[Athas.org] Questions

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

Pennarin

Oct 12, 2004 16:39:05
Q: The spells Create Undead and Create Greater Undead produce what kind of undead on Athas? I understand most DMs will use the ghouls and mohrgs as they are, but it is my understanding that none of the D&D undead - except skeletons and zombies - exist on Athas. Does athas.org have alternative Undead Created tables for those spells?
#2

jon_oracle_of_athas

Oct 12, 2004 16:44:07
The monster bureau working on the 3.5 version of Terrors of the Deadlands will probably address this in said product.
#3

jaanos

Oct 12, 2004 19:35:08
Well spotted Pennarin.

Q: The spells Create Undead and Create Greater Undead produce what kind of undead on Athas? I understand most DMs will use the ghouls and mohrgs as they are, but it is my understanding that none of the D&D undead - except skeletons and zombies - exist on Athas. Does athas.org have alternative Undead Created tables for those spells?

#4

Pennarin

Oct 12, 2004 20:22:54
Q: How did Draj's House of the Mind, or the templarate, come into possession of the two very powerful items Belt of Glory and King's Circlet? If they came from Tec's treasure vault, why didn't the king have them on him when he died? (because right now I can't find a sensible explanation for it and it does look like a deus ex machina to make Atzetuc more powerful)
#5

zombiegleemax

Oct 15, 2004 22:14:20
Two questions (more out of curiosity than any need to know)

1. Will the epic rules feature stats for major characters? If so, will it be covering only revised boxed set characters or the all of the original sorcerer-kings?

2. What was the reasoning behind making all the armours (full plate, etc) available to characters? Is this a concession to low dex fighters or was there some other factor I'm not seeing?
#6

xlorepdarkhelm_dup

Oct 15, 2004 23:55:15
1. Will the epic rules feature stats for major characters? If so, will it be covering only revised boxed set characters or the all of the original sorcerer-kings?

I would hope that we do. I mean, the known Epic characters from the setting (the Dragon-Kings, Farcluun, Oronis, the other Avangions, the Mind Lords, maybe some of the Order). And more than likely, we'll even include those from the original setting - I'd assume we would, since Athas.org, while officially going from the FY 10 starting point, does seem determined to allow for flexibility - so that people can play Dark Sun how they want, rather than forcing one specific style, or timeframe on you. Now, I can't guarentee that there would be multiple versions of the Sorcerer-Kings, denoting the two settings, or that we'd do stats on those that were dead before the time of the original boxed set.
#7

jaanos

Oct 16, 2004 0:33:25
I'd advise caution - there are alot of different opinions as to the relative strength of the sk's (hammanu and kalak being prime examples). Unless the conversion is a straight "in our new system, a 23rd level dragon would be equal to this..." without the:

"but we think this guys has levels of a fighter in addition to his dragon levels..."

That's where the line from conversion to re-interpretation is crossed, and that's bound to upset people. *stracthes chin thoughtfully*

We all have idea's on who has different levels in what in regards to the sk's - personally, i think Nibenay is probably several levels (if not maxed out) in loremaster - maybe even shadow dancer (hence his name?) -however all we have to go off is what is stated in the 2e role playing material. Stuff from the books (PP, Rise and Fall of A Dragon King etc) are open to interpretation, and that's where any conversion would run into trouble.

So in summary, convert them, but stick to levels in what ever epic prestige class replaces the old 10-level progression from 2e, and avoid the *very* tempting prospect of adding bits and pieces to 'flavour' the conversion.... give a straight conversion from the 2e levels, to the new 3e system, and maybe add a side-bar on:

"what they may have in addition to what's presented"

Bit like Dieties and Demigods in that regard. Convert them without re-interpreting them, and hopefully that will keep people from grumbling too much...



I would hope that we do. I mean, the known Epic characters from the setting (the Dragon-Kings, Farcluun, Oronis, the other Avangions, the Mind Lords, maybe some of the Order). And more than likely, we'll even include those from the original setting - I'd assume we would, since Athas.org, while officially going from the FY 10 starting point, does seem determined to allow for flexibility - so that people can play Dark Sun how they want, rather than forcing one specific style, or timeframe on you. Now, I can't guarentee that there would be multiple versions of the Sorcerer-Kings, denoting the two settings, or that we'd do stats on those that were dead before the time of the original boxed set.

