That being said, I use the point-buy method for ability score development, and I permit a higher number of points than normal.... I can't remember if it's 30 or 35 points. Mainly because I've significantly restricted magical (and to a lesser extent, psionic) items in my game, and the higher ability scores help compensate for that loss.
With the conversion, do characters in DS still scale higher that the avearge PC in other settings or has this been "normalized"?
In general they scale much the same as other 3.5 characters (maintaining this balance was a design requirement for athas.org's DS3e conversion) but the higher racial ability score adjustments mean that the overall average is a little higher, when all races are compared.
In general they scale much the same as other 3.5 characters (maintaining this balance was a design requirement for athas.org's DS3e conversion) but the higher racial ability score adjustments mean that the overall average is a little higher, when all races are compared.
As far as the individual races go, I am still dissapointed in how half giants were redone for 3.5. Are the two giant species in this setting going to be 16' tall as opposed to the 25' they were before? (Note, I haven't checked the athas.org website yet).
its dose suck that they want to make DS like all the other worlds it cut off so they can have things stronger why f with it
The Dragon magazine releases, just like their corresponding Dungeon magazine releases, are in no way connected to Athas.org's release. Both are technically "official" releases, but the one from Dragon/Dungeon magazines really strayed significantly from the Dark Sun setting. There are a few people who prefer it over the Athas.org setting, while most tend to mainly use the Athas.org setting, with many also taking what little they can from the Dragon/Dungeon conversion.
As far as the individual races go, I am still dissapointed in how half giants were redone for 3.5.
I suggest you check the athas.org HG then, since it's alot better.
If you don't like that one, check out my site in my sig and go to the races section, I have another version of the HG there as well.
Or as the borg would say "we will add that distinctinveness to our own, your conversion will adapt to service our own - resistance is futile"
Joking or not, Athas.org will not be submitting to Paizo's one shot wonder, nor the other way around...
They are both simply just two different, yet both official, conversions.
This has got to be the lamest, most completely reatrded argument brought up over and over again. "Maintaining flavor?" Yeah, whatever. Point buy, higher point allocations. Problem solved if its really such problem. "But Athasians are supposed to be tougher than standard races." Tougher than who? Some tard on Toril that he's never going to come across? This is just too frickin lame and if you really base your setting picks on how 'high' of stats your char has, then I can only hope that I never wind up in a game with you.
And you just went right up there on the Narrow-minded score.
Dark Sun old school was about being a tougher character in a tougher world.
And if the guy you quoted wants to have his game centered on high stats, what's wrong with that? Does it always have to be heavy on role-playing? I thought RPGs were about having fun, no matter what genre or what style you play in.
I hope I never end up in a game with you as the DM...
EVERY THING is on a higher scale to change it is wrong
And you just went right up there on the Narrow-minded score.
Dark Sun old school was about being a tougher character in a tougher world.
And if the guy you quoted wants to have his game centered on high stats, what's wrong with that? Does it always have to be heavy on role-playing? I thought RPGs were about having fun, no matter what genre or what style you play in.
I hope I never end up in a game with you as the DM...
Wow.... someone called Mach2.5 "narrow-minded". This has to be some sort of sign of the apocalypse.
The individual who provided the initial question, wanted to know if it changed. He was answered. DS3 has to follow a very strict set of guidelines on how things work, specifically handed to them by Wizards of the Coast - and as such, one of the things is that the characters must follow the same patterns for character generation as are found in the Player's Handbook. So, as a result, their abilities must follow the standard policy.
Now, since people obviously cannot do math, let's run the probabilty game again.
4d6, drop the lowest:
Well, let's start with 3d6. With a minimum value of 3, and a maximum value of 18. The average (mean) would be 10.5.
Dropping the lowest die, means that most likely, one of the dice will tend to be a range of 4 - 6, rather than 1 - 3. So, adjusting for this, the most probable minimum becomes 5, and the most probably maximum remains 18. The new most probable average adjusts to 11.5.
so, the probabilities for 4d6, drop the lowest die, is a range of 5 - 18, with an average being 11.5 (meaning about an even chance to get a 11 or a 12 on the roll).
4d4 + 4:
Minimum value: 8. Maximum value: 20. Average value: 14. pretty straightforward. Basically, has about a 2 point gain on all three values.
---
Something to note, 4d4 will hit average a little more frequently than 4d6, drop the lowest die.
Also - for the record, characters, while described as having ability scores in the range of 5 - 20 in the books, they really have from 8 - 20, due to what would be the fifth die being permanently set to a value of 4 (4d4 + 4, instead of 4d4).
Now, ability scores scale significantly different in 3E/3.5E - if you don't believe me, then you haven't slooked at and compared the ability score charts from 3E/3.5E to what ability scores meant in 2E. They really don't even mean the same thing. Sure, it's completely feasable to play the game of higher ability scores - but with the proliferation of magical and psionic items in a standard D&D game, this will significantly unbalance your game, and your characters will be more than just merely tougher, they will actually more or less be super-characters. If you are willing to play like that, so be it. My experience is that while initially, this has a lot of appeal to players and can be fun, it also quickly burns out, and people soon find the game boring.
