Which direction does rain fall in Sigil?

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

prophet_of_chaos

Aug 04, 2004 9:24:44
Think about it. If Sigil is really on the inside of the ring, rain should fall left to right. Right?
#2

alicia_darkwing

Aug 04, 2004 11:19:44
Depends on what your operating physical assumption is. In other words, are things 'held down' in Sigil through an actual rim-ward gravitational force, or is it a centrifugal force generated from spin?

Personally, I don't recall any mention of Sigil spinning, but could be wrong. Other comment?

If objects in Sigil are indeed 'held down' through a spin-generated centrifugal force, then I believe you would be correct: rain would fall from left to right. If, however, you assume a rim-ward, reverse-gravitational effect (from the center to the inside of the ring), then rain would appear to fall 'straight down', from the point of view of someone standing in the street.
#3

sildatorak

Aug 04, 2004 17:19:16
Bad Alicia! Trying to bring real world physics in where it doesn't belong :nono:

Sigil doesn't spin as far as anyone can tell, and even if it does, it doesn't follow the rules of centripetal force (otherwise the amount of force things would feel would vary depending on how high they are from street level). There is a constant gravitational force pointing toward the outside of the ring, and if you were to fly directly up you would eventually hit the central point of the ring and switch directions suddenly.

Hmm...I'm getting more and more bothered by the picture of Sigil in the Planar Handbook as I think about it. The dang thing wraps way too far around, and is screwing with some of what has classically been described as possible.
#4

Shemeska_the_Marauder

Aug 04, 2004 19:04:39
The picture in the PlHB does indeed wrap around too much. Looking up you should always see a corresponding spot on the opposite side of the ring, not a portion on the other curve of the same side that you're on.

Gravity is towards the ring itself, and switches over roughly halfway across the ring if you fly from one side to the other. Rain falls subjectively -down- towards the local gravity.
#5

alicia_darkwing

Aug 04, 2004 22:04:41
Hmm...I think I like being called bad!

Just because I can't resist playing Demon's Advocate (since I'm Tannar'ri. No devil!) What if one were to propose making Sigil centrifugal instead of gravitational? Might have some interesting impact on the architecture. It would take the strain off building very tall towers. Their superstructures would effectively 'float' in low-g altitudes.
#6

raymond_luxury_yacht

Aug 04, 2004 22:17:17
Originally posted by Alicia Darkwing
Hmm...I think I like being called bad!

Just because I can't resist playing Demon's Advocate (since I'm Tannar'ri. No devil!) What if one were to propose making Sigil centrifugal instead of gravitational? Might have some interesting impact on the architecture. It would take the strain off building very tall towers. Their superstructures would effectively 'float' in low-g altitudes.

The inhabitants would also be torn to shreds by the centrifugal force.
#7

zombiegleemax

Aug 05, 2004 2:43:13
Not really. Indeed, "centrifugal force" (there's no such thing as centrifugal force, folk, it's just an illusion disguising inertia) is the simplest way of generating artificial gravity (the only other known is constant acceleration, which becomes harder and harder if you stay in a linear trajectory).

That's why you have all these ring-shaped space stations in sci-fi stuff.

The problem is when Sigil is not described a ring, but as a quasi-torus. "Centrifugal force" would be enough to keep people on their foot when they're on the outmost section of the torus, but the "sides" would be like walls.
#8

ripvanwormer

Aug 05, 2004 16:57:38
Originally posted by Shemeska the Marauder
The picture in the PlHB does indeed wrap around too much. Looking up you should always see a corresponding spot on the opposite side of the ring, not a portion on the other curve of the same side that you're on.

Gravity is towards the ring itself, and switches over roughly halfway across the ring if you fly from one side to the other. Rain falls subjectively -down- towards the local gravity.

Rain comes from portals in the clouds (to the planes of Water, Lightning, or Steam, usually; ooze portals in the clouds would be nasty). It falls in all directions but will eventually hit the "ground" somewhere, although the winds might make raindrops hit at an angle.