#8

xlorepdarkhelm_dup

Oct 16, 2004 1:29:43
I'd advise caution - there are alot of different opinions as to the relative strength of the sk's (hammanu and kalak being prime examples). Unless the conversion is a straight "in our new system, a 23rd level dragon would be equal to this..." without the:

"but we think this guys has levels of a fighter in addition to his dragon levels..."

That's where the line from conversion to re-interpretation is crossed, and that's bound to upset people. *stracthes chin thoughtfully*

We all have idea's on who has different levels in what in regards to the sk's - personally, i think Nibenay is probably several levels (if not maxed out) in loremaster - maybe even shadow dancer (hence his name?) -however all we have to go off is what is stated in the 2e role playing material. Stuff from the books (PP, Rise and Fall of A Dragon King etc) are open to interpretation, and that's where any conversion would run into trouble.

So in summary, convert them, but stick to levels in what ever epic prestige class replaces the old 10-level progression from 2e, and avoid the *very* tempting prospect of adding bits and pieces to 'flavour' the conversion.... give a straight conversion from the 2e levels, to the new 3e system, and maybe add a side-bar on:

"what they may have in addition to what's presented"

Bit like Dieties and Demigods in that regard. Convert them without re-interpreting them, and hopefully that will keep people from grumbling too much...


Well, for an official release, this is just common sense. Almost to the point of not even needing to be mentioned. But, of course, primarily for the big reason you didn't even specify: simplicity. Simplicity would be to have a simple development/progression for the Sorcerer-Kings. The listings I did in this forum before (and then redid, and then redid, and then redid, and then pointed to, and then referenced, ad nausium) I've always said were my personal reinterpretations of them. When it comes to an official structure, these wouldn't be used. Instead, it would be whatever is needed to achieve it best, and simplest for each SK. Now, to use your examples, I'd probably still push for Hamanu (and Borys) to be Defiler/PsyWar/Dragon, while the others I'd push for Defiler/Psion/Dragon (or Oronis as Preserver/Psion/Avangion). And while in a way, that's a reinterpretation, also in a way it is not. since the PsyWar did not exist in 2E, however it can be covered through the Psionicist (sort of) from 2E. And I don't think it's much of a stretch at all.

Now, on my own site, I'll have my personal breakdown of what I think the SK's should be, as a rewrite of my own personal interpretation. But it won't be the official Athas.org material.
#9

jon_oracle_of_athas

Oct 16, 2004 10:28:05
2. What was the reasoning behind making all the armours (full plate, etc) available to characters? Is this a concession to low dex fighters or was there some other factor I'm not seeing?

Game Balance.
#10

jaanos

Oct 17, 2004 5:40:24
I think simplicity in conversion sums it up beutifully - bring it on! :D

I mean, using your system, if that was adopted wholesale (i'm using that because it's out there, in the public domain and freely available, and the only one i've seen that differs substantially from the 20/20/10 system) then you'd, i'd imagine kinda going along these lines...

"hmm... well, according to cannon, Borys is a 30th level dragon, fully finished... we'll ignore some evidence that his process was rushed, and have him fully completed all 4 stages of transformation. Dregoth is next, his 29 or so levels from 2e translate into 3 levels shy in the new 4-step process..."

I'd love to do my own conversions, it's such a fanscinating thing to speculate... my current thought is that Daskinor was once a member of the Order who got poached by Rajaat, became an SK - maybe he's like 30th level Psion, 20th level mage, and 1st level dragon... but that's speculation. In game terms, he's a 21st level dragon in 2e - what that becomes in the new epic rules is yet to be seen, but essentially it's whatever the requirments are for a dragon plus one "step" if that's one level in a 10-level prestige class, or translates to three levels in a series of three or four 10-level stages, doesn't matter, as long as all the other sk's on the same level wind up on the same peg (simplicity - and provides continual room to haggle, debate and muse over their differences once the conversion is done :D )

Glad to hear conversion is just that - didn't seriously doubt it was going to be anything else, athas.org's materials so far have shown a desire to convert within the realms of what WOTC lay down and the simple fact that some things have to change from 2e to 3e.

I only raised this because it's an area of such intense interest to so many of us "what if..." types on the forum.

