Ok first of all we need the following books:
- Expanded Psionics Handbook
- Complete Divine
Than we take a look at the PRACTICED SPELLCASTER feat of the Complete Divie (p.82):
This feat increases the caster level of a choosen spellcasting class by 4.
Than we take a look at the CEREBREMANCER PrC of the Expanded Psionics Handbook (p. 141/142):
Prerequisites: Able to cast 2nd level spells and able to manifest 2nd lvl powers
Every level of the Cerebremancer class increases a level of an arcane spellcasting class and a level of a manifestint class.
With this feat and this PrC it is possible to cast 9th level spells and manifest 9th level powers with a class level of 20.
How? Just like this:
After being Psion 3/wizard 3 take the Cerebremancer PrC until you are Psion 3/wizard 3/Cerebremancer 10. The class level is now 16 and you have 6 feats + 1 bonus feat of the psion class (+1 being human). Take as one of these feats the Practiced Spellcaster feat and choose the wizard class to gain the benefits of it.
You are now able to cast 9th level spells and manifest 7th level powers. All you need to do now is to take 4 further levels in the psion class and you're now able to cast 9th level spells and manifest 9th level powers being a Psion 7/Wizard 3/Cerebremancer 10 with a class level of 20.
Ok it's a kind of min/maxing, but it works and it's official. ;)
Ok it's a kind of min/maxing, but it works and it's official.
I would allow such a character to begin the first stage of dragon metamorphosis under those conditions at character level 20. Then I would sit back and laugh as his character's body immoliates from within until it bursts charred organs and gore over a considerable radius.
Originally posted by Tha Nomad
Ok you all know that I dont play third ed, but why not create a dragon/avion PRC (This may be done I havent seen your dragon rightups) So you work it so that at 20/20 (or higher) you can opt to pick up a dragon Prc. It sounds simple enuff.
I'm not gonna get into, yet again, but I am ever so against the 20/20 level requirements, it's not funny. If you want to see my reasons why, look for posts dealing with Dragons and Avangions in this forum, there are TONS and TONS.
I'm not gonna get into, yet again, but I am ever so against the 20/20 level requirements, it's not funny. If you want to see my reasons why, look for posts dealing with Dragons and Avangions in this forum, there are TONS and TONS.
I've read these threats too, and thing that came mostly up, that 20/20 is very high, but to become a dragon you have to be able to cast 9th level spells and manifest 9th level powers. Well is I allready mentioned this is a suggestion, not more not less.
I think that become a dragon these prerequisites are a must. being able to manifest 6th level powers is to low and I thougt you made this up, so that Hamanu could be able to be dragon with having fighter skills (having levels in the PsW class).
The character I presented above would have a base attack of 14 and a base Fort save of 10, which is somehow to low I think. Pushing the prerequisites to ...let's say....BaB +20 and base Fort save +15, you have to take more class levels in other classes, for example fighter or something else. With this, it is possible to have a more fighing orientated dragon (like Hamanu) or a extreme spellcasting/manifesting orientated dragon (like Kalak?).
Personally I think all SKs should have a PrC (something like "Champion of Rajat") that is based on the Cerebremancer PrC, but giving them more benefits.
Originally posted by Tha Nomad
Xlorp you have also mentioned that they are "epic" level characters Which as im reading it (previos post) is like level 40, which by 3rd ed a 20/20 is 40, BUT I did put or higher, and if needs to be lower fine, I ADMIT i dont know the 3.5 system, but for a simplified system, it shouldnt be that hard.
IIRC, epic level Characters have in 3ed and v3.5 a character class level of 21. This means a 11/10 character would have a character class level of 21 and would be epic.
Not so in 3e. If we take the "as powerful as a 24th lvl fighter" metric, then 3e advanced beings would be 12th lvl psion/ 12th lvl caster. On the other hand, if we take the "20+ lvls in each class" metric, then we won't see any dragons or avangions or elementals until the fighters in the party are 40th lvl.
Pretty much the central issue in deciding on advanced being mechanics for 3.5e DS is the aesthetic choice between these two metrics. Neither one of them is going to preserve exactly everything that one liked about 2e rules.
In a way, this debate is a microcosm of the "Gods in D&D should/shouldn't have stats" debate. There are people who take very, very strong positions on either side, and these positions are essentially subjective aesthetic arguments about how players and DMs conceive of the nature of the gameworld. I have DMed and played in campaign where Gods were omnipotent statless beings, and ones where characters routinely battled and killed gods, and have immensely enjoyed both of them. I personally incline towards the "Gods have stats" position, because I think the quantification of everything is what makes the game of D&D (and yes, folks, it's just a game) so fun.
So my own personal opinion about what the relative power lvl of advanced beings is an outgrowth of all my experiences playing DS. When I read a proposal like Bengeldorn's, the questions I ask myself are "should dragons' power be tied to what they can cast/manifest? if so, should it be 9/9, or 6/6, or something even lower, or even higher? to strict lvl limits? if so, should this be char lvl 20, or char lvl 40, or somewhere in between? if there is 'more than one way to skin a cat', does this proposal fall inside or outside what i think the minimum absolute power lvl of a dragon should be?"
I incline to the view that the aesthetics of the novels should rule the aesthetics of the mechanics. So, taking a ballpark estimate from the stats given in the CSoT, Kalak was taken out by a party of 5 15th lvl characters. Bump up the difficulty a bit to make it really heroic, and for it being DS, and make it CR 21, then index that power lvl to a monster with taht CR, and what you get is about a 31 HD baddy with all the attendant abilities, at least on the dragon charts.
