Mephboy
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
Interesting. Personally, I like Dark Sun's history.
The fact that Athas was once a paradise planet and became the world as we know it now, just because of a *mistake* is quite unique and interesting. (compare to natural disaster or world wars etc.)Look at all the other worlds out there. Good is always above evil. Well not in this case. How many worlds do you know, where a single race is responsible for the many races populating Athas of today?? And everything that makes history of Athas is most interesting. And although we, as DS fans would of killed to have more info on the unfinished project TSR may have hadd at the time. The mystery of the unknown makes the setting even more appealing. (unlike world like Forgoten realms or dragonlance, where everything is set, Darksun game masters has more freedom on what they want to achive, expand.......
That's my 2 cents.
Mephboy
Mephboy
Originally posted by mephboy
It's not really the lacks of history that I don't like. I find the whole Dark Lens thing a Deus Ex Machina of sorts. I mean they don't really have to gave any reason or ryhme...it's the dark lens. How did the halklings change into sentient beings? Dark Lens. How did the Champions become SK? Dark Lens. Why is the world so crappy? Dark Lens. Let's take the oceans. Persumably, the sea of silt used to be a vast ocean....but due to the cleansing war/change of sun it became silt? How? Why? What changed it? Deflining magic wouldn't turn it to silt. It would juts be a dead sea. So why the silt? Obviously it's not so hot that water can't be free standing, such as Lake Pit, the island lake (can't rmemeber the name), any and all oasis, not to mention the last sea. So why the silt. Because it was a cool idea and the writers like it. But that doesn't give me a good reason why it is there. Following? So it's issues like those that i am having a problem with.
There is no official answer, or even theory, as to why the ocean and no other body of water slowly turned to silt during the Cleansing Wars. Even the novels do not thread in that path.
Reading the Timeline and novels, its never said who created the Lens or where its from. There is no indication that the halflings had access to it during their reign, nor is there an indication that Rajaat found the Lens in the Tower when he took residence there.
The halflings of old used lifeshaping, augmented by the lifeshaping powers of the Tower, to change themselves into numerous sentient species, not the Lens.
No one is sure if the Crystal of Steeples, the black water pools and the Lens were an integral part of the Blue Age's Tower, or if they were added later by Rajaat when he restructured the Tower with his sorcery to better serve his needs.
Lastly, I for that matter think the Lens is the coolest artifact ever devised by T$R, partly due to its mysterious nature.
* I made a lot of statements in there that as far as I know are true. If anyone can prove to me they are not true, or suggest that later unpublish material changes what I said, please tell me so.
I would allow for crafty or ingeneous people to be able to collect morning dew, but I doubt that it would be frequent enough or prominent enough to support or sustain anything more than a very small handful of people. Maintenance of the dew collectors would also be a serious issue. It would probably take a lot more collectors in a larger area to collect anything more than a miniscule amount of water in the Tablelands than it would in an Earthly desert. Anyhow, use your own judgement on what you feel is appropriate for the themes in your game. Some may feel that the dew collecting idea is a bit too Frank Herbert for them and not allow it.
Reading the Timeline and novels, its never said who created the Lens or where its from. There is no indication that the halflings had access to it during their reign, nor is there an indication that Rajaat found the Lens in the Tower when he took residence there.
Did the Rhulisti not create the pristine tower and the dark lens to defned against the Brown Tide? I swear that what it states in the revised Wanderers Chonciles...
I would allow for crafty or ingeneous people to be able to collect morning dew, but I doubt that it would be frequent enough or prominent enough to support or sustain anything more than a very small handful of people. Maintenance of the dew collectors would also be a serious issue.
It just seems like it would get to the point where there are moisture farms to collect such dew. Either star wars style or even Dune fremen style. People find means, that how they work.
edited to add:
Several web page sites about the sahara, list this:
Climate
Hot, dry desert; rain is rare; cold offshore air currents produce fog and heavy dew
Mephboy
It just seems like it would get to the point where there are moisture farms to collect such dew. Either star wars style or even Dune fremen style. People find means, that how they work.
True, one could try and build a moisture farm, but it would be made of crude materials, and be easily stomped by a nightmare beast, rampager, tribe of gith, wandering dune trapper, etc. People find means, and Athas crushes them for it.
Hot, dry desert; rain is rare; cold offshore air currents produce fog and heavy dew
I'm sorry, I'm not poking fun at you, but this made me laugh. Hard. Cold offshore currents, eh? Unfortunately, Athas doesn't have cold offshore ocean currents. The offshore currents come from the Silt Sea (assuming that's the direction of prevailing winds), and they'd hardly be cold one's at that. When your offshore currents are hot and likely even drier (since the Silt Sea would suck up any semblance of moisture from the air, giving off that moisture when enough collected to form a mudflat), you don't really have the right conditions for a whole lot of dew. Fog would probably be an unheard of sight outside of Saragar.
