How did it go? Was there enough background information? Was it fun?
There isn't a lot of detail in that era, which I think makes it a prime era to game in. After all, you would be free to develop a lot on your own.
Originally posted by DmJoeSolarte
I was a little disappointed that the LEGEND OF HUMA missed out on what I consider to be a lot. Namely, the ForestMaster's involvement,and the High Clerists Tower.
There are some discreps between Legend of Huma and Chronicles (i.e. Canticle of the Dragon). I chalk this up to the idea that Huma is a legend much like King Arthur. There's dozens of stories about the guy, many of which conflict. Yet each one is enjoyable in their own right.
Originally posted by DmJoeSolarte
I was a little disappointed that the LEGEND OF HUMA missed out on what I consider to be a lot. Namely, the ForestMaster's involvement,and the High Clerists Tower.
I don't think the High Clerists Tower was built yet. But I could be wrong about it. And I personally don't see where a Forest Master would play a role in the Legend of Huma novel.
Originally posted by Dragontooth
I don't think the High Clerists Tower was built yet. But I could be wrong about it. And I personally don't see where a Forest Master would play a role in the Legend of Huma novel.
The tower was built with the dragontraps in place specifically to defend against evil dragons. Given that the events of Huma's time made that entire purpose moot for over a thousand years, it's pretty likely that the High Clerists Tower's origins are much earlier.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
There are some discreps between Legend of Huma and Chronicles (i.e. Canticle of the Dragon). I chalk this up to the idea that Huma is a legend much like King Arthur. There's dozens of stories about the guy, many of which conflict. Yet each one is enjoyable in their own right.
I can see why, but there are also those whom would be old enough to remember. For example, yes it is possible the CANTICLE was written in error about the part of the High Clerists Tower. Yet the ForestMaster was obviously there when Huma laid the DragonLance at her feet. I think it could have been rectified and in truth, had Richard Knakk emcompassed that, it would have made LEGEND OF HUMA greater then it already was.
it was still a masterpiece of a book.
Originally posted by Dragontooth
I don't think the High Clerists Tower was built yet. But I could be wrong about it. And I personally don't see where a Forest Master would play a role in the Legend of Huma novel.
Well, if we go off the Forestmaster's statement from DRAGONS OF AUTUMN, then we know they must have dealt with each other directly and personally. I try to believe the Forestmaster was the instrument of Paladine used to inform Huma and the SilverDragon that it was possible for her to become human. Still.
I think the High CLerist Tower had to be built very early in the history of the order in order for the Dragon Traps and Dragon Orb to be fully inodated into the Towers construction.
FOr example, if we go by the DRAGONLANCE Campaign book, the 3rd Dragon War and Huma took place 1200 years before the Cataclysm.
In the ELVEN NATIONS TRILOGY, in Book 1, Huma is refered to for his role in defeating the Queen of Darkness by the Sithas, Speaker of the Stars of the SIlvanesti. I would imagine that Sithas would know exactly when that happened as he probably remembered hearing about it. In Book 2, the ERgothian General Giarna reveals that the Queen of Darkness was banished by Huma but it won't be long.
If we go by this, the Age of Huma would be about 2000 years before the Cataclysm and before the Kinslayer war. I bought into that: It seemed like sucy hypocrisy, that the Knights of SOlamnia do so much to save the world from the Queen of Darkness, yet the Ergothians and Silvanesti engage in the war they engaged in for something as petty as racial purity.
I thought things added up better for the Age of Huma being 2000 years earlier then the Cataclysm. It made less sense for things as powerfull as the Dragon Orbs and the High Clerists TOwers Dragon Traps and such to come to the world so relatively close to the Cataclysm.
Originally posted by DmJoeSolarte
Another problem that I believe exists is the TimeLine. Lets face it, there were a lot of timeline errors in the Dragon Lance Chronicles, which is a trajesty considering how magnificent a history the Dragon Lance novels has.
FOr example, if we go by the DRAGONLANCE Campaign book, the 3rd Dragon War and Huma took place 1200 years before the Cataclysm.
In the ELVEN NATIONS TRILOGY, in Book 1, Huma is refered to for his role in defeating the Queen of Darkness by the Sithas, Speaker of the Stars of the SIlvanesti. I would imagine that Sithas would know exactly when that happened as he probably remembered hearing about it. In Book 2, the ERgothian General Giarna reveals that the Queen of Darkness was banished by Huma but it won't be long.