Must say, can't wait to see the epic rules :D

Well, for an official release, this is just common sense. Almost to the point of not even needing to be mentioned. But, of course, primarily for the big reason you didn't even specify: simplicity. Simplicity would be to have a simple development/progression for the Sorcerer-Kings. The listings I did in this forum before (and then redid, and then redid, and then redid, and then pointed to, and then referenced, ad nausium) I've always said were my personal reinterpretations of them. When it comes to an official structure, these wouldn't be used. Instead, it would be whatever is needed to achieve it best, and simplest for each SK. Now, to use your examples, I'd probably still push for Hamanu (and Borys) to be Defiler/PsyWar/Dragon, while the others I'd push for Defiler/Psion/Dragon (or Oronis as Preserver/Psion/Avangion). And while in a way, that's a reinterpretation, also in a way it is not. since the PsyWar did not exist in 2E, however it can be covered through the Psionicist (sort of) from 2E. And I don't think it's much of a stretch at all.

Now, on my own site, I'll have my personal breakdown of what I think the SK's should be, as a rewrite of my own personal interpretation. But it won't be the official Athas.org material.

#11

Pennarin

Oct 17, 2004 17:06:56
Q: What is athas.org's stand on [Regional] feats, and the newer, more exotic feats like [Initiate] vis-à-vis DS3 ?
#12

jon_oracle_of_athas

Oct 17, 2004 18:04:50
DS3 *has* regional feats.

Initiate feats will have to be considered by the Skills and Feats Bureau. I can see them used for templars of the different sorcerer-kings.
#13

Pennarin

Oct 17, 2004 18:22:04
DS3 *has* regional feats.

Not in the sense of the Forgotten Realms regional feats.
Those have all the characteristics of the DS3 feats with a regional prerequisite, and must be chosen at 1st level, just like in DS3, except that in FR one can only take one regional feat no matter how many feats the character gets at 1st level, which is not the case for DS3 as I understand it: one can take as many 1st level-only feats as he gets feats at 1st level.
#14

jon_oracle_of_athas

Oct 18, 2004 3:07:50
True.
#15

Pennarin

Oct 18, 2004 15:13:22
Well thanks Jon, it does answer the question.

DS3's regional feat system is less restricting than for FR, albeit offering less "powerful" advantages. I think I like it that way.
#16

the_peacebringer

Oct 19, 2004 9:43:45
Where does the lead bead come from? Is it a new flavour devised by you guys, is it part of a subtle phrase I missed in 2ed material I possess OR is it part of the 2e material I still don't have?

This question has already been answered in another thread as being put there to replace the copper piece value, and that's fine, but I have yet a few more questions about the subject.

Q1: Where is lead mined?
Q2: Could it be used for anything else on Athas (obviouly not for weapons)?
Q3 Are there places it is not used (Gulg, for example)?
Q4: What are your thoughts on lead poisoning? :D
Q5: What is the general "history" or ideas you had that made you choose lead... if any?

Note: I'm not posting to cause you guys at Athas.org headaches! I was just wondering.

Thanks!
PB
#17

jon_oracle_of_athas

Oct 19, 2004 10:09:51
Q1: Where is lead mined?

In mines.

Q2: Could it be used for anything else on Athas (obviouly not for weapons)?

Though a weapon, the swatter has a lead or bronze core for added weight and impact. Other uses could be for stained glass (if you allow it in your campaigns), lead glazing for pottery/china, or artwork (lead is enduring and doesn't tarnish). Architects could use lead in building foundations to protect against earthquakes.

Q3 Are there places it is not used (Gulg, for example)?

Why wouldn't gulgs use lead? Lead as an element has a low melting point, is easily shaped and it's enduring.

Q4: What are your thoughts on lead poisoning?

It will be the downfall of Athasian civilization. ;)

Q5: What is the general "history" or ideas you had that made you choose lead... if any?

I can't remember.
#18

the_peacebringer

Oct 19, 2004 17:20:14
In mines.

Really?!! :OMG!

Though a weapon, the swatter has a lead or bronze core for added weight and impact. Other uses could be for stained glass (if you allow it in your campaigns), lead glazing for pottery/china, or artwork (lead is enduring and doesn't tarnish). Architects could use lead in building foundations to protect against earthquakes.

Stained glass, heh? Hmm... interesting. I stand corrected about the weapons. Thanks for the info; I'm no leadcrafter, you know. The only things I know about lead are: they made paint with it, X-rays don't pass through and I'm contaminated by the tooth caps I had as a child... damn dentist...