Originally posted by mephboy
Did the Rhulisti not create the pristine tower and the dark lens to defned against the Brown Tide? I swear that what it states in the revised Wanderers Chonciles...
The first mention of the Lens in the Wanderer's Chronicles is in the historical section named "Cleansing Wars".
Also, using enough energy to turn a star from blue class to yellow class would be the same energy has a supernova. Such energy would have killed the brown tide and vaporized Athas.
Also, the large multiple moons will eventaully lose their orbit and one will either get ejected, or crash into Athas or the other moon, casing surface meltdown on Athas.
Personally, I think Dark Sun history is a lie created by the sorcerer kings. The SK have a monopoly on history since they own the means to pass it down, writing. Sure you could use magical means and ask a spirit of some sort. Then again, just how good is the memory of a spirit and would they ever lie? Just for fun.
If we wanted to get technical
Heh, if we really got technical, there'd be no Athas at all. A blue sun? That pretty much puts the breaks on realism right there.
Adequate energy output, not likely.
Survivable radiation spectrum, doubtful.
Useful light sprectrum for green-photosynthesis, I don't think so.
The Sea of Silt to me personally was an odd one to explain, but I just simplify my life by saying, Evil defilers did it. That seems to make me feel better.
I'm sorry, I'm not poking fun at you, but this made me laugh. Hard. Cold offshore currents, eh?
yes, I understand there is no offshore ocean currents on Athas. I was rebuttaling (sp?) your comment about real world desert and "if conditions are right, there might be light dew (in the sahara)." That's all that comment was about. there is more than light dew in the Sahara.
Mephboy
Personally, I think Dark Sun history is a lie created by the sorcerer kings. The SK have a monopoly on history since they own the means to pass it down, writing. Sure you could use magical means and ask a spirit of some sort. Then again, just how good is the memory of a spirit and would they ever lie? Just for fun.
YES! That's exactly what I think. But my problem has been trying to come up with the "real" history. The original point of the post was just that...I wanted to see if anyone had any alternate hisotry ideas out there. The reason for the ecology stuff is that I am trying to get a grasp on whther I think ALL of athas is like the tablelands overall, or is there drastic changes over the rest of the planet. I mean, the scale on the maps is tiny compared to many other D&D maps. So the whole revised known world maps consist of something like 3000 square miles. That's nothing! All of the known world of athas seems like it could be a small continent. So are the SK just trapped in this area but rhuilisti who rule the rest of the world? Is this their punsihment? Could this be in effect a version of australia? Prisoners sent to a desolate surrounding and left here? I figured I couldn't have been the only one to who thought of these things, but I can't find any info like that out there. So I thoguht I would ask.
As a point, I am explaining the silt as a direct result of the brown tide, which was never fully defeated. And with the change of the sun again form yellow to red, the tide was awakened. That would explain ( to me) why the last sea is untouched by it (the rhulisti did not have psionics)...so the mind lords had the power to protect from it.
Mephboy
Originally posted by mephboy
(the rhulisti did not have psionics
Mephboy [/b]
This is exacly why the Rhulisti couldn't have been the creators of the dark Lens. I mean basically, the DL is a powerfull PSIONIC artifact that has many usage(obviously) but always with psionic emanations(I know it's not the right word but you guys are intelligent, you'll guess it
) and like you said so planely: Rhulisti didn't possess psionic powers . (it is even rumored that the war between the Githyanki and the Guizerai may be responsible for psionic on Athas(through the use of psychic Bombs or something similar anyway) So in the Blue Age, psionic was non existant.I think the Dark Lens was created by Rajaat but with the help of the Last Rhulisti who were settled in the pristine tower. (so the DL would be a life-shaped artifact imbued with Rajaat's knowledge/powers/mostly psionic.)
In the novel where Rajaat was free he took the DL and was never bothered by the power of the artifact if I recal and then he killed at least ome SK with it.(physically)
The following is from my own imagination but since your asking for other's history of Athas, you asked for it.
The fact that the Sea of Silt is now.... a sea of silt is because(in my campaing) on Athas all fluids were/is(what is left of it) Mindë's physical form. ---To resume this from an other thread I wrote, Mindë is the DNA of the planet, the scource of all life possible on Athas: the very building blocks the Rhulisti were able to manipulate to create life-shaping. So when the SK defiled the land to power their spells, they could defile water also killing Mindë block by block(of course water itself isnt Mindë. Its physical form is found in it .(compare it to your blood: it is not the blood itself that gives you life but the cells that can vehiculate into it)
Ho well enough babling about my theory of Mindë (just love to pup it up from time to time
)Anyway that's how I see the result which caused the sea to become silt.
In the novel where Rajaat was free he took the DL and was never bothered by the power of the artifact if I recal and then he killed at least ome SK with it.(physically)
Right, Rajaat killed Tec by bashing him with the Dark Lens on the head. What a bully.
