I really wish they would have just given it to SP. At the very least we would have gotten a higher quality book (with probably better art)...and maybe even an extra 30 pages.
Anyway, on a related topic, I notice Tiamat and Bahamut appear to be the main deities in Eberron. Just a point of interest.
Originally posted by Brimstone
So...I was looking at the online Eberron art galery and something struck me. While I like a good portion of the art in the DLCS on the whole...the quality of the Eberron art is light years ahead of what they put in the DLCS. So the question is...why did WotC not shell out the money for the quality art for the DLCS...and even go so far as to cut 32 pages from the book...and still charge us $40 for the thing? Why did they cheap out on the overall quality of the Dragonlance book compared to Forgotten Realms and Eberron...hell even Kalamar was better.
I really wish they would have just given it to SP. At the very least we would have gotten a high quality book (with probably better art)...and maybe even an extra 30 pages.
Anyway, on a related topic, I notice Tiamat and Bahamut appear to be the main deities in Eberron. Just a point of interest.
Because WoTC wanted nothing to do with Dragonlance-except when it comes to collecting some of the money. I believe that WoTC wanted to ruin DragonLance from the door so that THEIR first setting, Eberron, could outshine it. Although I seriously doubt if it will-Even though I like the setting(Eberron).
They did Ravenloft even worse because they basically pimped it out to WW and added no new content to Ravenloft. They also ceased the novel line that RL had which was a bad move. Those were some of the best books. I am kind of bittter about that since I chipped my DMing teeth on the RL boxed set in 2e. Yup RL was my FIRST DnD campaign. To this day I do not trust WoTC to do right by the settings that kept DnD alive for 30 years.
~~~
On the bright side Sovereign Press DL products are greatly improving.
Originally posted by Baron the Curse
I’m currently reading Eberron and while I do find the artwork of very high quality the Setting itself feels like a rather bland, hack-job. Yet, the book itself is far superior to the DLCS in everyway possible. With 11 (12 chapter being the adventures sample) chapters that detail the land and people in such a rich manner that for some reason DLCS couldn’t do. I’m not sure if the DLCS designers were restricted by Wizards or they where just cutting corners but for the same price the DLCS remains the poorest, less-detail campaign book in my shelf.
I would have to agree there. Without the huge novel base the DLCS is basically empty. They gave us little to no information on the various races of Krynn and the artwork was pretty bad. Again I think that WoTC may have had something to do with this, just as someone let me know that it was WoTC that had the map in the DLCS pulled at the last minute. It seems as if they were trying to sabotage the setting.
On the bright sight Sovereign Press DL products are greatly improving.
Yeah the AoM book was an improvement over the DLCS and the Bestiary I hear is better than the AoM.
~~~
Originally posted by Baron the Curse
the DLCS remains the poorest, less-detail campaign book in my shelf.
Well...I don't have any problems with the information in the book...just the book itself.
Oh...and technically, Loi, if you want to come right down to it, WotC didn't come up with Eberron either. They had a world designing contest...and this was the winner.
Although...what's the deal with Kalamar? Was it a WotC original?
Originally posted by Brimstone
Well...I don't have any problems with the information in the book...just the book itself.
Oh...and technically, Loi, if you want to come right down to it, WotC didn't come up with Eberron either. They had a world designing contest...and this was the winner.
Although...what's the deal with Kalamar? Was it a WotC original?
I know Brim-Keith Baker designed it-the designers name was big as all get out on the front cover. I was referring to the fact that this(Eberron) is the first setting that is not just being re-vamped by WoTC so they are pouring their all into it while denying other settings any backing.
KoK did not come about until WoTC took over the DnD scene. But I think it is made by another company.
~~~
2. Kingdoms of Kalamar is the creation of the folks over at Kenzer & Company. Several years before 3rd edition was released, Kalamar was sold as a system-independent fantasy world for any RPG. Kenzer are also the publishers of the Knights of the Dinner Table comic, and based on their cordial relations in the past with Wizards of the Coast they were given the rights to publish their Kalamar materials as a WOTC licensed property, as well as use the older AD&D rules for their own fantasy game, Hackmaster.
