DLCS
Linsha Majere: (Mystic/Ftr2/Rog3/Crown1/Sword3/Rose2)
Laura Majere: (Exp2)
AoM
Palin Majere (Sor7/Academy Sor10/Master Ambassador1)
ToHS
Raistlin Majere
WoTL
Raistlin Majere
Caramon Majere
Tika Waylan Majere
Kitiara Uth Matar
Now, apparently there will be a legends book with Raistlin and Caramon's final stats.
There are a few Majeres we don't have: Dezra, Usha and Ulin. (well, also the short-lived Tanin and Sturm)
Will they appear anywhere? (I was especially surprised that Ulin didn't appear in Aom)
What does everyone reckon for stats?
Ulin, I'd say, sorcerer/academy sorcerer, unless he had an epiphany.
Dezra, maybe a fighter/rogue
Usha spent some time as a thief in summer flame, so maybe some rogue levels along with the "master" class to signify her painting.
Any thoughts?
LG human Fighter 4/Knight of the Crown 1
Is there any info on what level Palin was when he was involved in the Summer of Chaos? If so, I would add like two levels to Sturm and Tanin to show that they had been adventuring longer than Palin. Has there ever been a painting of the older Majere boys done?
Tanin was a 5th Level fighter
Sturm was a 4th Level Fighter
Palin was a 4th level wizard.
So, around the time of the Chaos War, I'd say
Tanin: Ftr5/Crown Knight1
Sturm: Ftr4/Crown Knight1
Palin: Wiz3/WoHS2
The TotL boxed set had 2nd edition stats for the Majere brothers in 382 AC, around the time the "Wanna Bet?" short story takes place.
Tanin was a 5th Level fighter
Sturm was a 4th Level Fighter
Palin was a 4th level wizard.
So, around the time of the Chaos War, I'd say
Tanin: Ftr5/Crown Knight1
Sturm: Ftr4/Crown Knight1
Palin: Wiz3/WoHS2
How exactly can Palin go from being a Wiz 4 to being a Wiz 3/ WoHS2? For one, he can't be only a wiz 3, he doesn't have the Will Save, skill points, etc to qualify for being a member of the WoHS PrC. Did you, perhaps mean to make him a Wiz 4/ WoHS 2?
How exactly can Palin go from being a Wiz 4 to being a Wiz 3/ WoHS2? For one, he can't be only a wiz 3, he doesn't have the Will Save, skill points, etc to qualify for being a member of the WoHS PrC. Did you, perhaps mean to make him a Wiz 4/ WoHS 2?
Palin became a WoHS under 2nd Ed rules not 3rd. There are major differences between the two systems that the DnD conversion book cannot account for in DL. I think Cam stated on another post something to the effect, that in DL 2nd Ed levels and 3rd Ed levels really have very little in common. Besides,even Raistlin told Palin that he would be even more powerful than he, especially so if he trained under him. So giving him the WoHS at Wiz 3 isn't such a big deal considering Raist got it about the same time.
I just rearranged his levels, so he would take the WoHS prestige class right after his test.
EDIT: So giving him the WoHS at Wiz 3 isn't such a big deal considering Raist got it about the same time.
Exactly. Palin was something of a prodigy as well, being the youngest person to take the test until Coryn.
The 4th level palin was a post-test 2nd edition ad&d version of him.
I just rearranged his levels, so he would take the WoHS prestige class right after his test.
EDIT: So giving him the WoHS at Wiz 3 isn't such a big deal considering Raist got it about the same time.
Exactly. Palin was something of a prodigy as well, being the youngest person to take the test until Coryn.
I knew he was young, maybe within a year or so of Raistlin. I didn't think he was younger than Raist though. You do learn something new everyday.
Vincil: 22 years old
Raistlin: 21 years old
Palin: 20 years old
Coryn: late teens I think
What level was Raistlin in wizard when he took the test? I think that some times trying to translate game mechanics into the literature can cause problmes on both ends of the spectrum.
