In addition, if someone could list sources of info on the world SErpent, it would be appreciated.
I'm eager to know how far from Planescape to Forgotten Realms went this time...;)
Page 55: Just assume that Merrshaulk slew the Realms aspect of Jazirian. The couatl deity is still alive, just not active on Toril. Or ignore that paragraph completely.
The index: A lot of those dieties are new/FR specific.
I don't know how much of SK contradicts earlier incarnations of the World Serpent mythos, so I'll let someone else handle that.
Originally posted by Brun
It'd be nice to expand on said info, for those of us who do not (or do not yet) own a copy of serpent kingdoms.
I'm eager to know how far from Planescape to Forgotten Realms went this time...;)
Not too far...if you ignore the references to the 3.x FR cosmology and a couple of throwaway lines (the aquatic shapechanger creator race became the slaadi?) It includes things like Shekinester's aspects (although it added two in total defiance of the Rule of Threes) and her keeping the eternal flame, Merrshaulk (who is a different entity than Sseth), Set, the khaasta, etc. Anything in SK is a short hop from Planescape compared to the Player's Guide cosmology.
As for Sseth, I know that he was just the Realms incarnation of Merrshaulk, which is more or less what SK said. I suppose that if Ssharstrune, like you said, was a new creation, than I might as well ignore him for the sake of continuity. Therefor, ignoring the addition of 2 aspects of Shekinester should be ignored as well. That's good, because it makes the distribution of the World Serpent's power much more confusing.
I think ignoring the paragraph about the origin of the coutls would be a good idea, especially since I just about finished reconciling the role Jazirian played in the Guide to Hell stuff with more traditional planescape sources. However, I did post a thread about the connection between the Aztec and Maztican gods (the later of which is mentioned in the page 55 paragraph. Just wanting to stear people towards that thread).
I think ignoring all the new deities they apparently made up would be smart, except for Varae, whose existence really doesn't affect anyone, and actually makes sense.
Any additional sources of info on the World Serpent would be appreciated.
Originally posted by Tebryn14
As for Sseth, I know that he was just the Realms incarnation of Merrshaulk, which is more or less what SK said. I suppose that if Ssharstrune, like you said, was a new creation, than I might as well ignore him for the sake of continuity. Therefor, ignoring the addition of 2 aspects of Shekinester should be ignored as well. That's good, because it makes the distribution of the World Serpent's power much more confusing.
SK also seems to imply that Sseth is a completely different creature than Merrshaulk, at most a rogue avatar, since for a while Merrshaulk was sleeping in the Abyss while Sseth was wide awake and running the show on Toril.
Adding two extra elements doesn't do much in a 3.5 FR game, but it's annoying to deal with in a Planescape game (Rule-of-Threes and all that; fortunately, I have Rule 0 to fall back on ;) ).
Originally posted by Graz'zt, Prince of Shadow
who only has three aspects, btw, not the ridiculous five that she has in SK
]Giving her five aspects causes her to lose the association she had with the Hindu Trimurti or various triple-goddesses, but it does make her a more all encompassing goddess. She's still not the equal of Io, with his nine aspects.
The index: A lot of those dieties are new/FR specific.
I don't know how much of SK contradicts earlier incarnations of the World Serpent mythos, so I'll let someone else handle that.
I like the new scaly gods a lot, especially the one that's made up of hundreds of tiny snakes, and the neutral good one who seeks to "purify" the non-scaly races in order to make them worthy for ritual sacrifice.
I didn't get the impression in Monster Mythology that the World Serpent was an actual deity - just an archetype that deities were derived from, like an alignment or an element. But considering it to be an ancient deity that fragmented from various conflicts among its worshippers isn't really a contradiction.
quote:
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Originally posted by DreadStar
Rich
Serpent Kingdom talks about the FR gods Varae and Mersshaulk but, it doesn't say much about them. The only thing I found was the in 2nd edition FR book P&P and that just seem to say Mersshaulk went to sleep for a 1000 years and came back as Sseth.