I do run my games with higher ability scores - but I also cut out a lot of the magical and psionic items. They are rare, and in the case of magic items, generally illegal. Psionic items are restricted to below certian power levels. Players have to go through "customs" at city-states, where they are checked for contraband, which at the very least is taken from them (any magical item, and most high-level psionic items), or they somehow bribe the gate Templar, or are somehow able to slip the item past him. At the worst, the character is immediately sent into slavery, or out and out killed for bringing in (or possessing, or leaving with) an item that is too illegal. And sometimes, the Templars also designate other things as illegal, if they covet the item anway.
So, for my games, yes, the characters are "tougher". But, there's much less magic and psionic items in the world, so it counter-balances.
dark sun is not D&D with sand stop trying to make it that way
EVERY THING is on a higher scale to change it is wrong
It has to be changed, Wizards of the Coast requires Athas.org to keep Dark Sun balanced to the D&D rules. So, that's what was done. This also is nothing new, as it has been expressed countless times over the past several years, since Athas.org started their conversion. Welcome to the community.
Wow.... someone called Mach2.5 "narrow-minded". This has to be some sort of sign of the apocalypse.
Especially since he's not.
How do I know? Well, let's see GenCon 2004 comes to mind.
I've met the guy and talked with him extensively then and online.
Mach is ANYTHING BUT, "narrow-minded".
Think before you type. ;)
Think before you type. ;)
Ahem. I quote:
"This has got to be the lamest, most completely reatrded argument"
"This is just too frickin lame and if you really base your setting picks on how 'high' of stats your char has, then I can only hope that I never wind up in a game with you."
I rest my case. :fight!:
I think, therefore I type.
Sorry, I just had to put my word in...
PB ;)
What's wrong with you people? Who cares? Stop arguing for the love of DS. Athas.org have to follow guidelines and that's it. Nothing more. If you'd rather roll d4s instead, well by all means, do. It really doesn't matter to anybody what anybody else does with their game. In the end, it comes to personnal choice and that, my friends, is not something you can argue about, so break it up, will you?
Especially since you can use just about any method of stat generation you please, since the DMG opens for point-buy with different amount of points. It's one of the holes in the balance equation.
Ahem. I quote:
"This has got to be the lamest, most completely reatrded argument"
"This is just too frickin lame and if you really base your setting picks on how 'high' of stats your char has, then I can only hope that I never wind up in a game with you."
I rest my case. :fight!:
I think, therefore I type.
Evidently not.
I agree with Mach.
I've been on this board several years, including the mailing list, and I lost count how many times this discussion comes up.
It has absolutely nothing to do with the power level in DS whether you agree or not.
Let the old, dusty, dead kank rest in peace already, for the love of the elements!
http://www.sederqvist.com/ao/3e
This might be a good time to point to the DS3 Design FAQ. I just updated it.
http://www.sederqvist.com/ao/3e
Decent FAQ.
Now if we can just get it stickied.
Evidently not.
I agree with Mach.
I've been on this board several years, including the mailing list, and I lost count how many times this discussion comes up.
It has absolutely nothing to do with the power level in DS whether you agree or not.
Let the old, dusty, dead kank rest in peace already, for the love of the elements!
Uh... okay... right... sure, sure.
You can be as wrong as you want to, without having to be called lame or anything, that's all I'm defending.
Unless we have been for several years in this forum, I guess we can still bring up arguments that are old for you, but new for us.
It's not the same old kank, its just looks exactly like that one. But it sure seems to have been killed too.
Uh... okay... right... sure, sure.
You can be as wrong as you want to, without having to be called lame or anything, that's all I'm defending.
The moment you ignore or casually disrgard explanations people have given as to why, and don't understand that the game can be done however you want it to, you basically have demonstrated ignorance. That can draw the attention of people who find it more than a little annoying.
Unless we have been for several years in this forum, I guess we can still bring up arguments that are old for you, but new for us.
Hardly, but when a counter-argument is presented, you should deal with the counter-argument, rather that casually disregarding it.
It's not the same old kank, its just looks exactly like that one. But it sure seems to have been killed too.
It is the same old kank. People are constantly coming here asking about ability points, and how to spend them. Then they whine when it's explained that Athas.org has to follow the same rules that are in the PHB, and complain that it somehow destroys the flavor. Further, when people do provide explanations, and how to still keep the "balance" and increase the ability scores, they casually ignore it. And every time, they are told that for their own games, they can do whatever they want. All that people are trying to do is explain the reasons why the ability scores are lower than in 2E. This is possibly either the second, or third most popular topic regularly brought up on this forum.
This is possibly either the second, or third most popular topic regularly brought up on this forum.
Let me take a guess on the first:
"Why don't defilers gain levels more quickly than preservers?"
Probably followed by the usual "But then you destroy the flavour, AD&D was far better than D&D 3.0/3.5 etc."
Let me take a guess on the first:
"Why don't defilers gain levels more quickly than preservers?"
Probably followed by the usual "But then you destroy the flavour, AD&D was far better than D&D 3.0/3.5 etc."
