Do WoHS have mental problems?

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

archmage

Oct 08, 2004 13:16:13
Reading through Chronicles and Legends, I've often noticed that Raistlin and Dalamar say stuff to the effect that, "I would sacrifice anything and everything for the magic!" "The magic is both lover and child." "Magic is the only thing that ever made me happy." "Magic is all there is."
But now, step back, and really think about those statements, and keep in mind the kind of people Raistlin and Dalamar are. Think about those words, and apply a little reality check to them.
Is the art of mumbling incantations, waving your arms in mystic passes, and keeping small bags of sand, rose petals, and dead insects really the most fulfilling thing you can think to do in your life? Is it so wonderful that you can never know happiness in the arms of a lover, or the laughter of a child?
Poring over musty tomes and crumbling scrolls doesn't really seem like much a life to me, no matter what the wondrous things magic can help you do. You can't conjure love, for one thing. You can't conjure contentment within yourself, can you?
I guess it just seems to me that Raistlin and Dalamar have severe social and mental problems. Addiction to magic? Seems more like an infantile attraction/need towards an inanimate force or object, to me. A psychologist in the real world would look at Raistlin and sorrowfully shake his head. And he hasn't even touched on Raistlin's childhood yet!
So, I guess my question is, do wizards have to have something fundamentally wrong with their heads if they pursue magic to the exclusion of all else? Can magic really be something that can define and fulfill someone's life?
My answer to the second question would seem to be no. I mean, I'm a Wiccan myself, and Wicca is a religion that requires the belief in magic, but not the practice of it. I have yet to meet a single Wiccan who would claim, "Magic is my life! I don't give a crap about anything or anyone but magic!"
Thoughts? Opinions? Comments?
#2

rooks

Oct 08, 2004 13:25:59
LOL!

Well, of course they're psychos! Look at it this way:

Raistlin was totally OCD about anyone touching his pouches, obssessed over magic, completely strung out on casting spells, wanted to take over the world, kill the Gods, rule the Universe, and had some really bad mojo with women.

He's a nutbag! The guy was a violent, obssessive-compulsive, magic-addicted, power-crazed, delusional, megalomaniac with possible female-fear projection!

And he could have used a Viagra, maybe. I'm just saying is all.
#3

Mortepierre

Oct 08, 2004 13:26:24
No one inhabiting the "real world" will ever be able to understand how addictive, attractive or fascinating magic is. Why? Because when a Wiccan waves his hands, nothing happens.

When Raistlin, Dalamar, Palin, etc.. wave their hands fireballs explode, creatures are summoned screaming from the Abyss, and wonders become reality.

How could we possibly judge what effect that could have on a human (or another race's) mind?
#4

sephzero

Oct 08, 2004 13:38:16
It is also part of the manner by which WoHS are indoctrinated into the practice of using their magic. Much it is based on similar principal to the clerics, they are taught to hold the upper most respect and dedication to the pursuit and safety of the arcane magic. Other allegiences are acceptable as long as they don't overshadow's one first loyalty to magic. They are expected to make personal sacrifices in order to have the right to use such power and they take it quite seriously. So to many people it does sound quite odd and deranged.
#5

Nived

Oct 08, 2004 13:43:35
Magic in Dragonlance (godly magic nor primal) is described as giving the user a feeling of euphoria while casting. In this I imagine it is very much like a drug.

I mean seriously. The users feel good while they're doing it, then are physically ravaged afterward. Raistlin has all the qualities of a strung out crackhead, jonesing for a fix. And he's willing to do anything, up to and including killing his family for it.

After the Chaos War there are a few passages in various novels that talk about mages killing themselves because they can't deal with life without the magic. Sounds like withdrawls.

Even Palin (a white robe) puts it above his family.

Now I don't want to get into a theological discussion about your beliefs, but I think we can assume that the Magic in Dragonlance and the Magic in your belief system are quite different things even if the same word is used for them.

Magic in Dragonlance is addicting. And like all addicts the Wizards have problems, some deal with it better than others.
#6

zombiegleemax

Oct 08, 2004 13:54:40
Understand that the wielding of magic is not just an abstract process where you do something and then something else happens as a result.

