Would the other SK's actually make the coordinated effort to move against and destroy him? It's always easier to defend than attack, so unless they were willing to team up, like several did against Dregoth originally, there would be a great deal of risk, and with the current political climate with the loss of so many SK's, I just can't see that kind of joint effort.
Or would they just accept him as another SK, potential enemy, not to be trusted, but not worth risking yourself to destroy.
I'm just wondering at the actual point of his ruse. To think that the other SK's would actively destroy him, you have to believe that they think an avangion is a bigger threat to them than another dragon, and I just don't buy that. There isn't exactly a "code of honor" among dragons. It isn't like they trust each other or work as allies.
:D
What does Oronis stand to lose if his secret of new Kurn / old Kurn and his avangion status are revealed?
Would the other SK's actually make the coordinated effort to move against and destroy him? It's always easier to defend than attack, so unless they were willing to team up, like several did against Dregoth originally, there would be a great deal of risk, and with the current political climate with the loss of so many SK's, I just can't see that kind of joint effort.
Or would they just accept him as another SK, potential enemy, not to be trusted, but not worth risking yourself to destroy.
I'm just wondering at the actual point of his ruse. To think that the other SK's would actively destroy him, you have to believe that they think an avangion is a bigger threat to them than another dragon, and I just don't buy that. There isn't exactly a "code of honor" among dragons. It isn't like they trust each other or work as allies.
The real question is what's the purpose of an Avangion's existance??
The answer is! To heal the world and to avenge the destruction done by the defilers orr at least, to prevent future defiling. That said, we all know the only way to do the last is to annihilate all defilers including the SKs(obviously)
So. Would the SK unite to destroy Oronis if it came to be known that he is secretely becoming a creature of pure good. The one creature other then Rajaat who, once he would reach its full metamorphosis, could become the worst ennemy any SKs would like to encounter.
I say yes all the way.
Even though he would be the last to know, imagine the paranoiac SK of Eldarich, who is situated not far from New Kurn, how he would react!
I say that unless there is a miracle in which the SKs and Oronis would dialog out a truce--wich would mean no more defiling what-so ever-- they would have to unite , seek, and destroy.( or atempt to do so)
---he is to much of a threat not to. Jihun
The real question is what's the purpose of an Avangion's existance??
The answer is! To heal the world and to avenge the destruction done by the defilers orr at least, to prevent future defiling. That said, we all know the only way to do the last is to annihilate all defilers including the SKs(obviously)
Does everyone believe this? If you accept that the purpose of an avangion is to do those things, then you must believe that the purpose of a dragon is to do those things, namely, defile and destroy. I don't think that's neccesarily the case.
A lawful good character isn't automatically all about saving the world, just like a chaotic evil character isn't always solely focued on destroying it. I think that each SK would ultimately envision themselves as the only SK, completing the dragon metamorphisis, removing their rivals, etc. I don't see why they would make a distinction between their dragon rivals and an avangion rival. They know that each would want to destroy them if given the chance.
Simarily, I don't know that Oronis would only be focused on destroying the sorcerer kings. I think his first focus is on creating a preserver focused and good alignened environment for his citizens, and that conflict with the other sorcerer kings would be a very far out long term goal.
Edit: Wanted to add something about advanced beings in general. I don't agree with the original alignment restrictions on which type of advanced being you can metamorphisize into. I think that it should be self selecting. A defiler would never chose to become an avangion because it would limit their defiling, just like a preserver would never chose to become a dragon because it would ruin their preserver status.
I don't think that because a character is an avangion or a dragon, they should automatically have particular motives. I think neutrality, political situation and role, and all kinds of other factors would influence the actions and position of an individual advanced being.
Oronis is actively acting upon that goal, and succeeding at it, albeit on a small scale. The other Champions seem to have given up on the old dream of reviving the past.