Why wouldn't gulgs use lead? Lead as an element has a low melting point, is easily shaped and it's enduring.

I don't know... I figured they were too primitive to get their teeth capped. Seriously, I just had a hard time seeing them mine the stuff; your explanations are sound, though, thanks.

It will be the downfall of Athasian civilization. ;)

I knew it!!!

I can't remember.

Too bad, but thanks anyways!
#19

objulen

Oct 24, 2004 3:36:56
On the topic of Dragons/Avangions, will the requirements for the transformation spells make the Cerebremancer (probably sic) the best choice to become an ascendant being? Assuming, of course, that they exist in Athas (I would assume that few would, though probably not in large numbers).
#20

jon_oracle_of_athas

Oct 24, 2004 6:37:44
The cerebromancer will be the quickest path to becoming an advanced being.
#21

objulen

Oct 24, 2004 10:27:44
The cerebromancer will be the quickest path to becoming an advanced being.

Indeed. How much quicker, though? One would think that getting 10 caster/manifester levels at the same time would be a great enough casting boost that anyone seriously looking at becoming an advanced would almost have to take the PrC, since you have level 8 spells and level 8 powers by level 20, as opposed to a 10/10 split that would only reach 5th level spells/powers.
#22

Pennarin

Oct 24, 2004 12:19:06
The goal is to become powerful, not to reach an X or Y step the fastest. There actually is no competition, or competitors. All Sorcerer-Monarchs except Dregoth are reticent to advance further in their metamorphosis and are stalling their growth.

The cerebromancer, albeit he can use powerful spells and powers, does not have good saves, for example, and very few feats...
#23

objulen

Oct 24, 2004 14:13:44
The goal is to become powerful, not to reach an X or Y step the fastest. There actually is no competition, or competitors. All Sorcerer-Monarchs except Dregoth are reticent to advance further in their metamorphosis and are stalling their growth.

The cerebromancer, albeit he can use powerful spells and powers, does not have good saves, for example, and very few feats...

This would be somewhat subjective. While the goal is to become more powerful, one might see gaining an advanced form as quickly as possible to be the best route to power, given the vast power offered by the transformation.
As for competition and competitors, that depends on who you ask. A defiler would probably see the other Sorcerer Kings as competition.

1) The Sorcerer Kings except for Dregoth AND Oronis are trying to stall their metamorphosis. Oronis might very well seek a way to speed the process so his plans of renewing Athas can begin sooner.

2) The Sorcerer Kings are already undergoing the metamorphisis, so this is a moot point. They have already reached the requirements and have cast the spell, and are undoubtedly epic level creatures, so again, the point, in this case, is moot.

But let's examine your case. You say that the point is power, not speed. What, exactly, is the Cerebremancer losing compared to a multi-class character?

-A cerebromancer has saves only marginally worse than a wizard/psion of equivelant character level. A Wizard 10/Psion 10 has Fort/Ref/Will saves of 6/6/14. A Wizard 5/Psion 5/Cerebremancer 10 has Fort/Ref/Will saves of 5/5/15.

-A Wizard 10/Psion 10 gains 2 bonus feats that a Wizard5/Psion 5/Cerebremancer 10 does not get (the bonus feats at level 10 of each class).

-A Wizard 10/Psion 10 has a BAB of +10/+5. A Wizard 5/Psion 5/Cerebremancer 10 has a BAB of +9.

So, essentially, a Wizard 10/Psion 10 gives up level 6,7, and 8 powers (5 caster/manifester levels in each class) AND spells for +1 Fort and Reflex saves, -1 to Will saves, +1 to BAB, a more powerful familiar and psi-crystal, an extra attack, and 2 bonus feats. How, exactly, is the Wizard 10/Psion 10 in any way more powerful than the Cerebremancer? You have a minor sacrifice to saves, a loss of BAB and an attack for a caster class, a less powerful psi-crystal and familiar, and lose two bonus feats for a level 6, 7, and 8 spells and powers equaling 2 level 5 spell slots, 3 level 6 spell slots, 2 level 7 spell slots, 1 level 8 spell slot, 107 power points, 7 known powers, 5 caster and manifester levels, and all associated bonus spell slots and power points that would not be available to a level 10 caster/manifester that are available to a level 15 caster/manifester. Since you will be sending your intelligence into the atmosphere, this will equal quite alot.

