Raistlin is not admirable

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

ferratus

Jul 15, 2004 13:32:17

Seriously...if we're going to turn this into a "which Majere is better" can we start a new thread? (although it appears the original topic is dead in the water. )

- Arek Brimstone
#2

zombiegleemax

Jul 15, 2004 13:44:53
I tend to see Raistlin as one who was ambitious, but not in a telling people what to do sort of way....dont get me wrong, I think thats part of what he wanted, but not the whole picture. I believe he had an extreme inferiority complex and desired very much to prove to himself that he could be superior to all. Which of course is why he wouldnt have been happy with merely ruling the world. When it is shown in Legends that he attained godhood and defeated all the gods....I believe that that was his plan all along, not only did he want to be superior to all mortals, he wanted to be superior to the gods themselves....which in turn would be payback to the gods for cursing him with such a rotten deal in life (his opinion of course). The dangerous thing about Raistlin is that he had the power to actually do this.
#3

zombiegleemax

Jul 15, 2004 13:48:55
Raistlin is evil and a complex character. Sometimes what we forget is that life can be hard on people and adds to some of the decisions that we make. The Queen would have won the War of the Lance had it not been for Raistlin. THe gods would never have found the world again during the War of Souls if not for Raistlin. We need to remeber this.
#4

frostdawn

Jul 15, 2004 16:41:58
I mostly agree with Serena's take on this. Raistlin I always saw as the person trying to prove to himself that he is more than his frail body would suggest, that he is powerful. He grew up as the kind of outcast, the one the other kids didn't want to deal with because he looked sickly, and wasn't popular like Caramon was. When he discovered magic, he found a source of power that made him strong, and something that he could excel at. This became an addiction and obsession for him. The sickness that befell him after taking his test was a brutal reminder of his frailty, so he kept striving for more and more power to offset his insecurities. Commanding others was a bit of a power trip for him, especially with Caramon. Caramon was this big, physically imposing and impressive guy that was popular with everyone, and Raistlin got to 'control' him and basically make him do whatever he wanted. I don't think Raistlin ever persued magic and power in order to tell others off, but instead did so to make people see beyond his insecurities and cynicism, and make himself feel strong. Commanding others was a nice side effect of having strived for the acquisition of power which is all he wanted, even to the point of obsession (overthrowing the gods).
#5

eaglos

Jul 15, 2004 17:21:45
Ok, my approach to the whole Raistlin's complex is much more simplistic. Yes, Raist was smarter than Caramon but the latter was better in everything else. "Everything" means the things that they had to do everyday when they were teenagers.

Caramon had the charm. He was likeable and everybody wanted him around. This, of course, meant that Caramon would get all the nice ladies and Raistlin would be left with his .... magic. So, Raist had nowhere to direct his urges and he become a spoiled brat. Magic was his only pleasure and he became obsessed (spelling) with it. He wanted to "avenge" all those who mocked him.

I believe that, in the end, he became a bit deranged. He chose the love of Magic over Crysania's and he carried on with the "Must become God" plan.

In conclusion: Problematic childhood, frail body amd lack of sex were the main reasons for his weird behaviour
#6

baron_the_curse

Jul 15, 2004 18:22:13
Since childhood Raistlin learn to become a clever manipulator. He was shrewd and ambitious and would always find a way to get things to go his way through whatever means necessary. He was cursed with frail health but had a burly twin brother at his beckon. We know that despite Raistlin’s treatment of Caramon he loved his brother. Raistlin was bitter and ambitious, perhaps he did have an inferior complex, and needed to proof to himself that he could be powerful. However, he did have a kind heart for those less fortunate than the common folk, the sick, and the downtrodden. At some point Raistlin did stumble in his live and fell to the darkness but let us not forget that he has redeemed himself countless times. He could have had it all but choose to do the right thing. As far I’m concerned Raistlin was the greatest Archmage to ever walked Krynn.
#7

zombiegleemax

Jul 15, 2004 18:25:50
That he was the greatest mage to walk Krynn goes uncontested, as the Orders tend to agree there. That still doesnt make him a good guy....every good thing he did was only done because it benefitted himself as well.
#8

zombiegleemax

Jul 15, 2004 18:29:50
Welcome to human beings and their self-serving nature.
#9

baron_the_curse

Jul 15, 2004 18:29:59
He did sacrificed himself before the Dark Queen. I don't see how he won anything from that act, save that he become an instant hero.

