For instance:
-No Halflings
-No Beholders
-No Drow
Etc...?
Or should we start one...?
Originally posted by Cessna182
Has anyone compiled a single, brief "Not in Krynn" list?
Between the DLCS and the Dragonlance Dungeon Master's Screen, all of the core D&D monsters have been covered.
Cheers,
Cam
(Hey, you look familiar... ;))
But yeah, I'm just looking for a sort of "big picture/quick reference" guide. I'm still new to the setting, and it takes some getting used to. DL isn't *completely* different from standard D&D like, say, Tekumel or Dark Sun - but it still takes some getting used to. I don't want to slip up and accidentally have a halfling where he doesn't belong...
Originally posted by Cessna182
Ah, cool. Thanks, Cam.
(Hey, you look familiar... ;))
But yeah, I'm just looking for a sort of "big picture/quick reference" guide. I'm still new to the setting, and it takes some getting used to. DL isn't *completely* different from standard D&D like, say, Tekumel or Dark Sun - but it still takes some getting used to. I don't want to slip up and accidentally have a halfling where he doesn't belong...
Well, despite the fact that there are several creatures absent from the setting, writers continue to conjure up a way to include them anyway. Dragonlance has no lycanthropes, yet a race of shapeshifting panthers occasionally appears in the novels. It has no drow elves, although that didn't stop somebody from writing a module in which a ship full of drow crashes on Krynn.
Your gut instinct is always the best way to approach it. I've got a lot of monster books on my d20 shelf, and I've included a number of things in my current campaign which I wouldn't advocate as canon (and not just monsters either - one of the PCs is an akashic from Arcana Unearthed). If you have material and you really like it, come up with a clever way to include it in the game and it will probably be just fine.
Here's my basic list of unincluded monsters from the core MM, though, since it isn't in the DM's Screen chapter:
Couatl, Deep Dwarf, Derro, Drider, Drow (elf), Duergar (dwarf), Ethereal Filcher, Ethereal Marauder, Githyanki, Githzerai, Half-Dragon, Half-Orc, Halfling, Lammasu, Lycanthrope, Mind Flayer, Orc, Svirfneblin (gnome), Tarrasque, Titan
Now, some of the above have appeared in older modules. For example, the Theiwar clan of dwarves used to be represented by derro, and there's a (very very bad) published adventure with a tarrasque. And of course, if you have a good reason to include ethereal filchers and ethereal marauders, go for it. But, you get the idea.
Cheers,
Cam
No drow.
No orcs or half-orcs.
No half-dragons.
No lycanthropes.
No gem dragons.
No mind flayers (yaggol are okay, though).
Those are the key critters to look out for.
I'm still baffled where people get the idea that beholders aren't allowed.
Edit: Damn, Cam beat me to it, and went into much further depth. Curses! ;)
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
I'm still baffled where people get the idea that beholders aren't allowed.
Maybe I'm just new to the setting. Where are they mentioned?
Originally posted by Cessna182
Maybe I'm just new to the setting. Where are they mentioned?
I think there's a story where a fellow named Oster fought one. Perhaps in Tales II?
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Beholders were included in the original series of modules - one's in Silvanesti's Nightmare, for example. A stone statue of one appears in the Odyssey of Gilthanas, and nothing's ever been printed to state that they don't exist, so...
Cheers,
Cam
Yes I came across that to. I think when it comes to beholders on Krynn its more like their not "native" to Krynn but may have stopped by sometimes and a few stayed or got left behind.
Course thats just my way of looking at it.
Oh and I do remember a short story with Mind Flayers following a tinker gnome to the Missing City.
No lycanthropes
No drow
No half drow
No orcs
No orcs
No orcs
Did i mentions no orces
No half orces
No halflings
No half dragons (though someone explain Huma's Son in Dragons of Choas anthology
)Originally posted by DaemonAngel
No half dragons (though someone explain Huma's Son in Dragons of Choas anthology
Liam of Eldor hardly resembled a half-dragon in the sense of the Monster Manual. In fact, I would say he's something else entirely.
More than likely, he's a kender tale. One never knows, though!
Originally posted by DaemonAngel
I think when it comes to beholders on Krynn its more like their not "native" to Krynn but may have stopped by sometimes and a few stayed or got left behind.
That's also the way it's explained in Odyssey of Gilthanas which calls beholders 'ancient enemies of the huldrefolk from beyond the stars'.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
No mind flayers (yaggol are okay, though).
I dont remember how the book was called, but i have a monster manual from 2nd edition o that describe monsters from DL.
There are yaggpl and mind flayers.
It has no drow elves, although that didn't stop somebody from writing a module in which a ship full of drow crashes on Krynn.
What module was this?
Originally posted by adventureauthor
What module was this?
Wild Elves.
Originally posted by Taskr36
Despite the fact that orcs do not exist on Krynn, I know of at least two books that included half-orcs. One of which was Kendermore, one of the worst books written in dragonlance, where the main villian was a half-orc.
Newer printings of Kendermore have her as a half-ogre. Klaudia from the DLCS is supposed to be a half-ogre, not half-orc as well. In fact, she is this way in the Key of Destiny.
Originally posted by Amaron Blackthorn
I thought that beholders were in the dream of Silvanesti.
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Beholders were included in the original series of modules - one's in Silvanesti's Nightmare, for example.
Yup
Originally posted by DaemonAngel
Yes I came across that to. I think when it comes to beholders on Krynn its more like their not "native" to Krynn but may have stopped by sometimes and a few stayed or got left behind.
And, to be fair, I think with Spelljammer it gets messy. If I remember my TSR history, there was a pretty substantial crossover betweek Spelljammer and Dragonlance - I suppose that we could include Neogi and other 'Jammer uglies in DL if we really wanted.
I, personally, would prefer to leave Spelljammer out...
Originally posted by Cessna182
I, personally, would prefer to leave Spelljammer out...
What!!!! No giant space hamsters? Say it ain't so! ;)
Originally posted by vejono
What in the abyss is spelljammer?
