Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Sep 05, 2004 15:52:57	In Slave Tribes (pp. 67-68), one of the subordinates to Werrik of Werrik's Raiders (or House Werrik) is a half-giant called Doorub. In the description it says that "the half-giant is huge, even among his own kind" and that "his legendary strength makes him a formidable fighter". However, his Strength score is only 19. This is the same as the tribe's leader, a female human bard. The human fighter Sortar of Sortar's Army, probably half Doorub's size (given that Doorub is huge for a half-giant) is in fact stronger than him, with a Strength of 20. Krom the dwarf from Krikik's Pack actually has a Strength of 21, two points higher than this half-giant of "legendary strength". Also, Krom will be about a third of Doorub's size. Many other characters given in Slave Tribes have a Strength of 20, especially many of the muls. Now I think in this case the stats simply do not match the description. I have no problem with the other characters in the book having high strength- Krom's Strength of 21 is fine as far as I'm concerned, as dwarves are supposed to have a huge muscle mass. For me the problems are: 1) A half-giant that is "huge, even among his own kind" and has "legendary strength" should have more than 19, a score that mere humans can best. 2) Any PC half-giant must have a Strength of 21 at very least (because of the requirement of Strength 17, with an +4 bonus). I know that PCs are supposed to be exceptional examples of their race, and so one could argue that this is not a requirement of NPCs, but without the racial bonus of +4 this would leave Doorub with Strength 15; not something I would consider appropriate for turning into a half-giant. What's more, Strength 19 isn't particularly legendary. Has anyone else ever considered this? Mark.
#2 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Sep 05, 2004 16:24:59	Do bear in mind that 2E stats are not even remotely the same thing as 3/3.5e stats. it's a completely different scale. In 2E, it was rare, if not legendary in and of itself to find anyone with a strength of 19, since there was the whole 18/01 - 18/100 formula for strengths. IIRC, the conversion for a strength 19 character from 2E to 3/3.5E is actually closer to a 23 or 24. Also, IIRC, all half-giants in 2E had their strength doubled or something.
#3 korvar Sep 05, 2004 17:44:49	In the first boxed set, Half Giants had to have a minimum strength of 17 before adjustments, then they got +4 to strength. So they ranged from 21 to 24 in strength, according to the First Boxed Set rules. (rummage rummage) And the same in the Revised Set. There is a table showing the stat benefits for values that high in the Revised Boxed Set, but I can't seem to find one in the PDF of the First Boxed Set. Strange...
#4 zombiegleemax Sep 05, 2004 18:27:21	Do bear in mind that 2E stats are not even remotely the same thing as 3/3.5e stats. It's 2E that I'm talking about; obviously Slave Tribes and the other supplements are all 2E, but we actually play 2E too. This post was written from a 2E point of view, if you see what I mean. In 2E, it was rare, if not legendary in and of itself to find anyone with a strength of 19, since there was the whole 18/01 - 18/100 formula for strengths. In the default AD&D setting it was, but as it says on p.2 of the original campaign setting rule book, "six ability scores are determined randomly ... to obtain a score from 5 to 20. These numbers are, on average, higher than those for characters in other campaign worlds"; character ability scores are determined by rolling 4D4 + 4 (this is the default method). Add to this the +4 Strength bonus for half-giants, along with the +1 for dwarves and +2 for muls. Although Strength 19 is still a very high score, half-giants can reach 24, muls 22, dwarves 21 and humans/elves/half-elves/thri-kreen 20 as a starting character and without any magical items/spells. The reason I gave examples of the other characters in Slave Tribes is that Doorub cannot be considered legendary, or appropriate for a huge half-giant when the human bard of his tribe has equal Strength, and many (literally several in that book alone) have higher than 19, especially the mul that are often tribe leaders. The dwarf Krom has Strength 21. Also, IIRC, all half-giants in 2E had their strength doubled or something. They double their hit-point rolls before adding bonuses, but recieve an +4 bonus to Strength.
#5 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Sep 05, 2004 20:58:42	It's 2E that I'm talking about; obviously Slave Tribes and the other supplements are all 2E, but we actually play 2E too. This post was written from a 2E point of view, if you see what I mean. Ok, chill. 90%+ of the people who ask questions about Dark Sun here in these forums, are asking about 3/3.5E. I had assumed you were referring to converting the character across from the 2E book to 3/3.5E (which many, many people do). I'm sorry if it somehow offended you that I provided tips for 3E conversions, especially since you didn't specify edition in your original question, but please, don't make it personal. They double their hit-point rolls before adding bonuses, but recieve an +4 bonus to Strength. My bad. Honestly, I don't know much about 2E, as a) I never ran it and only played like 3 games ever in 2E and thought the system stank, preferring anything to 2E AD&D, and b) I've played/ran 3/3.5E games ever since the first books for those systems were released by WotC. So, my knowledge of 2E is well... limited. Sorry if I got the facts wrong.
#6 zombiegleemax Sep 05, 2004 21:17:04	but please, don't make it personal. How did I make it personal? There wasn't any personal reference to you! I don't mind that you provided 3E stuff- like you said I didn't say which edition I meant, and so in my reply I told you that we're playing 2E. Since most posts are either about fluff or 3E rules rather than 2E, I suppose I'll make sure I clarify beforehand. Still, just because you play 3E the question is still relavent- if you converted Doorub's stats they would still be apparently wrong, since he's proportionally weaker than a half-giant needs to be (because of racial requirements) and in light of his description it doesn't make much sense. Mark.
#7 zombiegleemax Sep 05, 2004 21:46:18	i'm about to make a big assumtion, you are the dm. if that is the case just change the offending ability score to better reflect what you feel it should be. if it is listed as 19 and doorub is supposed to be "exceptional for his race", make it 24 or even 25 to reflect that. sounds to me like the 2nd rule of dnd any edition applies.
#8 zombiegleemax Sep 06, 2004 3:17:47	I would assume it was a simple mistake of his scores being the unmodified scores of being a half-giant. So that 19 is from 5d4. Just add the +4 str and bammo, yer in like gravy and gin.
#9 zombiegleemax Sep 06, 2004 4:03:45	just change the offending ability score to better reflect what you feel it should be. Of course, this is always a solution. I suppose I was wondering whether it was a mistake (which it certainly looks like to me), or if it was intentional and just a bit inconsistent. To Cap'n Nick: That theory makes sense to me, since that would solve the problem of his legendary strength (23 is pretty good) and also means that the abilities given actually qualify for a half-giant. Without the bonus Doorub has Strength 15, which isn't enough to normally qualify for the race. If I do include Werrik's Stakers and Doorub in an adventure, I'm certainly raising his Strength (yes, I am the DM)! Thanks, Mark.