If we go by this, the Age of Huma would be about 2000 years before the Cataclysm and before the Kinslayer war. I bought into that: It seemed like sucy hypocrisy, that the Knights of SOlamnia do so much to save the world from the Queen of Darkness, yet the Ergothians and Silvanesti engage in the war they engaged in for something as petty as racial purity.
I thought things added up better for the Age of Huma being 2000 years earlier then the Cataclysm. It made less sense for things as powerfull as the Dragon Orbs and the High Clerists TOwers Dragon Traps and such to come to the world so relatively close to the Cataclysm.
I don't remember reading any of this in the Elven Nation Trilogy, but I will admit its been well over 7 or 8 years since I read the books. BUT the time period that the Elven Nation is suppost to take place the Knights of Solamnia haven't even been formed yet. There is no country of Solamnia yet. The dragon war that the elves are making referance to is the 2nd dragon war. Not the 3rd which is the one Huma found the lance for.
Originally posted by Dragontooth
I don't remember reading any of this in the Elven Nation Trilogy, but I will admit its been well over 7 or 8 years since I read the books. BUT the time period that the Elven Nation is suppost to take place the Knights of Solamnia haven't even been formed yet. There is no country of Solamnia yet. The dragon war that the elves are making referance to is the 2nd dragon war. Not the 3rd which is the one Huma found the lance for.
In Elven Nations Book 1, it is mentioned during a feast where a giant pie, baked like a dragon is brought out as a main course. The dragon is made of pastry and stuffed withs auce and stuff. During the feast, the Speaker mentions that "The Dragons long basished by Huma have returned" as a jest.
Also, in book 2, the Emperor of Ergoth says he wants to expand into the Plains because of the territory lost to Solamnia during their rebellion and that he felt going into those plains would be easier then trying to retake "the province in rebellion" in reference to Solamnia.
Obviously, I am aware of other timelines that dispute this, including the book VINAS SOLAMNUS, which was odd because if you beleive that, the Dragons were already banished.
But, even with the problems fixed in subsequent products, that doesn't stop authors from using incorrect information.
As far as TimeLines go, yes, an "oops" is in order. I think that Weis/Hickman had an obligation to ensure a certain continuity and outline for all authors to ensure a good storyline was in place for it.
As for the Fifth Age flushing Krynn's rich history down the toilet...where do you get this!?! The Fifth Age did no such thing...it didn't retcon anything...Krynn's rich history is still there. What are you talking about? I don't understand where you're coming from on this.
Originally posted by Amaron Blackthorn
is a pre-cataclysm sourcebook in the works?
Are you sure you're not at least part (if not all) kender?
;)
Originally posted by Brimstone
First of all...I disagree with you that the SW prequels are crap. They are excellent! They'll never be the original trilogy for us elder folk, of course, but the original trilogy will never be what the prequels are to the new young fans. So, you might as well get over that.
Right.
The Prequel Trilogy have been a disaster of Epic Proportions. How GL managed to **** up something like Star Wars is almost unbelievable that the Prequels have run the course that they have. TPM had a lot of problems but had its moments, i will concede. But AOTC was nothing but pure crap and would have destroyed my love of the SW Universe forever had KNIGHTS OF THE OLD REPUBLIC had not come out.
NOw, KOTOR was everything I always believed the SW movies should and could have been. That is how I always imagined the SW universe.
How you can even defend the PRequel trilogy and all the crap it has spawned if beyond me.
As for the Fifth Age flushing Krynn's rich history down the toilet...where do you get this!?! The Fifth Age did no such thing...it didn't retcon anything...Krynn's rich history is still there. What are you talking about? I don't understand where you're coming from on this.
IT just seemed that Krynn had such a rich history, even as detailed in the DRAGONS and TWINS trilogy's, that it is sad that the groundwork of so much has been brought down, by what I consider to be pure crap.
I still love just about everything that came out that is dated BEFORE the TWINS trilogy, and I love all the books that are before the Cataclysm, but everything after the Chaos War was just stupid.
My two cents.