It's a 2nd edition AD&D campaign setting inspired by Jules Verne and other Victorian era writers of space fantasy, with magical ships piloted through the aether between worlds, swashbuckling adventures with colorful takes on traditional D&D stereotypes, and of course giant space hamsters.
With the move away from a single multiverse containing all D&D worlds, settings like Spelljammer and Ravenloft (which connected many worlds with the dark Domain of Dread and its evil inhabitants) have been forced to change. Spelljammer, especially, has seen some of its elements removed from many other campaign worlds, such as Dragonlance, precisely for this reason.
Cheers,
Cam
Just a thought really......daydreaming...
Not only were the worlds held "in common" by Spelljammer, they were all connected (officially, anyway) by Planescape.
It's sort of a cool idea - a huge cosmos in which everything is connected - but somehow it just doesn't work for me. It starts off well ("Hey, we can visit Krynn! Or Greyhawk!") but eventually it causes too many problems and makes every world too similar due to travel and communication...
Originally posted by Cessna182
If you really want to get buggy...
Not only were the worlds held "in common" by Spelljammer, they were all connected (officially, anyway) by Planescape.
It's sort of a cool idea - a huge cosmos in which everything is connected - but somehow it just doesn't work for me. It starts off well ("Hey, we can visit Krynn! Or Greyhawk!") but eventually it causes too many problems and makes every world too similar due to travel and communication...
The "Spelljammer" link between the other offical DnD world settings and Dragonlance is mute now anyway. Having Krynn pulled to a new location in the cosmos, far from its original position, really neutralizes the Krynn, Torial and Oarth connection.
Not the mention the 40 years seperation!! ;)
Krynn: 40 SC
Which would make it:
Torial: 1413 DR
Ebberron 1038 YK
Originally posted by vejono
What in the abyss is spelljammer?
Cam answered this quite well, but I thought you guys might like a visual reference to go with it.
Here's the official SJ site: Beyond the Moons
And here's their Krynnspace page: Krynnspace
Yours truly has done some work to expand and update Krynnspace to the current era.
Originally posted by DaemonAngel
The "Spelljammer" link between the other offical DnD world settings and Dragonlance is mute now anyway.
Eh? What was that?
Oh, you meant that it was moot. (Sorry, couldn't resist. :D )
Having Krynn pulled to a new location in the cosmos, far from its original position, really neutralizes the Krynn, Torial and Oarth connection.
Not the mention the 40 years seperation!! ;)
Krynn: 40 SC
Which would make it:
Torial: 1413 DR
Ebberron 1038 YK
Night Druid and I worked out where all the campaign worlds are currently, and where Spelljammer lies with that. Basically, the Avatar trilogy happened at the same time as the War of the Lance. Current Realms timeline is about 16 years past the War of the Lance. Greyhawk's timeline is about 15 years past that point, so those two worlds match nicely. Dragonlance's is 70 years past that point, meaning that current DL timeline is 55 years ahead of the Realms, Greyhawk, and Spelljammer.
Check out my guide to Krynnspace on the Krynnspace page of Beyond the Moons for my thoughts of the "future history" of Krynnspace. This includes the movement of the world of Krynn, and the search for Krynn.
Originally posted by Amaron Blackthorn
Are kodragons and Astral dragons no longer in Krynn?
It seems they have been declared unpersons: see the following thread:-
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=267555
Originally posted by Daedavias
Newer printings of Kendermore have her as a half-ogre. Klaudia from the DLCS is supposed to be a half-ogre, not half-orc as well. In fact, she is this way in the Key of Destiny.
HER as a half-ogre? I don't really know what you're talking about. The half-orc in Kendermore was the villain named Denzil. Making him a half-ogre would be rather foolish since he was able to pass as a human. If he were a half ogre he'd be at least 7 feet tall making it impossible to pass for human.
Originally posted by Taskr36
HER as a half-ogre? I don't really know what you're talking about. The half-orc in Kendermore was the villain named Denzil. Making him a half-ogre would be rather foolish since he was able to pass as a human. If he were a half ogre he'd be at least 7 feet tall making it impossible to pass for human.
No, he could still pass for human. Half-ogres(like half-orcs) are medium, not large, so he wouldn't have to be at elast 7 ft tall. And anyway, Denzil was a very large guy anyway. Plus, do you honestly think a half-orc could pass for human as well as he did?! Not only did he look human, he was handsome!
Originally posted by Taskr36
The half-orc in Kendermore was the villain named Denzil. Making him a half-ogre would be rather foolish since he was able to pass as a human. If he were a half ogre he'd be at least 7 feet tall making it impossible to pass for human.
Sorry but you are wrong.
First, orcs don't belong to DragonLance, so there are no half-orcs in Krynn.
And second, the half-ogre from Savage Species is a Large creature, but a half-ogre in DragonLance is very tall yes, but he is still a Medium creature. A minotaur or half-ogre can get the Hulking Brute from the DLCS to be treated as Large creatures in certain situations, but they are still Medium creatures for everything else...
Originally posted by Taskr36
HER as a half-ogre? I don't really know what you're talking about. The half-orc in Kendermore was the villain named Denzil. Making him a half-ogre would be rather foolish since he was able to pass as a human. If he were a half ogre he'd be at least 7 feet tall making it impossible to pass for human.
Now how in the cheese did I manage to type that up wrong...
Originally posted by Amaron Blackthorn
Now it seems that Kodragons and the Astral Dragons are no longer in Krynn either.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Amaron Blackthorn
Are kodragons and Astral dragons no longer in Krynn?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It seems they have been declared unpersons: see the following thread:-
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthre...threadid=267555
Originally posted by Steel_Wind
What's the rationale for no Lycanthropes?
I had something to do with Krynn having Three Moons. Now you can say that Lycanthropes control by the moon simply shiftshape with the full moon of their alignment but that doesn't really work for evil werewolves, by far the most around. Take a look at Nuitari's cycle.
Originally posted by Devouring_Dark
Sorry but you are wrong.
First, orcs don't belong to DragonLance, so there are no half-orcs in Krynn.