Well, a close second (if not part of the first) is the arguments about Dragons and Avangions. But yea, Defiler & Preserver rules mechanics complaints are definitely at the top of the list - usualy along the lines as you presented.
The moment you ignore or casually disrgard explanations people have given as to why, and don't understand that the game can be done however you want it to, you basically have demonstrated ignorance. That can draw the attention of people who find it more than a little annoying.
Hardly, but when a counter-argument is presented, you should deal with the counter-argument, rather that casually disregarding it.
Yep, just what I have been saying all along. Except for that "hardly", if you used in the sense that new people can't bring up old topics.
It is the same old kank. People are constantly coming here asking about ability points, and how to spend them. Then they whine when it's explained that Athas.org has to follow the same rules that are in the PHB, and complain that it somehow destroys the flavor. Further, when people do provide explanations, and how to still keep the "balance" and increase the ability scores, they casually ignore it. And every time, they are told that for their own games, they can do whatever they want. All that people are trying to do is explain the reasons why the ability scores are lower than in 2E. This is possibly either the second, or third most popular topic regularly brought up on this forum.
Then you should organize a Forum FAQ with your undead kanks and state them as forbidden topics. Those who dare mention it may be exposed to harsh words, such as "lame" "reartrded" or even have their intelligence questioned more then once.
Giving characters higher ability scores makes it easier on the characters. Period. So, everyone who's arguing for higher scores because it reflects the harshess of Athas is committing a nice little falacy: By reflecting the "evolution" of characters as higher ability scores, you're actually making the game easier on those characters. You want a harsh game world? Use an 15-20 point point buy for character generation. that's harsh and brutal.
I am not a long-time member of this board. I joined early this year, heck, I read my first Dark Sun product in December 2003. But even I flinch when someone brings up certain topics -again-.
New members often have the same questions and a right to ask them. Most of these are answered in the Dark Sun FAQ from athas.org (get the ******* thing stickied!).
My problems with these question (and I am just speaking for myself here) is just that often the question is formulated like an attack on the persons who put tremendous work in Dark Sun 3.0/3.5. A popular example would be [dramatized] "When will the nazis from athas.org release Dregoth Ascending from their filthy grip?"
Another thing which bugs me is sometimes the questioners are not happy to do what they want in their campaign. They want also everyone else to do it their (the questioner's) way. Roll up the stats the way you want, fine (I also do not use the standard PHB's way). Let defilers gain levels faster than anyone else. But do not expect that everyone else wants to do it your way. Be happy that you can add all the flavour you seem to be missing in your own campaign.
This was just a comment on "dead old kanks" in general, not against you, Ragi.
[braces himself to be flamed]
A word in peace:
I am not a long-time member of this board. I joined early this year, heck, I read my first Dark Sun product in December 2003. But even I flinch when someone brings up certain topics -again-.
New members often have the same questions and a right to ask them. Most of these are answered in the Dark Sun FAQ from athas.org (get the ******* thing stickied!).
My problems with these question (and I am just speaking for myself here) is just that often the question is formulated like an attack on the persons who put tremendous work in Dark Sun 3.0/3.5. A popular example would be [dramatized] "When will the nazis from athas.org release Dregoth Ascending from their filthy grip?"
Another thing which bugs me is sometimes the questioners are not happy to do what they want in their campaign. They want also everyone else to do it their (the questioner's) way. Roll up the stats the way you want, fine (I also do not use the standard PHB's way). Let defilers gain levels faster than anyone else. But do not expect that everyone else wants to do it your way. Be happy that you can add all the flavour you seem to be missing in your own campaign.
[braces himself to be flamed]
Right on. That sort of problems usually comes up when those munchkins realize the writers they keep complaining about actually read their posts.
They should dismiss them by just quoting a "official Athas.org reply" and nevermind.
This was just a comment on "dead old kanks" in general, not against you, Ragi.
Thank you. Suddenly I'm the bad guy here! :D
Here's the thing about the "Evolution" / "Athasians should be tougher" / "Athas is tougher" argument that I don't get...
Giving characters higher ability scores makes it easier on the characters. Period. So, everyone who's arguing for higher scores because it reflects the harshess of Athas is committing a nice little falacy: By reflecting the "evolution" of characters as higher ability scores, you're actually making the game easier on those characters.
It always seemed a psychological thing for me. Athasians are indeed "tougher" compared to regular AD&D characters. Give a newcomer from Faerun a Half-giant with humongous strength and double hit dice and watch the poor fella go wrestle a Mekillot.
On the other hand, Athas has a tougher environment then your regular setting.
You want a harsh game world? Use an 15-20 point point buy for character generation. that's harsh and brutal.
Nah, who wants to play as a wimp? Keep the Half-giant defiler/psionicist coming...
Yep, just what I have been saying all along. Except for that "hardly", if you used in the sense that new people can't bring up old topics.
Never said that. Of course, I'd hope that common decency would suggest doing a little digging around to at least make the effort to see if the question's already been asked/answered, but, as this was a topic that had slipped from the first page, then I'm not too overly upset about that - at least, this topic wasn't made, and then 8 more just like it magically appeared within the same hour. That usually just sickens me.