Originally Keltis was a ruthless monster, like all Champions. But he changed to being more open, tolerant of difference, just, and has stemmed his negative emotions as far as he could. But do understand that becoming an avangion does not make you the next best thing to a paladin. Oronis is still Keltis inside and can still slaughter and cull if need be. "Evil will always triumph because good does not help itself." (or something like that, can't remember the exact quote). Oronis will oppress his population in subtle ways if he feels it necessary to secure their future and security. He will discreetly eliminate dissident groups that break off to rejoin the Seven Cities, because they cannot be allowed to spread the tale of New Kurn.
I see Oronis as a strong believer of 'the end justifies the means'. He will choose his means more carefully than the SKs, but in his heart he will do anything to protect his people. Remember how evil and ruthless Hamanu was in RaFoaDK? Simply reverse the equation and make Oronis good and ruthless.
Oronis' current goal seems to be limited to creating a haven, if not a heaven, for himself and his people. He does not seem to have as of today an agenda of mass murder against defilers and SKs.
I see Oronis as a strong believer of 'the end justifies the means'. He will choose his means more carefully than the SKs, but in his heart he will do anything to protect his people. Remember how evil and ruthless Hamanu was in RaFoaDK? Simply reverse the equation and make Oronis good and ruthless.
Oronis' current goal seems to be limited to creating a haven, if not a heaven, for himself and his people. He does not seem to have as of today an agenda of mass murder against defilers and SKs.
I agree with you on that, Pennarin. I see Oronis a bit like Leto II in the God-Emperor of Dune by Frank Herbert. He is a tyrant (albeit with wisdom and the knowledge of everything past, present and future) to ensure peace and prosperity for his people (not to mention the survival of the race).
Do you think that if the other sorcerer kings found out that Ornois was an avangion and actively working to restore the natural environment, they would consider this a threat and move to destroy him? I would imagine that the sorcerer kings would actually prefer to live in a world with trees and oceans and the like, they just have no incentive to create it and have no concern about the damage their actions might do to it.
I also think that there is a political restoration aspect of his work, freedom of slaves, better living conditions, less oppressive government. More than the environmental side, this is the one that I think the other SK's might take issue with and work to destroy as it might incite uprisings in their own city-states. And that is why I think that he would do things to prevent the secret from getting out, even though that might involve disposal of relatively innocent threats.
I think the way I am going to take my campaign eventually is that his secret will come out, and it will create kind of a reverse Cuba / US relationship. Where the other City-States impose trade sanctions and other similar methods to seal off Kurn, and citizens who know of its existence do anything they can to sneak past border patrols and the like to get into the city and enjoy the "Kurnian Dream".
Do you think that if the other sorcerer kings found out that Ornois was an avangion and actively working to restore the natural environment, they would consider this a threat and move to destroy him? I would imagine that the sorcerer kings would actually prefer to live in a world with trees and oceans and the like, they just have no incentive to create it and have no concern about the damage their actions might do to it.
I feel the SKs would move to eliminate him. Athasian history reflects what the SKs do anytime someone shows any strength that may oppose their supremacy (i.e. Kalid-Ma, Dregoth, any Avagion, etc...).
I agree with almost everything you wrote Pennarin, it fits almost completely with my own thoughts. My one area of disagreement may be that I have misunderstood your first point. I interpreted you as saying Oronis would want a return to the Blue rather than the Green age? I don't really know that I believe that to be the case, I think he's after an environmental restoration, but not any kind of racial cleansing like Rajaat would have approved of.
No, that's not it. In RaFoaDK, we see Rajaat enforcing a vision of a restored Athas...into a new Blue Age. When reading the part in the Revised Setting about Oronis, you can see he wants also to return to the Blue Age. Green Age also. A mix of the two I'd say. As for the need for 'racial cleansing', like you say, is only necessary if you believe, like Rajaat did, that the world deserved to be returned to its true owners and caretakers, the halflings. Oronis has now become tolerant of difference: sharing this New Age with all the races is an admirable goal I'm sure he's trying hard to implement.