And second, the half-ogre from Savage Species is a Large creature, but a half-ogre in DragonLance is very tall yes, but he is still a Medium creature. A minotaur or half-ogre can get the Hulking Brute from the DLCS to be treated as Large creatures in certain situations, but they are still Medium creatures for everything else...
I never said orcs, or half-orcs belong here so please make sure you read carefully before you tell me I'm wrong. I simply pointed out the existence of half-orcs in a few books. I even pointed out that Kendermore was one of the worst-written books in dragonlance.
As for size, I was thinking Savage Species when I mentioned them being large. In DLCS it says they are between 6'6 and 7'6. A half-orc is between 5' and 6'6. Denzil what not described as being extremely tall, just very muscular, so I don't feel calling him a half-ogre makes much sense. They should have just called him a human and omitted the whole half-anything in the newer editions. Especially since he was referred to as being handsome.
Given a choice between what seems more consistent a feel, I think a werebear in Nordmaar or werewolf Throtl makes more sense than a Tanaari in Throtl in either of those places.
YMMV.
Either way, there have been alot of authors of dragonlance novels and as a result, some of the books have broken the rules or ruined plotlines from other books.
I came to a point where I wouldn't even read books if they were written by Mary Kirchoff because I was so sick of seeing Half-orcs, Brownies, and other creatures that didn't exist in Krynn playing major roles in her books
Oh and Yes, it has been specifically said before that draconian souls were the spirits of abishai, but I believe that has been retconned.
Not everything in the novels will be able to have a gaming explanation. Some things must be done for the flow of the story but would be difficult to duplicate in the D&D rules. Other things would be DM discretion. If you want orcs or lycanthropes, make a reason for them and send them on in. It may be a hook into a long and drawn out campaign just trying to find out why they are there :D
Originally posted by Amaron Blackthorn
Wasnt there a werewolf or something in the 2nd Volume of the II Tales Trilogy though?
There was a wizard that was cursed by another mage (or the Gods, or something) to transform into a wolf once a month. So he wasn't really a werewolf ...
Night Druid and I worked out where all the campaign worlds are currently, and where Spelljammer lies with that. Basically, the Avatar trilogy happened at the same time as the War of the Lance. Current Realms timeline is about 16 years past the War of the Lance. Greyhawk's timeline is about 15 years past that point, so those two worlds match nicely. Dragonlance's is 70 years past that point, meaning that current DL timeline is 55 years ahead of the Realms, Greyhawk, and Spelljammer.
This can be dealt with. With Takhisis yanking Krynn in and out of space, and this universe as a whole, it's quite possible that Krynn wasn't even operating on the same timeline as the other worlds, for a while. So when it returned, it may have been, say, 55 years ahead of the others.
Makes for some confused spelljammers. "Well. Krynn just reappeared. But everything looks different. I really need to stop drinking."
No gem dragons.
No mind flayers (yaggol are okay, though).
Actually, I may be wrong about this, but I'm pretty sure there were gem dragons in Taladas. Just what someone told me.
However I do KNOW that Mind Flayers showed up in one of the stories in either "Dragons of Krynn" or "The Dragons at War". They were chasing a gnome that had stolen some component of their spelljamming vessel, and crashed in the domain of a rather large brass dragon. It was a nice fight.
Originally posted by Serena DarkMyst
Both of those instances sound a bit odd to me....as far as Gem Dragons....I beleive that is wrong....but you say you just heard it from a friend...I beleive your friend was wrong......as far as spelljamming, as far as I know that is not at all canon with dl though
Yeah, the thing to consider is the time in which those short stories were written. At the time the gnome spelljammer story was written, Dragonlance had its cosmology intricately tied with that of the FR, Greyhawk, and so on. Now, of course, most campaign worlds (Dragonlance included) have opted for the route of closed universes, where the only cosmology that exists is the cosmology of the campaign world.
This of course brings up interesting questions about the origin of certain races in Dragonlance given the advent of 3rd edition DL gaming. The phaetons, for example, have undergone some retconning concerning their origins. The astral and ko-dragons have apparently been conveniently swept under the rug of nonexistence.
So what will happen to creatures such as the Yaggol of Taladas? Originally they were the descendants of a failed mind flayer colony on Krynn, a failure due to the Cataclysm. But what about now?
a. Will the Yaggol go the way of the Astral dragon?
b. Will the Yaggol be retconned as mutations spawned by the Graygem?
Can't wait for that d20 Taladas supplement.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
No halflings.
No drow.
No orcs or half-orcs.
No half-dragons.
No lycanthropes.
No gem dragons.
No mind flayers (yaggol are okay, though).
Those are the key critters to look out for.
I'm still baffled where people get the idea that beholders aren't allowed.
Edit: Damn, Cam beat me to it, and went into much further depth. Curses! ;)
I have writen about this subject before but here goes again:
Drow elves and lycanthropes DO exist in Krynn. You can find them all in DL 16 Dargard Keep (official DL adventure). They were imported by lord Soth and he has it all (including beholders). Wererats, wereboars, weretigers, werewolf etc and many drow elf fighters and wizards.
One time one of my players was just dyeing to play drow in my evil DL campaing so I let him make an drow assasin working for the lord Soth. Most of the people in Ansalon just thought he was a half elf (black people do exist in Krynn - and so do black half elves). And about lycanthropes; you all know how fast those bastards "breed" and if only one of those has got loose from Nighlund they might be allover Ansalon by now.
Many people forget that great DL 16 adventure. There were some great mini adventures and this awsome "Dargard Keep" horror adventure that is still one of my alltime favourites!
Also there is this old "comical" (and unofficial) adventure "Orcs return to Krynn" that was published by some 2nd party publisher.
Originally posted by cnposner
I dare say that Dargaard Keep has been declared apocryphal like Wild Elves.
What?? Never! It is the official END for the whole DL campaing. Without it you would never get to know what happened to Kitiara after the Legends and fight against Dalamar in Shoikan tower. Just remeber that Soth has ability to travel (to Ravenloft for example)!
Originally posted by cnposner
I dare say that Dargaard Keep has been declared apocryphal like Wild Elves.