A wizard can feel the energy flowing through their body when they wield the magic. It is an ecstatic experience as potent as that of a sexual release.

This is not really all that different than the passion artists experience for creating art or athletes experience pushing their physical limits. Indeed, the experience is perhaps even more intense.

Moving beyond that, magic offers the power to have an enormous impact on the world. A wizard wielding the correct spells can perform acts of creation or destruction in a short time that would take months or years for people employing simple physical labor.

So given the ecstatic experience of wielding magic and the incredible effects that can come out of that experience, it is hardly surprising that wizards often feel very passionately about it.

I mean come on, in the real world there are people that feel the same way about their careers, their hobbies, the religion and such. Why not magic?
#7

Charles_Phipps

Oct 08, 2004 14:19:15
While the value of "changing the words" is questionable (the context is always different when you do so) you could have this...

"I would sacrifice anything for SCIENCE!"

"SCIENCE is both my lover and my child!"

"SCIENCE is the only thing that has ever made me happy!"

The fact is that Raistlin and Dalamar are both magicial enthusiasts. Beyond the whole attempts to liken it to a drug in their systems, they are scholars and intellectuals whom have become devoted to expanding their understanding of the world as well as pushing the limits of scientiffic/arcane understanding as a whole.

Raistlin and Dalamar are both individuals whom also are outcasts and the proverbial "geek" that have no social life outside of their particular field. While many wizards of high sorcery are like real tech geeks, engineers, and scientists with wives, children, and lives outside of their fields of study...Dalamar and Raistlin are the archetypical geniuses whom have abandoned their social lives for pure research and applied theory.

Given the fact that Raistlin and Dalamar also recieve power in a direct manner than the average technologist would ever get, I'd say they are far from crazy.
#8

zombiegleemax

Oct 08, 2004 14:34:54
It's hard to relate to this, because to a player magic is simply declaring that they're going to cast a spell and rolling some dice. It feels a little dry and abstract.

But part of role-playing involves imagining a radically different experience. For example, consider the rush of adrenaline as a barbarian rages. The thrill a rogue feels scaling the side of a tower. The spiritual communion a cleric feels when their god imparts their spells into her mind.

Adventurers as a group tend to be "action junkies". Caramon had real problems coping with sedate village life after the urgency of the War of the Lance was over. He felt lost because there was nobody that had a desperate need for his help, and even being married to a beautiful and caring woman wasn't enough to help him past that.

Raistlin, as a wizard, feels a kind of physical rapture every time he casts a spell. Is his life therefore empty simply because he has no lover? Or is he like one of countless people who derive more satisfaction from their vocation?

The wizards simply feel it more because of the intensity of the experience of the magic.
#9

Charles_Phipps

Oct 08, 2004 14:41:36
Just as a note,

Personally it's not the magic per say but the obsession/devotion they feel with pursuit of the divine. I personally have always felt Raistlin was Lunitari's lover...either post death or before it. Nuitari was as close to Raitslin as a brother even if said dark wizard was closer to Raistlin.

The difference between science and religion in magic is a different one but clearly Raistlin felt both there.

I myself am a Christian mystic and for a while lost my head in fundamentalism before going through it to my current belief structure.
#10

zombiegleemax

Oct 08, 2004 14:47:31
Hey, there a plenty of missionaries that are so fervent about spreading their faith that they eagerly take their wives and children on hazardous trips to dangerous places to work at spreading their faith. Isn't that putting something "inanimate" (their faith) ahead of practical concerns and human relationships? They would say it's worth it.

Raistlin would say (and did as I recall) that he derived more pleasure from the magic than he ever felt in an encounter with a woman.
#11

iltharanos

Oct 08, 2004 18:10:53
Raistlin and Dalamar are both individuals whom also are outcasts and the proverbial "geek" that have no social life outside of their particular field... Dalamar and Raistlin are the archetypical geniuses whom have abandoned their social lives for pure research and applied theory.

I must disagree with this assessment of Dalamar, for the simple reason that Mr. Dark got it on with both Kitiara and Jenna ;) , the former being a brief affair and the latter lasting some years. So though Dalamar is by no means a lady's man, he still wasn't some closeted virgin like Raistlin (unless you give credence to that whole Raistlin's daughter legend).

