Gimme already! I can't wait!! ;)
Originally posted by iltharanos
Okay, so it's 19 minutes into Wednesday (EST) and I see no sign of that 4th ToHS preview.
Gimme already! I can't wait!! ;)
Who says that Dragonlance.com is on EST? ;)
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Who says that Dragonlance.com is on EST? ;)
AHA! Wisconsin! Let's see, that's Central Time Zone ... meaning another 26 minutes before it's Wednesday over there ...
The new preview is the Renegade Hunter PrC!!!!!!!
Keep up the excellent job Sov. Press!
EDIT: Damn, Serena beat me by 1 minute!
Kudos to Sovereign Press on this one!
Here's a direct link to the PDF for those who want to check this PrC out:
Renegade Hunter
Why the crap does the Renegade Hunter have a pair of sickles? PROHOBITED WEAPONS, PEOPLE!
Unless I totally missed it somewhere in the description that says they're allowed to carry other weapons than the classic staff/dagger.
-TRRW
Originally posted by TheRedRobedWizard
Since no one else has mentioned anything about it yet...
Why the crap does the Renegade Hunter have a pair of sickles? PROHOBITED WEAPONS, PEOPLE!
Unless I totally missed it somewhere in the description that says they're allowed to carry other weapons than the classic staff/dagger.
-TRRW
The Wizard of High Sorcery PrC does not actually prohibit mages from wielding particular types of weapon, and does not apply any penalties to those who do take up the sword, mace, sickle etc. The traditional emphasis on the staff and dagger is grounded in ancient custom, not the actual Laws of High Sorcery, and I guess the Renegade Hunters may choose to master unusual weaponry in order to better carry out their duties.
Originally posted by Serena DarkMyst
Yup....definitely kudos to SP on this one.....especially for right out in the open breaking out those sickles...I love it. I was pondering a question.....and really this is for someone in the know, how the heck do you say syzygy?
Siz - eh - gee
EDIT: It'd be really sweet if the ToHS had new Order abilities ...
Originally posted by Twilight Herald
The Wizard of High Sorcery PrC does not actually prohibit mages from wielding particular types of weapon, and does not apply any penalties to those who do take up the sword, mace, sickle etc. The traditional emphasis on the staff and dagger is grounded in ancient custom, not the actual Laws of High Sorcery, and I guess the Renegade Hunters may choose to master unusual weaponry in order to better carry out their duties.
Really?
I'm confused now.But it is nice to see some traditions falling through the cracks
Originally posted by Serena DarkMyst
No....read it closely......it isnt a prohibition of the weapons...it is just that traditionally WoHS only permitted themselves use of dagger and staff.
But it is nice to see some traditions falling through the cracks
Hmm...I guess I got a different impression when reading Legends....I'll have to go off and look at my books now.
P.S. Not disagreeing with you, just confused.
I would assume that the Renegade Hunter isnt held to the same tenets of the tradition, as the WoHS would want them to use any means necessary to bring in or destroy the renegade......
Which reminds me...I noticed that the cool ability that the Renegade Hunter has to mess around with the casting ability of a renegade is worded in such a way that it will not affect Wild Sorcerers at all. Was that intentional?
Originally posted by Serena DarkMyst
No....read it closely......it isnt a prohibition of the weapons...it is just that traditionally WoHS only permitted themselves use of dagger and staff.
But it is nice to see some traditions falling through the cracks
Normally, I'm one for tradition where the WoHS' weapons are concerned, but I have to say I like the pair of sickles.
Imagine the horror in the eyes of the renegade, who has sworn off the gods of magic, as he sees a couple of crescent-shaped sickles coming at him, which strangely resemble a crescent-shaped moon.
Darts, anyone? ;)
Yet this PrC encourages a character to multiclass. As the preview mentions, some good multiclass choices are fighter, ranger (non-spellcasting, of course), or rogue. I could imagine a renegade expecting the Renegade Hunter to use magic, and he uses a sword instead. Or perhaps the Renegade Hunter uses the rogue’s sneak attack ability.