Then you should organize a Forum FAQ with your undead kanks and state them as forbidden topics. Those who dare mention it may be exposed to harsh words, such as "lame" "reartrded" or even have their intelligence questioned more then once.
No, really? A Forum FAQ? Wow. so glad you're here to tell us these things. We would have never figured it out on our own.
Now, generally speaking, I do try to not insult people outright for posting a repeated topic. I do get annoyed, and it does increase if I see that the answer to their question is still on the first page of the forum's topic listing. Now, when an aswer has been provided within that topic, and the individual (or another individual for that matter) ignopres the answer, and claims to basically be still waiting for an answer (rather than, as common decency would suggest, point out the problems you have with that answer), then that person has insulted the person who took the time to reply. The only stupid question is the one where you don't listen to the answer.
It always seemed a psychological thing for me. Athasians are indeed "tougher" compared to regular AD&D characters. Give a newcomer from Faerun a Half-giant with humongous strength and double hit dice and watch the poor fella go wrestle a Mekillot.
On the other hand, Athas has a tougher environment then your regular setting.
So, basically, what you want is a setting where the characters have higher ability scores than other worlds, but the rest of the world's creatures (that are encountered), be even higher? Something along the lines of the ratio of making a point-buy character with 15 - 20 points, compared to a regular monster, power wise, but make it closer to a 35 - 40 point character? You want everything scaled up, huh? What's the point then? I mean honestly... let's see if I can help a bit more. Let's say that a group of 4 level 1 characters out of the PHB, vs an Encounter Level of 1, would be a ratio of 1 : 1. What you are looking for is something where it would be more like a ratio of 1 : 1.5 or something - to help show that Athas is tougher. But, at the same time, you want the Athasian character to be, let's say 2x that of a "regular" PHB character (I know it's not, but the numbers are easier to manage this way). You are aware that a ratio of 1 : 1.5 is exactly the same thing as a ratio of 2 : 3, right? The only reason you apparently are scaling it up then, is just so then you can compare an Athasian character with a character from, let's say, Greyhawk. So, I ask you, why? Are you planning on some massive campaign where you somehow have people breaking the barriers around Athas and invading from one world to the other (or vice versa)? If not, then all you are doing, is making the mechanics be even harder for you to work with - as bigger numbers generally are a bit more complex for people to handle than smaller numbers.
Nah, who wants to play as a wimp? Keep the Half-giant defiler/psionicist coming...
Well, for one, I have. I've played a number of characters with various limitations. It's actually a lot of fun to play a challenging character. It's a shame you apparently don't know the joy of making a character who overcomes such adversity.
Edit: Now, once again, if you want to use a higher ability score generation method for your games, nobody's stopping you. We told you what Athas.org were mandated to follow - and that doesn't mean that what they did in any way affected the flavor of the setting. Apparently, it affected your perception of said flavor, but if you study their materials, then you'd see tha the flavor remains - the harsh, adverse, and hostile world is still there. The high chance for character death tolls remain. It's just that it's being handled in a different manner. Characters in 3/3.5E games tend to be more powerful anyway than 2E characters, as magic/psionic items are a lot more proliferate, and even expected at certian levels, when calculating what power-level of an encounter a group can handle, and thus is part of the CR system - if, like I do, you want characters to not necessarily become total wimps, yet wish to limit/restrict magic/psionic items, then a good counterbalance is to allow for higher ability scores. However, if you just like hack & lash, high-slaughter, constant action games where the group tackes one encounter after another over and over again (which does have it's fun points, don't get me wrong), and don't mind high-powered characters, then leave both the magic/psionic items in the campaign as they are, and also allow for higher ability scores.
No, really? A Forum FAQ? Wow. so glad you're here to tell us these things. We would have never figured it out on our own.
Not a problem. I'm glad I could help you!
Now, generally speaking, I do try to not insult people outright for posting a repeated topic. I do get annoyed, and it does increase if I see that the answer to their question is still on the first page of the forum's topic listing. Now, when an aswer has been provided within that topic, and the individual (or another individual for that matter) ignopres the answer, and claims to basically be still waiting for an answer (rather than, as common decency would suggest, point out the problems you have with that answer), then that person has insulted the person who took the time to reply. The only stupid question is the one where you don't listen to the answer.
I'm not even going to discuss what is a stupid question. Nah. Pointless.
I didn't bother with the original question. I saw it answered on Athas.org and previously on this very forum. I'm amazed anybody did bother with it.
The problem that originated my argument was an answer.