As for Wizards of High Sorcery and mental problems, like some have said, it depends on the individual. Raist and Dalamar are both addicted to magic, and suffer withdrawals much as anyone else when that source of addiction is removed. I wouldn't even liken magic to any one real-world analogy (e.g. drugs, sex, science) simply because it's not necessary. One can be addicted to just about anything, even to things that may seem innocuous at worst (e.g. exercise). So it's not necessarily that all Wizards of High Sorcery are mental, it's the simple fact that like any other user, they can become addicted to that which they use ... it just so happens that their addiction is with magic rather than ... cleanliness.
#12

Dragonhelm

Oct 08, 2004 19:29:07
Magic in Dragonlance (godly magic nor primal) is described as giving the user a feeling of euphoria while casting. In this I imagine it is very much like a drug.

I would agree, although I think godly magic is far more "addictive". Take a look at the various sorcerers and mystics who were once wizards and clerics. There's often a common theme, where they find they're decent with the new magic, but it doesn't convey that euphoric feeling that came with the magic of the gods.

I wouldn't say that magic-users are "geeks", as they come from all walks of life. However, I would say that it is something that can consume you, as do many things in life that you dedicate yourself to. Workaholics, for example.

Dabblers won't go too far with magic, but those who become WoHS must fully dedicate themselves to the magic. In order to gain greater power and understanding of magic, you have to give your all. That is the price one must pay.
#13

quentingeorge

Oct 08, 2004 20:54:18
Raistlin is in fact about the only wizard we've heard of who didn't get it on with opposite sex.

Observe:

Par-Salian - Ladonna
Justiarius - whoever the hell Jenna's mother is
Dalamar - Kitiara, Jenna
Palin - Usha, (possibly Jenna as well?)
Coryn - by the looks of her profile on wizards.com, she did the dirty several times
#14

Charles_Phipps

Oct 08, 2004 21:16:41
I said most wizards have normal lives outside their magic.

I don't think Dalamar does, as a great number of my former players illustrate...you can be fanatically devoted to the game but still occasionally get lucky outside of your crits.

Dalamar is smooth but then so are many techs.

Let alone I point out Kitiara is a special case and Jenna shared his obsession to her own degree.
#15

zombiegleemax

Oct 08, 2004 23:21:23
Actually, I think it is in Legends, Raistlin recollects an unsatisfying encounter with one of Caramon's girlfriends that decided to try the other brother out for some variety. Clearly she ruined him for other women.
#16

Charles_Phipps

Oct 08, 2004 23:45:00
He and Crysania are soul-mates.

Raistlin's main problem is not the fact he's got TB, not even the fact that his heart is completely empty. It's largely the fact he's almost no experience with female peer relations on anything remotely resembling his level.

Oddly enough, Kitiara is the only female that might remotely approach Raistlin's intellect level (and I do mean remotely) in his developing life and there's way too much of Freud in thinking on that since she practically raised him.

Part of Raistlin's hatred for Crysania wasn't just his body's lust for her but his increasing respect for her I think. She was supposed to be a blind zealot to Raistlin but gradually he realized she was intelligent and aware beyond herself.

"I dreamed of her" is the most beautiful line in the entire series to me personally.

Raistlin might have been saved far earlier had he opened himself up to her.
#17

zombiegleemax

Oct 09, 2004 0:08:13
And businesspeople often neglect their spouses and family in favor of their careers. It's an old story that doesn't even require magic.

Raistlin might have been saved if he could have gotten over his resentment towards his brother, if he'd chosen to open himself up to his attraction to Crysania, if he'd been more willing to express the charitable side of his nature that certainly existed...

Now it is true that the WoHS tend to put the magic first in their lives. It's what they're supposed to do. Some do have relationships, often with each other as was the case for Dalamar and Jenna or Par-Salian and Ladonna. Obviously Justarius managed to produce a child. So it's not that wizards are celibate ascetics.

Consider what it is like to be a Knight of Solamnia. Courtly romance aside, with as many duties as they have and the fact that until very recently women were not admitted into their ranks, they probably epitomized people who "put work first" and while they may have had spouses, they probably put their relationships on hold regularly when duty called.
#18

quentingeorge

Oct 09, 2004 2:33:13
Oh, I agree. It's significant that every wizard's relationship we've seen so far seems to have failed in some way.