Because of his feat choices early on, Raistlin wasn't able to take a level of the wizard of High Sorcery class until he had 5 levels of wizard. My take on this is that he passed his Test when he was 3rd or 4th level, adventured with his brother and then reunited with the other Innfellows (5th level), and gained enough experience with Xak Tsaroth (and the recovery of the spellbook of Fistandantilus) that he was able to pick up his first level in the PrC.
Cheers,
Cam
Actually the Test was not madatory to progress beyond 3rd level in 1E. That was one way that characters could become renegades.
Point. But Raistlin wasn't a renegade and so it is a moot one. All I was saying was that Raistlin didn't have to be 5th level to take the Test back when the game rules were first drawn up. We're tripping over the compatibility issues between very different versions of the game rules.
Cheers,
Cam
I wonder if Palin would be keen on his "friend" Dalamar hunting down his son...
EDIT: Raistlin's level in Legends - somewhere between 22 (Fistandantilus) and 30.
Ulin would be a prime candidate for an epiphany. Although originally a sorceror, he was taught by Palin, who tended to try and make wild magic resemble High Sorcery in practice. That and a background in alchemy would present a reasonable rationale for switching classes.
Tanin: Ftr4/Crown Knight1
Sturm: Ftr4/Crown Knight1
Palin: Wiz4/WoHS1
This places them all at the same level, which you notice the companions all are now in WotL (for those who have it). Tanin and Sturm just became knights, and Palin just passed his test. This would be their class levels circa the Chaos War.
I've considered updating their stats to 3e, although I imagine they'll be covered in a Chaos-war era sourcebook sometime down the line.
As for Ulin, I agree that he would make for a good wizard. He studied alchemy in order to do something a bit more structured. I could easily see him leaving the unpredictable wild sorcery for the more structured high sorcery. I'd even give him skil focus in craft (alchemy).
Str 11 Dex 13 Con 13 Int 20 Wis 14 Cha 19
Skills: Craft (Alchemy) 19 ranks, Knowledge (Arcana) 19 ranks, Spellcraft 19 ranks, Use Magic Device 9 ranks, Diplomacy 9 ranks
Feats and Special Abilities: Spellcasting Prodigy (Sorcerer), Skill Focus (Alchemy), [Scribe Scroll], Magical Aptitude, [Brew Potion], Skill Focus (Spellcraft), Spell Focus (Abjuration), [Craft Wondrous Item], Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, [Craft Staff], Arcane Focus (Abjuration)
Prohibited Schools: Conjuration, Necromancy, Enchantment (from Arcane Focus).
----------
There's a nice base to work off of. Too lazy to check if skill ranks add up right, assuming he started with an 18 Int and upped it at 12th level and 16th level. Also, too lazy to do synergy bonuses and such.
Tired now. Sleep time.
-TRRW
*cough* big hint *cough*
I should really have that cough looked at. ;)
I'll probably post it when I get everything added up right and corrected and spiffified.
Same with the new Legion Mage PrC and "To Caramon's House We Go" (a short adventure for 4th to 6th level PCs that takes place during the mid-Fifth Age).
-TRRW
Just my thoughts.
Otherwise, probably Sorcerer 6/Academy Sorcerer 8.
-TRRW
Cheers,
Cam
Palin Majere (Sor7/Academy Sor10/Master Ambassador1
Palin: Wiz4/WoHS1
This has bugged me since his stats were released. There is probably a really good explanation for it but since I do not own the book I cannot see what it is.
Why are Palin's Wizard and WoHS levels not included in his stats now. He was a WoHS before he was a Sor. Anyone wanna clue me in on why they were not included in his stats?
Why are Palin's Wizard and WoHS levels not included in his stats now. He was a WoHS before he was a Sor. Anyone wanna clue me in on why they were not included in his stats?
Palin underwent an epiphany when he learned how to use wild magic (see page 97 in the DLCS, "Changing Focus"). This switches out existing levels in wizard (and wizard of High Sorcery) for sorcerer levels. A character cannot have levels in both sorcerer and wizard except during the transition process between classes.
Cheers,
Cam
Ulin really shouldn't be as high level as that, no. He'd be closer to 10th level, which is more or less the "active" level of most DL book characters. Anything more than that edges into the "been around for years and years" zone.