Do you think that if the other sorcerer kings found out that Ornois was an avangion and actively working to restore the natural environment, they would consider this a threat and move to destroy him? I would imagine that the sorcerer kings would actually prefer to live in a world with trees and oceans and the like, they just have no incentive to create it and have no concern about the damage their actions might do to it.
That bit is funky, like you say. All the SKs have this dream of restoration also, yet they've given up on it, probably from fully understanding the limitations of their own methods, which are destruction and defiling: they are only useful for restoration if you have someone like Rajaat to bring about the Blue Age in the end of it all. Since he's no longer there to do it...
Yet they should still be happy and relieved that an avangion exist, since he has the means to bring about a kind of restoration. I think that the problem in this case is every SK's own failing: they are selfish. They want the glory for themselves, and they want to do it their way. No room for an avangion.
I feel the SKs would move to eliminate him. Athasian history reflects what the SKs do anytime someone shows any strength that may oppose their supremacy (i.e. Kalid-Ma, Dregoth, any Avagion, etc...).
But why would a semi-early stage avangion be considered a greater threat to sorcerer king supremacy than any other advanced being? I don't see why oronis the avangion is more of a threat than oronis the dragon.
The only thing I can come up with, would be that they destroy what they don't understand, and since there hasn't ever been a full avangion, and even early stage avangions are extremely rare, they might be concerned that they had some special abilitiies that would make them a greater threat.
Is the concern about an avangion worth the risk involved in trying to eliminate him? The sorcerer kings don't trust one another, so working together to muster a strike force capable of guarenteing success is a major undertaking. We're not talking about an assassination of a powerful Veiled Alliance leader or the like. I personally think they made the death of dregoth pitifully easy from a gameplay standpoint. Killing a sorcerer king in their own stronghold should be a daunting task for any collection of foes, even the united force of the other sk's.
Look at it from their perspective. If you're injured in the battle, who's to say that the other SK's won't turn on you, either on the spot, or by moving on your city while you recover. If you take too few SK's, who knows what defenses might be in place, I mean, you're advancing on a place of power, with all kinds of wards and barriers and what not, not to mention potential allies. One SK wouldn't do it alone, is 2 enough, 3, more? All this to stop a tree-hugger who might be a threat 2,000 years from now?
But why would a semi-early stage avangion be considered a greater threat to sorcerer king supremacy than any other advanced being? I don't see why oronis the avangion is more of a threat than oronis the dragon.
The only thing I can come up with, would be that they destroy what they don't understand, and since there hasn't ever been a full avangion, and even early stage avangions are extremely rare, they might be concerned that they had some special abilitiies that would make them a greater threat.
Actually, I doubt the SK's would even understand the difference between the Avangion transformation and the Dragon transformation. They would just see Keltis Doing Something Odd, and would likely assume it's some kind of Dragon Transformation. And as they don't want another Borys rampaging around, they'd probably move to stop him.
Actually, I doubt the SK's would even understand the difference between the Avangion transformation and the Dragon transformation. They would just see Keltis Doing Something Odd, and would likely assume it's some kind of Dragon Transformation. And as they don't want another Borys rampaging around, they'd probably move to stop him.
Actually, I've worked with the idea of there being an instinctual effect Avangions have on Dragons. They are polar opposites, yet instinctually can tell that the other is a potential threat. Look at it this way - Dragons would be able to recognize other Dragons, and see them as potential rivals, right? Like recognizing like, some instincual knowledge, predator to predator. An Avangion is the opposite of a Dragon in many ways - so, the Dragon would recognize the Avangion as a direct enemy - not merely a rival, but something loathsome to that Dragon, and vice-versa.
Simarily, I don't know that Oronis would only be focused on destroying the sorcerer kings. I think his first focus is on creating a preserver focused and good alignened environment for his citizens, and that conflict with the other sorcerer kings would be a very far out long term goal.