What?? Never! It is the official END for the whole DL campaing. Without it you would never get to know what happened to Kitiara after the Legends and fight against Dalamar in Shoikan tower. Just remeber that Soth has ability to travel to different worlds (to Ravenloft for example)!
Originally posted by Perkele
What?? Never! It is the official END for the whole DL campaing. Without it you would never get to know what happened to Kitiara after the Legends and fight against Dalamar in Shoikan tower. Just remeber that Soth has ability to travel to different worlds (to Ravenloft for example)!
Kitiara's fate is described in Dragons of Summer Flame, and Soth's journey to Ravenloft has been declared apocryphal.
Originally posted by cnposner
Soth's journey to Ravenloft has been declared apocryphal.
Hmm...got a citation for this?
Besides, Soth didn't travel to Ravenloft so much as Ravenloft picked up Soth. :-)
Matthew L. Martin, Ravenloft Fan
Originally posted by cnposner
I dare say that Dargaard Keep has been declared apocryphal like Wild Elves.
This, however, I can vouch for. James Lowder was told not to bother about it when writing Knight of the Black Rose, IIRC, and Steve Miller, one of the key members of the Fifth Age design team, mentioned on several ocassions that it had been declared non-canon by that team. I can't imagine that Sovereign Press is going to treat it as official either.
It might have been official at the time of the Ravenloft launch, though. There's a reference in the boxed set about how Soth stepped through a dimensional rift into the Land of Mists. However, I don't own the module myself, and the layout is such that when I've had a chance to look at it, I've never been able to figure out how it ends or what Soth's fate is.
Matthew L. Martin
Originally posted by cnposner
Kitiara's fate is described in Dragons of Summer Flame, and Soth's journey to Ravenloft has been declared apocryphal.
While many Dragonlance fans hold that Soth's journey to Ravenloft didn't happen (and I'm sure Ravenloft fans say he never left), I always felt that his disappearance to Ravenloft and return to Krynn still worked continuity-wise.
Also, had Skie known that Kitiara was actually a floating head in Dargaard Keep....
Er.....
*runs away*
The adventure "Dargaard Keep" in the module "DL16 World of Krynn" has been declared non canon, mainly due to the inclusion of all those creatures that showed up in it that DO NOT appear in Krynn's population Im betting.
I'm just being and ass. I still feel drows have a place in Krynn but that's another discussion.
I am with Dragonhelm as well with this. You could have not said it better Serena. After everything Soth went through in Spectre he would be in just the right mind set to send the Queen to the Abyss with her offer to lead her undead army.
Originally posted by Serena DarkMyst
I dont know really.....RL seems to do fine without Soth. The last story Soth was in was a really good one, and actually to me served to make his story even better, so....in a way, the DL/RL Soth Debacle made Soth's story even better....Ill tell you who got shafted.....Takhisis....if Soth had captained her army of the dead then maybe they would have won.
Thats the whole thing about Soth's trip to RavenLoft. It seems the people at RavenLoft did a MUCH better job at their history. When you look at the research that they did in KNGIHT OF THE BLACK ROSE, their clear knowledge of Soth, how he worked, even on Chemosh when he was a relatively unknown player in the DragonLance world. Heck, I think that was Chemosh's first real endeavor as Krynn's Lord of the Undead, and that was not even in a DragonLance novel.
As I recall, though, Soth did truely fear Raistlin, and I would imagine he probably wanted nothing to do with going to the Abyss to take on Raistlin. It probably would flat out see him destroyed for all times and Raist would probably expend very little effort at it too.
You remember that old Dragon Magazine series where all the great Wizards used to get together? That you could call unofficial but it still was great to read. Raistling, Elminster and all others having a cup of tea and talking about cosmos.
Originally posted by cnposner
Kitiara's fate is described in Dragons of Summer Flame, and Soth's journey to Ravenloft has been declared apocryphal.
Ehh... Most of the things from DL 1 to DL 14 are described in noves but you can still play those adverntures to find out those same things. Best Dragonlance game is played when people first play those adventures and read novels after that. Thats how I think it should be. My players didnt know what happened to Kitiara after Soth came and took her away... not before they went in that castle. ;) ;)
Originally posted by Perkele
DL 16 and Dargard Keep in it are both very official.
No... no they really aren't. Kitiara did not become a penanggalan, and there isn't a tarrasque in Soth's basement.
Cheers,
Cam
e.g. The Dargaard Keep adventure has lycanthropes. The DLCS states there are no lycanthropes on Krynn. DLCS trumps, so officially there are no lycanthropes.
e.g. The Wild Elves adventure had Drow. The DLCS states no drow on Krynn. DLCS trumps Wild Elves.
e.g. The Dragonlance 1st edition Adventures hardcover capped PC levels at 18. DLCS follows 3rd edition, where there is no level limit. DLCS trumps.
e.g. Humans in the Tales of the Lance boxed set (2nd edition) could not multiclass. DLCS follows 3rd edition, where humans can multiclass. DLCS trumps.
e.g. In 2nd edition, Dragonlance's cosmology was shared with that of the Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk. Per the DLCS, Krynn has its own cosmology (and deities), seperate and unique from all other campaigns. DLCS trumps.
So there you go. The Dargaard Keep adventure and all those other outdated adventures are official, insofar as they do not contradict the DLCS. Tout the existence of drow and werewolves all you want, it just won't be considered official by current campaign standards.
Personally I like the way Dragonlance is set up pretty much with the races and knighthoods and such.. its unique. I really dont know a lot about Greyhawk, but a lot of times it seems to me to be pretty close to Forgotten Realms..which is one of the reasons I rarely ever look over material about it. I know it has its own rich history..but I see too many similarities.
Personally I can't wait for Taladas to be in a sourcebook for 3.5 so that there are even more options...but they are also on another continent. Sure Taladas and Krynn may interact..but they dont necessarily have to either.
I love psionics and am constantly looking over books and the boards about them... but I don't allow them in my Dragonlance campaign. As I said before, I think a campaign setting is defined by what is or isnt in your campaign. I'm not trying to badmouth anyone who does add drow, orcs, psionics, etc..just putting in my two cents.