Cheers,
Cam
I dunno ... 10th level seems a little low for a Majere who's 37.
I dunno ... 10th level seems a little low for a Majere who's 37.
Age and family do not equate into levels. Levels are based on one's experiences.
For example, Mina is already 20th level, and she's not even 20 years old. Likewise, you could have a 50-year-old man who only has 2 levels of fighter since he served briefly in the War of the Lance.
Also, remember that Ulin is a dragon mage. While we don't have a dragon mage prestige class yet, it would be the arcane equivalent of the dragon rider. That being the case, Ulin would have to be around 10th level to even take that PrC.
Age and family do not equate into levels. Levels are based on one's experiences.
Normally I'd agree. But we're talking about the Majere family arcane spellcasters. The Majeres have shown an incredible aptitude (recently) in producing young, powerful, experienced arcane spellcasters. That Ulin, a Majere family arcane spellcaster would be so relatively low doesn't sound quite right to me given the context from which he has emerged.
Maybe he has a little bit more intelligence and learns a little bit quicker, but I don't personally believe that it would automatically add levels to him because of his relationship. In game terms I'd see it as something like a feat that gave him +1 to Intelligence(Feat name - Raistlin's Relative) haha, this is just an example =p. But I guess others see relatives as gaining quickly because of what blood they have or so. I guess it can happen.
That's why I was thinking he would be equal or higher in level to Linsha, who is level 12.
Palin, on the other hand, is almost 60 and has had decades to accumulate his class levels. While he certainly would have been higher level had he not hit the roadblock resulting from the loss of the gods early in the Fifth Age it is doubtful he'd be that much more powerful. Probably a Wiz10/WoHS10.
Ulin has also bounced around a bit, but I can't see him as more than a Wiz10/WoHS1 or Sor5/Aca6. He was nowhere near Palin's equal yet.
Raistlin is not a good yardstick to measure Majere family potential against. The vast majority of Raistlin's spectacular jump in levels was a direct result of his "merger" with Fistandantilus in which he came out as the spiritual winner. Prior to that he was a low-level wizard advancing only slightly faster than normal.
Erm. Raistlin was described in the Legends trilogy as being the most powerful archmage living on Krynn, so powerful that he clearly could have bested any of the Heads of the Three Orders in single combat, and this was when he was 28 years old. Raistlin was already the most powerful mage of the Fourth Age before he "merged" with Fistandantilus in pre-Cataclysm Istar. That's not exactly someone I'd categorize as a low-level wizard with slightly faster than normal advancement.
Really? I thought he had merged with Fistandantilus before that. Or at least that's what I got from the ending of Dragons of Summer Flame, where his voice sounds different, and Fizban says flat out, "He's Fistandantilus."
Erm. Raistlin was described in the Legends trilogy as being the most powerful archmage living on Krynn, so powerful that he clearly could have bested any of the Heads of the Three Orders in single combat, and this was when he was 28 years old. Raistlin was already the most powerful mage of the Fourth Age before he "merged" with Fistandantilus in pre-Cataclysm Istar. That's not exactly someone I'd categorize as a low-level wizard with slightly faster than normal advancement.
In the original Chronicles, Raistlin begins to exhibit increased powers as a result of increasing bargins with the disembodied spirit of Fistandantilus, who also helped him during his Test.
Raistlin is part of a temporal paradox (hence "Master of Past and Present"). Remember that in linear time he "merges" with Fistandantilus centuries before he is even born!
Thus the two of them are a blurry conjoined entity. Or as Tasslehoff put it "It used to be Fistandantilus-becoming-Raistlin-becoming-Fistandantilus. Now it's Raistlin-becoming-Fistandantilus-becoming-Raistlin". This ties into the whole time thing that gets mentioned in DL now and again. Like why the gods seemed unsurprised by Crysania's (a true cleric) presence in periods of history where true clerics ought not to have been. As part of the paradox Raistlin was already in a sense joined (in a temporal sense) with Fistandantilus when the dark wizard's spirit first contacted Raistlin during his Test!
Either way, Raistlin's extraordinary jump in levels come from assimilating all the magical knowledge and powers of Fistandantilus. Not from simple innate skill and advancement.