Which reminds me...I noticed that the cool ability that the Renegade Hunter has to mess around with the casting ability of a renegade is worded in such a way that it will not affect Wild Sorcerers at all. Was that intentional?
Good question. I'll tell you one thing though, if this is true, the first Renegade Hunter that thinks he has the ability to diminish a sorcerors power is gonna be in some deep
Secondly I've always enjoyed the DL restrictions on weaponry accessible by wizards. Although I can see exceptions being made for people like Renegade Hunters, its a sign of respect for the rich DL history. Which is of course one of the things that sets this campaign setting apart from others.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
The thing I really like about the Renegade Hunter is that it is a role that encourages the wizard to multiclass. Generally, most wizards are as dedicated as a paladin or monk to magic – so much so that they don’t often pursue other paths.
Yet this PrC encourages a character to multiclass. As the preview mentions, some good multiclass choices are fighter, ranger (non-spellcasting, of course), or rogue. I could imagine a renegade expecting the Renegade Hunter to use magic, and he uses a sword instead. Or perhaps the Renegade Hunter uses the rogue’s sneak attack ability.
I haven't looked through all the prerequisites to see if this is feasible, but a good combination with the new Renegade Hunter PrC in the form of another PrC would be the Occult Slayer from Complete Warrior. As it is now, the Renegade Hunter has some special advantages when going up against renegade Wizards, but no particular benefits versus Sorcerers. Combine him with Occult Slayer though, and now he's better at hunting down sorcerers as well as those renegade wizards! Of course his spellcasting will suffer, but such a character will be a tough hunter indeed.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Yet this PrC encourages a character to multiclass. As the preview mentions, some good multiclass choices are fighter, ranger (non-spellcasting, of course), or rogue. I could imagine a renegade expecting the Renegade Hunter to use magic, and he uses a sword instead. Or perhaps the Renegade Hunter uses the rogue’s sneak attack ability.
*grins* Remember the strong protest people had a few years ago about my "Moon Knight" class a couple years ago because they were essentially a WoHS prestige class with a little more martial prowess?
I thought to myself at the time, what about those wizards who can pass the test, but don't really have the inborn talent to be great wizards? Shouldn't be there be a place for them?
If public opinion has shifted this far, maybe I should dust off my old "moon knights". ;)
Btw, the 5th level ability "Lunar Interdiction" is a good way to make a renegade's spells fizzle without completely gimping renegades by having a god just do it at will.
And as far as the Solamnic Auxiliary Mage and his being torn between loyalties....Ive noticed this with SP and their stuff. The torn between loyalties is on purpose....SP doesnt just release classes because they are cool......they create very excellent roleplaying opportunities with them......as a matter of fact I thought that was one of the coolest things about the Solamnic Auxiliary Mage
Originally posted by Amaron Blackthorn
You know I never thought about the roleplaying aspect of it. The whole general distrust between the mage and the Knights in addition to the distrust between the mage and the Orders would be most interesting.
OH YEAH that is Sturm BrightBlade and Raistlin all the way.
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Originally posted by Amaron Blackthorn
i for one am glad that these kinds of things will be included. We have waited along time for this product. I know it will be worth the wait.
Anyone know the DATE this book is supposed to be dropping ?
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Originally posted by Amaron Blackthorn
uh-oh LordofIllusions, you might be posting one liners and might make some people upset.
:heehee
~~~
Originally posted by Amaron Blackthorn
All of this is so exciting. We have waited so long for this sourcebook and the information presented therein. I hope that there are spells specific to Krynn, like the timereaver. Wasnt there a dreamweb or something that caused the devestation in Silvanesti? Maybe that will be included?
The spell you're referring to is MINDSPIN, along with the creatures DREAMSHADOWS and DREAMWRAITH. They're all in there!
Jamie Chambers
Sovereign Press, Inc.
Originally posted by Amaron Blackthorn
In the interest of not getting stomped on the moment any date I give isn't met, I cannot tell you a specific release date until we have a final D.O.A. from our printer. However, I can safely say you can expect it in game stores this August.
Thanks!
Jamie Chambers
Sovereign Press, Inc.
Thanks and happy game designing!
Are there going to be any more previews?