And he did find Krynn for the gods. At that point in his life (unlive) I don't think it matter much to him if the gods found Krynn or not. He did it all the same though.
#10

zombiegleemax

Jul 15, 2004 18:35:20
Dont fool yourself......The only reason he did so was because he knew it to be true that he would rule over a dead world....his eternity without purpose, reason, or rhyme. If he had had any inkling that he would have had a successful run at godhood he would have pressed on, not sacrificing himself.......as a matter of fact I am very certain he even stated this to Palin.
#11

true_blue

Jul 15, 2004 18:36:54
He didnt really sacrifice himself tothe Queen for the world... basically he didnt leave because he saw what the future would bring...him a God in a lonely place feeding upon himself. He stayed to close the gate to help himself, not really to do something "good". I think he had to close the gate from the inside..so he stayed and did it so that the Queen wouldnt get out and take over the world or he would kill the Queen and then have an eternity of nothing.
#12

baron_the_curse

Jul 15, 2004 18:39:39
On this point were going to halt to a stalemate.

I do concede that on that moment in the Abyss if Raistlin would have conceived a future for himself as a god with a more successful world, as oppose to a dead world, he would have likely pressed on. However, I don’t feel in his final days on Krynn Raistlin was evil by any means, maybe not a good guy, but not an evil guy either.
#13

zombiegleemax

Jul 15, 2004 20:22:54
This is just my opinion and anyone whom does not like it doesn't have to.


Ok, the way I see it is this. I think that Magic Users in the Dragon Lance world are well aware that there is more to the universe then just Krynn. I think they are aware of "Other Planes", of Ravenloft, and so on and so forth. Perhaps he knows that Takhsisis's 'Abyss' is just one layer of 666, with beings like Demogorgon, Orcus, Lolth, and others out there. Or that Takhisis's Abyss is really the First Plane of Hell, and that there are other planes with beings like Asmodeous out there. Perhaps aware that if he could defeat Takhisis and Paladine, he could surely defeat their Twin's, Bahamut and Tiamat.

As such, I think Raist wanted 'that chip in the big game' and was willing to do what it took to get there.
#14

zombiegleemax

Jul 15, 2004 22:42:19
Perhaps aware that if he could defeat Takhisis and Paladine, he could surely defeat their Twin's, Bahamut and Tiamat.

First off, point of detail: Takhisis and Paladine are NOT the twins of Tiamat and Bahamut. They ARE Tiamat and Bahamut. If you check their old, Istarian names, they're "Ti'mut" and "Ba'mut" or something similar. They just go by different names on Krynn.

And while it's never been stated, I think that most gods split their personalities to deal with different worlds, since most other gods that recur from setting to setting (Corellon, Moradin, Lolth) don't seem concerned, or even to acknowledge, other worlds. My theory is that there is a Bahamut for Krynn, and one for Greyhawk, and one for Toril. And they aren't necessarily aware of each other, but they're all part of a larger being, which is aware of them all. But that's another thread, possibly on another board.

Alright, now, on to Raistlin. How, exactly, is being tortured forever by the Queen of Darkness better than ruling over an empty world? But I figure, while he was evil, he had a line, one he would not cross. This is true of a lot of evil characters. And completely annihilating every living thing on the planet was a little bit over this line.

Further, taking over the world is not necessarily a WHOLLY evil motive. After all, *I* want to take over the world, and I don't necessarily consider myself evil. I simply think I could run it better. Raistlin, seeing himself as vastly mentally superior to....everyone, really, probably figured that the world would run better with him in charge, and maybe even that people would eventually be happier if he was in control.