Raistlin is part of a temporal paradox (hence "Master of Past and Present"). Remember that in linear time he "merges" with Fistandantilus centuries before he is even born!
Damn, that's right. It's that whole predistination paradox time travel thing. I guess it all depends on which "merger" one's talking about, the minor/incomplete merger during Raist's Test or the more complete one back in Istar. Still, I'd like to think that after his minor merger, it was still primarily Raistlin we're talking about with little infusions of Fisty to help him along the way (e.g. how to use the dragon orbs, etc.)
Really? I thought he had merged with Fistandantilus before that. Or at least that's what I got from the ending of Dragons of Summer Flame, where his voice sounds different, and Fizban says flat out, "He's Fistandantilus."
Dragons of Summer Flame?
As for Ulin, yeah he participated in some of the more major events in the DoNA trilogy. That plus his age vis-a-vis Linsha makes me think of him as being in the same ballpark level as his sister (e.g. 12th or 13th).
As for Ulin, yeah he participated in some of the more major events in the DoNA trilogy. That plus his age vis-a-vis Linsha makes me think of him as being in the same ballpark level as his sister (e.g. 12th or 13th).
Of course, she's that level because she's a Rose Knight and there's a small matter of the various requirements involved in being one of those. As Trampas says, Ulin's a dragon mage in the Dragons of a New Age trilogy, but then again he hasn't been doing very much with that in his more recent appearances, so who knows?
I think the point is, there's a strong effort being made not to overpopulate Ansalon with high-level characters that could rival any of the real legends of the setting. The Realms have had to try very hard in 3rd edition to reduce the influence of these NPCs, and even still there are hundreds of 15th level plus characters in sourcebooks for FR. It's much more in the vein of Dragonlance to have them be in the mid-level bracket, from 7th to 12th and thereabouts (with, of course, some notable exceptions).
Cheers,
Cam
You have to admit that FR gets a little ridiculous at times. The population of 20+ level NPC's borders on absurd and you're almost left wondering why the PC's bother to get out of bed in the morning with all these titans running the show. Then again, to make it playable they turn around and make it seem as though 30th level villians are somehow not competent enough to accomplish their goals.
This doesn't mean that DL has an absolute moratorium on characters above 12th level. They're just more uncommon, which makes it possible for PC's to catch up much as the Heroes of the Lance and the Heroes of the Heart ultimately did.
You have to admit that FR gets a little ridiculous at times. The population of 20+ level NPC's borders on absurd and you're almost left wondering why the PC's bother to get out of bed in the morning with all these titans running the show.
No kidding, there's this one city in the FR that has a 23th, 20th, 18th, and 17th level wizards. The best part is that we've never heard of any of them ... erm, okay.
As leveled NPCs in Dragonlance I don't see it as much of a problem when/if they get statted out at a higher level then we're used to seeing (e.g. 13th+). One of the reasons it's not much of a problem (in terms of overshadowing any PCs) is the fact that these guys die. Alot. Examples of such worthy dead include:
Fiona
Rig Mer-Krel
Raistlin
Ariakas
Vincil
Palin (yeah he came back, but he also lost his powers, so he's effectively dead)
Dalamar (he did technically die ...)
Laurana
Fistandantilus
etc. etc.
That's one of the really nice facets of Dragonlance, there can be some powerful NPCs wandering about, altering the way the world works or manipulating events on a global scale ... and then they die. It's one of the things about Dragonlance that makes it so much more appealing to me than worlds like the FR, where you have powerful NPCs wandering about ... staying alive.
Exactly my point. And I don't think Ulin is high level, just somewhere between 11th and 14th.
I was leaning towards the 14th side, simply because he seems to have experienced more adventures than his younger sister (who wasn't in DoNA).
No kidding, there's this one city in the FR that has a 23th, 20th, 18th, and 17th level wizards. The best part is that we've never heard of any of them ... erm, okay.