This also doesn't factor in the benefits of the Avangion/Dragon transformation achieved earlier at epic levels when compared to a strait wizard/psion.


So why would anyone who knew of advanced being and the Cerebremancer PrC NOT take it when you sacrifice so litte to gain so much, particularly in speeding your transformation?
#24

xlorepdarkhelm_dup

Oct 24, 2004 15:23:22
On the topic of Dragons/Avangions, will the requirements for the transformation spells make the Cerebremancer (probably sic) the best choice to become an ascendant being? Assuming, of course, that they exist in Athas (I would assume that few would, though probably not in large numbers).

The cerebromancer will be the quickest path to becoming an advanced being.

Indeed. How much quicker, though? One would think that getting 10 caster/manifester levels at the same time would be a great enough casting boost that anyone seriously looking at becoming an advanced would almost have to take the PrC, since you have level 8 spells and level 8 powers by level 20, as opposed to a 10/10 split that would only reach 5th level spells/powers.

This is the thing, with the way we're working it, based purely on caster/manifester levels alone, it could be possible that a cerebrmancer could be able to start on the process at character level 21. There are other mitigating factors however that will limit this, and make it much less likely, and we're basically working that we don't want people to start any earlier than character level 25. Since the "typical" configuration, based on manifester/spellcaster levels alone, of a Psion/Wizard could concievably start by level 28 (working from being able to cast 9th level spells, and manifest 6th level powers - if you want to know why, please do a search for dragons & avangions within this forum, as it has been explained to death in countless posts) - since a Wizard can cast 9th level spells at level 17, and a Psion can manifest 6th level powers at 11, 17 + 11 = 28th level character. A Cerebremancer would be able to do this sooner, with our current soft cap of level 25 minimum to begin the process (details still under discussion as to how to accomplish this). And keep in mind - the faster route will also most likely be far more dangerous to undergo - with a higher chance of not only failure, but potentially dying from the process. So, the Cerebremancer could help the potential dragon/avangion to achieve more power, they still may find it in their best interests to wait it out a bit and not start the process too soon.
#25

Pennarin

Oct 24, 2004 16:03:06
A lot more articulate and precise than my comment. Way to go Xlorep!

Yes, one of the goals is to get high enough saves so you can get reasonable chances of surviving the metamorphosis stages, not to mention the animalistic rage, which will probably force you to wait a king's age or two while you find ways of boosting up on your saves.

Did I mention I stoped smoking and my brain has partially shutdown from chemical imbalance? [/excuses]
Nah, didn't thought so.
#26

objulen

Oct 24, 2004 19:17:07
Thanks for your reply xlorepdarkhelm. I will look up that thread.
#27

bengeldorn

Oct 24, 2004 22:12:52
DS3 *has* regional feats.

Initiate feats will have to be considered by the Skills and Feats Bureau. I can see them used for templars of the different sorcerer-kings.

Will there be a kind of a political map?
If a player wants to make a character, that never saw the "big cities", would he be able to take regional feats? How does he know which feats he could possibly take? If he is not allowed to take them, wouldn't that be unballanced?
#28

the_peacebringer

Oct 27, 2004 13:08:56
A little question for you guys...
Are the fiendish and celestial templates (as in summoned monsters in ToA) used with the optics that there are hells and heavens (as in the Outer planes), is it a monster or animal boosted with negative or positive energy (from their respectful energy planes), or is it a way to make "normal" animals more Athasians?

I personnaly use the positive/negative energy boost, but what did you guys have in mind when you "let" those templates pass for Athas?

Thanks
PB
#29

xlorepdarkhelm_dup

Oct 27, 2004 13:43:11
A little question for you guys...
Are the fiendish and celestial templates (as in summoned monsters in ToA) used with the optics that there are hells and heavens (as in the Outer planes), is it a monster or animal boosted with negative or positive energy (from their respectful energy planes), or is it a way to make "normal" animals more Athasians?

I personnaly use the positive/negative energy boost, but what did you guys have in mind when you "let" those templates pass for Athas?

Thanks
PB

Personally, I don't permit feindish or celestial creatures.
#30

jon_oracle_of_athas

Oct 27, 2004 15:15:22
A little question for you guys...