So Soth actually got to do something for those intervening years.
Anyway, its all good now - neither world has him...heh, heh
:D
Although his influence remains in both campaign settings: The currency of Sithicus are coins named the rose, crown and sword, and the Sithicans still call their moon "Nuitari".
the rules of Ravenloft say you can't ever leave (Despite the fact that every DM EVER used it for 'weekend in hell' adventures),
That's not correct.
You can't leave the demiplane unless you are allowed to leave by the Dark Powers. PCs are likely to be released fairly easily, Darklords rarely.
Soth was released by the Dark Powers.
Vecna was the only Darklord who escaped by his own powers. (Which is fitting, because the adventure he did so in was the final 2nd Edition one, which ended up breaking every rule and convention of the D&D multiverse).
And technically, TSR/Wizards didn't need to ask Weis' permission to use Soth. Soth was and always has been owned by TSR/Wizards and they can do whatever they want with him.
Originally posted by iltharanos
As far as the official stance is concerned, anything from previous editions of Dragonlance that contradict the current incarnation of Dragonlance are superceded by the current edition.
e.g. The Dargaard Keep adventure has lycanthropes. The DLCS states there are no lycanthropes on Krynn. DLCS trumps, so officially there are no lycanthropes.
e.g. The Wild Elves adventure had Drow. The DLCS states no drow on Krynn. DLCS trumps Wild Elves.
e.g. The Dragonlance 1st edition Adventures hardcover capped PC levels at 18. DLCS follows 3rd edition, where there is no level limit. DLCS trumps.
e.g. Humans in the Tales of the Lance boxed set (2nd edition) could not multiclass. DLCS follows 3rd edition, where humans can multiclass. DLCS trumps.
e.g. In 2nd edition, Dragonlance's cosmology was shared with that of the Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk. Per the DLCS, Krynn has its own cosmology (and deities), seperate and unique from all other campaigns. DLCS trumps.
Who are these people who ruin someones great work by just saying that "its no official because we do it this way"? They should thank those who have done great work before them and keept up this great fantasy world so they could have a job today. I can understan those changes made to adjust the gameplay to these new rules (max level and so on...). There is nothing bad it that. But why to change some major stuff in the world it self? Could´t they just write that "There are no lychantropes in Krynn, exept in the dark lands of Nightlund..." Im not a fan to this fifth age and age of mortals stuff. Most of those books were quite poorly writen and didnt hit me even close as hard as MW´s and TH´s novels. So I dont really care if they change stuff for those times. Just wish they would keep Dargard Keep as it is or then make a new version of that adventure! - that would be sooooo cool!
And technically, TSR/Wizards didn't need to ask Weis' permission to use Soth. Soth was and always has been owned by TSR/Wizards and they can do whatever they want with him.
The reason why it does not take a lot of imagination to 'put Soth in Ravenloft' was that the book where he goes to Ravenloft, KNIGHT OF THE BLACK ROSE, was extraordinarily researched, written, and presented. Unlike other books, where it is clear the authors only did a cursory glance at the world at large before writing, it is clear that the guy who did RavenLoft read just about everything before he did KNIGHT OF THE BLACK ROSE> He knew about what Raistlin was doing. He tied in what Soth was doing, the whole battle for Palanthus, into his book. He tied in the goings on in the Abyss into his book. He did a great job building up Soth even before he got transported into Ravenloft and many of the challenges Soth faced were parallels of things on Krynn, which I thought was a good touch.
That is why I have no problem with Soth going to Raveloft because they did such a good job in doing it.
Originally posted by Perkele
Who are these people who ruin someones great work by just saying that "its no official because we do it this way"? They should thank those who have done great work before them and keept up this great fantasy world so they could have a job today. I can understan those changes made to adjust the gameplay to these new rules (max level and so on...). There is nothing bad it that. But why to change some major stuff in the world it self? Could´t they just write that "There are no lychantropes in Krynn, exept in the dark lands of Nightlund..." Im not a fan to this fifth age and age of mortals stuff. Most of those books were quite poorly writen and didnt hit me even close as hard as MW´s and TH´s novels. So I dont really care if they change stuff for those times. Just wish they would keep Dargard Keep as it is or then make a new version of that adventure! - that would be sooooo cool!
You ask who the people are who release this DLCS and state these facts? Well...it's Margaret Weis' gaming company, Sov. Press. And....before you go shooting off at the mouth touting how the 5th Age is poorly written, first realize that that is entirely subjective, and second....before you go saying something is poorly written, check the grammatical quality of your own writings.
You have to consider that all those who design for shared worlds bring in their own personal views and biases. Each of us have a different opinion of what makes Dragonlance what it is. That factors in.
Also consider that designers must look through the “lens” of the edition they are designing for. For example, many of the points above about prior editions and the DLCS ring true because the designers are working with the D&D 3rd edition rules system. Dragonlance is the setting, D&D is the mechanics that are making it work (as did AD&D and SAGA before it).
Dragonlance may be a very different setting if we didn’t have some of the D&D rules in place. For example, I could see the setting without bards or spellcasting rangers. At the same time, the setting has very D&D-like elements such as wizards and clerics.
Add to all of this the editors and the direction the editors and management wish to take with the setting. Wild Elves comes across as an attempt to take a popular element associated most heavily with the Realms, namely drow, and implementing them in Dragonlance as an attempt to get more interest in the setting. I may be wrong on that, but that’s my guess. Either that, or the author felt that drow were cool. ;)
Plus, keep in mind that Dragonlance has been in an evolution for the last 20 years. Dargaard Keep was towards the beginning of that. The world has moved on much since then.
Remember that any rulesbook is a tool for which the DM can run his game. The ultimate authority, of course, will be the DM. He will decide what is and what isn’t canon. So if he wants lycanthropes, drow, or what have you – by golly, he’s going to have it.
So try not to get too wrapped up in what is and what isn’t official. Things do change over time. Just go with what works for your group, and have fun.
Originally posted by True_Blue
Personally I can't wait for Taladas to be in a sourcebook for 3.5 so that there are even more options...but they are also on another continent. Sure Taladas and Krynn may interact..but they dont necessarily have to either.