What book has info on Varae and Mersshaulk?
Also on the Wizards website there is a page about what happen in the ToT and it says the god Set kill Sseth and could control of his Portfolio?
Thanks
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In 2e, the generic book "Monstrous Mythology" introduced the god Merrshaulk as the god of the yuan-ti, a relatively sleepy god who was evil but didn't do much.
Likewise, in early 2e, the module "Shadowdale" had a one-line mention of the beast-cult god of snakes Varae and the module FA1 - Halls of the High King had a one line mention of a yuan-ti worshiping Sseth.
When I wrote Powers & Pantheons, I tried to keep the gods as Realms-centric as possible. Therefore, the yuan-ti god of the Realms was Sseth, not Merrshaulk, and Varae also had clerics. That said, in 2e, all the campaigns shared a common cosmology. My solution was to say that Merrshaulk had basically been "reborn" as Sseth, although whether that was a Bane/Iyachtu Xvim analog or an endlessly reincarnating Siamorphe thing I left purposefully vague. I also used arrival of Sseth to explain the latest incarnation of the empire of yuan-ti long enough ago to be forgotten but recent enough to be part of the "main timeline" (i.e. within the past several thousand years).
Then FRCS came along and said that Set "killed" Sseth. This was one of the few things I really didn't like about FRCS, but in the end, it inspired most of the "story" of Serpent Kingdoms. (This is the best thing about the Realms: explaining the inconsistencies generates the new stories time and again.) Ed, Darrin, and I created the idea of the Okothian sarrukh (Okoth being a one-page vague mention in Dragon a ways back as part of an Elminster's Note column) betraying Sseth to Set and binding him into eternal slumber in the wake of the ToT. This explained the FRCS change, preserving continuity, and Sseth's ensuing nightmares motivate why the long-somnolent yuan-ti and even longer-somnolent sarrukh are finally stirring NOW (and not last century and not next century).
In other words, most of the info on Sseth/Varae/Merrshaulk can be found in Powers & Pantheons (if you have the 2e source, not necessary though) and Serpent Kingdoms. In specific, think of Varae as a beast cult deity worshiped by the ophidians of the Serpent Hills, by wacky beast cultists in eastern Calimshan, and as the state religion in Hlondeth. One could infer that Varae was part of the Jhaamdathan pantheon, although that's not been clearly stated (I don't think). Few realize he's just an aspect of Sseth [now Set]. Think of Merrshaulk as a separate fragment of the World Serpent that dominated the yuan-it religiously from the end of the sarrukh-ruled Mhairshaulk empire until the coming of hte mortal Sseth, some 23 millennia. After Sseth "ascended" (whatever that means), Merrshaulk became just a forgotten aspect of Sseth.
The image I had in my mind, but never wrote down, was that Sseth went through a portal to Merrshaulk's realm under the Peaks of Flame and found the slumbering god and ate him. Does this mean that Sseth is Merrshaulk reborn or does that mean Sseth is Merrshaulk's successor? That's for the philosphers to debate. The replacement of Sseth by Set is a different story, told for the first time in Serpent Kingdoms.
Hopefully that answers your questions and more :-),
--Eric
Originally posted by Graz'zt, Prince of Shadow
Page 55: Just assume that Merrshaulk slew the Realms aspect of Jazirian. The couatl deity is still alive, just not active on Toril. Or ignore that paragraph completely.
2E Powers & Pantheons, pp.84-5: Sseth was an intermediate power, using aliases such as Merrshaulk, Varae, Squamata and Amphisbaena. When the sauroid proto-race fragmented, each group worship a different aspect of the World Serpent. The couatls, nagas, etc. were all evolutions from the ancient sauroid race. The yuan-ti empire collapsed, possibly due to a losing war with the couatl priests of Jazirian. After the defeat, Merrshaulk sank into a deep sleep for thousands of years... During Netheril's collapse, a yuan-ti called Sseth claimed to be the reincarnated avatar of the World Serpent. He then vanished beneath the Peaks of Flame. Modern sages suggested that Sseth slew Varae, a beast cult power, to extend his influence.