Gab, Nyt, Mark, do any of you monster manglers have an answer?
#31

nytcrawlr

Oct 27, 2004 17:06:46
is it a monster or animal boosted with negative or positive energy (from their respectful energy planes),

I think it was more of this if I recall correctly.
#32

objulen

Oct 27, 2004 21:11:28
Personally, I don't permit feindish or celestial creatures.

Indeed. Athas is relativly cut off from the planes, floating out their by its lonesome. Outsiders don't really fit the setting that well.
#33

zombiegleemax

Oct 29, 2004 12:29:15
Personally, I don't permit feindish or celestial creatures.

Me neither. But the elemental templates from Manual of the Planes are in good use. The air cleric in the party can summon only creatures with the air element template instead of the celestial/fiendish templates. The same is true for the other clerics with their respective (para)elements.

The shadow template (again from Manual of the Planes) is good for creatures coming from the Black, it's logical that shadow wizards summon cretures always with the shadow template. Normal wizards can choose it for their summoned creatures.

Using the celestial and fiendish templates kills the (godless, heavenless, hell-less) mood of Athas IMHO.
#34

superpriest

Nov 01, 2004 12:22:45
Check out the elemental incarnations for Athas.org's versions of the MotP creatures. We couldn't use the non-Core creatures, so we made our own, including paraelemental types.
#35

bongo

Nov 07, 2004 19:11:38
1. How do the Thri-Kreen's multiple arms work? The Dark Sun 3 pdf only mentions multiple arms briefly under the physical description. It doesn't give any details or mention them in the Thri-Kreen traits.

2. If I'm reading it right, the Dark Sun 3 pdf is supposed to be used with the 3.0 psionics rules instead of 3.5 expanded psionics. Are there any plans to update it for expanded psionics?

P.S. You guys are doing fantastic work. This is the best fan-made stuff I've ever seen.
#36

jon_oracle_of_athas

Nov 08, 2004 2:08:59
1. They work as described in the Monster Manual. Kreen can take Multiattack and Multiweapon Fighting.

2. 3.5 XPH update is in the works. Still working on the psionics. I'm looking into options for speeding up the process.

P.S: Thanks!
#37

rwb

Nov 08, 2004 19:49:26
Hmmm? :D
#38

jon_oracle_of_athas

Nov 09, 2004 2:19:11
While I could always toss out a release date, I'd rather not, if I can't guarantee we can make that deadline. Broken promises are worse than no promises.
#39

rwb

Nov 09, 2004 19:09:25
3 months, 6 months?
#40

jon_oracle_of_athas

Nov 10, 2004 2:17:51
We have a bad history with fires in athas.org members' buildings that tend to slow down work, and if you've ever tried running a virtual organization based on volunteer work, you know things can be delayed by just too many reasons...
#41

zombiegleemax

Nov 10, 2004 12:19:48
We have a bad history with fires in athas.org members' buildings that tend to slow down work, and if you've ever tried running a virtual organization based on volunteer work, you know things can be delayed by just too many reasons...

Yeah... I agree, our project never promises a release-date, the last time we did we broke it, there is always something to delay our work: a cold, a girlfriend, an exam, elections, a disease, a job and of course... we too get tired, we are still humans.. ;)
#42

Nefal

Nov 11, 2004 4:38:18
Here is another... I know I already asked this question but I received no answer. It isn't only a reflexion about rules, it's an experience of gaming and I would have your point of view about this.

I've recently lead a small adventure and one of my player played a dwarf. I noticed that dwarves had lost a lot if we compare their classical version with their athas.org version. I mean in particular in comparison with elves (as always). I thought that ToA would fix these problems... but not really.
I understand quite good the withdrawal of stonecunning ability, bonuses against goblinoids, dodge bonus against giants, bonuses related to stone and metal. No problem, these abilities have nothing to do with our athasian dwarf.
But I don't understand some choices: why athasian dwarfes haven't no more Stability ability? I find the actual Weapon Familiarity poor too. Urgrosh isn't good weapon (take a waraxe and a short sword and you have almost the same effect) Why not design the carrikal as a dwarven waraxe? It would be really interesting for dwarves. Maybe I rule the Focus ability too restrictive (only in very rare situations).
As a note, elves gain +10 base land speed, Weapon familiarity with Elven Longblade (that's a very good weapon), have a heat/cold resistance and the elf run ability + a lot of regular bonuses. Where's the balance?