So I would probably agree with the others who have said that Bengeldorn's proposal should be allowed, but that other requirements like spellcraft and fortitude saves should make it prohibitive (except maybe on a roll of a natural 20 or something like that.)
as for the original SK's I give them all the Champion of Rajaat Template
template adds +4 to ECL)+4 bonus to all stats
immunity to poison, energy drain, polymorph, sleep, paralysis, and death effects.
If you use the write-up on Dra#319/Dun#110
I explain Aztezuk as a SK by having Aztezuk use Rajaat's temple in the Troll Grave Chasm to advance himself to SK/Champion status(spell rods were missing so his tranformation was limited to 23rd level.)
Androponis has a good enough explanation nothing further needed.
There could also be one or two more Advanced beings with the power to grant Templar spells. Kalak's and Abalach-Re's elemental vortices may have survived long enough to become attached to another advanced being casting a metamorphosis spell ((In my old campaign I did this with Amiska, an avangion in an old DS short story)).
Originally posted by Tha Nomad
Xlorp you have also mentioned that they are "epic" level characters Which as im reading it (previos post) is like level 40, which by 3rd ed a 20/20 is 40, BUT I did put or higher, and if needs to be lower fine, I ADMIT i dont know the 3.5 system, but for a simplified system, it shouldnt be that hard.
Epic characters are defined as any character, by whatever means possible, that has reached above level 21. 20/20 requirements in 3/3.5e cripples a character, especially one dealing with magical spellcasting and psionic manifesting., making them half as powerful as a character who is not a spellcaster or manifester, or one who did not divide their levels and went for a straight 40 levels in a spellcaster or in a manifester class.
Originally posted by Bengeldorn
I've read these threats too, and thing that came mostly up, that 20/20 is very high, but to become a dragon you have to be able to cast 9th level spells and manifest 9th level powers. Well is I allready mentioned this is a suggestion, not more not less.
And in those threads, I posted several reasons why I felt the requirements for both magic and psionics at 9th level were not effective for the character's development, which is why I changed it to 9th level magic, but only 6th level psionics.
I think that become a dragon these prerequisites are a must. being able to manifest 6th level powers is to low and I thougt you made this up, so that Hamanu could be able to be dragon with having fighter skills (having levels in the PsW class).
I didn't make it just for Hamanu. I made it that way because making a single character mandated to equal levels in psionic and magical class levels cripples them mechanically - completely. I know that, because I have actually (GASP) run games where people have done similar things, in an atempt to see what it does, and they fell really short of what other characters could do. If you don't believe me, playtest it - a character who splits his resources like that becomes extremely weak. My adjustment does not completely remove this problem - but it does mitigate it somewhat. And since I have the advanced being still advancing +1 level in their spellcasting and in their manifesting class, for the purposes of everything related to caster and manifester levels, including new spells per day, new spells known, new power points, powers known and maximum power level. I chose 6th level because it was convinient with the way the Psychic Warrior was set up by WotC, and that's the highest level that class can manifest.
The character I presented above would have a base attack of 14 and a base Fort save of 10, which is somehow to low I think. Pushing the prerequisites to ...let's say....BaB +20 and base Fort save +15, you have to take more class levels in other classes, for example fighter or something else. With this, it is possible to have a more fighing orientated dragon (like Hamanu) or a extreme spellcasting/manifesting orientated dragon (like Kalak?).
Personally I think all SKs should have a PrC (something like "Champion of Rajat") that is based on the Cerebremancer PrC, but giving them more benefits.
Well, with a Base Fort Save of 10, there would be (in my write-up) a 5% chance of survival when attempting each and every stage's spell for Dragons. This means, that character would most likely die.
Originally posted by Anorien Ssirinthil
Dragons and Avangions are indeed epic level characters however with epic characters we also have to think of the adventures(ie encounters) that must come their way in order to progress. Since in 3E your experience gain is relative to the CR of the encounter it would be EXTREMELY difficult to advance to ultra-high levels especially with the situation on Athas. In my campaign A Dragon or Avangion must be at a minimum Psion7/Wizard7/Cerebremancer 10 to even try to research the metamorphosis spell. (ability to cast 9th lvl spells/manifest 9th lvl powers)
as for the original SK's I give them all the Champion of Rajaat Template
+4 bonus to all stats
immunity to poison, energy drain, polymorph, sleep, paralysis, and death effects.
I too have a Champion of Rajaat template. But it's a bit more advanced, and has a variety of abilities that really makes hunting a specific race easier. I built it by modifying and borrowing ideas from Deities & Demigods.
Originally posted by Tha Nomad
OK, IM SORRY that we had to **** this chicken again.... Xlorp, I know your tired of it, so Ima let it rest. well later
It's not that I'm tired of the topic, just the redundancy involved here.
nic
Originally posted by Cap'n Nick
in regards to the 5% issue, you could include a provision within the spell that an increase in the life energy sacrificed would increase the chances for survival, through super-charging the dragon-to-be with life energy, thus making it more likely that they will survive the ordeal.
nic
I have that in the system. So far, everyone who's seen it said that it's overcomplicated, so I've been attempting to find a better solution to the same thing. However, the thing is, there's a LOT of things that goes into the spell. Besides the 5% chance of success on the Fort Save, there's the spellcraft check needed to be able to actually research the spell in order to cast it, and the fact you gotta have Epic Spellcasting, which you can't get till level 21 anyway.