The fact that the Sea of Silt is now.... a sea of silt is because(in my campaing) on Athas all fluids were/is(what is left of it) Mindë's physical form. ---To resume this from an other thread I wrote, Mindë is the DNA of the planet, the scource of all life possible on Athas: the very building blocks the Rhulisti were able to manipulate to create life-shaping. So when the SK defiled the land to power their spells, they could defile water also killing Mindë block by block(of course water itself isnt Mindë. Its physical form is found in it .(compare it to your blood: it is not the blood itself that gives you life but the cells that can vehiculate into it)
See, that's the kind of stuff I'm looking for!!! Cool idea. Thanks!
Mephboy
In this case, we'd have to assume that at least some of the history is true and that at least some of it is false. As a GM, it's up to you as to what to toss and what to keep. I basically stayed relatively true to the timeline, but twisted it to make Athas largely my own.
So you like the idea of the Brown Tide and think it's still around? So do I. I made it the Black. Basically, it couldn't be destroyed, so the Rhulisti tossed it into the Gray with the use of a network of towers. The center (power?) tower was the Pristine Tower. So the Tide is still out there and occasionally seeps back in.
Water still exists, but is mostly underground in vast caves. "Venting," basically evaporation through any hole available, allows for there to be moisture in the air.
How did Athas get the way it is? Was it a "Dark Lens" changing the sun? Was it Rajaat? Was it Borys the Dragon draining all the forests to dust? Was it something else? These are questions you will have to answer.
Mephboy
Especially because if the water "dried up" it went into the atmosphere and has to be around somewhere being that the atmosphere makes a closed enviornment.
Not neccessarily. Its more likely that the cold trap in the upper atmosphere was also affected by the planet's environmental changes. With higher temps comes a much less resilient cold trap. As the water dries up, UV radiation breaks up the H2O. The free hydrogen easily photodissaciates from the weakened cold trap (it would likely do so anyhow with the extra radiation). Less hydrogen equals less water. Less water equals a less effective cold trap which in turn causes other light elements to bleed out into space until Athas has little to no atmosphere left. Add that to the list of doomsday scenarios for our lovely little paradise.
Less water equals a less effective cold trap which in turn causes other light elements to bleed out into space until Athas has little to no atmosphere left. Add that to the list of doomsday scenarios for our lovely little paradise.
Wow, so yet another reason athas is just screwed eh?
Is there any positive to this world? Other than it's just so darn fun to play.Mephboy
Honestly, I tend to diverge a bit from Mach on this one. The goal in my games is always: "Things are about as bleak as they can get, but there is a glimmer of hope." If the entire world is going to die no matter what you do, what's the point? That introduces a whole shade of existentialism that my players, for one, do not need. "No reason to be good or do good? HAHHAHAH! *Stabs nearest bar patron*"
Originally posted by mephboy
Wow, so yet another reason athas is just screwed eh?
Mephboy
Well, I usually work off the idea that Athas has degraded significantly farther than other worlds. It's still sliding, and needs some grand, impressive change to raise it out of it's inveitable death. Basically, to make Athas become revitalized, something like a god needs to be born, Athas needs to no longer be a closed system, or something. With it being effectively sealed off from pretty much anything else, that has caused a massive compounding of the effects of entropy (known in reality as the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics) to degrade it completely. They need to make that reach to an outside realm, and get some sort of new influx, or Athas will die. Unfortunately, that's more of a 50/50 chance - since there's some real bad things that could come in, and hasten the job.
Now - does that mean that the world's destruction and death is a sure thing? Not necessarily - which is where the possibilities for player-character groups applies - if they can find a way to restore Athas, gread. Of course, I also leave it open for players to really not care about such grand things - since the destruction of the world will most likely happen long after they die. And there is even room for people who would rather hasten the world's destruction by whatever means they have available to them. But - if the world is left in the condition it is right now, and nothing is done to fix this, then - it's simply doomed. All kinds of different ways which the world will come to an end. And the list keeps growing.
That introduces a whole shade of existentialism that my players, for one, do not need. "No reason to be good or do good? HAHHAHAH! *Stabs nearest bar patron*"
I think I've gotten lucky not to have had to deal with too many players like that. Most of my core group of players understand that the world isn't ending the day after tomorrow. They also know that the world is a tough enough place to live in and don't want to go out of their way to make it even worse on themselves. Its hard at times to juggle the idea of impermanence (which itself doesn't normally slide too smoothly into Western thinking) and still keep a basic sense of cause and effect/reprecusions of one's actions. Thankfully, I've only really had a single player to go said extremes. After having his hands painfully removed for being caught pilfering a bit too much a bit too often, he learned the reprecusion aspect quite well (with his new character anyhow).
Most of my thinking and fatalistic theme is from the original box set, in a talk from the Wanderer where he says something to the effect: Athas is dying. The proof is fairly plain to see. There were once nine city-states. Now two are in ruins. If Athas was even moderately stable, wouldn't there eventually be cities that would crop up to take their place? What happens when another city falls. Then another. (not a direct quote, but I'm pretty sure I got the gist of it).