Back to the topic, I haven't read anything, besides the twins trilogy, that was pre-cataclysm. I do think it would be awesome to have a sourcebook for that age.
Originally posted by Brimstone
Yeah...it sure did. Completely ruined it...turn it into a pile of crap...god I can do nothing but complain about what Dragonlance has become.
There are many who agree with you! You are not alone in this thought!
Now......to continue.....How the heck does a thread about the Age of Huma degenerate into a Fifth Age bas fest? Somehow it seems to me that the thread has gotten derailed and off topic
If you were to play a character in Huma';s time what would you play and why?
I think we've come to a point where we can agree that certain moves were unfortunate.
For example, as much as 5th Age fans love the casting on the fly spells of the SAGA system, if the WoHS were not left powerless, then we wouldn't have needed to explain where this "new magic" came from.
If SAGA had been less emphatic about replacing D&D, they might have come up with a magic system that wasn't divided into divine and arcane magic, which would have made it a lot less redundant when traditional D&D magic came back.
If the 5th Age had not been so eager to claim dragonlance with "their own epic storyline" perhaps we would have had dragon overlords who did not destroy half the continent and left PC's powerless in their own campaign world until a novel or pre-made adventure solved it.
If the campaign setting would have decided to develop itself as a place of varied cultures and states rather than a single landmass, perhaps we wouldn't get the "world conquering and world destroying" plots over and over and over and over...
However, what is done is done. Mismanagement and conflicting design philosophies happened. You are going to have to expect that the setting is going to try to seek a cohesive feel. The elements which do not fit together will struggle for supremacy and some will win out. Things will be changed, then changed back, then changed again.
If dragonlance, God willing, is around for another 2 decades, you are going to have to expect a complete and utter continuity reboot, going back to the first 6 novels. Especially since dragonlance does not have regional books with new characters like the Forgotten Realms, but overarching world changing plots involving the same characters.
So everyone is getting screwed a little bit here. In the case of 5th Age and 4th Age fans, neither is really getting what they want. However, I think the new setting will continue have things that everybody likes. Plus, you can always use the resources and tweak them to your satisfaction, if the resources are good.
I think there is too much emphasis on the idea that "since I like it, everyone has to like it" or even more ludicrously "everyone has to shut up about not liking it because I like it". I don't think either idea really follows. My opinions on the Dragon Overlords and the new magic are well known, but they don't seem to cause flaming threads. I beleive this is because I always add "Well, I don't like this and I would have approached it this way" instead of just lamenting how it sucks.
Now my comments on how a lack of an decent geography section in the DLCS causes the entire line to suffer. That causes flaming threads. ;) I still can't comprehend how people fail to see how describing the cultures, governments, NPC's, organizations, and all the other places you get adventure hooks from is a waste of space.
Originally posted by Serena DarkMyst
Brimstone is right, no matter what is going on in the Fifth Age, it hasnt touched the history of Krynn at all. So, any who say the Fifth Age is destrying Krynn's history is rather mistaken.
Now......to continue.....How the heck does a thread about the Age of Huma degenerate into a Fifth Age bas fest? Somehow it seems to me that the thread has gotten derailed and off topic
Seriously. Whine whine whine. I hate elves, but I don't post on unrelated threads about how much elves suck. Oh wait, yeah I do.
To answer the original question: Nah. The only pre-1st Cataclysm campaign I've run was one that took place about 2 years before the 1st Cataclysm.
'Course, a campaign set during the 3rd Dragon War in which Huma fought would be rather sweet.
Originally posted by Amaron Blackthorn
Can we get back on topic?
I don't know what the heck you think the topic is...but he is on topic.
The question is...has anyone ever campaigned in the time of Huma. Joe's answer is , "not really, but I've campaigned earlier in the Age of Dreams." It looks on topic to me.
And like you're even one to criticise someone else about thread jacking and staying on topic. :D
Originally posted by Amaron Blackthorn
There are many who agree with you! You are not alone in this thought!
I thoughts on what DragonLance has become are rather mixed.
That being said, I'm glad H&W stepped to try and fix it. Things just might get better from here. (Maybe)
Originally posted by Amaron Blackthorn
There are many who agree with you! You are not alone in this thought!
I thoughts on what DragonLance has become are rather mixed.