So, basically, what you want is a setting where the characters have higher ability scores than other worlds, but the rest of the world's creatures (that are encountered), be even higher? Something along the lines of the ratio of making a point-buy character with 15 - 20 points, compared to a regular monster, power wise, but make it closer to a 35 - 40 point character? You want everything scaled up, huh? What's the point then? I mean honestly... let's see if I can help a bit more. Let's say that a group of 4 level 1 characters out of the PHB, vs an Encounter Level of 1, would be a ratio of 1 : 1. What you are looking for is something where it would be more like a ratio of 1 : 1.5 or something - to help show that Athas is tougher. But, at the same time, you want the Athasian character to be, let's say 2x that of a "regular" PHB character (I know it's not, but the numbers are easier to manage this way). You are aware that a ratio of 1 : 1.5 is exactly the same thing as a ratio of 2 : 3, right? The only reason you apparently are scaling it up then, is just so then you can compare an Athasian character with a character from, let's say, Greyhawk. So, I ask you, why? Are you planning on some massive campaign where you somehow have people breaking the barriers around Athas and invading from one world to the other (or vice versa)? If not, then all you are doing, is making the mechanics be even harder for you to work with - as bigger numbers generally are a bit more complex for people to handle than smaller numbers.
Who? Me? Dude! I am a DM, I don't care for stats at all!
And let me point to you the use of the word "seemed" and the therm "AD&D".
Well, for one, I have. I've played a number of characters with various limitations. It's actually a lot of fun to play a challenging character. It's a shame you apparently don't know the joy of making a character who overcomes such adversity.
I am sorry, I should have used tools such as the smilies or yours "/sarcasm" thing. It was a joke. I thought it was obvious, but... my bad. To make up for it: :D
Edit: Now, once again, if you want to use a higher ability score generation method for your games, nobody's stopping you. We told you what Athas.org were mandated to follow - and that doesn't mean that what they did in any way affected the flavor of the setting. Apparently, it affected your perception of said flavor, but if you study their materials, then you'd see tha the flavor remains - the harsh, adverse, and hostile world is still there. The high chance for character death tolls remain. It's just that it's being handled in a different manner. Characters in 3/3.5E games tend to be more powerful anyway than 2E characters, as magic/psionic items are a lot more proliferate, and even expected at certian levels, when calculating what power-level of an encounter a group can handle, and thus is part of the CR system - if, like I do, you want characters to not necessarily become total wimps, yet wish to limit/restrict magic/psionic items, then a good counterbalance is to allow for higher ability scores. However, if you just like hack & lash, high-slaughter, constant action games where the group tackes one encounter after another over and over again (which does have it's fun points, don't get me wrong), and don't mind high-powered characters, then leave both the magic/psionic items in the campaign as they are, and also allow for higher ability scores.
You told me? I never asked or complained about Athas.org rules! You have one short memory, dude. You should re-read this discussion before releasing the dogs on me.
Here's the thing about the "Evolution" / "Athasians should be tougher" / "Athas is tougher" argument that I don't get...
Giving characters higher ability scores makes it easier on the characters. Period. So, everyone who's arguing for higher scores because it reflects the harshess of Athas is committing a nice little falacy: By reflecting the "evolution" of characters as higher ability scores, you're actually making the game easier on those characters. You want a harsh game world? Use an 15-20 point point buy for character generation. that's harsh and brutal.
Ahmen.
Let me hear you chorus in agreement my brothers!
Ahmen.
Let me hear you chorus in agreement my brothers!
Absolutely!
But I would like to add that I agree with ''The Ragi-Dude'' ;) on a point: ''retarded'' and ''lame'' did resemble a subjective attack towards someone. Be more objective guys (from ''both sides''), hold your horses, slack your shorts, play nice, kiss and make up, etc. I probably sound like an old woman, but I honestly believe in what I say (and I'm neither old (relatively speaking, I'd be dead if I were a Thri-Kreen) nor am I a woman).
Thanks for reading.
PB
Nah, who wants to play as a wimp? Keep the Half-giant defiler/psionicist coming...
Reminds me of my last character, a *commoner* rolled up with 3d6 flat and the following stats: Str 5, Dex 4, Con 9, Int 5, Wis 14, Cha 17. In other words a lovable oaf.
nor am I a woman).
Damn, I was hoping...
:D
Damn, I was hoping...
:D
Eek, do I sound womanish!!? :OMG!
Eek, do I sound womanish!!? :OMG!
Nope.
Just being my usual silly self. :D
And you just went right up there on the Narrow-minded score.
WOOT! Thats just wonderful! I got zinged, albeit, a very poor zing, but a zing none-the-less.
Actually, flip the phrase about. Narrow-minded is exactly how I see the opposite side of the arguement.
Dark Sun old school was about being a tougher character in a tougher world.
BingO!!! Hit the nail on the head again by simply repeating this to yourself, over, and over, and over. Seriously. Because its is absolutely fundamentally important to understand that exact phrase before you attempt to understand what I'm about to ask: tougher than what?
Answer that for yourself. Tougher than what? What does it mean to be a tougher character in a tougher world? There are no 'normal' (read: core standard) humans and elves around to compare with, so, saying that the characters have to be tougher than core rules is an entirely moot point. So then, once again, what makes it a tougher world? THE DM! *gasp*. Its the encounters that define whats tough. Beef up your encounters in your games, don't pull punches with your players, use intelligent tactics, min-max your arse off with your own NPCs to take advantage of the rules, do every friggin thing to make it tough on your players. By increasing the power level of your characters, all you do is make things easier on your players to survive, which goes entirely against what Athas is about. The first part of the stament: tougher characters in a tougher world, means you need a basis for comparison, for which there isn't one within the setting itself. So the first part is self defeating, hence why you then turn around and focus on the second. Just supporting Flip on this by reiterating it.