I agree whith you there. That's at least one of the reason he's ''hidding'' in New Kurn. But keep in mind that if Oronis came to be discovered he would have to defend himself. Of that I'm sure. He would also have to keep an eye on the evolution of every SKs so they dont reach the last metamorphis. just for the mere fact(to name just one) that a Dragon goes into a rampage for the next 100 years(or is it in one of the first 10th level spells in which it happens) Anyway, it has been proven that a full dragon on Athas is not a good thing ,and all SKs are a potential one.
Edit: Wanted to add something about advanced beings in general. I don't agree with the original alignment restrictions on which type of advanced being you can metamorphisize into. I think that it should be self selecting. A defiler would never chose to become an avangion because it would limit their defiling, just like a preserver would never chose to become a dragon because it would ruin their preserver status.
I don't think that because a character is an avangion or a dragon, they should automatically have particular motives. I think neutrality, political situation and role, and all kinds of other factors would influence the actions and position of an individual advanced being.
I'm not sure what your trying to say in your first paragraph for to me, you seem to have agreed--contradicting yourself--. I mean no evil being could become an avangion because it would demand to much sacrifice from their part (Oronis being the exception but he did sacrifice all to do so). Same for the preservers who would have to care less about life in general to become defilers and be capable of eventually becoming a dragon. And that's exactly what your implying. No? So evil and good alignement must be respected for prestiged advance beings.
As for the second paragraph, you may be right--they could have other motives then save the world (avangion) or become the most powerfull being on Athas even if it means to destroy it. But their main goal on becoming their respected advance being is just that.
But why would a semi-early stage avangion be considered a greater threat to sorcerer king supremacy than any other advanced being? I don't see why oronis the avangion is more of a threat than oronis the dragon.
Obviously the SKs consider avangions a threat, since Oronis is the only preserver to get this far, and that's by his hiding the fact that he is one. All of the other avangions have been killed. Not a good thing.
The only thing I can come up with, would be that they destroy what they don't understand, and since there hasn't ever been a full avangion, and even early stage avangions are extremely rare, they might be concerned that they had some special abilitiies that would make them a greater threat.
That, and the fact if more people knew of them, and what they were instead of listening to the SK's lies about the avangions, there might be more of them, which could be a slight problem...for the SKs...
Is the concern about an avangion worth the risk involved in trying to eliminate him? The sorcerer kings don't trust one another, so working together to muster a strike force capable of guarenteing success is a major undertaking. We're not talking about an assassination of a powerful Veiled Alliance leader or the like. I personally think they made the death of dregoth pitifully easy from a gameplay standpoint. Killing a sorcerer king in their own stronghold should be a daunting task for any collection of foes, even the united force of the other sk's.
Oronis might be able to handle one SK, but no way could he handle three or more. And if they came to New Kurn to battle him, they'd have lots of power-sources to defile, Oronis' home-base or not.
Look at it from their perspective. If you're injured in the battle, who's to say that the other SK's won't turn on you, either on the spot, or by moving on your city while you recover. If you take too few SK's, who knows what defenses might be in place, I mean, you're advancing on a place of power, with all kinds of wards and barriers and what not, not to mention potential allies. One SK wouldn't do it alone, is 2 enough, 3, more? All this to stop a tree-hugger who might be a threat 2,000 years from now?
Yes. If Hamanu and the others found out about Oronis, they'd be after him in a heartbeat. No ifs, ands, or buts about it.
Is the concern about an avangion worth the risk involved in trying to eliminate him? The sorcerer kings don't trust one another, so working together to muster a strike force capable of guarenteing success is a major undertaking. We're not talking about an assassination of a powerful Veiled Alliance leader or the like. I personally think they made the death of dregoth pitifully easy from a gameplay standpoint. Killing a sorcerer king in their own stronghold should be a daunting task for any collection of foes, even the united force of the other sk's.
They've put aside their differances in the past destory Dregoth and Kalid-Ma. I'm sure they would to destory Oronis.
I would think the SKs would be smart enough to realize that Ononis was no longer a Dragon in the normal sense and would seek to eliminate what they don't understand.