I just love being nitpicky. ;)
Taladas and Krynn do have to interact, simply because Taladas is a continent on Krynn, just like Ansalon.
Originally posted by Perkele
Who are these people who ruin someones great work by just saying that "its no official because we do it this way"?
Um, Margaret Weis and her company Sovereign Press ...
Could´t they just write that "There are no lychantropes in Krynn, exept in the dark lands of Nightlund..." Im not a fan to this fifth age and age of mortals stuff.
The no lycanthropes "rule" isn't something that came along with 3rd edition and the Age of Mortals, it's been around since the 2nd edition and the old Tales of the Lance boxed set.
As I said earlier, that there are no drow or were-creatures is just the official stance. There's nothing preventing you from introducing them, along with orcs, halflings, and whatever else you can think of to your Dragonlance game. But as True_Blue stated, the more of those elements you add to your game, the less Dragonlance it will become and the more like the Forgotten Realms/Greyhawk/Dark Sun it'll appear.
"Ansalon" and Taladas dont have to interact...there =]
Some of these stories are absolutely, positively, true. Others are probably almost absolutely, positively true, but not quite. Still others are what we refer to in polite society as "kender tales"- stories that aren't true, but sure are a hoot to hear!
And so you ask; Fizban, Great and Powerful Wizard, which stories are which?
And I Fizban, Great and Powerful Wizard, answer: As long as you enjoyed the stories, you door knob, what does it matter?
Hence it is pointless to argue which of the products are"canon";
whether Lord Soth really went to Ravenloft, whether there really was a colony of drow in Southern Ergoth, or whether Kitiara became a penangglan.
Originally posted by cnposner
And I Fizban, Great and Powerful Wizard, answer: As long as you enjoyed the stories, you door knob, what does it matter?
You know, I should put that in my sig-line the next time I modify it.
Originally posted by cnposner
Hence it is pointless to argue which of the products are"canon";
whether Lord Soth really went to Ravenloft, whether there really was a colony of drow in Southern Ergoth, or whether Kitiara became a penangglan.
Old Fuzzbutt was speaking of novels and short stories, towards which he's correct. Old Fuzzbutt wasn't speaking about DL game products, where it's quite clear that later editions of the game supercede older versions and are thus "canon" whenever there is a conflict between old and new.
The need to define "canon" is necessary in order to have a shared world like Dragonlance. Sure you can go with the approach that "if it works for you, Mr. DM, then add it." This is a perfectly fine approach, but it does nothing to help define the Dragonlance world and what does and does not exist there. This is precisely why the game designers spend so much effort (in the DLCS, the DM screen booklet, etc.) establishing the feel of Dragonlance by specifically excluding certain monsters.
Without an idea of what is and is not canon, we may very well end up with a world populated by:
Half-dwarf Psion/Spellfire Wielder Illithid Riders dueling with Drow Wereboar Sha'irs.
Yes, that may be even be a cool world, but it won't be Dragonlance.
Originally posted by Serena DarkMyst
You ask who the people are who release this DLCS and state these facts? Well...it's Margaret Weis' gaming company, Sov. Press. And....before you go shooting off at the mouth touting how the 5th Age is poorly written, first realize that that is entirely subjective, and second....before you go saying something is poorly written, check the grammatical quality of your own writings.
Take it easy my dear fellow DL fan. I´m not "shooting off my mouth", those are just my opinions about 5th age novels. Read my text again and you can see this your self... and if you dont then I´am sorry that I ofended you somehow. Also please try to understand that some people in here do not speak or write english as their first language (I my self speak and write 3 - but not so perfect english as you allready pointed out to everybody - thanks for that). Also I think that everybody is alowed to have and state their opinions (in good spirit) here. "You dont need to be a cook to tell if the food you are eating tastes bad or good to you."
Also I know for fact that I my self have not yet talked to a single person who would have said that 5th age novels where better or even "as good" as classic DL novels and other stuff writen by TH&MW. If someone here states otherwise then he/she will be the first and I´m more than glad to read his/her comments about this subject. Heck, I´m even thinking about startin a new topic about this thing...
Firstly, It isnt my intent to alienate or poke fun at someone who cannot speak English correctly due to it not being their first language. I apologize for that...I was under the impression I was speaking to someone who might have had some sort of issue with figuring out their prime language.
After re reading your post, I too think that a new version of the adventure would be cool.....but one that kept with the established canon of the setting....which of course would rule out the appearance of drow, lycanthropes and the like. However, having played through the adventure, it was a fun one, although I played it after I knew full well what had happened to Kitiara, so when I saw her as a penangalaan (whatever it is) I just shook my head and went with it, knowing full well that wasnt what had happened.
Anyhow, what I am getting at is, yes I accept that some people like to run DL campaigns that are not at all what is found in the canon of the setting...as a matter of fact....Im cool with that.........I like playing those games......but what I prefer to run however is a fully canon game.
Glad to meet ya fellow DL fan.....Im sure we'll be butting heads again sometime ;)
Originally posted by Serena DarkMyst
After re reading your post, I too think that a new version of the adventure would be cool.....but one that kept with the established canon of the setting....which of course would rule out the appearance of drow, lycanthropes and the like.
Anyhow, what I am getting at is, yes I accept that some people like to run DL campaigns that are not at all what is found in the canon of the setting...as a matter of fact....Im cool with that.........I like playing those games......but what I prefer to run however is a fully canon game.
Glad to meet ya fellow DL fan.....Im sure we'll be butting heads again sometime ;)
Apology is acepted. I must say to my own defence that I picked up most of my english from the deep south (Louisiana) over 10 years ago and you know how those people talk there
Ok... I agree with you and I would acept loosing the drow and lychants if they would make a new version of Dargard Keep. I admit that every DM I know has changed Kitiaras fate in that adventure so that has never been a problem to me anyway. I too prefer to run fully canon game - and until this topic I have truly thought that lychants and drow were part of the Krynn (only in Nightlund, but still). And as I have told before, I even let my players to play drow as long as that characters backround is tide closely to Soth and Dargard Keep. I think I would do the same with lychants. I´m just too old and its hard to change these things that you have keept as a part of your DL world for a long, long time... I bought my first DL novels and adventures when they were 1st published and I even had to wait for the DL 2 to appear before I could DM it to my players. Damn I´m old...