Narrow minded. I like that. Think before you speak? Take it to heart there bucko.
a tougher character in a tougher world? There are no 'normal' (read: core standard) humans and elves around to compare with, so, saying that the characters have to be tougher than core rules is an entirely moot point. So then, once again, what makes it a tougher world? THE DM! *gasp*. Its the encounters that define whats tough. Beef up your encounters in your games, don't pull punches with your players, use intelligent tactics, min-max your arse off with your own NPCs to take advantage of the rules, do every friggin thing to make it tough on your players. By increasing the power level of your characters, all you do is make things easier on your players to survive, which goes entirely against what Athas is about. The first part of the stament: tougher characters in a tougher world, means you need a basis for comparison, for which there isn't one within the setting itself. So the first part is self defeating, hence why you then turn around and focus on the second. Just supporting Flip on this by reiterating it.
Narrow minded. I like that. Think before you speak? Take it to heart there bucko.
There is one its called all other game setings. Think about that i realy hate how to be harder is to make the players wimps DS has a lot of rules that dont fit the CL thing of 3ed like a big thing called H2O in no other game to you care about it but hay i am narrow minded as i think is better to up the CL of char if you have to to give them the old game we know and love not some dam grayhalk on the sand
There is one its called all other game setings. Think about that i realy hate how to be harder is to make the players wimps DS has a lot of rules that dont fit the CL thing of 3ed like a big thing called H2O in no other game to you care about it but hay i am narrow minded as i think is better to up the CL of char if you have to to give them the old game we know and love not some dam grayhalk on the sand
Umm.... dude, you really can't compare DS to other settings, officially, because Dark Sun is, well, cut off and such. Read Defilers & Preservers sometime. Spells it out pretty darned well. Now, there are those who are opposed to this, yes... and there are other books that claim something different as well, true.
Dark Sun's lack of water doesn't affect CR, CL, ECL, LA, EL, or any of the other alphabet soup at all. Your point then is invalidated again, as there is no evidence in the rules that such things are affected - people can run a campaign in a desert in another world. Hell, water's not even overly expensive on Athas - just limited. And people who live in a desert, know the multitudes of other ways to get their water requirements (like, umm... cactus, from other animals, etc).
The fact of the matter is - you are attempting to make the claim that Dark Sun is tougher, and yet want the characters to be more powerful. This is not tougher, it is easier. If you want to compare Dark Sun to another setting, then that's *all you*. Ideas have been listed as to how to do it. However, Dark Sun, like all other WotC-sanctioned settings, must be balanced to the 3.5e core rulebooks. Period. There is no changing this, unless Athas.org wants to take their official status, and flush it down the drain. Continuing your argument at this point has become an excersize in futility, as there have been options provided, and you refuse to acknowledge them.
There is one its called all other game setings. Think about that i realy hate how to be harder is to make the players wimps DS has a lot of rules that dont fit the CL thing of 3ed like a big thing called H2O in no other game to you care about it but hay i am narrow minded as i think is better to up the CL of char if you have to to give them the old game we know and love not some dam grayhalk on the sand
You know, there is such a thing as punctuation.
Why don't you try using it.
;)
You know, there is such a thing as punctuation.
Why don't you try using it.
;)
At least he wasn't being 133+...:D
At least he wasn't being 133+...:D
That would bring on all sorts of abuse.
as full of bull as those that clame that haflings shoud be defilers.
I never been a fan of the new 3ed rules its all baced on skills and powers and the like that are to me are min/maxing power gameing. What i wish is more just stayed with 2ed rule set. Many rather cater to WotC who to me are the Microsoft of gameing
The seting scaled up not just the chars yes the chars are higher up but the world as a hole was even more so. Higher stats helped deal with the harder rules and helped draw pl to play a game were the good guys are seen as the ones to hunt buy the powers that be. Yet the players had true hero stats that was part of the draw to the game.
PS i am dislexic so i do the best i can
as full of bull as those that clame that haflings shoud be defilers.
According to 3e rules, all races can be any class, just means there might be some rare combinations out there. If you like 2e so much, then stick with it, no one is forcing you to change.
I never been a fan of the new 3ed rules its all baced on skills and powers and the like that are to me are min/maxing power gameing.
Skills and powers has nothing to do with 3rd edition. Trust me, I liked skills and powers so much I tried to combine it with other rules from 2e, clean it up some, and tried to create a whole new version of the game.
Now, there are a few similarities, but you can't really compare the two.
The seting scaled up not just the chars yes the chars are higher up but the world as a hole was even more so. Higher stats helped deal with the harder rules and helped draw pl to play a game were the good guys are seen as the ones to hunt buy the powers that be. Yet the players had true hero stats that was part of the draw to the game.
This is a moot argument at this point and is just being further buried into the ground.
If you want to have your PCs have super stats, by all means do it, but don't turn around and argue that the flavor of Athas is lost when no one else does this, or the current rules set doesn't follow this extreme. I'm sorry, but high ability scores have nothing to do with flavor of a campaign setting.