I know. Isn't it hillarious? That's one of the things that strikes me as so silly about FR (aside from the super powers a lot of their NPC's have in addition to class abilities). But it's a sorry state of affairs when being a 17th level wizard doesn't even make you a mover and shaker in your own city. It's even sorrier when you can be over 20th level and still be a relative nobody. FR wasn't always this way, but they just kept piling on the twinkishness over the years. I still remember Elminister back before he had super powers.
Dragonlance is designed to be more friendly to PC's and offer them more opportunity to accomplish great things. That was the whole point of the original series of DL modules, which placed what amounted to a fairly average adventuring party onto the stage of world-shaking events.
I would be leery of putting Ulin up beyond 12th level just because heis adventuring career has varied between periods of relative inactivity and sudden bursts of action. The spread of his class levels is of course open to date in the current situation (what happens to a Dragon Sorceror that doesn't have a dragon?).
All of that said I personally would rather see him as wizard, and I would porbably rate him as a Wiz10/WoHS1 were he to take and pass the Test.
Has he been adventuring less than his younger sister? Ulin was in the DoNA books, I understand, whereas Linsha wasn't.
That's why I was thinking he would be equal or higher in level to Linsha, who is level 12.
Well...I did a lot of reading up on the siblings this weekend. I think Level 10 is probably pretty decent for Ulin for his time in Dragons of a New Age. The things is...although Ulin was an excellent study and very skilled in intellectual aspects of sorcery, he had hit a sort of wall when it came to sorcery (you could probably think of this as his INT is really high, but his CHA is maybe only 14 or so).
But then Ulin met Sunrise...and Ulin became the first Dragon Mage (which desperately needs an official PrC). I'd say that Ulin probably had one more level before the War of Souls...which was when Sunrise left. So, I think Ulin is an 11th level character in Dragon's Bluff. He probably has the minimum amount of Sorcerer level before he can be an Academy Sorcerer (isn't that 3 or 4?). So, I think he's probably Sorcerer3/Academy Sorcerer7/Dragon Mage1. That's my take on him.
However, now that the dragons are back...so long as Sunrise is still alive, I think he will go back to Ulin and they will continue growing in strength. For, the way I was reading the stuff yesterday, Ulin and Sunrise have more than just a friendship...there is a connection between the two on the meta-physical level, I think. One that they can't deny.
I personally hope Ulin stays as a sorceror. Just because I think having a good Majere practicing sorcery would maybe make the WoHS take pause and maybe not just assume that its wrong. I would like to see the conflict when the WoHS stand up and say "Hey don't use that magic" and there are people who are like Ulin who say bug off. And I don't personally think Palin would care one way or another. After deciding magic isn't the most important thing in his life, I think Palin would just want his son to be happy.
Again, I don't understand why people assume he would just switch to wizardry just because its available now.
Again, I don't understand why people assume he would just switch to wizardry just because its available now.
Who said anything about that? I said one level of Dragon Mage, and he'd probably start doing that again now that Sunrise is most likely back...but, although it's called Dragon "Mage" it's really a Dragon "Sorcerer."
There's no way a Wizard could be a Dragon Mage...it would call for mixing different types of magic...which won't work.
There's no way a Wizard could be a Dragon Mage...it would call for mixing different types of magic...which won't work.
Not necessarily. The magic used by dragons isn't enhanced by Chaos, and is therefore not in conflict with the power of the moons. Of course, there are a lot of other issues surrounding this, but keep in mind that the sorcerer spells of dragons don't quite work like those of mortal sorcerers.
Cheers,
Cam
Again, I don't understand why people assume he would just switch to wizardry just because its available now.
Because it's kewl!
Actually, you do raise a good point.
It is possible that Ulin may make the transfer. When Ulin was dabbling with alchemy, he seemed to want more control than what Wild Sorcery gives. High Sorcery would be the logical next step.
However, there is nothing suggesting that he will follow this course of action. He may very well go back to being a dragon mage and stick with sorcery.
So really, I can see writing up his stats either way.
I just wonder if one can be a wizard and a dragon mage both at the same time.
I don't see why not. You can be a Sorcerer and a Griffon Wizard, so I don't really see the difference.
A sorceror cannot be a Griffon Wizard. One of the requirements is that they must have passed the test of High Sorcery.