It seems that GTH does not hold true for FR since Jazirian was merely an aspect of the original World Serpent and the couatls are evolved descendants of the ancient sauriods. Also, Jazirian was male in naga myths, female in GTH and hermaphrodite to couatls...
P&P was post-TOT... and it mentions Sseth hating Jazirian. So Merrshaulk could not have killed J. since he was sleeping after losing the war... and Sseth was still hating Jazirian after TOT, a pretty good time for deicides.
Originally posted by ripvanwormer
I didn't get the impression in Monster Mythology that the World Serpent was an actual deity - just an archetype that deities were derived from, like an alignment or an element. But considering it to be an ancient deity that fragmented from various conflicts among its worshippers isn't really a contradiction.
Yes, Mons Myth merely speaks of it as an archetype, with Jazirian being seen as the most perfect of all World Serpent aspects. But P&P mentions that when the ancient sauriod race fragmented, the World Serpent broke down into different aspects along with the race.
Originally posted by Graz'zt, Prince of Shadow
(the aquatic shapechanger creator race became the slaadi?)
What? What? What?!
Originally posted by Seraph of Babel
It seems that GTH does not hold true for FR since Jazirian was merely an aspect of the original World Serpent and the couatls are evolved descendants of the ancient sauriods.
Heh, that assumes it holds true much elsewhere w/ regards to Jazirian et al. ;)
But P&P mentions that when the ancient sauriod race fragmented, the World Serpent broke down into different aspects along with the race.
Screed. Pure screed. The time scale for the rise and fall of the batrachian creator race on toril is nowhere on the map considering the time scale for the Slaadi in Limbo. It's a cute idea just completely and utterly wrong
But I can see some sages from FR thinking this, heck they've got the planes wrong even worse than the worst and most Krynn centric Krynnish sage ever. :D
Originally posted by Graz'zt, Prince of Shadow
(although it added two in total defiance of the Rule of Threes)
Shekinester whole and her five partial aspects. 6 total. The Rule of Threes is still alive and well. :D
Originally posted by Gez
Shekinester whole and her five partial aspects. 6 total. The Rule of Threes is still alive and well. :D
So... Weaver, Protector, Preserver, Procrastinater, Prevaricator, and um... Podiatrist?
What on earth would Nagas need a Podiatrist for??
Xanxost not here right now, so Vol acting for Xanxost.
Acrually, it's Acquirer, Empowerer, Seeker, Weaver, and Preserver. Each aspect correspond to one major Naga subrace. Dark Naga, Guardian Naga, Iridescent Naga, Spirit Naga, and Water Naga.
Also, each aspect correspond to one (cardinal, in a way) alignment: LE for Acquirer, LG for Empowerer, CG for Seeker, CE for Weaver, and N for Preserver.
You'll notice that of these, the Iridescent and Spirit Nagas are new; which explain and is explained by the two new aspects.
And you'll still find PS fans complaining about the decision to separate the Realms from the Great Wheel cosmology. It allows to limit the "too many cooks" syndrome, as it's not that great to have a regional sourcebook for a campaign setting shake the cosmology of another.
Anyway. This is the Forgotten Realms' lore and cosmology. It's no longer supposed to follow, nor to lead, Planescape material.
Originally posted by Gez
And you'll still find PS fans complaining about the decision to separate the Realms from the Great Wheel cosmology. It allows to limit the "too many cooks" syndrome, as it's not that great to have a regional sourcebook for a campaign setting shake the cosmology of another.
Anyway. This is the Forgotten Realms' lore and cosmology. It's no longer supposed to follow, nor to lead, Planescape material.
However, my question was about how accurate the information in this FR source book is from the Planescape point of view. Apparently, it draws on some key points, while distorting some of it in a way that makes one believe that it was written by someone with a very REalm-centric point of view, which it was.