"Left" and "right" are subjective. Outlands weather doesn't effect Sigil (which apparantly exists in a place so close to the Spire that all reality breaks down, leaving only nothingness), so there's no chance of a storm front from Tir fo Thiunn raining on the city sideways.

The diagram in the Planar Handbook may be too close to a full torus, if only because it would be hard to see the "sky" (which is just nothingness filled with clouds and smog) from some parts of the city.

There's always been something of a contradiction between the verbal discriptions of Sigil - which imply that the opposite side of the ring is always directly above you - and the few illustrations of its curvature (mostly in the first boxed set and in the Torment game), which show that this is only going to be true if you're in the city's center. From one of Sigil's edges the opposite side of the ring is going to be low on the horizon, at the very least. Making it curve even more, as it does in the Planar Handbook, actually helps compensate for this, since you're able to see the city above you no matter where you are, even if it's much closer than you'd expect.

Sildatorak has a point about assumptions, though. Maybe Sigil has some strange distortion so that even though it curves both latitudinally and longitudinally the opposite side of the ring is somehow directly above you anyway, even at the edges. It's no weirder than having something infinitely far away (as the top of the Spire is), be visible from the Outlands.
#9

voldenuit

Aug 07, 2004 0:41:54
Excerpt from a Guvner Investigative Report:

After much careful research and deliberation, it would seem that there is a multiversal rule regarding the velocity vectors of raindrops in relation to sentient creatures. The maxim, expressed by Primes, is presented as follows:

"It rains on the just and unjust alike"

Experimental efforts to establish the veracity of this rule within the spatial bounds of Sigil were conducted with the cooperation of the Harmonium and the Mercykillers, in an effort to move the population of Sigil into three distinct sections during a period of precipitation, such that there were 3 separate areas within the ring of the city that had a preponderance of Good, Evil, and Neutral bloods.

Representatives of the Fraternity of Order were stationed with each group (taking care to protect themselves from the prisoners being escorted out of the Prison by the Mercykillers for the purposes of this experiment) with instructions to note and measure the velocity, direction and distribution of rain droplents with respect to the subjects.

The experiment, however, was interrupted by the actions of Xaositect and Anarchist agitators, resulting in a completely unexpected shower of frogs and custard pies.

While no meaningful data was obtained on the velocity vectors of rain droplets in Sigil that day, a surprising amount of information was collated on the attractive value of Harmonium and Governer agents with respects to custard pies in ballistic trajectories. The results of this study are presented in Appendix 1A: Strange Attratocrs and the Interrelationships between Governers and Harmonium Officers and the Trajectories of Dairy Comestibles and Related Phenomena....



Editor's Note: Further attempts by the Guvners to study the patterns of rainfall in Sigil wre interrupted by the Faction War, and no current experiments are scheduled in the immediate future.
#10

sildatorak

Aug 07, 2004 18:16:48
Originally posted by ripvanwormer
Sildatorak has a point about assumptions, though. Maybe Sigil has some strange distortion so that even though it curves both latitudinally and longitudinally the opposite side of the ring is somehow directly above you anyway, even at the edges.

You don't have to distort it, actually. If the ring of Sigil is a regularly shaped cross-section of a sphere and gravity is toward the outside of the ring, a line that goes straight "up" will always pass through the center of the sphere and hit a point on the other side. The longwise band that the far side cuts through the sky may be slightly off-center, but it will always have at least one point directly above you.
#11

ripvanwormer

Aug 10, 2004 21:17:35
Originally posted by Sildatorak
You don't have to distort it, actually. If the ring of Sigil is a regularly shaped cross-section of a sphere and gravity is toward the outside of the ring, a line that goes straight "up" will always pass through the center of the sphere and hit a point on the other side. The longwise band that the far side cuts through the sky may be slightly off-center, but it will always have at least one point directly above you.

Hm. That's a good point. I was assuming that Sigil curved more sharply than a sphere would (the diagrams in the Planescape boxed set and the Planar Handbook both suggest this), but this isn't necessarily so.