3. I like a lot of the art in the DLCS. Not as much as I like the art in the Eberron campaign setting, but then I think the trick with that was the decision to go with Magic: the Gathering artists for the conceptual art and later development, much as Elmore was in on the conceptual art team for Dragonlance 20 years ago. Eberron shows a greater focus on the part of Wizards of the Coast to produce a total package (incuding novels, media, computer games, etc) and the art budget must have been large enough to accomodate it.
Cheers,
Cam
3. I like a lot of the art in the DLCS. Not as much as I like the art in the Eberron campaign setting, but then I think the trick with that was the decision to go with Magic: the Gathering artists for the conceptual art and later development, much as Elmore was in on the conceptual art team for Dragonlance 20 years ago. Eberron shows a greater focus on the part of Wizards of the Coast to produce a total package (incuding novels, media, computer games, etc) and the art budget must have been large enough to accomodate it.
One of the main things I have been hearing about Eberron is that it is going to be the world that is focused on with the new DnD Online computer game(a.k.a. EverQuest 2).
I already have plans on picking up the Eberron Campaign Setting. The video game can stay on the shelf.
~~~
i thought Soverin press DID do the dlcs . . .
Originally posted by CNEFD
but....
i thought Soverin press DID do the dlcs . . .
They only wrote it. Wizards of the Coast were responsible for publishing...which included final edit and art.
I would like to say, though, feeling as I do about WotC's position on DL gaming, I do not think they are deliberately trying to sabotage it. That just seems silly.
(their setting, btw, while dull as dishwater, is still brilliantly detailed and fleshed out)
I like the art in the DLCS better then Eberon. The art in Eberon had this modernistic feel that I don't like- which, by the way, the art pieces that I don't like in the DLCS also has. I like more Elmore style stuff then the stuff thats been coming out. I don't know why, The new stuff just doesn't evoke anything for me.
There is no need to view every marketing initiative of WotC through the eyes of a slighted DragonLance fan.
The fact is that we DO have an "official" DL Wotc hardcover. We continue to receive new DL material from WotC in the form of novels and new gaming material from Sov Press. Marg Weis continue to be involved and that's all to the good.
While the packaging and art is not receiving the top treatment throughout every page, it's not a complete disaster by any means.
DL was born 20 years ago when the standard art of the day in AD&D was somewhere between amateur and good. DL was -in its heyday - the flagship line and it was treated accordingly. The art of Easley and Elmore still inspires us all to this day.
That was then - this is now. Let's try and get past that, ok?
Originally posted by Steel_Wind
Eberron is to be the new flagship line of WotC. It is hardly surprising that WotC would invest more heavily in promoting it and giving it all the bells n whistles, while DL at the same time was not seen as profitible enough and was licensed out to Sov Press.
This was much more than just "Dragonlance vs. Eberron." It just happened to be the Eberron product that brought it to my attention of just how poor the DLCS really was as far as a product goes.
They took away 32 pages from us and didn't lower the price. The editing was absolutely horrid. The art, on the whole, while I liked a lot of the designs, were desperately of lower quality.
Were they purposefully trying to make Dragonlance fail? No way...that would be counter productive. The DLCS wouldn't sell, SP's products wouldn't sell, and WotC would loose the money on the liscensing from SP. There's no reason for them to try and "sabotage" it.
That being said, however, it's obvious that their concern with the quality of the DLCS was, how to say, lacking. If it was going to be that low, they should have just given the reigns completely over to SP for the first book instead of just as writers. Sure that would have meant the Age of Mortals book wouldn't have come out at the same time...but I would have been fine with that. The DLCS would have had better art, better editing, better binding (all these things are proven by the art, editing, and binding of all the subsequent SP books being superior to the DLCS), and we would probably still have another 32 pages of goodness and maybe even a fold out map.
This was really just more of a retro "that was stupid" thread. Not an "Eberron vs. Dragonlance" thread. Ah, but hind sight is 20/20...and we can never underestimate greed.
Anyway...I've said my piece (or is it peace?) on this subject...so I'll end my part here.
Originally posted by Steel_Wind
There is no need to view every marketing initiative of WotC through the eyes of a slighted DragonLance fan.