The times that the sorcerer kings have worked together in the manner required to eliminate Oronis were:
A) to prevent the emergence of an animalistic stage dragon
B) to prevent the release of Rajaat
C) under the direction of Borys.
An avangion in a distant city does not seem to me to be the kind of direct threat required against a SK's home city-state that would motivate them to work together to remove it. It's just another hostile peer.
An avangion in a distant city does not seem to me to be the kind of direct threat required against a SK's home city-state that would motivate them to work together to remove it. It's just another hostile peer.
He's doing some strange magic that's obivously a form of the Dragon Enchantment. Okay, so he looks like a butterfly, but I just bet he's about to go on a murderous rampage ala Borys, or complete his Dragon Transformation just like Dregoth. Avangion? What's that? Any fool knows that the only way to power is to become a Dragon! Why would any Dragon King do any other kind of Transformation? It's not like he would turn his back on his past and become Good or anything...
Obviously the SKs consider avangions a threat, since Oronis is the only preserver to get this far, and that's by his hiding the fact that he is one. All of the other avangions have been killed. Not a good thing.
What others? The only other avangion was Korgunard, and he was killed because he screwed with the Order, not by a SK.
Nerad (avangion #2) was reported by Kalak to the Dragon, which went on to kill him.
Hamanu tried to have Korgunard (avangion #3) killed, but the Order killed him first.
Non-official: Hamanu personnaly heads out to kill Amiska (avangion #4) after his failure to kill Korgunard. He thinks he succeeds but kills the wrong person, a question of mistaken identity.
And where is Amiska from?
Amiska is the avangion that appears in the story that goes along with the Arcane Shadows adventure.
There is also an avangion that predates Oronis, but information on this one is hard to find. It appears in Terrors of the Deadlands and would seem to be a rhulisti avangion. This may be the avangion that founded an ancient alliance with the kreen Great One.
Then there is Kether, the Sage who is also apparently the Wanderer in the Tribe of One series, although this guy is not often accepted as canon by most fans.
He's doing some strange magic that's obivously a form of the Dragon Enchantment. Okay, so he looks like a butterfly, but I just bet he's about to go on a murderous rampage ala Borys, or complete his Dragon Transformation just like Dregoth. Avangion? What's that? Any fool knows that the only way to power is to become a Dragon! Why would any Dragon King do any other kind of Transformation? It's not like he would turn his back on his past and become Good or anything...
Not saying that Oronis is the embodiment of good, but he is definitely not a rampaging Dragon or will ever be... not in my game, anyways. So I guess I must be a fool. A Dragon would change to redeem himself. It seems Oronis is not as power-hungry as any other SK (not saying that he is not, just not as much and more altruistic in his motives). He is THE exception to the rule... and what's wrong with that?
The times that the sorcerer kings have worked together in the manner required to eliminate Oronis were:
A) to prevent the emergence of an animalistic stage dragon
B) to prevent the release of Rajaat
C) under the direction of Borys.
An avangion in a distant city does not seem to me to be the kind of direct threat required against a SK's home city-state that would motivate them to work together to remove it. It's just another hostile peer.
I agree, besides for the SKs to attack would mean they would have to know about Oronis' condition, this could happen by some mean depending on how he lets himself known to the lizardfolk. I mean does anybody know (apart maybe from some of his high templars) who and what he really is?
Coming out and saying: ''Hi mister lizard-man, sir, I am the one who tried to kill every last one of your ancestors but I am an avangion now so it's OK... sorry about the past, though!'' would probably not be his best bet. He wouldn't come straight out. He would take his time and would get some of the lizardfolk on his side. Maybe acting as a link to their ancestral history (he must have this knowledge since he was meant to destroy them). The wise and powerful stranger (maybe even in the form of a lizard-man) would gain their confidence, explainig the way things were back then, make them understand the history of Athas... to let it sink in before he would truly show himself. If the lizardfolk were agressive and wanting revenge, he probably wouldn't show himself or let them have their revenge on an illusion of himself. I don't think he's good (or stupid) enough to give himself up to them... and he certainly wouldn't be hasty, after all Oronis must be pretty patient if he lasted that long.