As far as being tough, my PCs could have all 18s in their ability scores, I can still throw a monster at them that would still give them a run for their money and challenge them, just like I can when their stats are all 3s.
It really doesn't matter anyway you slice it.
PS i am dislexic so i do the best i can
Sorry to hear.
PS i am dislexic so i do the best i can
Me too actually. It just takes time and patience, and the ability to proof-read what you write before posting.
All you have to do is casually glance at the Alternity system to see the similiarities. Ranks in skills, max ranks and Achievements (equivlaent to feats but no where near as many). Just reverse the die rolls - Alternity low was good, 3.0 high is good.
Alternity was also the last "new" product issued prior to 3.0.
Another reason to keep the ability generation rules consistent is to maintain the usability of the CR/EL/exp tables in the DMG. Higher stats means a LA (or equivalent LA) which needs to be accounted for when calculating EL. This is most likely the reason that the Dungeon version had a LA for most all of the races (to account for things like ability adjustments and other benefits that made the characters a hgher equivalent level).
athas was designed to be harsher. so harsh that in the normal rounds ad&d characters would not stand a chance if it was played to its brutal ends. you could theoretically pursue this in any campaign setting, athas was designed to these ends. the weak do not exist, and what consists of the weak are, and should, be capable of handling themselves. thats why kobolds vanished first ;) the higher stats thing was about portraying epic in a scenario that specifically deterred it, in desolation and survival (re: character trees)...but the options were to either face the threat of ungodly entities, or play merchant house and slave tribe for the entire campaign. tougher players for tougher monsters, i say! challenge is a natural element, and the DS designers wanted to stress the challenge and its effect on characters and creatures in the world.
i don't know how else i would have survived with nothing but those damn bone spears... i suppose it goes more to the flavor of athas.Umm.... right. I'm outta this one. Seems the argument's still going in circles. Anyone else wanna try to explain it?
Nope, I think we explained it pretty well for them.
Not our fault if they don't want to listen.
Characters start with the worst equipment imaginable. Athas is poor. Any weapons are either the less effective unique athasian variety (lower damage but no attack penalty) or the equivelent (sp?) of a -1 cursed weapon. After a while, a stingy DM like me can start letting a trickle of metal weapons in (mostly daggers to start), until they are very well off and all have metal weapons: like most D&D parties at the start of their first adventure. By the time they reach eighth or ninth level, they may even see a longsword +1!
The same should apply to all types of magic/psionic/lifeshaped items. Athas is poor. A preserver with a wand of web and bracers of armour +1 is a well off preserver indeed. Hell, a preserver with spell components should consider herself well off.
As has been mentioned elsewhere, high ability scores benefit characters at early levels with the advantage lessening as experience increases. This meshes perfectly with the delayed item aquisition i have suggested.
My _opinion_ is with the higher stats. I am not going to suggest any way of determining them, but heres why i favour them:
Characters start with the worst equipment imaginable. Athas is poor. Any weapons are either the less effective unique athasian variety (lower damage but no attack penalty) or the equivelent (sp?) of a -1 cursed weapon.
Have you read the Athas.org materials? If so, this wouldn't even remotely be an issue, because you would see that there are a LOT of weapons for Dark Sun that are rather good quality, and do not have that penalty.
After a while, a stingy DM like me can start letting a trickle of metal weapons in (mostly daggers to start), until they are very well off and all have metal weapons: like most D&D parties at the start of their first adventure. By the time they reach eighth or ninth level, they may even see a longsword +1!
The same should apply to all types of magic/psionic/lifeshaped items. Athas is poor.
Once again, when defining things for 3/3.5e, make sure you understand what you are saying. Athas.org has done this in a dirrerent way than you are preeposing it's done. I'd suggest you re-read it, and learn.
A preserver with a wand of web and bracers of armour +1 is a well off preserver indeed. Hell, a preserver with spell components should consider herself well off.
As has been mentioned elsewhere, high ability scores benefit characters at early levels with the advantage lessening as experience increases. This meshes perfectly with the delayed item aquisition i have suggested.
High Ability scores, in a 3/3.5E system, do much more than that. They provide advantages every level, and it's hardly something that lessens with experience increases. Especially considering that characters get an ability score increase every 4 levels. I'd suggest rereading the 3.5E core rulebooks, if you disagree here, because obviously, you've missed out on the fundamentals.
there are a LOT of weapons for Dark Sun that are rather good quality, and do not have that penalty.
I have, yes, and there have been good native weapons since before the revised boxed set. I'm not sure about the thanak, though: a toothed weapon that does as much damage as a greatsword?
I provide few magic athasian weapons of any power - powerful magic weapons are mostly relics from the green age as far as I'm concerned, for flavour reasons more than plot.
Athas.org has done this in a dirrerent way than you are preeposing it's done. I'd suggest you re-read it, and learn.
I didn't realise athas.org had any equipment distribution guidelines. As far as I could tell, they seemed to be suggesting people use the DMG equipment allocation method (and tables!), which is a little OOC for Dark Sun. The PCs will end up walking around like Faerun adventurers with magic weapon golf bags ("caddie, what do you suggest for a Dire Phrenic Jhakar?").