Ultimately, I think it's really hard to say what Raistlin's ultimate motivations were, or his alignment, in the end. I thought he was a pretty cool character, though.
#15

zombiegleemax

Jul 15, 2004 22:49:44
Firstly, No...Takhisis and Paladine are not Bahamut and Tiamat. They were simply based from them. Check your information before posting something like that.

And secondly, Raistlin stated plainly to Palin his reasons, and they were not to save the world from oblivion. He would kill all if he needed to to achieve his goals. He just didnt want to be a failure, which is what he would have been if he had gone through with it
#16

baron_the_curse

Jul 15, 2004 23:14:43
DmJoeSolarte statements where so far off Dragonlance I couldn't even find a way to respond. Nicely done, guys.
#17

zombiegleemax

Jul 16, 2004 0:28:28
Yeah, but why not? Why not think that it was Raistlin's ambition to become a god and get into the big game?

I am well aware that the official line is that Takhisis and Paladine are not Bahamut and Tiamat. Which is why I refered to them as "their twin brothers/sisters" as it may be. Think about it? If Raist were to someday make his way to GreyHawk or Forgotten Realms and finds out about Bahamut/Tiamat, his reaction likely will be "Hey, I already beat them...."

I know it is hokey but why not?
#18

baron_the_curse

Jul 16, 2004 0:41:03
In 2nd Edition Dragonlance this would not be a problem. I would like to have seen Takhisis and Paladine meet Bahamut and Tiamat and have them wondered at their own existence.

In 2nd Edition just about everything crossed over. Hell, Dalamar shared spells with Elminster and all the great Grayhawk wizards somewhere in the planes. Now that doesn't work.
#19

zombiegleemax

Jul 16, 2004 2:05:57
And secondly, Raistlin stated plainly to Palin his reasons, and they were not to save the world from oblivion. He would kill all if he needed to to achieve his goals. He just didnt want to be a failure, which is what he would have been if he had gone through with it

And somehow, giving in and being consigned to the abyss was a success?

No, that sounds like a justification, after the fact, by Raistlin, because he didn't want to admit to being soft.

And I hold to Paladine and Takhisis being reflections/aspects of Bahamut and Tiamat. Again, their Istarian names are too much to pass off.
#20

cam_banks

Jul 16, 2004 4:49:05
Originally posted by Khaibit_Ema_Neteru
And I hold to Paladine and Takhisis being reflections/aspects of Bahamut and Tiamat. Again, their Istarian names are too much to pass off.

Those names are a nod by the designers to the conceptual origins of the two gods, not an admission that they aer to be considered the same as the (lesser powered) dragon rulers of other worlds. Remember that in 1st edition AD&D, Tiamat and Bahamut were not gods but unique and singularly powerful dragons who ruled dragons of their respective alignments. They were elevated to godhood by later products, and Dragonlance was the first to be inspired by them in such a way.

Cheers,
Cam
#21

true_blue

Jul 16, 2004 5:26:20
Personally, I don't see how anyone can think that Raistlin did any of that stuff as a good deed..or for unselfish reasons. As I said before, he didnt leave the Abyss because he saw the future...he knew he wouldn't amount to anything and basically have an eternity of nothing. He chose the Abyss instead..maybe hoping Paladine may take pity on him and save him, who knows.

I don't like the part of the War of Souls where Raistlin is the one who finds Krynn. I just find it amazing the gods couldnt be he could. But I could even get past that..even though it would bother me. My problem is Raistlin just kept popping up and to me it was just annoying. It almost seemed like because of his popularity in the Chronicles and Legends..he became a favorite and they were just trying to cash in on him..and no not to make money..but to say soemthing like "hey one of your favorite characters is back..read about him more!". Personally.. I like to think of him as being accidently conjured for Palin's test...giving him the Staff of Magius..and then eventually be at peace..like in Caramon's dream he had.