Well, to be fair, TSR never ran DL very well, and WotC never really gave it as a chance as a game world.
However, why WotC feels they need a new flagship world is a bit beyond me I think.
The situation, in a nutshell, is that save for FR and the core books, they have pretty much washed their hands of everything that was a TSR gaming world.
1. Ravenloft
2. Pre-Fifth Age Dragonlance
3. Spelljammer
As you can see, WotC doesn't support any of my favorites anymore. Yes, Sword and Sorcery are doing a good job with Ravenloft, but they aren't even allowed to use any of the names from other WotC properties, so that Soth, when mentioned in the history of the demiplane, is simply referred to as "the dark knight who once ruled Sithicus."
I disliked the removal of the gods from Krynn and the dissolution of the Orders of High Sorcery. These were two of the things that I had always felt made Krynn unique. A friend who had played in a post-War of the Lance, 2ed campaign that I ran while in hight school bought me a copy of the new DLCS and I've now gotten back to reading the novels to get caught up. Needless to say, I agree that Sovereign is doing a great job with the setting.
So did the AoM (with a few exceptions, Solamnic Auxiliary Mage?!).
Thing is, unlike (what seems to be) every other DL fan, I dispise Larry Elmore's drawing style. I'd much rather see whomever did the drawing of the Legion Mystic/Sorcerer/Scout and Academy Sorcerer become the lead artist for DL.
Just my 9 pp.
-TRRW
Originally posted by TheRedRobedWizard
Thing is, unlike (what seems to be) every other DL fan, I dispise Larry Elmore's drawing style. I'd much rather see whomever did the drawing of the Legion Mystic/Sorcerer/Scout and Academy Sorcerer become the lead artist for DL.
Elmore is a great artist, and really is (IMO) the artistic face of Dragonlance. I do agree with you about the artwork for the Legion classes. Whoever did those pictures needs to get a lot more work for future DL products.
Originally posted by SweetMeats
Elmore is a great artist, and really is (IMO) the artistic face of Dragonlance. I do agree with you about the artwork for the Legion classes. Whoever did those pictures needs to get a lot more work for future DL products.
That artist, Jason Engle, also contributed the artwork for the noble draconians in the Bestiary of Krynn. He's had work published in Dungeon and Dragon magazines, as well, and was one of the key artists on the Game of Thrones collectible card game from Fantasy Flight Games. Here's his website: http://www.jaestudio.com/
Cheers,
Cam
-TRRW
Originally posted by SweetMeats
Thanx for the link. Any chance we can see more of his artwork in future product?
I know Sovereign Press has liked his work so far. It's up to them and to Jason's schedule, really - a lot of these artists quickly find that they're in demand once they get a few popular illustrations published!
I'm a fan of Jennifer Meyer's work, the artist responsible for the Citadel mystic and spellfilch art in the Age of Mortals sourcebook.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by SweetMeats
I prefer a more realistic approach to artwork, personally, but I agree she is a good artist.
More realistic? She's known for her true-to-life illustrations of plants and animals. She illustrated the deer, elk and moose in the Bestiary, for example, and her work in the Age of Mortals sourcebook is probably the most realistic of all the contributing artists (the rest of them taking a more stylistic tone, like Engle). I suppose I'm a little confused by your comments.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
More realistic? She's known for her true-to-life illustrations of plants and animals. She illustrated the deer, elk and moose in the Bestiary, for example, and her work in the Age of Mortals sourcebook is probably the most realistic of all the contributing artists (the rest of them taking a more stylistic tone, like Engle). I suppose I'm a little confused by your comments.
Cheers,
Cam
Stylistic? *Ponders* After looking at some of his work on his site I can see what you mean, but the Legion of Steel artwork in the AoM has a much more realistic tone and colour to me than say the Citadel Mystic.
Just different view on artwork I guess.
Plus, its all WotL era and not 5th age.
Originally posted by Amaron Blackthorn
Maybe the "official" dragonlance people can answer that question for us?
Maybe one day?
~~~
Originally posted by LordofIllusions
The Dragonlance product line needs Jason Engle AND Larry Elmore. Get rid of those other artists.
