But the point is: None of this would have happened if I hadn't spotted the LGG on the shelves and decided to give it a shot.
Now that the LGG is (apparently) out-of-print forever, where are the next generation of Greyhawk gamers supposed to come from? Articles in Dungeon sure as hell won't do it. They work as ads, as pointers, toward the core book, but if there is no core book, they won't do jack. "Where do I go from here?", thinks the player. If the answer is "nowhere", they'll shrug and move on to Eberron or something.
To put it bluntly, for most of the roleplaying public, a world without a core book in print is either a DEAD WORLD or a NONEXISTANT WORLD. Period.
What are we going to do? If WotC won't do what it takes to bring in new players, can't they at least licence Greyhawk to someone who will? Greyhawk needs to be more than a nostalgia trip or an insular RPGA-only affair. What percentage of gamers in even in the RPGA? Less than 1%, I'm sure.
This situation is UNJUST and INTOLERABLE.
GH is definitely now a nostalgia setting (since half its fans like it that way) and only by word of mouth and dedicated authors will it continue to get what little support it does. Licensing wise, I'm sure WotC knows that most 3rd party d20 systems won't dent their market share, but if GH was allowed to run free and compete, it would be dangerous to their cut of the pie. That's why it is kept on a leash.
I for one feel fortunate to be an old time gamer. I'm happy with my stockpile of GH stuff and I eat every scrap of new GH thrown at me. Only WotC or the RPGA should sweat bringing in new gamers to GH anyways. Meanwhile, I'll just wait out WotC and eventually GH will wriggle free. ;)
Originally posted by Yamo
Until I picked-up the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer last year, I had no idea what an awesome setting Greyhawk was. Thanks to the LGG, I was able to start learning about this great setting and I've since gone back and bought other Greyhawk products, including the original box set. Truly, I discovered, the original "official" D&D world is still the best.
I have to agree with Yamo that I originally felt that Greyhawk wasn't getting it's fair share. My first experience with Greyhawk was about 5 or 6 years ago. I was playing with a DM who has been into Greyhawk for over 20 years. His knowledge of Greyhawk and the gaming industry in general is massive. After playing his campaign for awhile I realized what my own homebrewed world and game was missing. The details! So I decided to check out the LGG and found what my game had been missing. I asked for some advice from him and started a Greyhawk campaign myself and quit my homebrewed stuff. Now my game has lasted over 2 years and that in itself is a major accomplishment since my friends usually got bored, guess that doesnt say much for DM-ing skills or my homebrewed world. Anyway, I have picked up some of the older Greyhawk material and am slowly using that to add more depth to my game. Greyhawk was the one thing missing from my gaming and even though not a lot of new things are published for it I am not discouraged from continuing to use it as my gameworld. Between Dungeon, Dragon and Canonfire and numerous other fan-sites and the RPGA sites I can find what i need. But that doesnt mean I wouldn't mind an updated sourcebook or books coming out or novels or anything. I guess what I am saying is that i can live without a book if I have too but why do I have too? Long live Greyhawk!
Then again, Erik Mona is proving me wrong in Dungeon Mag and I thank him for it :D
But this forum is not a wishing well. And nobody from WOtc or Hasbro care about what we write here, unless we speak about sex or religion. In fact this kind of thread just make suffer people who like Greyhawk.
In one hand, I can understand you, but in the other hand, I would like the people posting here to unite and produce effective and useful things.
I don't want to promote the project we are currently leading ( Mortepierre, Scotti Garbidis , Joe and I), wich is the writing of an original and free scenario for Greyhawk, but THIS is the kind of thing that can make things changing. If all the people here took time to write modules, extensions, map for greyhawk, and let them downloable on internet by Greyhawk players, it could have a real impact.
First, players won't feel alone, they will know they will have new stuff regulary available, secondly this dynamic may encourage new players to discover Greyhawk through free extensions, thrid the amount of responses may incline third parties or Wotc to publish new books.
When you don't find what you are looking for, don't cry and complain, MAKE IT.
Sorry if you may find me agressive, i have the same feeling than most of you about Greyhawk treatment, but i cannot accept to sit down and wait for something falling from the sky.
I love the fact that Greyhawk is an untouched world, it evolves at my bidding, not the whim of some corporate nobody looking for additional revenue. I don't need to spend my precious weekly game hours debating what is and is not canon with my players. In addition, I have enough trouble keeping up with the core and fringe core (BoVD, BoED, etc.) books that WotC publishes, I don't need to be dumping precious dollars on campaign sourcebooks. Greyhawk may (and possibly already has) pass into obscurity, but as has been proven in the past, it will never die.
