My question is, what exactly happened to Kalak, and how, that resulted in Tyr becoming a 'city-state'?
I suppose primarily I would like to know where this information exists within the canon literature, rather than you having to explain it to me.
From what I can gather 'City-State of Tyr' details the city as it currently is, and its state of freedom, rather than actually telling what happened to Kalak.
Can anyone help?
Mark.
My question is, what exactly happened to Kalak, and how, that resulted in Tyr becoming a 'city-state'?
I might be wrong, but could you be confusing becoming a 'free' city-state with becoming a 'city-state'? Because Tyr is one of the oldest city-state out there.
Once in the Green Age, they were great cities that were part of domains run by kings or lawmakers. As soon as the domains collapsed from the wars and their main cities got taken over by the SKs, they became city-states.
could you be confusing becoming a 'free' city-state with becoming a 'city-state'?
No, really I just meant 'what happened to Kalak'?
I thought the 'Freedom' modules were set after Kalak's death, or am I wrong?
I'm not going to read any of the Prism Pentad novels - my initial disposition towards them has only been augmented by comments by people on this forum- that they're generally not very faithful to the Dark Sun world.
No, really I just meant 'what happened to Kalak'?
I thought the 'Freedom' modules were set after Kalak's death, or am I wrong?
I'm not going to read any of the Prism Pentad novels - my initial disposition towards them has only been augmented by comments by people on this forum- that they're generally not very faithful to the Dark Sun world.
"Freedom" is set before, during, and immediately after.
I'd recommend reading the PP novels, although preferrably through a library or borrowing them from someone else. Faithful or not, they're the canon history. Even if you want to divirge (as I, and many others, do), it's a good idea to see what you're divirging from.
No, really I just meant 'what happened to Kalak'?
I thought the 'Freedom' modules were set after Kalak's death, or am I wrong?
I'm not going to read any of the Prism Pentad novels - my initial disposition towards them has only been augmented by comments by people on this forum- that they're generally not very faithful to the Dark Sun world.
It's pretty hard to claim that the Prism Pentad series is not very faithful to the Dark Sun world, considering they were written by the designer of the campaign setting, and were the very basis for much of what goes on. Maybe you are mistaking them with the Tribe of One series, or something else. But Prism Pentad's very much close and in line with the Dark Sun world. Now true, some people don't like certian events that ocurred, but that's a completely different animal. You apparently are judging a book by it's cover, relying on what some people say about it, as opposed to reading it, and making your own mind up.
What a certain part of the community doesn't like about the Prism Pentad novels is not their depiction of athasian life, but rather the path down which the heroes of Tyr take the story: most people don't want to see Kalak, Abalach and Tec dead, Andropinis emprisonned, Kalak killed by mortals...
Also they find most of the heroes badly written and accomplishing dumb actions for dumb reasons.
But the story itself is 100% DS.
Basically I want to advance the campaign in that Kalak is killed (because I want to use 'City-State of Tyr', it looks nice), but I do find it a bit silly with other SKs being killed, etc.
To Korvar: I didn't know 'Freedom' was set before Kalak's fall as well. I don't usually consider buying adventure modules but I might buy 'Freedom' based on what you've said. Would you reccomend it?
I'm still not sure if I'd like to read three books, given the limited time available, when I don't always like reading D&D novels.
Admittedly I've only read three (the three about Drizzt do'Urden) when I was probably about 14, but this sort of fantasy novel wouldn't naturally be my first choice, if you see what I mean.
I like the DS setting a lot, and find it (dare I say it) maybe more mature than the Forgotten Realms, but I get the impression I'd like it less if I read these what with "Kalak, Abalach and Tec dead, Andropinis imprisoned" (I didn't even know the others were killed).
Some people seemed to react a bit hostile to my first post, especially that it wasn't faithful to the DS material- I wasn't claiming to know anything; I haven't read it! I did say that it was only an impression and obviously it was a mistaken one if those that have read it find it close to the canon material.
Mark.
To Korvar: I didn't know 'Freedom' was set before Kalak's fall as well. I don't usually consider buying adventure modules but I might buy 'Freedom' based on what you've said. Would you reccomend it?
Well, given it's less than $5 from SVGames, yeah
The adventure, as it stands, takes the PCs through the events of Kalak's fall - essentially, the "side" events that take place while the main characters of the Prism Pentad do their thing.
It's a bit railroady, but then most of the flipbook modules were. Plus it's taking place against a backdrop of Great Events that most PCs wouldn't be able to effect. But I had fun with it, and the improvised aftermath.
There were a few things that appeared in the Prisim Pentad that didn't seem to be the way they were in the actual setting books. Sadira's constant wrestling with defiling, for example; there was no indication you could switch between Defiling and Preserving, and there were no rules for it at all.
Actually, there was. Namely, she was more like a tainted Preserver, but not quite a full Defiler. The rules stood that a preserver could defile, but a defiler can't preserve.
Ok, well like I said I never have read them- the impression I got was obviously a wrong one.
Basically I want to advance the campaign in that Kalak is killed (because I want to use 'City-State of Tyr', it looks nice), but I do find it a bit silly with other SKs being killed, etc.
Well, the SK's being killed is actually very nicely explained and handled. It's amazing what happens when the being which made the SK's into his Champions originally, and they lock him up, gets freed aftr millenia of imprisonment. Lotta SK's die then. Personally, I liked the whole shake-up it did to the world.
