1) what's up with the sudden turn in the dualistic nature of the world. Pre-war of souls, it was Neutrality and evil and good ect. If good got too strong, it bacame evil, evil was a necessary aspect of Krynn. dualsim
now after, many things have changed, prompting a big pile of wtf:
the authors have now stated that Chaos was in fact Ionthas, a lesser (but still uber) diety who was insane and that somehow Reorx messed up by thinking he was Chaos.
the Highlord was essentially Lord Ao of FR, a diety that represented the uncaring but fair essence of law. Now he's been changed to be a lawful good uber who says that evil becomes good and so forth... a total turn around.
Raistlin had the staff of Magius for all those years off world. I thought Palin kept it after the gods left.
another point. the story originally states that they DID leave. Reox even foreshadowed it. Are they saying that Reorx was also an illusion of tak? For a diety that couldn't have been detected and was confirmed by the gods as having fled Krynn, she certainlywas around quite a bit.
And what about the sudden change in the tone and point of the the ending of Book two of the war of souls and all of book three?
suddenly this uncaring diety neutral diety suddenly turns out to be Tak? I would normally attribute this to good writing, but there is something undeniably forced there.
Regarding some of this stuff, I think the answer can be found in the real world. Hickman was trying to buy the rights from WTC at the time, but then the deal fell through suddenly, just as book two was about to come out. they then made another deal that stated that WTC would just renew Dragonlance as a product.
Here's what I think happened. Hickman and Weis had originally wanted to take the series in some bold new direction (only they would know what) but their new ideas were shot down when the deal to buy the rights fell through. And as a renewal was concerned, Dragonlance needed to have a closed cosmology and other changes in order to fit in with third edition. So they made last minute changes to the end of bood two and re wrote book three, making the culprit Tak, re working the cosmology to make the Highlord (who was essentially Lord Ao in the big multiverse of 2nd ed) into a diety of absolute good, and reworking the original dualism into a more western context. (evil serves to make good look, well, good, ect.) I think the original culprit intended for the One God was in fact the original persona of the high lord, who had seen that his presence was needed to bring about balance in the world. in the original makeup of the whole thing. Each diety was represented by a celestial sign (planet , constellation, moon) and the sun was not represented but paladine or Sirrion, but as the celestial symbol of the Highlord, who shone equally upon all and drove away the other celestial symbols. the new moon that appeared over Krynn after the Chaos war represented chaos' influence upon the world.
So, I might be wrong, but can more "initiated" fellows put some light upon my big pile of WTF? Am I alone in asking these questions? These problems seemed to stick like a sore thumb to me.
Originally posted by Ares
1) what's up with the sudden turn in the dualistic nature of the world. Pre-war of souls, it was Neutrality and evil and good ect. If good got too strong, it bacame evil, evil was a necessary aspect of Krynn. dualsim
Not sure what you are saying here. Dragonlance has always been of the balance between the three alignments. Still is to my knowledge.
the authors have now stated that Chaos was in fact Ionthas, a lesser (but still uber) diety who was insane and that somehow Reorx messed up by thinking he was Chaos.
Chaos/Ionthas are the same being, that from which the gods and the building blocks of Krynn came from. They just gave him a name other than Chaos.
the Highlord was essentially Lord Ao of FR, a diety that represented the uncaring but fair essence of law. Now he's been changed to be a lawful good uber who says that evil becomes good and so forth... a total turn around.
The Highgod may have been something akin to Ao during 2nd edition, but I don't think he was ever meant to be. We don't know much about the Highgod currently.
Raistlin had the staff of Magius for all those years off world. I thought Palin kept it after the gods left.
Not sure.
And what about the sudden change in the tone and point of the the ending of Book two of the war of souls and all of book three?
suddenly this uncaring diety neutral diety suddenly turns out to be Tak? I would normally attribute this to good writing, but there is something undeniably forced there.
I think you will find that that was the intent all along. Takhisis was masquerading as this "nice" One God until she no longer needed that guise.
Originally posted by Ares
1) what's up with the sudden turn in the dualistic nature of the world. Pre-war of souls, it was Neutrality and evil and good ect. If good got too strong, it bacame evil, evil was a necessary aspect of Krynn. Dualism
This feel came about when Takhisis stole the world. Without the gods to enforce the Balance, everything tipped to evil. Hence the dragon overlords had a field day.
the authors have now stated that Chaos was in fact Ionthas, a lesser (but still uber) diety who was insane and that somehow Reorx messed up by thinking he was Chaos.
As mentioned above, Chaos was given a name in the Vanished Moon appendix. Matthew Martin has told me that the name was inspired by Io, the ninefold dragon.
the Highlord was essentially Lord Ao of FR, a diety that represented the uncaring but fair essence of law. Now he's been changed to be a lawful good uber who says that evil becomes good and so forth... a total turn around.
While the High God may have some similarities with Ao, they are not the same. The Vanished Moon appendix is considered to be Paladine’s take on things, meaning his own views have put a bias in the writings.