Originally posted by Amaron Blackthorn
I know but it would be nice to have a general idea of when to expect it?
You do have a general idea when to expect it...August.
Originally posted by jechambers
The spell you're referring to is MINDSPIN, along with the creatures DREAMSHADOWS and DREAMWRAITH. They're all in there!
Nice, just after I finished up the Silvanesti Nightmare! Well, it'll be interesting to see how similar or different it is.
Originally posted by Serena DarkMyst
Im sure the PrCs will be top notch, from what I have seen so far from SP I have no reason to believe otherwise.
And as far as the Solamnic Auxiliary Mage and his being torn between loyalties....Ive noticed this with SP and their stuff. The torn between loyalties is on purpose....SP doesnt just release classes because they are cool......they create very excellent roleplaying opportunities with them......as a matter of fact I thought that was one of the coolest things about the Solamnic Auxiliary Mage
Actually, this leads to one of the more baffling puzzles concerning the Solamnic Auxiliary Mage PrC. A White Robe whose loyalties are conflicted is happily permitted to join, but a Lawful Good sorcerer who is entirely devoted to the god Kiri-Jolith and the goals of the Knighthood would be ineligible to take the class.
Originally posted by Twilight Herald
Actually, this leads to one of the more baffling puzzles concerning the Solamnic Auxiliary Mage PrC. A White Robe whose loyalties are conflicted is happily permitted to join, but a Lawful Good sorcerer who is entirely devoted to the god Kiri-Jolith and the goals of the Knighthood would be ineligible to take the class.
There's a few things to take into account here.
The Knights of Solamnia are an organization based on long-standing tradition. They're distrustful of arcane magic as it is. Still, their traditions are that of godly magic, despite being without for the last 40 years. Even when they tapped into mysticism, they still performed age-old rituals dedicated to the Solamnic Triumvirate.
It may be possible that a sorcerer could be LG, but they lean more towards the path of chaos, and are free spirits. A White Robe, however, has already proven that he possesses the virtue of loyalty by dedicating himself to the Orders of High Sorcery.
Also, Solinari is the son of Paladine and brother to the twins, Kiri-Jolith and Habbakuk. The Knights of Solamnia may not revere Solinari, but they would at least respect him by association.
Sorcerers also make up the ranks of the Knights of the Thorn, who are sworn enemies of the Knights of Solamnia. This may taint the view of the knighthood.
However, there's nothing stopping a person from using a sorcerer as a SAM. Just remember that if you do, the sorcerer may bring about a conflict between the Knights of Solamnia and the Wizards of High Sorcery, whether intentionally or not, if the WoHS feel that the sorcerer is a threat. After all, sorcerers are renegades. ;)
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
It may be possible that a sorcerer could be LG, but they lean more towards the path of chaos, and are free spirits. A White Robe, however, has already proven that he possesses the virtue of loyalty by dedicating himself to the Orders of High Sorcery.
Also, Solinari is the son of Paladine and brother to the twins, Kiri-Jolith and Habbakuk. The Knights of Solamnia may not revere Solinari, but they would at least respect him by association.
We already know that there are Lawful Good sorcerers, since such were permitted in the Solamnic Auxiliary before the war of Souls ( just as we see Lawful Evil sorcerers in the Thorn Knights ). As members of the auxiliary, whether fighters, rangers, sorcerers or what have you, they have also proven themselves with the tests of loyalty and virtue that the Solamnics require their recruits to undergo. I don't deny that the Knights respect Solinari, but surely a sorcerer who worships Kiri-Jolith or Habbakuk directly is a better fit for the PrC than a White Robe ever could be. In any potential future disagreement between the WOHS and the Knighthood, the White Robe Auxiliaries are obliged to follow the Conclave, whereas sorcerers have no reason not to be faithful to the Solamnic cause. I do concede however, that the situation may be different if Kiri and Habbakuk are refusing to accept ambient arcane spellcasters as worshippers, which perhaps is the case.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
The Knights of Solamnia are an organization based on long-standing tradition. They're distrustful of arcane magic as it is. Still, their traditions are that of godly magic, despite being without for the last 40 years. Even when they tapped into mysticism, they still performed age-old rituals dedicated to the Solamnic Triumvirate.