Now a few somewhat off-topic questions:
What stage avagion is Oronis?
Rhullisti avangion? Is he dead? Is it the same transformation? Did Oronis base his research on it or what?
You can still read it... might be indirectly insightful. :whatsthis
As for the guy who helped Keltis design the avangion spell, here is a quote from the Timeline, followed by quotes for each other official avangion:
183rd King's Age (-539)
-Guthay's Fury
With the aid of a wizard named Besteren, Oronis (formerly known as Keltis) develops the preserver metamorphosis spell to counter Rajaat's vile magic. The spell nearly kills him, but in the end Oronis emerges as Athas's first avangion.
184th King's Age (-462)
-King's Fury
Oronis gives the preserver metamorphosis spell to a preserver/psionicist named Nerad, who becomes Athas's second avangion.
-Wind's Fury
After revealing himself to the Veiled Alliance of Tyr, Nerad is discovered by King Kalak-who in turn contacts the Dragon. Borys later kills Nerad south of Tyr. In his grief, Oronis hides all copies of the preserver metamorphosis spell.
190th King's Age
-Desert's Slumber
After years of investigation into the death of Nerad, a preserver/psionicist named Korgunard learns of Oronis of Kurn. Though reluctant to have another death on his hands, Oronis gives him the preserver metamorphosis spell-but does not allow him to retain a copy.
-Wind's Reverence (Free Year 2)
Aided by the Veiled Alliance of Urik, Korgunard becomes Athas's third avangion.
-Mountain's Fury (Free Year 4)
The ancient artifact the Psionatrix is activated by the Order, a powerful organization of psionic purists, nullifying psionics across The avangion Korgunard is slain while trying to convince members of the Order to deactivate the Psionatrix. One of the members, a halfling named Pakk, consumes the avangion's remains.
Not saying that Oronis is the embodiment of good, but he is definitely not a rampaging Dragon or will ever be... not in my game, anyways. So I guess I must be a fool. A Dragon would change to redeem himself. It seems Oronis is not as power-hungry as any other SK (not saying that he is not, just not as much and more altruistic in his motives). He is THE exception to the rule... and what's wrong with that?
Dude, I'm pretty much sure Korvar was impersonating a Sorcerer-King or something. He was talking like someone who knows nothing of Avangions and does not believe in redemption, only in power. Just like a Sorcerer-King.
I wouldn't go as far as saying fool, but only "lacking in attention".
I was only giving my point of view.And as for my lack of attention, I am both pretty tired and high on cafeine.
PB :D
Rhullisti avangion? Is he dead? Is it the same transformation? Did Oronis base his research on it or what?
He's bit of a curiosity, actually. The timeline is pretty explicit in saying that Oronis was Athas' first avangion, having developed the process along with Beshteren (about whom nothing else is known, afaik) so I am not sure where the rhulisti would fit in.
The rhulisti avangion appears in TotDL but is not overtly named as such. I'll post the relevant passage at the end of this post (I bang on about this about once every six months, so should probably have it as a sig, heh heh). Anyway, Gab did say that the "winged halfling" mentioned in TotDL is a rhulisti avangion but unfortunately I don't recall if it was a legacy from the TSR notes on TotDL or if it was something cooked up in the earlier phases of athas.org's development of the supplement.
At any rate, this passage poses some interesting questions (not least regarding its staus as canon or not) and normally sparks some really bizarre discussions about time-travel. It also features a "wise spirit" that guides a band of elves and has the kreen Great One and the rhulisti combining their powers to grant spells. Fascinating stuff. Anyway, here is the passage itself - it's from the "personality" section of the sample raaig in TotDL.