Aha, but wouldn't a pre 38 SC Palin Majere be able to circumvent this restriction? He is a sorcerer, but he has passed a Test of High Sorcery...
Palin isn't an elf, nor at that time is he able to prepare spells. ;)
are there any stats for Ulin and the Dragon mage class out there?
I'm afraid not. You may find some fan versions of the dragon mage on the Nexus, and I think the Tobril had a dragon sorcerer, but beyond that, there's not much.
It irks me because I just dont see him as switching to wizardry over sorcery. I think its presumptious to assume he would.
I don't think he would either thanks to his new talent with Sunrise.
That said, however, I do think he's more of an intellectual spell caster and doesn't have as much inner talent (or whatever you want to call the Charisma aspect of Sorcery) as, say, his father did...and so he had hit a sort of bump when it came to sorcery...a bump that would not exist with wizardry (being purely intellectual in nature).
So, if Sunrise did not return at the end of the War of Souls, and Ulin was still interested in magic, I do believe that he would switch to wizardry.
And that statement doesn't come easy for me...I'm one of the strong proponents for sorcery, and I don't believe that a) it should be treated as evil by these "new" wizards (like Dalamar and Jenna who had just been using it for the last 40 years)...I think that's retarded and hypocritical for them to now persecute those who practice what they themselves practiced, and b) I don't think that everyone would switch just like that.
Ulin, however, I believe is a good candidate for an "epiphany" if Sunrise does not return. (his fiance, Lucy, I believe is not, though)
and I don't believe that a) it should be treated as evil by these "new" wizards (like Dalamar and Jenna who had just been using it for the last 40 years)...I think that's retarded and hypocritical for them to now persecute those who practice what they themselves practiced
Well, it wasn't really 40 years, was it? More like 10, and only because it was all they had available. I don't think either of them liked it that much, from the sounds of things, and Dalamar was really keen to have his old magic back.
Cheers,
Cam
Well, it wasn't really 40 years, was it? More like 10
Heh heh...oops. Yeah, I meant 10.
And Dalamar I can almost see, as he didn't like it. The one that really bothers me is the Jenna is extremely judgemental of people who use sorcery (ie Coryn) and refuses to have anything to do with sorcery.
For one...I don't think that was written very well, in that I don't think she would have actually done that...but now that she has: I certainly don't like Jenna as a character anymore for I believe she is hypocritical and judgemental and is now holier-than-thou...and I hate that crap.
It's like a friend who has suddenly "found God" and treats her friends like shite because they still do the "un-Godly" things she used to do not more than one month ago, and she now cops an attitude with you about it.
......
Whoa...sorry about that...that kinda came out of no where. But, I stand by it.
Under SAGA, sorcery had no effect on living things per se, nor could it directly effect magic being primarily elemental in nature. The "schools" of sorcery (now shown in the Age of Mortals hardcover) actually defined what sorcery could do. Many spells like Charm Person, Detect Thoughts, Polymorph and Animate Dead were impossible without some knowledge of Mysticism. Likewise, spells that directly created or manipulated magical energy like Magic Missile, Dispel Magic, Anti-Magic Field and Wish were also impossible.
These were very frustrating limitations for sorcerors with backgrounds as Wizards of High Sorcery. Since the game designers didn't carry these constraints forward there is less of a clear differentiation between the two types of arcane magic.
Ulin seems very intelligence oriented and prone towards structured magic (as many of Palin's Academy Sorcerors would be). Hence his only incentive to sorcery would be Sunrise.
And that statement doesn't come easy for me...I'm one of the strong proponents for sorcery, and I don't believe that a) it should be treated as evil by these "new" wizards (like Dalamar and Jenna who had just been using it for the last 40 years)...I think that's retarded and hypocritical for them to now persecute those who practice what they themselves practiced, and b) I don't think that everyone would switch just like that.
A lot of this feeling comes from Wizards' Conclave, which is not only from the wizards' point of view, but also the foundation of the struggle ahead. I think you will find many sorcerers-turned-wizards who do have a sense of sympathy. The Orders of High Sorcery may yet be having some internal strife, due to differing viewpoints on the subject matter.