Some of us like those other artists.
Jennifer Meyer, Ron Spencer, Eric Vedder, Mark Evans, and the folks at UDON who worked on the Bestiary are some of my favorite artists at the moment, and made the work Andre' and I did really shine. So, the more SP uses them, the better.
With something as purely subjective as art, you can't just narrow it down to one or two. Even the original Dragonlance art team had Elmore, Easley, Caldwell and Parkinson, with Denis Beauvais and others pitching in. I think it would have looked very odd not to have them all doing it.
Cheers,
Cam
I don't know who's art is who's (I'm not sure which pieces are Evan's, Vedder's, or Spencer's)...but it's all good.
What were Jason Engle's pieces? Were they those weird computer generated pieces? They were okay...but they looked a little odd to me. But they're still counted among the pieces of AoM art that I liked.
Originally posted by Brimstone
I don't know who's art is who's (I'm not sure which pieces are Evan's, Vedder's, or Spencer's)...but it's all good.
What were Jason Engle's pieces? Were they those weird computer generated pieces? They were okay...but they looked a little odd to me. But they're still counted among the pieces of AoM art that I liked.
Engle is the artist who did the noble draconians, and some of the art in the Age of Mortals is his (the Legion, the Academy sorcerer, etc). Vedder did the horax, the frost and fire dragons, the funno, child of Chemosh, and the Malrauthin demon. Ron Spencer's art includes the bloodrager and (my favorite piece in the entire book) the ursoi.
All good work.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Amaron Blackthorn
Why dont they recycle some of the old stuff though?>
Why do you want to see recycled art? I was upset enough that there was one in the Bestiary.
Originally posted by Serena DarkMyst
There was? Which one was it? I dont remember off hand.
The near-full page green dragon rider pic on p. 36. The same picture was used on the cover of one of the old 2nd edition Taladas adventure modules.
Originally posted by Serena DarkMyst
There was? Which one was it? I dont remember off hand.
It was kind of in the middle of that flying green dragon with a Dragon Highlord rider. It was the original cover of DLA1: Dragon Dawn.
Does anyone know who did those?Along those lines...I thought the kyrie was excellent too (in the BoK). I hope we get a cool pic of the huldrefolk sometime, too. Oh...and a bakali would be nice (the lizardfolk from the MM just don't look right, to me).
Originally posted by Brimstone
They are the thanoi and the shadowperson. They were two great reimaginings of lost folk. All we've really had for them were a couple of small black and white pictures from TotL. These were great...suddenly they don't look so guilty anymore.
Ron Spencer, illustrator of the ursoi.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Ron Spencer, illustrator of the ursoi.
Excellent!
The guy does awesome work!
Originally posted by Amaron Blackthorn
maybe the picture of the green rider was awful but what about some of the other classic art?
I didn't say it was awful...it's actually a very good painting (Elmore in his hay day!). I said it was I didn't like the fact that they were using old art.
Originally posted by talinthas
for what its worth, kalamar existed as a system/setting for a while before 3e. they just jumped on the bandwagon before most other folks did.
(their setting, btw, while dull as dishwater, is still brilliantly detailed and fleshed out)
I think you mean "dull as dishwater, in my opinion".
Also, since we're talking about art, the main Kingdoms of Kalamar campaign setting book featured mostly art by the late Henry Glass, whose art and designs have been featured in museums throughout the world.
http://www.architechgallery.com/arch_info/artists_pages/henryglass.html
Kalamar has great maps and great production work, but the setting flavor never grabbed me. Its for a different type of gamer than I am, and i just couldnt get into it. I guess it's too 'old school' as it were =)
I still appreciate the free adventure you sent me during that enworld promotion, but sadly, it wasn't really enough to pull me from Krynn =)
Originally posted by talinthas
fancy meeting you here, Mark =)
Kalamar has great maps and great production work, but the setting flavor never grabbed me. Its for a different type of gamer than I am, and i just couldnt get into it. I guess it's too 'old school' as it were =)
I still appreciate the free adventure you sent me during that enworld promotion, but sadly, it wasn't really enough to pull me from Krynn =)
That's okay - we'll still be here when you change your mind.