Nevalaeg never expected to be a holy warrior. He lived in the dark days when his people, and many peoples, were refugees fleeing the genocidal armies of terrible Champions. His devotion was to survival, not religion. Yet the wise spirit that guided his people, a mysterious being called Iliandrim, had directed his elven band upriver to a place secret from the armies of Albeorn. The City of Strong Walls the elves called it, though those who lived there before had other names.
And such wondrous beings! There were humans there, to be sure, but also many gangly insect-men, kreen they called themselves, tall and sharp-edged with nipping claws. Hidden in forbidden enclosures halfling miracle-workers closeted themselves. Over all ruled two kings, one like a winged halfling and the other the greatest kreen Nevalaeg could imagine. Both were mindbenders beyond peer, and together they contrived to grant spells to those that served them most directly.
Nevalaeg knew that to these Great Ones did he owe his and his people’s survival. He petitioned his chief and was permitted to join the ranks of those who worshiped the Great Ones, swearing his eternal loyalty to them and their kingdom. In return he received the gift of spells like those of priests, and labored in the guard that minded the borders of the City of Strong Walls. He was proud, and bold, and soon won a reputation as one of the kingdom’s most ardent warriors. Even among the kreen, who seemed to regard his kind with undue interest, Nevalaeg was treated as an honored companion.
The time of peace, like all such times, came to a grim end. Nevalaeg led several cadres of troops in the fighting retreat west to the City of Strong Walls, then defended the walls themselves against the brutal siege waged against them. He found that their enemies had holy warriors as well, and matched his blade and faith against more than a few of them. But Nevalaeg could see that his society was falling apart. The halfling-like Great One had vanished before the invasion, and the kreen Great One was overwhelmed by the need to keep its fellow kreen from eating the other citizens in their hunger. When the enemy broke in, he fought alongside the kreen Great One, slaying many foes before finally succumbing, arrows in his chest and both eyes, and having his body trampled by the armies of the victors.
Nevalaeg’s faith survived his death, however. He returned, an insubstantial shade, to survey the scene of ruin and desolation. The City of Strong Walls was destroyed, its remnants buried by the ravenous sands. Nevalaeg could sense, though, that the power of the Great Ones was still very much alive, somewhere, somewhere he could not quite reach. He determined to stay at the ruined temple in the city, biding his time until the Great Ones returned. The sands closed over him, and King’s Ages passed, yet still he waits.
Nevalaeg may be found in the ruins of the Great Ones’ palace, which he has partially restored. The palace, like the city in ruins around it, is buried deep in the sands of the central Hinterlands, unknown outside the dust-encrusted records in Tyr and Kalidnay. Nevalaeg will be surprised to see visitors, and will question any that come about the Great Ones. He will be particularly interested in any news of avangion-like beings, or reports of the G'lathuk. He will attack without mercy anyone bearing a templar’s emblem signifying service to Kalak, Kalid-Ma, or Borys.
Dude, I'm pretty much sure Korvar was impersonating a Sorcerer-King or something. He was talking like someone who knows nothing of Avangions and does not believe in redemption, only in power. Just like a Sorcerer-King.
Indeed. You get a cookie!
All avangions have to get the spell from Oronis, there's no other way around.:
I don't mean to sound insulting, but that's just dumb. It isn't like he patented it and nobody else can create it. Anyone who dedicates the appropriate amount of resources and has the kind of information needed should be able to develop the process. It may be harder or easier depending on your campaign, but there is no reason to think that a character who is adequately prepared with feats, levels, background information, and other requirements couldn't come to the development of the avangion metamorphisis process entirely without having it handed to them by Oronis.
Yes it took him a long time to come up with it, but that could have been because of a number of reasons, like he was busy running his city and keeping his secret, or he had to spend the majority of the time unlearning the dragon / defiler parts of his character, or perhaps he's just not very good at epic spell development.
Think of it in terms of real world science, Einstein developed his theory of relativity, but it is not realistic to think that some other super genius couldn't have come to the same theory if Einstein hadn't, or that we never would have figured out gravity on our own if not for Newton.