Whatever dude. The Solamnic Auxiliary magic users came about during the 5th Age when it was only ambient magic. You know as well as anyone that it's bogus for the Solamnic's to only allow wizards. And Twiligh Herald makes the perfect point. Why fight it? Come...come to the dark side. MWAHAHAHA!!
......
Oh...um...nevermind. :D
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
I wanted to add that the renegade hunter is an idea I've seen floating around fandom for quite a while now. It is perhaps THE most requested PrC for the WoHS.
Kudos to Sovereign Press on this one!
Here's a direct link to the PDF for those who want to check this PrC out:
Renegade Hunter
Heh, I can BELIEVE THAT ! One of my players took ONE LOOK at the Renegade Hunter and decided THAT is the PrC for him. :D
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Originally posted by Amaron Blackthorn
I hope that the other PrCs presented in the book will be of the same quality.
As do I. My only thing is once this book comes out I think EVERYONE in my campaign will want to take Wizard levels.
:D
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Originally posted by Amaron Blackthorn
Hooray, too bad we have to wait until next month for the book.
~~~
Originally posted by LordofIllusions
The Renegade Hunter is a rough PrC to obtain ESPECIALLY since it would seem that you have to FIRST take the WoHS PrC.
No, you don't. You could qualify for this class once you reach 7th level wizard, but you'd have had to spend a lot of skill points on cross-class skills (Gather Information, Search, Sense Motive) and pick up at least one feat you probably wouldn't have bothered with otherwise (Track). Taking a level in ranger would help this along, as would a few other classes, but it was designed to allow for at least a single-classed wizard to take it.
I'll remind you at this point that you don't need to take the wizard of High Sorcery class once you pass the Test, although for the renegade hunter it's probably a very good idea. My suggestion for anybody heading in that direction is human wizard 4/wizard of High Sorcery 3/renegade hunter 1. Pick up Spell Focus as a 1st level feat, Track as the bonus feat for being human, and Craft Wondrous Item at 3rd (so you can have bracers of armor later). Pick up Improved Counterspell at 6th level. Dump as many skill points as you need to each level into the three required skills, which (if you're human and have a high Intelligence) shouldn't be too difficult to accomplish and still qualify for the WoHS. Take an Order Secret that's suitable, and Bob uth Bobdar is your Solamnic uncle.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Amaron Blackthorn
Hooray, too bad we have to wait until next month for the book.
It's always good to point out the cloud when you're tired of looking at the silver lining, huh?
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
No, you don't. You could qualify for this class once you reach 7th level wizard, but you'd have had to spend a lot of skill points on cross-class skills (Gather Information, Search, Sense Motive) and pick up at least one feat you probably wouldn't have bothered with otherwise (Track). Taking a level in ranger would help this along, as would a few other classes, but it was designed to allow for at least a single-classed wizard to take it.
I'll remind you at this point that you don't need to take the wizard of High Sorcery class once you pass the Test, although for the renegade hunter it's probably a very good idea. My suggestion for anybody heading in that direction is human wizard 4/wizard of High Sorcery 3/renegade hunter 1. Pick up Spell Focus as a 1st level feat, Track as the bonus feat for being human, and Craft Wondrous Item at 3rd (so you can have bracers of armor later). Pick up Improved Counterspell at 6th level. Dump as many skill points as you need to each level into the three required skills, which (if you're human and have a high Intelligence) shouldn't be too difficult to accomplish and still qualify for the WoHS. Take an Order Secret that's suitable, and Bob uth Bobdar is your Solamnic uncle.
Cheers,
Cam
Ah. Thank You I was not sure whether he would have to take the WoHS PrC or not. I don't have my gaming materials with me right now.
The guy that wants to take the Renegade Hunter PrC is a 2nd-level Wizard/1st-level Fighter. I know he mentioned needing Track as one of the feats.