This is a struggle that is just beginning, and one that will take some time to settle. Some sorcerers will switch instantly, some will take time, others won't at all. The WoHS are allowing sorcerers to exist for now, but each order takes a different view on how to approach the sorcerers, and there's still this air of caution.
Whatever the case, this makes for some great role-playing opportunities, and some great inner strife.
Actually, even the SAGA material implied that was an artificial barrier and that Ulin and Palin were researching ways to overcome it.
As a note, the Master of the Tower of Wayreth never had these restrictions, which makes me believe, coupled with his attitude in Wizard's Conclave, that his powers were always wizardry.
Under SAGA, sorcery had no effect on living things per se, nor could it directly effect magic being primarily elemental in nature.
Actually, even the SAGA material implied that was an artificial barrier and that Ulin and Palin were researching ways to overcome it.
As a note, the Master of the Tower of Wayreth never had these restrictions, which makes me believe, coupled with his attitude in Wizard's Conclave, that his powers were always wizardry.
SAGA didn't really include the concept of character classes, so the "artificial" nature of the barrier was that an individual needed to learn (and indeed was able to learn) mysticism in order to affect living things. Because that required a less intellectual and more of an intuitive mindset, many wizardly personality types had problems with it. But that wasn't a class issue like in d20. You could have both sorcery schools and mysticism spheres freely if you had the appropriate abilities. So if you were a "sorceror" and wanted to be able to Polymorph both yourself and your clothing you could do it if you had both the sorcery school of Transmutation and the mystic sphere of Alteration.
The Master, being fundamentally a product of god magic, didn't have those restrictions because he was a thing of High Sorcery.
The WoHS are allowing sorcerers to exist for now, but each order takes a different view on how to approach the sorcerers, and there's still this air of caution.
I honestly do not feel that the WoHS are allowing anyone to do anything at this time. They are not nearly powerful enough to do anything about the sorcerers that are out there right now.
Not to mention how many of the most powerful ones lost there life fighting the sorcerer(cannot recall his name right now) in Wizard's Conclave. Granted he was the most powerful sorcerer on Ansalon at that point, magnified by the Irda Stone, which is a good start, but that does not change the fact that they took heavy loses killing just one sorcerer.
I have always considered High Sorcery better than Primal Sorcery but even taking that into consideration there are still going to be alot of low level WoHS for awhile until they can gain experience. As such they are not going to be in a position to dictate what is right and wrong in terms of magic for a bit
EDIT- They, the WoHS, actually killed two sorcerers in Wizard's Conclave
As far as Ulin either staying a Sorcerer or switching to WoHS depends wholy on how he took his father's teaching to heart. Palin no doubt used the WoHS in his education for all students of the Acadamy. Just like Goldmoon still taught the mystics about the Trus Gods. Teaching them about the old way, as well as the new primal sorcery. But whatever happens to Ulin well that depends on what the aurthers do.
My 2 cents
As far as Ulin either staying a Sorcerer or switching to WoHS depends wholy on how he took his father's teaching to heart. Palin no doubt used the WoHS in his education for all students of the Acadamy. Just like Goldmoon still taught the mystics about the Trus Gods. Teaching them about the old way, as well as the new primal sorcery. But whatever happens to Ulin well that depends on what the aurthers do.
That is consistent with Wizard's Conclave. Jenna introduces several surprisingly young wizards as former students of Palin's Academy. I agree that Palin and many of his colleagues taught quite a bit about High Sorcery, which would in particular have been useful in dealing with magical items from earlier ages.
Another interesting point is that for a while the Master was allowing people who managed to reach the Tower of Wayreth to take the Test. Many of these individuals might feel automatically drawn towards epiphany and switching classes.
Where does it state that the Master of the Tower allowed mages in to take the Test. I dont get that from Wizards Conclave, is there another source for that bit of information?
Everything "5th Age Dragonlance" from the beginning stated this (the 5th Age Boxed Set, Dragons of a New Age, and most importantly The Last Tower: The Legacy of Raistlin). Just because authors choose to ignore it now, doesn't mean it wasn't there.