That being said, I'm glad H&W stepped to try and fix it. Things just might get better from here. (Maybe)
Originally posted by Amaron Blackthorn
some might say that it cannot get any worse.
So much for trying to get back on topic, eh Amaron?
Originally posted by Amaron Blackthorn
Brimstone, it sounds like I annoy you?
I plead the Fifth! :D
Originally posted by Amaron Blackthorn
va fa napoli!
Attento a come parli, Amarono! I know it's summer and you're spending a heck of a lot more time reading these message boards, but you're overdoing it. You've been posting on almost every thread, and folks are clearly beginning to notice that you don't always have much to contribute. Please hold back on your comments unless you've got more than a one-liner "me, too!" post or a thread-necromancy effort, OK?
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Amaron Blackthorn
va fa napoli!
Come on...if you've got something to say...don't hide it behind a different language.
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Attento a come parli, Amarono! I know it's summer and you're spending a heck of a lot more time reading these message boards, but you're overdoing it. You've been posting on almost every thread, and folks are clearly beginning to notice that you don't always have much to contribute. Please hold back on your comments unless you've got more than a one-liner "me, too!" post or a thread-necromancy effort, OK?
Cheers,
Cam
Yeah, I quite seriously like Cam's suggestion.
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Attento a come parli, Amarono! I know it's summer and you're spending a heck of a lot more time reading these message boards, but you're overdoing it. You've been posting on almost every thread, and folks are clearly beginning to notice that you don't always have much to contribute. Please hold back on your comments unless you've got more than a one-liner "me, too!" post or a thread-necromancy effort, OK?
Cheers,
Cam
grazie tanti per il tuo aiuta.
Secundo me io no sono facando una cosa male. Che gente en queste communita que sei novo e non a legato une poste que sei importante come gli avventure. Si e una problema la problema stei con gli altri.
Originally posted by iltharanos
Yeah, I quite seriously like Cam's suggestion.
OK 1 LINER!
Originally posted by Amaron Blackthorn
grazie tanti per il tuo aiuta.
Secundo me io no sono facando una cosa male. Che gente en queste communita que sei novo e non a legato une poste que sei importante come gli avventure. Si e una problema la problema stei con gli altri.
Ahh. Pienso que hay gente aqui que no tienen los huevos decir sus pensamientos en ingles. Que malo.
Talagang walang ootak sha.
Originally posted by Amaron Blackthorn
por la verdad lltharanos? Por que estas deciendo eso? No es mi culpa si la gente de aqui no saben otras lenguas.
Lo siento. No se por que diciendo eso ... tal vez porque no conozco Italiano? ;) Hablando en ingles es mas bueno, si?
I dont think that a threadjacking has ever gone this route. Interesting yes, but I would actualy really like the original conversation to continue as I have many times thought that a campiagn set in Huma's era would be nearly ideal.
Originally posted by Serena DarkMyst
Gotta say Im getting tired of the multi lingualness...high school was a long time ago for me, and so were those foriegn languages classes.
I dont think that a threadjacking has ever gone this route. Interesting yes, but I would actualy really like the original conversation to continue as I have many times thought that a campiagn set in Huma's era would be nearly ideal.
High School was a long time ago for me as well ...
To get back on topic:
The main problem I'd see about setting a campaign in the time of Huma is lack of info. I'm referring to a lack of geographical info. (yikes, starting to sound like ferratus). ;) There was talk in the Legend of Huma about whole nations extinguished in the fighting with the Dark Queen ... e.g. Huma's own land of Eldor. So what was Eldor like? Where was it? How many people lived there? How did Huma manage to become a Knight of Solamnia when he came from a place called Eldor? Was Eldor then part of Solamnia? What about the other human nations of the time (let alone the non-human ones)?
On the flip side, such a lack of info. could actually be a plus, allowing DMs to come up with their own nations without worrying about a break in continuity since these nations could conveniently be destroyed by the rampaging dragonarmies.
Still, such handy geographical info. would be nice.
Originally posted by iltharanos
High School was a long time ago for me as well ...