Originally posted by Serena DarkMyst
Id be really interested as to how you worked your lycanthropes what with three moons......I bet you have something interesting there
I never really had to think about that. I rule that in Nightlund its allways a night time, dark, misty and bit stormy. Whole area is under the curse that affects Soth and other undeads. Lycants would stay in their monstrous form 24/7.
Outside Nightlund you should rule (as DM) to what lycants react when they change? Moon light, moon gravity, moon magic, all or some of these? And then play it as it is. I would rule that moon light is the major thing in this and gravity has something to do with it. Maby something like this:
When Solinari is High - lycants change (strong light + strong gravity)
When Lunitari is High - lycants change 30% (some light + some gravity)
When Nuitari is High - lycants change 10% (very litle gravity + no light)
When Lunitari and Nuitari are High - lycants change 40% (some light and together quite strong gravity)
Wuuuh! This sounds more than interesting now when you made me think about it! Moon tracking would have some more use after this - not just to wizards anymore. What would happen on the night of the eye? Is there higher gravity on those moons that are closer to Krynn? How much light does Lunitari really cast down on Ansalon? How does moon magic effect lycants?
Originally posted by Perkele
Dargard Keep really gives them some hard time - not too many of us can say that "my character went in there, defeated Soth and came back alive." Worth of a good t-shirt slogan, I think.
True, so true. Dargard Keep (also known as Party Killer) is one of THE most devious scenarios ever made. I think Dargard Keep is excelent ordeal by fire for players. There you can actually put your self and your group to test and see have you learned anything about how you should play D&D role game's (tactics and stuff)... and if player groups got some **** between the ears instead of brain.
That t-shirt idea is good, but it would be better idea print two set of them, if players screw up. "A t-shirt is always a t-shirt.. it doesn't matter if there's dumb ass written all over it!" ...just in case... ;)
In the campaign I am running.
I used to be a huge WarHammer:FANTASY player (I was very proud of my Dwarf Clan Army I built), and as such, have actively integrated aspects of Warhammer into DragonLance. Namely.....
1) I have divided the Dwarf's on Ansalon into seven distinct Kingdoms. Aside from Thorbardin, THoradin ,and that Z-one, I created Karak-A-Karaz and a few other places straight out of the WarHammer books, just with a DragonLance twist.
3) RuneSmiths and RuneLords- I have integrated both into my campaign. I have RUnelords essentially as being to Reorx what a Paladine is to Paladine, a sort of Holy Defender, in this case of Reorx and his ways. As well as the Anvil's of Doom and the abillity to incribe Runes. Runesmiths are generally the title of True Clerics among the Dwarves and thus their loss in the NIGHT OF DOOM before the Cataclysm would be a huge blow to the Dwarves.
4) Gunpowder- In my campaign, the Dwarves claim to have discovered the secrets of Gunpowder, and that it can only be refined in the darkest places of a dwarf kingdom AND it requires a blessing of a True Dwarf Cleric of Reorx to work on Krynn. IN this aspect, when the True Clerics leave Krynn on the Night of Doom, this secret is lost with the Cataclysm. And the dwarves claim the Gnomes stole from them the secrets of Gunpowder, whom in turn blame the Dwarves....
5) Engineer Guilds- Every Dwarf HOld has an Engineer Guild, whom also hold tremendous sway over the Dwarfs regardless of Clan.
6) Weaponry- For those whom have played WARHAMMER FANTASY, I pretty much have the Dwarfs decked out with their Army List War Machines. The Dwarves have the Mortar instead of a Catapult (a mortar is more Dwarf like anyway), and have also developed Thunderers (Muskets) for their Engineer troops. Gnomes I have more or less using thE EMPIRES war machine lists, as well as some other Adhoc kind of stuff.
Thoughts, feelings?
1. So where'd you put Karaz-a-Karak and the other "new" dwarf kingdoms? Somewhere in the Khalkists was the first thing that popped into my head. The Worldscap mountains on Karthay seem like a good location for one, come to think of it. In my current campaign I haven't done much with the dwarves other than to flesh out Hillow, the hill dwarf kingdom. Even then I've pretty much kept the level of tech among the dwarves as it is portrayed in the novels.
2. Hehe. I'd respond to your second point ... but for the fact you don't have one. ;)
3. Runes I've thought were always integral to dwarves, seeing as how their writing is runic. Ahh, what can I say, although there are a lot of annoying things about the FR, they certainly do have nice prestige classes. That said, I've allowed players in my campaigns to make use of the Runecaster PrC from the FRCS, as well as the rune-using PrC from Ghostwalk (the name escapes me at the moment).
4. In my campaign, Gnomes hold exclusive rights to gunpowder, be it in the form of explosives or firearms. I've expanded on Gnomes and their relationship to gunpowder and steam engines in my Ansalon-based campaign to the point where gnomes quite commonly have renaissance-era based firearms and primitive steam engines, steamships, and airships. Steampunk has always fascinated me and I've thus allowed my players the option of using the material presented in Sorcery and Steam, which is probably the best steampunk d20 game resource i've seen. The only catch (of course!) is that in order for the players to make use of all those funky steamwork tech pieces, they've got to be gnomes!
5. The only engineer guilds I've got in my campaign are with the gnomes.
6. Gnomes are the only ones in my campaign that commonly have gunpowder-based weapons, with the occasional exception being their erstwhile Solamnic allies on Sancrist.
BTW, DMJOE, do you have (or have you read) the Bestiary of Krynn? I swear, the first time I saw the Scourge of Chaos PrC in the appendix, the first thing to pop in my head was the marauding hordes of Chaos ala Warhammer. The PrC's illustration looks like it'd be perfectly at home in any Warhammer FRP product.