(Edit: This wasn't a jab or anything, it's just voicing my frustration of my favorite DL gaming product to date being completely thrown out the window.
)The Tower of Wayreth was re-opened though.
That's not the point...it was never closed according to anything until War of Souls came along and retconned it.
Everything "5th Age Dragonlance" from the beginning stated this (the 5th Age Boxed Set, Dragons of a New Age, and most importantly The Last Tower: The Legacy of Raistlin). Just because authors choose to ignore it now, doesn't mean it wasn't there.
(Edit: This wasn't a jab or anything, it's just voicing my frustration of my favorite DL gaming product to date being completely thrown out the window.
It was a bit of nuisance, but as usual you have to do some tap-dancing to make it work.
The Tower having been open for some years would explain the young wizards in Wizard's Conclave. If they were students of Palin's Academy who went to Wayreth to take the Test during the earlier part of the Fifth Age, then it would make sense that when the gods returned they would have switched over to wizardry.
At the time, even the Master had no indicator that the gods would ever return, so he/it would have been more accomodating about the use of sorcery. But he/it still would have wanted to preserve the old ways, hence continuing to offer the Test.
Maybe the Tower closed at some point because Beryl was getting too close?
At the time, even the Master had no indicator that the gods would ever return, so he/it would have been more accomodating about the use of sorcery. But he/it still would have wanted to preserve the old ways, hence continuing to offer the Test.
Exactly. And actually, that was really how it was portratyed in TLT:TLoR. And although the Master was interpreted as using Sorcery and Mysticism...that's one retcon that doesn't bother me (as it makes much more sense...since he's the manifestation of an item that is imbued with Focused Arcane Energy...it'd make sense that that is what his magic actually is: High Sorcery).
Maybe the Tower closed at some point because Beryl was getting too close?
And that makes perfect sense. The problem is that the DLCS states that Palin closed the tower when he disbanded the Conclave...and that was just flat out wrong.
The question is, though, was it a retcon or a mistake? We haven't been informed really one way or another.
The question is, though, was it a retcon or a mistake? We haven't been informed really one way or another.
No, it's a retcon. War of Souls, Wizard's Conclave, the gaming materials, and any future books or products will be assuming that the Tower did not remain open after the Conclave was disbanded, and that Tests weren't carried out there for sorcerers as described in the Last Tower. Some of that boxed set was used heavily as inspiration for Towers of High Sorcery but, just like Wings of Fury (which contains some information that is no longer true), the official continuity has been changed.
Cheers,
Cam
So what if Beryl was getting to close,the Tower cannot be found unless it wants to be found. The Overlords werent that powerful that they could override the magic of the gods of magic.
Even when the gods weren't around to enforce their will?
I agree that all of this is choppy and speculative, but these are the kinds of compromises one has to make when one is stuck with an awareness of what happened during officially published materials that some writers are now trying to pretend were never printed.
Clearly something was involved in those young wizards in Wizard's Conclave. Maybe it was simply that they were Palin's students and his teaching methodology borrowed so much from High Sorcery that they felt called to it when the gods returned even though their training had been in wild magic?
Personally I like the training+Test concept better because it explains the automatic tie to High Sorcery. As a DM I would even consider allowing sorcerors who took the Test in Wayreth to trade in Academy Sorceror levels for Wizard of High Sorcery levels when they trade in their sorceror levels for wizard ones.
No, it's a retcon. Some of that boxed set was used heavily as inspiration for Towers of High Sorcery but, just like Wings of Fury (which contains some information that is no longer true), the official continuity has been changed.
Thanks for the info, Cam! At least now I can stop wondering.
I am surpised that there wasnt more information given on this in the Towers of High Sorcery book. Maybe those sorcerers just received ephanies like the mystics who followed Mishakel did, and converted?
Again, possible since Palin probably pumped them full of teachings about High Sorcery.
This is why it keeps coming up with Ulin. Odds are that most of his tutoring, especially before the Shadow Sorceror introduced wild magic, involved his father talking about High Sorcery and conducting experiments to see if it could be rediscovered.
What's been changed from Wings of Fury?
Khellendros' background for one thing.