Greyhawk came back, though, in the Greyhawk 98 books and we eventually got the Gaz. I'm certain that one day there will Greyhawk books again.
Until then, things don't seem so bad. Dungeon have published lots of incredible stuff, with more to come, and there are lots of great online resources. For now, I plan on enjoying what I've got.
Originally posted by Grugach
It is frustrating that there are no new books for Greyhawk. However, Greyhawk has been cancelled before and things have looked a lot bleaker. When TSR scrapped Greyhawk after the From the Ashes era - I think Border Watch was the last thing published - it really looked like the end of the line for the setting. I remember the dark days of hoping for even a mention of Greyhawk in the generic AD&D books or an article in Dragon Mag.
Greyhawk came back, though, in the Greyhawk 98 books and we eventually got the Gaz. I'm certain that one day there will Greyhawk books again.
Until then, things don't seem so bad. Dungeon have published lots of incredible stuff, with more to come, and there are lots of great online resources. For now, I plan on enjoying what I've got.
Good points, Grugach. In our impatience, we sometimes forget the big picture. I agree that Greyhawk will live and jump again; however, it might take a while and, even then, it may not be the kind of thing we want. Look no further than the polarizing effect Living Campaign has had on the Greyhawk faithful. Not much grey there.
Originally posted by Yamo
Now that the LGG is (apparently) out-of-print forever, where are the next generation of Greyhawk gamers supposed to come from?
The same place they came from all those years that Greyhawk was OOP during the 90s. We run games, they join in. We publish stuff on the net, they read it. We discuss GH on forums and lists, they join the discussion.
Greyhawk is living proof that a campaign setting doesn't need published product to survive, and that simple fan support can bring it back from the dead.
If they put out a really good Greyhawk book, I'd consider buying it.
If they dump some garbage on the shelf merely to milk the loyalty of GH fans, I'll pass.
There's enough loyal fans to keep the setting alive, lack of printed product for a while isn't that big a deal.
Whether you like the LGG or not, it certainly is convenient to have one place to find information like that compiled together. It's sad to hear it will disappear from the shelves once it finally all sells considering there's an active, national campaign playing it.
Sure, it's not the wealth of info provided in the Gazetteer but it's a start.
Eh, and if they need info on a specific subject, they'll drop on this board anyway :D
It need'nt be every month, but at least something of worth at least once a year...
Is that so much to ask? I mean, I buy most of their $$$ books.
Just a loyal customer's opinion!!
Originally posted by Amaron Blackthorn
the individuals can make a difference in the world, unlike many of the other fantasy settings.
The funny thing is, that the new Eberron setting is billing itself as the setting where "heroes can make a difference" by limiting the levels of npc's in the setting.
Sorry if this crosses threads with the Grand Theft Greyhawk.
Halber
Originally posted by Bugscuttle
BY God! I insist WoC bring back at least something for Greyhawk!
It need'nt be every month, but at least something of worth at least once a year...
Is that so much to ask? I mean, I buy most of their $$$ books.
Just a loyal customer's opinion!!
But, see, the heart of the problem is that they think they're doing it already. Take the Complete Divine for instance. There are many references inside to gods specific to the GH setting.
Of course, references aren't good enough but I am willing to bet that in WotC mind, that's "plenty of GH material"
So even though it doesn't explicitly say "Greyhawk", the products they're coming out with now are tailored to that world.
At least that's alwayz been my impression.
peace,
MSD
Correct me if I'm wrong
You're wrong, move along...
Originally posted by Mortepierre
But, see, the heart of the problem is that they think they're doing it already. Take the Complete Divine for instance. There are many references inside to gods specific to the GH setting.
Of course, references aren't good enough but I am willing to bet that in WotC mind, that's "plenty of GH material"
So very sad.So very true.
Originally posted by The MadStepDad
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't standard D&D equivelant to Greyhawk? I mean, all the "player characters" and NPCs included in the text are assumed to come from Oerth, right?
So even though it doesn't explicitly say "Greyhawk", the products they're coming out with now are tailored to that world.
That's what's meant when folks refer to GH as the "core setting" for D&D 3e. All the "proper nouns" in the otherwise settingless D&D products are drawn from GH.