To get back on topic:
The main problem I'd see about setting a campaign in the time of Huma is lack of info. I'm referring to a lack of geographical info. (yikes, starting to sound like ferratus). ;) There was talk in the Legend of Huma about whole nations extinguished in the fighting with the Dark Queen ... e.g. Huma's own land of Eldor. So what was Eldor like? Where was it? How many people lived there? How did Huma manage to become a Knight of Solamnia when he came from a place called Eldor? Was Eldor then part of Solamnia? What about the other human nations of the time (let alone the non-human ones)?
There is somewhat of a good map in LEGEND OF HUMA.
You bring up a good point about Eldor. I think Eldor is similar to KnightLund. It is within Solamnia, a province, as it may be.
It is difficult to REALLY ascertain, as there is no set standard of whom or what is really in charge of SOlamnia. THere is no "King" of Solamnia, and it is clear based on the novels, at least up to the war of hte lance, that while the KNights of Solamnia defend Solamnia, they don't have 'command authority' over units like the Palanthus City Army.
I have in my Solamnic campaigns, essentially 'provinced' out Solamnia. The KNights role is to defend and protect (similar to the Jedi) but don't usually rule save in certain areas. For example, in my campaign, I have Solamnia divided into districts where a district falls under the military command of The Grand Master, High Clerist, High Justice, High Warrior, and the Masters of the Orders of the Rose, Sword, and Crown (note, that is something I did on my own, just an excuse to have more 'lords within my campaign.
BUt while the High Justice for example, has the duty of defending Palanthus and that region of Solamnia (in addition to his duties as High Justice of the Knights of Solamnia), he does NOT rule that region. The Lord of Palanthus is still Lord of the City, the Knights defend and advice when they can, and step aside and let the civillians actually administer things after that.
Of course, that is for my campaign purposes only. Anyone else is free to do whatever they wish.
On the flip side, such a lack of info. could actually be a plus, allowing DMs to come up with their own nations without worrying about a break in continuity since these nations could conveniently be destroyed by the rampaging dragonarmies.
Still, such handy geographical info. would be nice.
addressed above.
Originally posted by DmJoeSolarte
There is somewhat of a good map in LEGEND OF HUMA.
You bring up a good point about Eldor. I think Eldor is similar to KnightLund. It is within Solamnia, a province, as it may be.
It is difficult to REALLY ascertain, as there is no set standard of whom or what is really in charge of SOlamnia. THere is no "King" of Solamnia, and it is clear based on the novels, at least up to the war of hte lance, that while the KNights of Solamnia defend Solamnia, they don't have 'command authority' over units like the Palanthus City Army.
I have in my Solamnic campaigns, essentially 'provinced' out Solamnia. The KNights role is to defend and protect (similar to the Jedi) but don't usually rule save in certain areas. For example, in my campaign, I have Solamnia divided into districts where a district falls under the military command of The Grand Master, High Clerist, High Justice, High Warrior, and the Masters of the Orders of the Rose, Sword, and Crown (note, that is something I did on my own, just an excuse to have more 'lords within my campaign.
BUt while the High Justice for example, has the duty of defending Palanthus and that region of Solamnia (in addition to his duties as High Justice of the Knights of Solamnia), he does NOT rule that region. The Lord of Palanthus is still Lord of the City, the Knights defend and advice when they can, and step aside and let the civillians actually administer things after that.
Of course, that is for my campaign purposes only. Anyone else is free to do whatever they wish.
addressed above.
That's true, one of the things that has always been rather unclear is exactly what relationship exists between the Knights of Solamnia and Solamnia. I remember there was a big thread about just this topic a while back, but for the life of me can't remember what people decided on the matter. Hopefully the exact relationship the Knights have with Solamnia will be made clear in the upcoming Solamnic novel.
Interestingly, the DLCS states that Solamnia is a Republic. The old Tales of the Lance boxed set states Solamnia is monarchic and parliamentary, then proceeds to list the Lord High Warrior, Lord High Clerist and Lord High Justice as leaders of the nation ...
Originally posted by iltharanos
That's true, one of the things that has always been rather unclear is exactly what relationship exists between the Knights of Solamnia and Solamnia. I remember there was a big thread about just this topic a while back, but for the life of me can't remember what people decided on the matter. Hopefully the exact relationship the Knights have with Solamnia will be made clear in the upcoming Solamnic novel.
Interestingly, the DLCS states that Solamnia is a Republic. The old Tales of the Lance boxed set states Solamnia is monarchic and parliamentary, then proceeds to list the Lord High Warrior, Lord High Clerist and Lord High Justice as leaders of the nation ...