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Originally posted by Cam Banks
You could qualify for this class once you reach 7th level wizard, but you'd have had to spend a lot of skill points on cross-class skills (Gather Information, Search, Sense Motive) and pick up at least one feat you probably wouldn't have bothered with otherwise (Track). Taking a level in ranger would help this along, as would a few other classes, but it was designed to allow for at least a single-classed wizard to take it.
Then that is a good design shift from the DLCS and the AoM, where you were required to have a prestige class in the Solamnic Knighthood and Legion of Steel to get the prestige class you really wanted.
Now, if I figure out how to turn the "Order Secrets" into metamagic feats, I can dump the WoHS prestige class itself. I simply don't like the enforced specialization, or the way that the second specialization is handled, so I really only want to keep the Order Secrets.
Plus, I think that having certain abilities that enhance spells to cause more damage than normal without requiring an increased spell level might be an error in design.
Originally posted by LordofIllusions
Ah. Thank You I was not sure whether he would have to take the WoHS PrC or not. I don't have my gaming materials with me right now.
The Towers of High Sorcery sourcebook addresses a number of issues that have been raised in the past year since the DLCS was released, and may even open up some new questions now that Wizard's Conclave is out. I think it's probably the finest product Sovereign Press have done thus far, and I'm not kidding. There should be a wealth of useful information in there for people who don't really care about rules, and a ton of rules options and additional elements for those who're really looking for that.
Plus, the art is unbelievably good.
Not long now!
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
The Towers of High Sorcery sourcebook addresses a number of issues that have been raised in the past year since the DLCS was released, and may even open up some new questions now that Wizard's Conclave is out. I think it's probably the finest product Sovereign Press have done thus far, and I'm not kidding. There should be a wealth of useful information in there for people who don't really care about rules, and a ton of rules options and additional elements for those who're really looking for that.
Plus, the art is unbelievably good.
Not long now!
Cheers,
Cam
Man that is what I am LOOKING for. This book will be worth the wait I am sure. Oh yeah Cam, I just wanted to apologize for the little disagreement we had a while back. I like your work and appreciate what your doing for the DL line.
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Originally posted by Cam Banks
here should be a wealth of useful information in there for people who don't really care about rules
That'd be me. Sounds sweet. ;)
Originally posted by LordofIllusions
Man that is what I am LOOKING for. This book will be worth the wait I am sure. Oh yeah Cam, I just wanted to apologize for the little disagreement we had a while back. I like your work and appreciate what your doing for the DL line.
I'm just a freelancer - Jamie, Margaret, Sean Everette and Renae are the ones who're really making the effort to pull these things together! But I appreciate the nice words.
Cheers,
Cam
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Originally posted by LordofIllusions
I haven't seen Chris online in awhile. He on vacation or something ?
Who knows. Hopefully it's because he's hard at work writing Spectre of Sorrows.
All in fun of course;)
Seriously I agree with Brim on this....I really hope he is finishing up the series, I just today got my copy and hope to see this story unfold as soon as I can....Keep em comin Chris!
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Originally posted by LordofIllusions
I do not have my DLCS on me at the time what are the requirements for the WoHS PrC again ? I know one is something about specialization or am I wrong ? One of my players is sitting here and wants to know.
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Going from memory here...
7 ranks in Spellcraft
Any 2 item creation or metamagic feats. A wizard's Scribe Scroll at 1st level counts for this.
Ability to prepare and cast 2nd level arcane spells.
Spell Focus feat (typically school of specialization)
Specialization is required according to the DLCS. According to Age of Mortals, you can be a generalist wizard (not specializing) but you don't gain the benefits of the enhanced specialization.
Hopefully I didn't miss anything there, but I think that's it. Not bad going from memory, huh? ;)
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Going from memory here...
7 ranks in Spellcraft
Any 2 item creation or metamagic feats. A wizard's Scribe Scroll at 1st level counts for this.
Ability to prepare and cast 2nd level arcane spells.
Spell Focus feat (typically school of specialization)
Specialization is required according to the DLCS. According to Age of Mortals, you can be a generalist wizard (not specializing) but you don't gain the benefits of the enhanced specialization.