I like to think of the High God as the ultimate representation of order and creation, whereas Chaos is the ultimate representation of destruction and, well….chaos.
Raistlin had the staff of Magius for all those years off world. I thought Palin kept it after the gods left.
This was retconned a bit, as the end of Summer Flame became an illusion when Takhisis stole the world.
another point. the story originally states that they DID leave. Reox even foreshadowed it. Are they saying that Reorx was also an illusion of tak? For a diety that couldn't have been detected and was confirmed by the gods as having fled Krynn, she certainly was around quite a bit.
Methinks dwarf spirits were involved…
*whistles* ;)
And what about the sudden change in the tone and point of the the ending of Book two of the war of souls and all of book three?
suddenly this uncaring diety neutral diety suddenly turns out to be Tak? I would normally attribute this to good writing, but there is something undeniably forced there.
Call it perspective.
Regarding some of this stuff, I think the answer can be found in the real world. Hickman was trying to buy the rights from WTC at the time, but then the deal fell through suddenly, just as book two was about to come out. they then made another deal that stated that WTC would just renew Dragonlance as a product.
Interesting theory, but to my knowledge, this never happened.
Anyway, I hope that helps. You’re right, there are some continuity glitches in there, although I think they did a fine job nonetheless.
Whatever the case, I’m really jazzed about the post-WoS look at DL.
and as when I say forced, I mean something that felt really inserted into the storyline....
And, yes, I am talking about the appendix. It really does state that Ionthas wasn't chaos, that Reorx was confused or something... Really smells fishy... and dwarf spirity...
Originally posted by Ares
Concerning the bis deal, it was all over dragonlance.com and dl3e.com at the time.
I think ye should stay out of the dwarf spirits.
If you're talking about Tracy's "big secret project" he guaranteed us time and time again that it had nothing to do with Dragonlance.Originally posted by Ares
And, yes, I am talking about the appendix. It really does state that Ionthas wasn't chaos, that Reorx was confused or something... Really smells fishy... and dwarf spirity...
It states that Ionthas wasn't "chaos" but Ionthas was "Chaos."
In the DLCS there is a spot in the cosmology called the "Void of Chaos." It's described as a big empty nothing and that beings stuck here would go insane. I like to think that this is where Ionthas was banished to by the High God. And, I'd like to think that Ionthas did indeed go crazy being trapped here...he began to think of himself as one with the Void...Ionthas became the very essence of chaos...he became Chaos (capital 'C'). This is also the spot that Reorx came to to capture the essence of chaos (not the lower case 'c'), as it was the only place left in the Krynn cosmos that was the pure chaos from before creation. Ionthas saw his opportunity for escape from the Void, and he entered the Greygem...and the rest, they say, is history.
Beyond that...Reorx went a little nuts and started confusing Chaos with chaos. Perhaps because Ionthas is such a powerful god (the anti-thesis to the High God, really) that his belief that he is chaos is so overpowering, that those around him begin to believe it too...or at the very least begin to doubt what they thought they knew to be true. Reorx, of course, got the worst of it, being present at his release.
That's how the history goes in my mind, anyway.
Originally posted by Ares
Concerning the bis deal, it was all over dragonlance.com and dl3e.com at the time.
and as when I say forced, I mean something that felt really inserted into the storyline....
And, yes, I am talking about the appendix. It really does state that Ionthas wasn't chaos, that Reorx was confused or something... Really smells fishy... and dwarf spirity...
Actually, Ionthas was Chaos, at least in some degree--whether the 'Chaos God' is identical with the Chaos from which the world was forged is a subject Paladine, Gilean, Majere, and Zivilyn had long debates about. (Short answer--they all agree there's some overlap, but the Neutrals think it was the remnant of the prime Chaos using Ionthas, the Good ones believe it to be the other way around. This is not canon, BTW.) The point where Reorx went insane (not confused, but mildly insane) was on Chaos being the Father of the Gods, High God, Father of All and Nothing, etc.
I wanted to give _some_ explanation for why Reorx kept calling Chaos "Himself" and "Allfather" during DoSF, and the only other one that suggested itself to my mind was that he was really the Dark Queen in disguise--and that seemed to me to be incredibly trite and predictable.
Matthew L. Martin
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
While the High God may have some similarities with Ao, they are not the same. The Vanished Moon appendix is considered to be Paladine’s take on things, meaning his own views have put a bias in the writings.
Paladine's scribe would like to note that he thinks most previous versions--from DLA to "Wanna Bet?" to TotL to the DLCS--suffer from a Neutralist bias. And the Irda learned their theology from the Queen of Darkness and never bothered to update it beyond the obvious. :-)
Matthew L. Martin
Also, I always saw the One God as being evil...even when she was doing good things, it just seemed...sinister to me. Especailly considering that she was leading the Knights of Neraka(the bad guys).
Originally posted by talinthas
heh. for me, the one god has always been equated to the hindu essence of creation, but i've written alot about that over the years =)
You mean the High God?