I don't mean to sound insulting, but that's just dumb. It isn't like he patented it and nobody else can create it. Anyone who dedicates the appropriate amount of resources and has the kind of information needed should be able to develop the process. It may be harder or easier depending on your campaign, but there is no reason to think that a character who is adequately prepared with feats, levels, background information, and other requirements couldn't come to the development of the avangion metamorphisis process entirely without having it handed to them by Oronis.
Yes it took him a long time to come up with it, but that could have been because of a number of reasons, like he was busy running his city and keeping his secret, or he had to spend the majority of the time unlearning the dragon / defiler parts of his character, or perhaps he's just not very good at epic spell development.
Think of it in terms of real world science, Einstein developed his theory of relativity, but it is not realistic to think that some other super genius couldn't have come to the same theory if Einstein hadn't, or that we never would have figured out gravity on our own if not for Newton.
So then why is it that the only two other known preservers who have attempted the avangion metamorphosis went strait to Oronis when his name came up in their researches. I guess the answer would be: because they would of died long before acheiving their goal. Oronis is immortal(unless killed of course) he had plenty of time to do his research. Not the others. And although both process of metamorphosis(drag & avan) are oposite, they may have the same roots. So Keltis hadd a big head start when he search to become Oronis.
Anyway that's how I see it.
I don't mean to sound insulting, but that's just dumb. It isn't like he patented it and nobody else can create it.
Well, that's pretty much it. He created the process, plus he was a Champion of Rajaat when he tackled it, was aware that advanced beings were possible, had an advanced being on hand to study: himself, had the help of a preserver, and it took him 1,000 years.
Anyone else tackling the problem would be lesser in mastery of magic and psionics and would have great difficulty staying alive for so long. In short: it would take anyone else far longer than a thousand years to recreate from scratch.
There are a couple of dicsussions on exactly why other avangions need to get their metamorphosis spells from Oronis, and I believe they are in the first or second page of theis board.
And although both process of metamorphosis(drag & avan) are oposite, they may have the same roots.
I had this idea that the avangion spell is a variant of the dragon spell.
If you imagine that one of the Champions developped the dragon metamorphosis and wrote the spell (Borys later used it to make everyone a dragon), then every Champion has a copy including Keltis. He researches the avangion process and discovers he can switch the final product that the spell creates, from dragon to avangion. He also painstakingly changes the spell so that it no longer has any defiling in it.
If you go with Rajaat made everyone a dragon/Champion from the get go, not needing to cast a spell to metamorphose at all but the changes happening inexorably on their own, then a Champion develops the spell for whatever purposes (academic, more power, ...). Eventually every Champion has a copy of it and Keltis changes his so he can switch the final product that the spell creates, from dragon to avangion. He also painstakingly changes the spell so that it no longer has any defiling in it.
In my opinion, the reason he spent that long on his transformation represents the alignment shift, ridding himself of the dragon template, learning how to research and cast spells as a preserver....not the time required to develop the avangion metamorphisis spell.
Anyone who is in a position to begin looking into an advanced being metamorphisis is going to be aware at least that a process exists to become an advanced being and the basics of what that process might entail. It isn't exactly common knowledge, but the movers and shakers in the VA have this information as do a handful of others, especially after the events of the prism pentad.
There are even several sources of notes or laboratories to be uncovered that would give even greater specific detail on the process I am sure. To name a few Kalak, Korgunard, Kalid-Ma, Sielba, and even Farcluun (sp?) could have left behind enough information for someone to make great strides in their own spell research.
In game terms, you have to believe that Oronis has some psi / spellcraft skill beyond that attainable by anyone else in existence ever in order to justify him being the only possible source for the avangion metamorphisis spell. Certainly it's going to be rare, and I realize that the only ones who have attempted it have gotten assistance from him, but that doesn't mean that they couldn't have puzzled it out on their own, that's what spellcraft is all about.