The problem is, the people designing those products have little knowledge of or love for the setting, and there isn't a lot of depth or even accuracy compared to Greyhawk canon.
The idea of having a core setting was that you could simply buy the (thin) D&D Gazetteer and the core books and have a bare bones campaign world. A sort of compromise for those who don't want an overly detailed world like FR, DL or LGG GH, but don't want to do an entirely homebrew campaign.
So there's bits and pieces of greyhawk ideas in the core books, but don't expect a whole lot, and don't expect strict adherance to canon.
You're wrong, move along...
:heehee
Back to the subject at hand, I as well think that they should release more material for the Greyhawk campaign setting. However with Eberron(Yes, I bought the Eberron Campaign Setting and the new adventure[s].) out now I really don't think they are even giving Greyhawk a second thought.
~~~
I do believe some stuff for Castle Zagyg and the City of Yggsburgh are on the horizon...so there will be some Greyhawk material...conveniently not called Greyhawk cause the idiots at WotC wont release the rights back to the person that created the setting. Sad when Blackmoor has a campaign book by a 3rd Party Publisher....but not Greyhawk.
My only suggestion would be to start a petition...not that it would do any good...but it might.
Whoa! You must be one powerful necromancer to revive a thread this old ;)
He is a more powerful necromancer than you might imagine.
When the story is told of the revival of the World of Greyhawk in the late 90s and such is not bowdlerized by those seeking to enshrine their role, then or now, or their preferred view of events, it might be noted that what helped attract the attention of TSR as a corporate entity to then dead Greyhawk and its longsuffering fans was a letter writing campaign that so clogged the TSR mailroom that TSR employees came online to ask that the campaign please stop. I led that campaign.
It might be further noted that, when some of these TSR employees challenged the nascent effort to revive Greyhawk as nothing more than nostalgia or misplaced devotion to a setting in no meaningful way dissimilar to any other setting, they were answered with but one organized response - The Grey in the Hawk. I authored that piece.
My bone fides established for those perhaps unfamiliar with my work prior to the advent of D&D Third Edition, I would speak to the topic at hand, being a new Greyhawk core book.
Certainly, I would be pleased to see such a thing come to pass, and more. And it shall. By my hand, if no other. The situation is, however, neither cut nor dried.
To effectively impact a WotC owned by Hasbro is vastly different than impacting the old TSR. It is in every way a more difficult task. A premium is placed on effective planning that considers both the strategic and tactical reality of the gaming industry and the Greyhawk setting. To put it simply, it is not enough to hit them where it hurts; they must be hit when it will hurt. Now is not the time.
When you strike with a sword, you should not flail about you as if cutting wheat with a scythe. You should focus your strokes. As noted in the Go Rin No Sho, hit in one timing. If you prefer a different, perhaps better, model, Tsuru no Sugomori, confine the cranes to their nest. Presently, neither is possible. The situation is distracted. Absent an overwhelming change in circumstances, which I will discuss shortly, the present situation will only slowly resolve to a point where it will be possible to act effectively. Every combat or contest has its own rhythm which you should accommodate and only rarely try to force.
I will intentionally not discuss the particulars of the strategic or tactical situation further as it is not to my present advantage to do so. If you will take tally of all of the players in the Greyhawk universe today and understand what they do, that effect and what they may shortly do, you will discover much. If you attempt this, you must not underestimate anyone in your accounting. As is discovered, you never know whose necromancies may prove surprising to you.
I advise waiting until the Greyhawk situation becomes clearer, which will require patience, before pursuing a new incarnation of Greyhawk. That is unless overwhelming change comes to pass.
It has been noted that WotC will not license or sell the Greyhawk property. This is not entirely true. There have been three parties, each of whom has a prior relationship with WotC and/or TSR, which have approached WotC looking into the possibility of licensing or purchasing rights to Greyhawk (this is to say nothing of a purchase of D&D from Hasbro, another topic entirely). To date, the difficulty, short of a complete sale, has been terms that would accommodate both the purchaser and WotC’s present use of the Greyhawk property. The acquisition of Greyhawk is not undertaken by persons devoid of a business sense or so obsessed with Greyhawk as to override their business sense. While the discussions have not produced a license or sale, it would overstate matters to say that they are dead. The incestuous nature of the gaming industry allows matters to simply rest. Should matters further develop along these or any other line (Yes. I am aware of you.), the Greyhawk situation will have notably changed.