Anyway, great job guys!!! and please explain me what I haven't understood!
#43

zombiegleemax

Nov 11, 2004 7:28:06
Who said Dark Sun should be balanced??

And I'm not saying that alone... I'm just a parrot..
#44

brun01

Nov 11, 2004 7:52:57
Wanna play with a dwarf? Play with a mul! :D
#45

Pennarin

Nov 15, 2004 12:58:19
Question: I know the spell create tree of life will be added to DS later on (I seem to recall as an epic spell) but will the spell pact of darkness be also added? If so, of what level will it be? or will it be epic?
#46

zombiegleemax

Nov 15, 2004 13:14:18
the official Athas.org releases are great..... so great that I want to print them and have them binded (Kinko's does semi-professional type binding still, right?).... but the releases keep getting updated and re-released in different forms...
my question is: which of the releases that are out right now are REALLY final?... like have no plans so far to update them any further in the near future?....
I dont want to have printed and binded one of the releases to then have an announcement saying "we are working on an update for it now"..
#47

jon_oracle_of_athas

Nov 15, 2004 15:18:57
The advantages of online releases is that we can update them with errata as a result of playtest feedback. It's product improvement, but doesn't make a previous version invalid. Right now we're working on getting everything updated to 3.5 rules and including Expanded Psionics Handbook rules.

Whispers of the Storm and Tyrian Conspiracy are finished for now.
#48

elonarc

Nov 15, 2004 15:30:53
Walks by, whistling... :D
#49

zombiegleemax

Nov 15, 2004 17:02:57
Whispers of the Storm and Tyrian Conspiracy are finished for now.

The Oracle gives a straight answer?... you've gotta be kidding right?.. ;)

so you are saying that if you were the one that was wanting to print and bind some DS3 stuff.... you would do these two releases now?
#50

elonarc

Nov 15, 2004 17:28:27
Well...I have to admit I found a mistake in my conversion right after the release but have kept quite about it.

Page 8, "Ex-slave thugs": The HD should be 3d12+3 because of the toughness feat.

Damn! Now I've revealed my own shortcoming...
#51

Pennarin

Nov 15, 2004 18:41:32
Er, rrmmm. :whistle:
No answer to my question?

P.S. Am I in the right thread?
#52

jon_oracle_of_athas

Nov 16, 2004 3:40:32
so you are saying that if you were the one that was wanting to print and bind some DS3 stuff.... you would do these two releases now?

Well, you would have to survive living with the fact of Elonarc's small error concerning one stat block entry, but beyond that, yes, I would have those printed. In any case, if a new version is ever posted, it will be minor corrections only - hardly worth another printing.
#53

jon_oracle_of_athas

Nov 16, 2004 3:44:03
Question: I know the spell create tree of life will be added to DS later on (I seem to recall as an epic spell) but will the spell pact of darkness be also added? If so, of what level will it be? or will it be epic?

I don't have an answer for you at the moment. Sorry.
#54

jon_oracle_of_athas

Nov 16, 2004 3:46:14
I've recently lead a small adventure and one of my player played a dwarf. I noticed that dwarves had lost a lot if we compare their classical version with their athas.org version. I mean in particular in comparison with elves (as always). I thought that ToA would fix these problems... but not really.

I'll make sure we take a look at the dwarf under the microscope before we release DS 3.5 accomodated for the Expanded Psionics Handbook.
#55

superpriest

Nov 16, 2004 8:16:09
I've recently lead a small adventure and one of my player played a dwarf. I noticed that dwarves had lost a lot if we compare their classical version with their athas.org version. I mean in particular in comparison with elves (as always). I thought that ToA would fix these problems... but not really.
I understand quite good the withdrawal of stonecunning ability, bonuses against goblinoids, dodge bonus against giants, bonuses related to stone and metal. No problem, these abilities have nothing to do with our athasian dwarf.
But I don't understand some choices: why athasian dwarfes haven't no more Stability ability? I find the actual Weapon Familiarity poor too. Urgrosh isn't good weapon (take a waraxe and a short sword and you have almost the same effect) Why not design the carrikal as a dwarven waraxe? It would be really interesting for dwarves. Maybe I rule the Focus ability too restrictive (only in very rare situations).
As a note, elves gain +10 base land speed, Weapon familiarity with Elven Longblade (that's a very good weapon), have a heat/cold resistance and the elf run ability + a lot of regular bonuses. Where's the balance?