Hopefully I didn't miss anything there, but I think that's it. Not bad going from memory, huh? ;)
Towers of High Sorcery represents the Wizards of High Sorcery prestige class with the generalist option included, plus a few clarifications based on playtests and player feedback.
Jamie Chambers
Sovereign Press, Inc.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Going from memory here...
7 ranks in Spellcraft
Any 2 item creation or metamagic feats. A wizard's Scribe Scroll at 1st level counts for this.
Ability to prepare and cast 2nd level arcane spells.
Spell Focus feat (typically school of specialization)
Specialization is required according to the DLCS. According to Age of Mortals, you can be a generalist wizard (not specializing) but you don't gain the benefits of the enhanced specialization.
Hopefully I didn't miss anything there, but I think that's it. Not bad going from memory, huh? ;)
Not bad at all. Thank you Dragonhelm.
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Originally posted by Amaron Blackthorn
Can you mix one item creation feat and a metamagic feat in order to qualify for the class?
Yes. It's often a good idea to do so.
Cheers,
Cam
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Originally posted by Cam Banks
Yes. It's often a good idea to do so.
Cheers,
Cam
Thanks for the clairification! My players will enjoy this bit of news.
Originally posted by Cam Banks
It's always good to point out the cloud when you're tired of looking at the silver lining, huh?
Cheers,
Cam
:heehee
To the topic at hand, it'd be interesting to see if the ToHS book covers the "borrowing" of magic items by fellow wizards of High Sorcery. I know that in previous novels there have been instances where such wizards have been loaned magic items of varying powers in order to accomplish certain tasks. Whether in the form of an actual rules subset or roleplaying suggestions, such coverage would be interesting to read.
I know it's not likely, but a discussion of the relationship (or lack thereof) the Wizards of High Sorcery have had with lands beyond Ansalon would be nice (e.g. pre-1st cataclysm Ice Reach).
Originally posted by iltharanos
To the topic at hand, it'd be interesting to see if the ToHS book covers the "borrowing" of magic items by fellow wizards of High Sorcery. I know that in previous novels there have been instances where such wizards have been loaned magic items of varying powers in order to accomplish certain tasks. Whether in the form of an actual rules subset or roleplaying suggestions, such coverage would be interesting to read.
I'm not sure what advice or rules you'd need for this. It's more like, "Uh, hey. Can I borrow your wand of fireball?" and "Sure. Bring it back when you're done blowing up Sanction."
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
I'm not sure what advice or rules you'd need for this. It's more like, "Uh, hey. Can I borrow your wand of fireball?" and "Sure. Bring it back when you're done blowing up Sanction."
Cheers,
Cam
Well, once I got a look at the Renegade Hunter PrC, it instantly got me thinking about said Hunter going out on specific missions at the Conclave's behest. With this mission-framework in mind it seemed reminiscent of Dept. 7 missions in d20 Modern, where the agents in question could requisition certain equipment depending on the mission assigned.
e.g.
Conclave: Yes, Hunter, go forth and bring back the Purple-robed Enchanter of Caergoth, he has been abusing his magic.
Hunter: Yes Masters. Purple Robe has powerful enchantment spells, yes?
Conclave: Of course. Go to the magical armory and speak with Master Pyro about acquiring a Ring of Mind Shielding, such an item should greatly aid in your endeavor.
Hunter: Yes Masters.
Of course our Hunter would return the requisitioned magic item upon the successful completion of his mission. All of this could of course be done purely with roleplaying, but specific rules covering such situations (as in d20 Modern) would be cool as well.
Hmm, another thing that I have been wondering about is the Wizard of High Sorcery's Item of Power. Given the existing rules, this item of power can't be more than 4,000 stl in value. Yet Raistlin received a major artifact after he passed his Test, something worth far more than 4,000 stl. Via the novels, he understood very few of the powers of the Staff of Magius when he first received it ... but as he himself grew in power, so did his "Item of Power". Fantasy Flight Games has something similar with their Midnight Campaign where items gain more powers (or the owner uncovers more of an item's power) and become more powerful as their owners gain in level. I'd love to know if the ToHS book expands on these items of power in much the same way, or if they chose a different route, or whether they left the rules as is.