Having Raistlin keep coming back just kept leaving a bad taste in my mouth.
#22

quentingeorge

Jul 16, 2004 6:52:22
Bah, Fistandantilus is a far more admirable character for me.

He's as evil, self-centred and amoral as Raistlin but at least he doesn't blame anyone else or his upbringing for his actions.

Plus he doesn't whine and go through all that tortured angst.

:D
#23

zombiegleemax

Jul 16, 2004 11:04:58
Originally posted by Serena DarkMyst

And secondly, Raistlin stated plainly to Palin his reasons, and they were not to save the world from oblivion. He would kill all if he needed to to achieve his goals. He just didnt want to be a failure, which is what he would have been if he had gone through with it

Wasnt this apart of Palin's test. Was it part of the Test or Raistlin being Raistlin?
#24

zombiegleemax

Jul 16, 2004 17:20:26
My problem is Raistlin just kept popping up and to me it was just annoying. It almost seemed like because of his popularity in the Chronicles and Legends..he became a favorite and they were just trying to cash in on him..and no not to make money..but to say soemthing like "hey one of your favorite characters is back..read about him more!".

*Cough* Elminster *Cough*
*Cough* Pug *Cough*

There is nothing I cannot stand more than one mage that never dies. In fact that is one of the reasons that I like Raistlin. He could and did die. Maybe it is just some part of me that identifies more with a mortal character but I just hate the mages that have been around for eons.
#25

zombiegleemax

Jul 16, 2004 22:33:56
I know this is off topic, but I got to ask. What exactly was Caramon addicted to and how did he overcome it? (I don't mind spoilers...no time to read all those DL books! There are just too many.)
#26

quentingeorge

Jul 16, 2004 22:35:42
He was addicted to Dwarf spirits.

He really only got over it through the training regimen they put him through in the gladiatorial games at Istar.
#27

katt_nightstalker_02

Jul 17, 2004 7:00:29
Originally posted by DmJoeSolarte
This is just my opinion and anyone whom does not like it doesn't have to.


Ok, the way I see it is this. I think that Magic Users in the Dragon Lance world are well aware that there is more to the universe then just Krynn. I think they are aware of "Other Planes", of Ravenloft, and so on and so forth. Perhaps he knows that Takhsisis's 'Abyss' is just one layer of 666, with beings like Demogorgon, Orcus, Lolth, and others out there. Or that Takhisis's Abyss is really the First Plane of Hell, and that there are other planes with beings like Asmodeous out there. Perhaps aware that if he could defeat Takhisis and Paladine, he could surely defeat their Twin's, Bahamut and Tiamat.

As such, I think Raist wanted 'that chip in the big game' and was willing to do what it took to get there.

*ahem*
No. the DL world is COMPLETLY SEPERATE from all others. Krynn has its OWN cosmology that DOES NOT mesh with the ravenloft or FR or Mystra, or spelljammer, or anything else, EVER.
#28

zombiegleemax

Jul 17, 2004 9:32:48
Originally posted by Katt Nightstalker
*ahem*
No. the DL world is COMPLETLY SEPERATE from all others. Krynn has its OWN cosmology that DOES NOT mesh with the ravenloft or FR or Mystra, or spelljammer, or anything else, EVER.

True, but we the people can try to believe whatever we like, and I try to put some things together. There are times where I agree, that Krynn is completely seperate and isolated from the rest of the universe; similarly, in my campaign, Mystara is actually a continent on Krynn, located north of Ansalon. But again, that is just me.
#29

zombiegleemax

Jul 19, 2004 10:54:54
Actually Takhisis's realm of the Abyss was actually the first layer of the 9 Hells.
#30

cam_banks

Jul 19, 2004 11:05:08
Originally posted by Amaron Blackthorn
Actually Takhisis's realm of the Abyss was actually the first layer of the 9 Hells.

Which is what he said.

Cheers,
Cam
#31

zombiegleemax

Jul 19, 2004 11:07:04
And I simply restated it!