I'm still not sure if I'd like to read three books, given the limited time available, when I don't always like reading D&D novels.
Admittedly I've only read three (the three about Drizzt do'Urden) when I was probably about 14, but this sort of fantasy novel wouldn't naturally be my first choice, if you see what I mean.
Prism Pentad, by the very word Pentad is 5 books, not 3. It's not the Prism Trilogy, which whould be, by the definition of that word, 3. Just nitpicking...
I like the DS setting a lot, and find it (dare I say it) maybe more mature than the Forgotten Realms, but I get the impression I'd like it less if I read these what with "Kalak, Abalach and Tec dead, Andropinis imprisoned" (I didn't even know the others were killed).
Well, as I said, the novels e4xplain how this comes to pass. Short of Kalak's death, the other Sorcerer-Kings, plus the Dragon, are killed either by Rajaat directly, by him indirectly, or through a proxy like Sadira became to his power. Andropinis was imprisoned by Rajaat as well. Rajaat is a very powerful, godlike being, the Warbringer himself, who invented Arcane magic, and made the SK's into his Champions to wipe out all the Rebirth races. Magic comes to him as naturally as breathing does to humans, and he's relatively immune to any arcane magical spell. It only goes to figure that the being who made the SK's, should be able to destroy them.
Some people seemed to react a bit hostile to my first post, especially that it wasn't faithful to the DS material- I wasn't claiming to know anything; I haven't read it! I did say that it was only an impression and obviously it was a mistaken one if those that have read it find it close to the canon material.
Mark.
Sorry if I came off hostile, I was just pointing that your perception's a bit off. The author of the Prism Pentad, Troy Denning, was the developer of the setting, and the Dark Sun campaign setting was wrapped around those novels.
Actually, there was. Namely, she was more like a tainted Preserver, but not quite a full Defiler. The rules stood that a preserver could defile, but a defiler can't preserve.
Can you remember where this was in the original boxed set? I've had a glance through my ESD of it, but there's nothing about Preservers using Defiling magic, nor any reason why they'd want to. The benefit to Defiling was the quicker level advancement, nothing situational. As I recall the original boxed set, there was no reason for a Preserver to Defile.
If I'm wrong, I'd like to know
Can you remember where this was in the original boxed set? I've had a glance through my ESD of it, but there's nothing about Preservers using Defiling magic, nor any reason why they'd want to. The benefit to Defiling was the quicker level advancement, nothing situational. As I recall the original boxed set, there was no reason for a Preserver to Defile.
If I'm wrong, I'd like to know
You said "setting books", not "Original Boxed Setting". There is a significant difference in this.
You said "setting books", not "Original Boxed Setting". There is a significant difference in this.
As I recall, the Prism Pentad came out when the only setting books were the ones in the original Boxed Set. Was there anything in between?
Originally Posted by xlorepdarkhelm
Actually, there was.
...he meant not in the 'original boxed set' but in the original 2E supplements and boxes, of which there are over 20.
The 'original boxed set' did not contain rules on dragons, nor did it contain rules on the taint of defilement. The latter is a failing on the part of the design team, yes, in that they should have strived from the start to adapt the Verdant Passage and its vision of preserving/defiling.
But they did adapt it, just not in the 'original boxed set', but in Defilers & Preservers. Even though it came after the original boxed set release, even came after a revised boxed set release, doesn't make it less a rule adaptation of the novels.
As I recall, the Prism Pentad came out when the only setting books were the ones in the original Boxed Set. Was there anything in between?
Yes, several game aids. But you still aren't getting the point. There was a communication breakdown within TSR, that built worse and worse throughout the lifespan of Dark Sun. TSR was not letting gamesystem book designers necessarily know what the novelists were doing, and vice versa. The Original Boxed Set was built from Troy's descriptions. There could have very well been rules for handling converting between Preservers and Defilers that was cut out of the initial Boxed Set release. But, the entire setting is *built* from Denning's novels. IIRC, Verdant Passage was either released just before the Original Boxed Set, or just after. or it was something along those lines. There also was the entire "Freedom" series of adventures. Your disbelief that the setting was designed from that novel series doesn't somehow make it not be true.
As I recall, the Prism Pentad came out when the only setting books were the ones in the original Boxed Set. Was there anything in between?
No, your right, there was nothing between Dark Sun World Boxed Set TSR2400 and The Verdant Passage TSR 2402. Well, perhaps Freedom TSR 2401, but that's an adventure without new rules. The taint rules that allow a preserver to defile but don't allow a defiler to preserve, were written 5 years later and incorporated into Defilers and Preservers: The Wizards of Athas TSR2445. But do understand that those rules come from an adaptation of the Prism Pentad novels, some of those novels written years before the release of that particular supplement.
When I first read The Verdant Passage, Sadira seemed to be one in a long line of TSR Novel Magic Users whose magic is unique for no good reason. Now, of course, that's just down to the order I read the supplements & novels in; all the subsequent supplements have gone with the Defiler Taint idea, so in fact Sadira is pretty much a typical Athasian Wizard (well, until the Sun Wizard thing, anyway!).
In my personal private Dark Sun, Preservers can't do Defiler magic and Defilers can't do Preserver, to the extent that they can't share spellbooks (without some translation work, anyway). (I'm fairly sure I got that from some official supplement, but darned if I can recall where). But that's my own personal private Dark Sun, and nobody except my players is forced to play there :D