Prudence suggests that one not count on the arrival of a white, or any other color, knight. It is to this end that I address you. You must husband your resources. Bank your fire. Wait for the moment of weakness. When the time comes, I will be in the first rank, as before.
I have been quiet because there has been no need for me and I finally realized that. It is entirely possible to become overtaken with a sense of yourself out of all proportion to reality. Not a happy thing, certainly, but a lesson learned better late than never.
I choose this moment to rise because we are about to enter a time of ferment that will, I believe, lead us to matters which will see a new chapter in the history of Greyhawk written. I would my seigneurs to me.
To those haughty, know the time grows short. No longer is the field vacant. The pennons you see cresting the horizon are mine. See to your allegiances. As I will surely see to mine. You will find me not yet so much as I was, yet more so for all that. “Com par mi so. The hall is rented. The orchestra engaged. Its time to see if you can dance.”
We shall speak again.
I am [email]NightScreed@aol.com[/email]
Mes bons amis en France. Je me rappelle bien nos conversations au sujet de Zeif et d'Ekbir. Je ne vous vois plus. Veuillez me dire que vous allez bien. Les relations entre nos deux comtés ne devraient pas venir entre Greyhawkers. Nous devrions être des amis. Svp pardon mon Français. Ce n'est pas bon.
If you're going to slyly hint around about obtaining a GH license, you better pony up some documentation, and fast, unless you want to get lumped right in with another GH blowhard, who shall remain nameless, who has made that claim on ocassion.
Thank you for summarily ignoring/dismissing every other greyhawk fan, community and project before or after your "hiatus".
If you're going to slyly hint around about obtaining a GH license, you better pony up some documentation, and fast, unless you want to get lumped right in with another GH blowhard, who shall remain nameless, who has made that claim on ocassion.
You must not have read very closely or I write too well for you. Let me be clear.
As my post clearly indicates to a reading at a highschool level, I played _a_ role. No one is dismissed or ignored. I spoke to my role not all of Greyhawk's history. In fact, there were many who contributed and who continue to do so or who have done so since I last trod these boards. Each and every one have my thanks, if not yet my love. If you wish to be offended, far be it from me to say thee nay. Just don't play the plowboy hero of the masses with me. It ill suits.
To be equally clear, I am _not_ hinting that I may obtain a Greyhawk license. I will _not_ obtain any such license and I have _never_ attempted such. As I indicated, and please don't tell me I'm going to have to read every one of my posts to you like a bedtime story to a truculent child, those who have looked into a license have been persons with a prior relationship with WotC or TSR; I have _never_ had such a relationship (unless you count adversary, which does not count).
So, summing up, for those keeping score at home: (1) I take credit only for the role I played and gratefully acknowledge the equal or greater roles many others played; and (2) I am not going to be getting a Greyhawk license or be buying Greyhawk or be buying D&D or be buying Hasbro or be elected President or be crowned King of Prussia or, or, or, or
Chatty, my lad, if you want to pick a fight, you'll have to do better than this. And I really don't want to fight. Give me some style, some wit, some grace. Then. Maybe. I have no interest, never had, in standing in the rain and hollering "Stella!" at the top of my lungs. You and your "blowhard" may have it, Sirrah.
I led that campaign.
they were answered with but one organized response - The Grey in the Hawk. I authored that piece.
No longer is the field vacant. The pennons you see cresting the horizon are mine. See to your allegiances.
As my post clearly indicates to a reading at a highschool level, I played _a_ role. No one is dismissed or ignored.
The field is no longer empty? No, you didn't ignore anyone...
To put it bluntly, for most of the roleplaying public, a world without a core book in print is either a DEAD WORLD or a NONEXISTANT WORLD. Period.
What are we going to do? If WotC won't do what it takes to bring in new players, can't they at least licence Greyhawk to someone who will? Greyhawk needs to be more than a nostalgia trip or an insular RPGA-only affair. What percentage of gamers in even in the RPGA? Less than 1%, I'm sure.
This situation is UNJUST and INTOLERABLE.
*laughing like Arnolid Schwarzenegger in The Last Action Hero*
hohoho
Fear no more, my friend, for the Book of Kul'gobsula is on the way!
It's just my unofficial fan book that will available online in november, but if you want new stuff, just look at the preview here on this board.
It may not be exactly what you are searching, but maybe you'll like it.