High Ability scores, in a 3/3.5E system, do much more than that. They provide advantages every level, and it's hardly something that lessens with experience increases. Especially considering that characters get an ability score increase every 4 levels. I'd suggest rereading the 3.5E core rulebooks, if you disagree here, because obviously, you've missed out on the fundamentals.
The advantages provided do not lessen: they stay exactly the same. The benefit of those advantages diminishes as players progress in levels (excepting Constitution): a wisdom of 15 doubles a first level clerics Will save bonus, but only provides a quarter of the bonus by ninth. It is also sufficient for the character to cast ninth level spells (four bonus points by 17th level). Sorry to digress.
CRs are evaluated against a party with 'typical' magic items and the bonus stat points. Rather than adjusting the entire CR curve to reflect item poor characters, it's easier to give the characters (and humanoid encounters) a boost to offset equipment poverty. +2 Strength nuetralizes inferior material penalties.
And if you think the fundamentals of game design are between the covers of the 3.5 core rulebooks, i suggest you reread them.
I have, yes, and there have been good native weapons since before the revised boxed set. I'm not sure about the thanak, though: a toothed weapon that does as much damage as a greatsword?
I provide few magic athasian weapons of any power - powerful magic weapons are mostly relics from the green age as far as I'm concerned, for flavour reasons more than plot.
Why not the same damage? Doesn't have the same hardness and hit points of a metal greatsword, but can very well to the same damage.
I didn't realise athas.org had any equipment distribution guidelines. As far as I could tell, they seemed to be suggesting people use the DMG equipment allocation method (and tables!), which is a little OOC for Dark Sun. The PCs will end up walking around like Faerun adventurers with magic weapon golf bags ("caddie, what do you suggest for a Dire Phrenic Jhakar?").
Then, take the suggestion I have, or that Nytcrawlr did. Restrict magic items, and provide higher ability scores for characters to counterbalance it. Don't merely give higher ability scores, unless you want obnoxiouslt overpowered characters. In other words - complete the thought, don't just state half.
The advantages provided do not lessen: they stay exactly the same. The benefit of those advantages diminishes as players progress in levels (excepting Constitution): a wisdom of 15 doubles a first level clerics Will save bonus, but only provides a quarter of the bonus by ninth. It is also sufficient for the character to cast ninth level spells (four bonus points by 17th level). Sorry to digress.
Ok, I see where you are coming here. Kind of a backwards view about it, but I guess it works.
CRs are evaluated against a party with 'typical' magic items and the bonus stat points. Rather than adjusting the entire CR curve to reflect item poor characters, it's easier to give the characters (and humanoid encounters) a boost to offset equipment poverty. +2 Strength nuetralizes inferior material penalties.
But if the weapon does not have inferior material penalties to begin with, if you use the Athasian weapons provided by Athas.org, then... The inferior material penalties apply to normal metal PHB weapons being made with Athasian materials. I generally make them rare, because they are, well, inferior and all. But, if you want your group to be running around with wooden broadswords and obsidian scythes, so be it.
do whatever makes you, and your group happy, if you think you need high scores, go for it, if you think athasian equipment sucks, fix it, if you think tembo are wusses, introduce psionic kangaroo's and hairy-nosed wombats, whatever works. :bounce: :invasion:Hmm... Darksun V4.0 - based on Cyberpunk rules, with a system loosley based of bio-e for generating 'new' races....
one thing that got me as part of the fun was the weaker weapons now the athen made weapons do they still brake?
As per the Athas.org rules, the weapons have lower hit points and hardness, so through the normal 3.5e mechanics for breaking weapons (Sundering), they break easier. If you want more than that, then you have to come up with some mechanic for yourself, because it doesn't mesh with the 3.5e rules mechanics Athas.org has to adhere to.
one thing that got me as part of the fun was the weaker weapons now the athen made weapons do they still brake?
If you mean the full damage = 1/20 breakage rule, then the answer is no.
Unless I'm the DM, in which case it's still yes.
After a while, a stingy DM like me can start letting a trickle of metal weapons in (mostly daggers to start), until they are very well off and all have metal weapons: like most D&D parties at the start of their first adventure. By the time they reach eighth or ninth level, they may even see a longsword +1!
And this is fine, if you want to play a game that's equipment restricted, but there's another aspect of things to keep in mind: It's relatively simple -- encouraged, in fact -- to create your own magic items in 3e. Your hypothetical wizard would, under core rules, be easily able to make that wand of web, at 5th level. The bracers too. Now, granted, it might be expensive for him to make them ... but then,, he'd also be able to make quite a bit of money selling them ...
And, the point that a lot of people miss in this disucssion: Athas is indeed a low-arcane-magic world. However, clerical magic is only mildly persecuted by the powers-that-be, and not at all by the populace at large. And, of course, Athas is very, very definately a high-psionic world ... and in 3e, magic/psionic weapons are treated similarly ... all it requires is a tweak to the treasure tables, replacing many
items with psionic equivalants.