It's largely the fact he's almost no experience with female peer relations on anything remotely resembling his level.

Wasn't he the closest to his mother?

Consider what it is like to be a Knight of Solamnia. Courtly romance aside, with as many duties as they have and the fact that until very recently women were not admitted into their ranks, they probably epitomized people who "put work first" and while they may have had spouses, they probably put their relationships on hold regularly when duty called.

I've always wondered what the attitude of male Solamnic knights to the females is, seeing as how its only recently they've been able to get past the "glass ceiling". I think Linsha is the first female Solamnic Knight, isn't she?
#19

Charles_Phipps

Oct 09, 2004 3:05:43
Wasn't he the closest to his mother?

Closest is probably best summarized by The Soulforge as being there for her and understanding the hell she was going through with her visions. Honestly, in no book I've read have I been shown Raistlin really connecting with her or respecting her.

Her stint with the Seeker gods made him view her as a weak minded fool abeit a pitable one.

I've always wondered what the attitude of male Solamnic knights to the females is, seeing as how its only recently they've been able to get past the "glass ceiling". I think Linsha is the first female Solamnic Knight, isn't she?

No, the Solamnics histories record one who took up the knighthood to fight when her brothers died. If the Reign of Istar tales are any indication, women in Solamnia are treated as valued members of the household with chilvalric attitudes but not expected to keep quiet. Verminaard Behind the Mask shows a more traditionalist (sexist) household though.

I imagine they'll never specify Linsha as one because any female PCs would automatically be excluded.
#20

zombiegleemax

Oct 09, 2004 9:06:10
I've always wondered what the attitude of male Solamnic knights to the females is, seeing as how its only recently they've been able to get past the "glass ceiling". I think Linsha is the first female Solamnic Knight, isn't she?

Probably still evolving. Until the revision of the Measure, the "proper" role of women in the eyes of Solamnic Knights was as faithful, devoted lady-wives to be treated with utmost courtly grace and shielded from "manly" troubles. Rather Victorian really.

The female Knights are probably a very complex social issue, just as independent women are today for many men. Female Knights were very rare in the past. Traditionalists probably don't know how to behave towards them (as warrior peers or ladies to be treated in a courtly fashion) and may resent them for changing the social rules. Others may be excited to finally have women with whom they can truly share their lives, rather than simply a lady-wife back home that they only see when they aren't off fighting evil.

I do note that Wizards don't seem to marry very often. That's not too odd considering the demanding nature of magic. Palin himself might very not have been able to pull it off but for the period during which there seemingly was no magic, and he and Usha have had their problems. The magic is a demanding mistress, no question about it.
#21

Wizardman

Oct 09, 2004 19:21:33
I think that the best romantic relationship that a wizard can have is with somebody that is equally devoted to the magic. In that scenario, each party will get the other's obsession, because it is mutual.
#22

zombiegleemax

Oct 09, 2004 19:27:02
"I would sacrifice anything for SCIENCE!"

"SCIENCE is both my lover and my child!"

"SCIENCE is the only thing that has ever made me happy!"

Sounds like something a Gnome would say.
#23

zombiegleemax

Oct 10, 2004 10:54:06
I think that the best romantic relationship that a wizard can have is with somebody that is equally devoted to the magic. In that scenario, each party will get the other's obsession, because it is mutual.

They probably need to be ideologically closer though as well. Par-Salian and Ladonna once loved each other, and even still seemed to have lingering feelings late in life. Their main problem was that he chose to wear the White Robes and she the Black. The Good vs Evil divide was insurmountable.

It's not clear how long Dalamar and Jenna would have continued their relationship had the Chaos War not happened. But they had been together for a few years at least.
#24

Wizardman

Oct 10, 2004 16:57:38
They probably need to be ideologically closer though as well. Par-Salian and Ladonna once loved each other, and even still seemed to have lingering feelings late in life. Their main problem was that he chose to wear the White Robes and she the Black. The Good vs Evil divide was insurmountable.

It's not clear how long Dalamar and Jenna would have continued their relationship had the Chaos War not happened. But they had been together for a few years at least.

I forgot to add that part! Argh! Thanks for catching it!