the ToEE isn't as "ruined" as it should be...
One thing about T1-4, if you're not up on the dynamics of the groups in the dungeon and how they react to each other, the module is in danger of becoming nothing but a dungeon crawl. But once you're at least roughly familiar with the rest and the rivalries between the elemental cults, you can then try to emphasize that aspect so that it doesn't become just another dungeon crawl full of smashing in doors and creating a body count with no real story.
His original idea was for Lolth to be involved with the temple, but changed his mind after Q1, so he came up with Zuggtmoy instead. I'd reccomend removing all of the Lolth references theroughout the adventure, and make Lareth in the moathouse a cleric of Zuggtmoy.
Scott
Scott
Originally posted by ScottyG
I think it would be better if everybody pretended RttToEE never happened.
Scott
What never happend?
Ken
I second the motion to delay the action long enough to get yourself well-versed on the Temple and its factions. Get the PCs involved in the town, develop some side treks based off of Hommelet.
ToEE is most assuredly more than a dungeon crawl....
Tony
One thing I like about this module are the rules for recruitment of new troops by the Temple if the PCs are slow to press their attack. I also recommend redrawing all the maps yourself and marking where all the monsters/characters are located. It helped me pseudo memorize the general layout of the place.
To help myself keep track of it all, I also made out a list of all the factions within the Temple and the commanders and troops allied with each. It helps to see exactly who has how much power within the Temple's hierarchy, and who might react given the PC's actions.
I didn't find Lolth's involvement that unusual, given that the religion of Elemental Evil stole away her worshippers in the Against the Giants campaign. I just figured she wanted to spy on Zuggtmoy's plans. I merely found it strange that a Male Human could become one of her clerics.
I also want to know if Lareth had to go through the process of belonging to one of the Elements before being posted at the Moathouse, or was he exempt because of his great skills?
Actually I have my own questions:
1: If you were trying to revive the Temple of Elemental Evil, how would you deal with a group of adventurers who were systematically wiping out entire arms of your organization? If you woke up one day and found out that the entire Earth Temple was wiped out by six or seven people, what would your next move be? Certainly if the players are staying near Nulb one might try to kill them as they rested. But if that failed why would you stick around waiting for them to blunder into the Greater Temple? I imagine Hedrack and Senshock would wish to out of fear of their masters, but what about the rank and file? Why not just desert a lost cause?
2: Who is really in the know about the reality behind the religion of "Elemental Evil?" I assume that most people in the temple's employ don't realize that they are worshipping Zuggtmoy, but who does? Hedrack, Senshock and possibly Falrinth seem like good candidates, but what about the head priests of the Element Themed Temples? What about Commander Barkinar or Deggum? If the PC's ask Lareth what "Elemental Evil" is all about: How much does Lareth really know? Anyone have any suggestions on this?
Originally posted by Burgoyne
1: If you were trying to revive the Temple of Elemental Evil, how would you deal with a group of adventurers who were systematically wiping out entire arms of your organization? If you woke up one day and found out that the entire Earth Temple was wiped out by six or seven people, what would your next move be? Certainly if the players are staying near Nulb one might try to kill them as they rested. But if that failed why would you stick around waiting for them to blunder into the Greater Temple? I imagine Hedrack and Senshock would wish to out of fear of their masters, but what about the rank and file? Why not just desert a lost cause?
The rank and file of the different elemental cults are told what they need to know by their "high priest". Given all those cults are in direct competition, once one disappears chances are the leaders of its allied cults will say it was done by their enemy, while the enemy cults will claim they did it (thereby demonstrating their great power).
That's in the event ONE cult is wiped out. If a second, and then a third follow, the survivors will start to react differently. But even then, it depends on the paranoia of their leader(s). Will they dare tell Hedrack about it, which could mean a painful one-way trip to the nodes? Or will they try to solve the situation by themselves, perhaps by allying with another cult they called "enemy" just the day before?
IMHO, it will depend mainly on how fast things happen. If one cult or dungeon level is wiped out every day, they will have trouble coming up with a plan to counter the threat. If, on the other hand, the adventurers take their time (say, a few room cleared out per day or week), then the response will be much more organized and deadly.
Clearly, people aren't going to wait in one room to be slaughtered!
Originally posted by OleOneEye
I would like to save confrontation with the spies in Hommlet for later development, they are currently merely watching what the PCs are up to, not taking any actions against them yet.
That's exactly the point. Those spies are there to spy, not murder (well, not right away ..