Originally posted by iltharanos
Interesting Warhammer twists there DMJOE. I've got to admit I used to be a big WFRP fan myself (I've got virtually all the classic WFRP products [including Realms of Chaos]).
I never actually tried the RPG version of Warhammer. I was always strictly a Warhammer TableTop General, with the Dwarfs as my selected Army. I did have a bretonnian and Lizardman army (since that is what the boxed set came with).
My Dwarf Army was based on the Dathyll Clan Army and as such, maintained what I tried to keep a 'homely, clan like' look (no Hammerers or IronBreakers). I had Two good sized regiments of Dwarf Warriors; a regiment of LongBeards, a regiment of Crossbows, Miners. Some war machines. THe Dathyll clan being lead by Wolfoz Dahthyll as their Clan Lord, but in truth, the Master Rune Smith Hogan "The Mighty" Dathyll was just as high up on the level with his Anvil Of Doom.
1. So where'd you put Karaz-a-Karak and the other "new" dwarf kingdoms? Somewhere in the Khalkists was the first thing that popped into my head. The Worldscap mountains on Karthay seem like a good location for one, come to think of it. In my current campaign I haven't done much with the dwarves other than to flesh out Hillow, the hill dwarf kingdom. Even then I've pretty much kept the level of tech among the dwarves as it is portrayed in the novels.
Lets see. I got Thorbardin still where it has always been. Thoradin similarly where it has always been.
Karak-A-Karaz is located on the Vingaard Mountains, on the eastern side, about half way inbetween the end of the Range to the North and High Clerists Tower to the south. Mostly founded by Hill Dwarfs.
In Kathay, in those mountain ranges to the North, is Karak-Drakha (the Norse Hold). They have some mariner skills, are a lot like the vikings.
at the mouth of the river that splits between Silvanesti and Balifor is Barak Varr, the sea fortress.
Zhufbar (the Weapons Hold) is located in the mountain range where the Tomb of Huma will someday be located.
I actually don't have a seventh Dwarf Kingdom yet.
2. Hehe. I'd respond to your second point ... but for the fact you don't have one. ;)
Hmm, what a mess up on my part eh? Lol!
3. Runes I've thought were always integral to dwarves, seeing as how their writing is runic. Ahh, what can I say, although there are a lot of annoying things about the FR, they certainly do have nice prestige classes. That said, I've allowed players in my campaigns to make use of the Runecaster PrC from the FRCS, as well as the rune-using PrC from Ghostwalk (the name escapes me at the moment).
I can dig that. I got RuneSmiths has master smiths whom are also True Priests to Reorx; similarly a rune lord is the equivelant of a Paladin that serves Reorx. In any case, either can utilzie the powers of the Anvil Of Doom...my all time favorite piece in the Dwarf Army.
4. In my campaign, Gnomes hold exclusive rights to gunpowder, be it in the form of explosives or firearms. I've expanded on Gnomes and their relationship to gunpowder and steam engines in my Ansalon-based campaign to the point where gnomes quite commonly have renaissance-era based firearms and primitive steam engines, steamships, and airships. Steampunk has always fascinated me and I've thus allowed my players the option of using the material presented in Sorcery and Steam, which is probably the best steampunk d20 game resource i've seen. The only catch (of course!) is that in order for the players to make use of all those funky steamwork tech pieces, they've got to be gnomes!
5. The only engineer guilds I've got in my campaign are with the gnomes.
6. Gnomes are the only ones in my campaign that commonly have gunpowder-based weapons, with the occasional exception being their erstwhile Solamnic allies on Sancrist.
In #6, that is why I tried to keep most gunpowders away from the Gnomes. Perhaps deep down in Mt Nevermind they just don't have the capacity for it. In any case, Dwarfs have pistols and THunderers for thier average Engineer Guild; and then have the Dwarf Cannon, Mortar, Repeating bolt thrower and some other things. I have the Gnome Engineers with the Imperial Great Cannon, Stone Thrower, Bolt THrower, the Flame Cannon, Organ Gun, some other things. No Steam Tanks or Gyro copters yet. In my campaign, gunpowder only becomes "active" with a blessing cast by a True Cleric of Reorx and thus why it disappeared after the Cataclsym.
BTW, DMJOE, do you have (or have you read) the Bestiary of Krynn? I swear, the first time I saw the Scourge of Chaos PrC in the appendix, the first thing to pop in my head was the marauding hordes of Chaos ala Warhammer. The PrC's illustration looks like it'd be perfectly at home in any Warhammer FRP product.
You're not the only one who noticed that! That looked straight up like a Chaos Knight or Chaos Warrior, granted I never played them (but sure as hell fought them a lot). At least back when Chaos Armys were more "Chaos God" Based and I would have said it was a Khorne Chaos Army.
Originally posted by iltharanos
BTW, DMJOE, do you have (or have you read) the Bestiary of Krynn? I swear, the first time I saw the Scourge of Chaos PrC in the appendix, the first thing to pop in my head was the marauding hordes of Chaos ala Warhammer. The PrC's illustration looks like it'd be perfectly at home in any Warhammer FRP product.
One of the authors is a huge fan of Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay also. ;)
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
One of the authors is a huge fan of Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay also. ;)
Cheers,
Cam
I take it you are talking about yourself? I can't say I ever played the Warhammer RPG ( I knew it was out there, but never actually tried it).
But I was a huge fan of the TableTop War Game. I played in a bunch of tourneys back in 98 and 99 and 2000 before I moved onto other things. But I sure had a fun time doing it.
In my original Knights of Solamnia campaign, one of my PC's was also a warhammer player and I was flat out using the WarHammer Army Lists for the campaign. Obviously the Dwarves of THorbardin kept their list; the Silvanesti were using the High Elves Army lists (including the Silver Helms, Reaver Knights, etc). The Ergothians and the Tarsis City army had certain aspects of the Empire army list (with 'simple' warmachines, anything advanced needed Gnomes to do their war machines. ) The Knights of Solamnia more or less used the Bretonnian army list. The Kagonesti used the Wood Elf army list. In my campaign, as the Kin Slayer wars were just starting, there were no Qualensti yet.