Well, unquestionably, there ARE areas of Solamnia that the Knights do have direct control over. Vingaard Keep, the High Clerist Tower, WhiteStone. Those areas are unquestionably 'controlled' by the KNights. Knightlund, prior (or perhaps even during) the Fall of Lord Soth are also a realm that the Knight's "Control" directly.
HOwever, it is clear that areas like Palanthus (The Lord of Palanthus), Solanthus, Thelgaard, Mt Nevermind, and other places while within Solamnia clearly have their own leadership and it is probably only in times of war that the Knight's Authority supercedes those of the 'local authority'.
It does seem that in olden times, and how I have asserted it in my campaigns, is that as long as an authority meets certain standards (the Oath and Measure, as there are clearly parts of it that pertain to civilians), to uphold the gods of good, and some other things; as long as those tenets are kept, the Knight probably will recognize whatever rules or laws that might pop up.
I would compare it to the Jedi Knight's and their relationship with the Galactic Republic in the TALES OF THE JEDI and KNIGHTS OF THE OLD REPUBLIC era's.
I do recall, just before the Cataclysm in some books, that the Knights more and more were differing to the KingPriest of Ishtar. That might be an exception.
City states (Palanthas, Solanthus, Caergoth, etc) have their own autonomy in areas such as trade, internal security, taxation, and legislation. These city states are bound in a federation through an oath of fealty to the Solamnic Knighthood. The knighthood is given a tax by the city states to look after the defense of Solamnia in times of war. I imagine during peacetime that these taxes do not make the knights very popular.
The provinces themselves are ruled over by the Knights, with various manorial estates held by families recognized by the measure. These knights are eligible to belong to the Order of the Rose. The local villages elect their own Reeves and representatives, who petition the lord on behalf of the free peasants (there does not seem to be serfdom in Solamnia).
The Order of the Rose is responsible for Justice, so they are in effect the lords responsible for maintaining order, and rendering judgements in disputes. They also serve as the local champion (dealing with criminals, bandits, and goblins) and commander of the local militia.
The Order of the Sword is the religious arm of the Knights of Solamnia and deal with maintaining Abbeys in key strategic areas. The High Clerist's Tower, which guards the only pass through the mountains and into Palanthas is held by the High Clerist himself. Otherwise they look after religious shrines, escort pilgrims, and
The Order of the Crown is basically the standing army of Solamnia. They provide the shock calvary charge and unit commanders. The rank and file are provided by 1st level warriors and commoners. I imagine corporals and sargeants are are 2nd and 3rd level warriors, with the Knight of the Crown acting as a leiutenant. Squires of the crown are the attendants of the Knights of course.
That's how I pieced together from the DLA, TotL, and Bertrem's Guide to the 5th Age. I don't really know how a king fits into all of this unless Vinas Solamnus declared himself King and then died without issue. Then the political system evolved with the idea that ultimately there is an "absent" king. I imagine that someone claiming the throne will lead to a lot of chaos. What candidate could possible compete with the legacy of Vinas Solamnus?
But I must stress that this is only what I pieced together. I doubt if we are ever going to get an explanation of Solamnia's political system so that you can actually run a campaign in Solamnia that jives with the next novel that comes out.
Obviously, I have the Knights of Solamnia not as the leaders of Solamnia itslef, as much as I have them as Solamnia's Defenders. And not just in Solamnia. Even though Tarsis is quite a ways away from Solamnia, the fact is we know the Knights of Solamnia had quite a precence there if we go by source material (namely, Dragons of WInter Midnight). I have the Knights, based on their renown for having safegaurded Solamnia and the world from the Queen of Darkness, that most other realms of the age (Ishtar, Silvanesti, Ergoth, Qualiensti, THorbardin, etc) all respect them for what they are.
Generally speaking, I have the Knights of Solamnia, as well as having permanent garrisons in certain areas (regardless of whether they actually control it or not). Each "March" of Solamnia is assigned a regiment of Rose Knights, two Regiments of Sword Knights, and 3 regiments of Crown Knights (with supporting Gnome engineer/artillerests) per march of Solamnia, as well as roving bands of Kngihts that travel the realm doing good and such.