). Besides, their job makes it very easy to interact with the PCs. IMHO, it's only when the PC become a pain in the *** for the ToEE's leaders that the spies will be told to take direct action. Nothing as frustrating to a player as watching someone they considered a long-time ally turn into a deadly enemy.Right now they are preparing for their first assault on the temple itself. They cleared out the Moathouse, a timely critical hit from Elmo's axe sending Lareth's head flying. However the cleric of Cuthbert took his armor, and wore it about Hommlett prominently, so an assassin is now hunting him.
I also ran In Search of the Unknown to boost the party up a bit more before taking on the temple, and that resulted in said cleric now being an elf instead of human. (Enough gold for a reincarnate from Jaroo, not enough for a raise dead off in Verbobonc.)
As for RttToEE, I look forward to inflicting that on them at a later time. While it may be a bit "off" from what was originally intended, it is still an excellent module. The real question will be how much of that do I need to change based on how well this group does.
I played the first one in first edition and loved it...
Originally posted by coolraygun
Was Return to the Temple of EE all that bad? I have almost picked it up a couple of times...
I played the first one in first edition and loved it...
As a stand-alone adventure, I really don't think it's that bad. As an actual return to the Temple of Elemental Evil adventure set in the WoG I hated it.
Scott
Originally posted by ScottyG
As a stand-alone adventure, I really don't think it's that bad. As an actual return to the Temple of Elemental Evil adventure set in the WoG I hated it.
Scott
The thing is, if you don't know the apocrypha about the EEG, Tharizdun, Tzuggtmoy, and whatever else is relevant to the ToEE, then there is no reason to view it as not being a proper sequel.
Indeed, even if you do know that apocrypha, you may not agree with it, and Return still stands on its own and does not contradict anything.
I would also point out that according to the background text of ToEE, the module was resolved in a particular fashion in Gygax's campaign. Unless you intend to either not run the module at all, or force players to specifically recreate that resolution in some manner then any way you resolve it in your campaign is not going to fit. Since I don't consider a forced resolution to be playing, as with the original DL modules, and certain NPC driven modules for other settings, the changes in RttToEE are minor to irrelevant. Indeed shifting the plot to be completely in accord with the intent of the apocrypha requires only two or three lines of alternative text. It takes more to "fix" the Vault of the Drow in DG, and that is an even better module.
Originally posted by GT
Nonetheless... Equating Tharizdun with the Elder Elemental God in "Return" was too much for me to stomach! I'm not certain what the intent was, but--better luck next time! If you want an example of a good "sequel module", see Bruce Cordell's Return to Tomb of Horrors.
Which still has no context for anyone who doesn't know or care about the apocrypha relating to the Temple.
And that's fine - for you. But to tell other people the module is no good because of outside information is unfair to them and their enjoyment of it.
Return to the Tomb of Horrors was good. As was Return to White Plume Mountain. (That second being more amazing as I never liked the original.) Both of course have their little quirks relating to geography and history. And I am sure there are many people who wouldn't give them a chance based purely on that, without regard for the quality of the rest of the module.
As for the question of how to run the Temple when the heroes start slaughtering with abandon, I don't want to give away too much as my group has just finished one assault on the Temple itself, but in general remember the following.
They are Chaotic and in competition, so their response will be disjointed and independent.
They will continue to recruit followers until wiped out, so cleared areas won't stay that way, and existing areas will become tougher.
They will spy on the heroes, and will prepare specific responses to them.
Many encounters are extremely difficult to begin with. Enhance them, and you guarantee the destruction of the party. So don't feel bad letting a few sleeping Temple dogs lie to give the party half a chance.
Originally posted by GT
Actually, if you run Return by itself, it can work; but if you do indeed run it as a sequel it doesn't take a knowledge of apocrypha to spot the inconsistensies. You can choose to ignore them--and that's fine--but having run the original, I said "What's the point?" Another example: A certain vampire in the module...
Only if you assume said vampire can not exist because of a particular resolution in your previous running. Last I checked, my copy of ToEE didn't include a specific resolution for said vampire. And should he be "resolved" during the current run through, guess what? I'll delete him from the sequel. Just like the reappearance of Lareth in the sequel will feature the axe critting that happened rather than the mace crushing indicated in RttToEE.
Not that difficult at all.
I did like Return To White Plume Mountain BTW, as well as the original... interesting take on the formerly undetailed lower levels! ^__^
I liked the link to Gates of Firestorm Peak. Cordell's work, despite the quirks, works nicely in GH.
Monte Cook's work does too, though the scope of his plots are usually so big as to work better in PS.
on a side note the Lareth in my adventure WAS killed by a mace quite brutally too.
At the end of the session they seemed confident that they would be able to head back to town to rest, but now they're going to have to fight their way out of the place without a cleric.
The players are also terribly afraid of Green Slime now, and travel no where without at least two lit torches. Hee hee.