In D&D 3.5, dwarf is the best race, except perhaps human. Elf and halfling are pretty good choices, but dwarf clearly tops them, especially if you were going to wear Medium or heavier armor anyway.

In Dark Sun, elf may be the best race. Athasian elves gained a lot, while dwarves lost a little (much of what they lost isn't very important). So I would not say things are very unbalanced between the races, only that the balance has shifted.

However, dwarves should certainly retain Stability (it makes sense), and perhaps should get another small bonus. Maybe they can negate penalties for wearing armor in the sun?

I'll pass this on to the mailing list as well.
#56

Nefal

Nov 16, 2004 14:24:52
Thanks for your answers!

For input, dwarves in my campaign have the stability ability and the carrikal is a kind of dwarven waraxe.
#57

the_peacebringer

Nov 16, 2004 17:20:43
For input, dwarves in my campaign have the stability ability and the carrikal is a kind of dwarven waraxe.

Eh, what do you know? In my campaign too!
#58

Kamelion

Nov 20, 2004 18:55:12
A little question for you guys...
Are the fiendish and celestial templates (as in summoned monsters in ToA) used with the optics that there are hells and heavens (as in the Outer planes), is it a monster or animal boosted with negative or positive energy (from their respectful energy planes), or is it a way to make "normal" animals more Athasians?

I personnaly use the positive/negative energy boost, but what did you guys have in mind when you "let" those templates pass for Athas?

Thanks
PB

The latest version of ToA doesn't use the fiendish/celestial templates anymore. Superpriest Mike designed the superfly elemental incarnation templates to replace them . Prior to this, though, we were going with the idea that they represented infusions of positive/negative energy, which works fine if you decide to keep them.
#59

zombiegleemax

Nov 26, 2004 7:45:52
I didn`t look the thread, what is a kaisharga?
It looks like a lich to me, all I know is that it`s undead.
Played Dark Sun 2: Wake of the Ravager.
No clues to what it is.
#60

zombiegleemax

Nov 26, 2004 7:55:23
I didn`t look the thread, what is a kaisharga?
It looks like a lich to me, all I know is that it`s undead.
Played Dark Sun 2: Wake of the Ravager.
No clues to what it is.

Check the supplement from athas.org "Terrors of The Dead Lands"

http://www.athas.org/releases/totdl/

And, you're right, a Kaisharga is an undead.. a very mean one.
#61

flip

Nov 26, 2004 9:07:09
Stability ... that's the ability to not get slowed down by heavy armor, right?
::Checks the SRD:: Oh, no, that's not what it is ... Hrm.

::loads up The Documents:: Consider it errata'd in.
#62

methvezem

Nov 26, 2004 13:26:39
Is there a special reason why the jarbo, from Dungeon mag 35, was not converted as an animal in Terrors of Athas?
#63

Kamelion

Nov 26, 2004 14:41:16
Is there a special reason why the jarbo, from Dungeon mag 35, was not converted as an animal in Terrors of Athas?

*shrieks and runs around in a panic, flailing arms madly at thought of having missed another monster*

Ahem.

If my memory serves me correctly, Nyt did say that there was one creature that we couldn't track down and so didn't convert - that may have been the culprit. Or was that the geran from Polyhedron #64? Hmmm. Oh dear. Anyway, if you would like to share the jarbo stats with one of us from the Monster Bureau, we can probably get it converted and into the next release of ToA (there will be at least one more, as far as I can figure, with artwork and some final edits). Thanks .
#64

jon_oracle_of_athas

Nov 26, 2004 18:45:29
You slackers at the monsters bureau... tsk. tsk. tsk. :P

*runs for the hills screaming Rafodik*
#65

superpriest

Nov 26, 2004 22:30:24
Anyway, if you would like to share the jarbo stats with one of us from the Monster Bureau, we can probably get it converted and into the next release of ToA (there will be at least one more, as far as I can figure, with artwork and some final edits). Thanks .

Yeah, OK. We'll add the jarbo.

I have been collecting ToA errata as I encounter it, so I'll have some changes to make when we finalize it.
#66

Kamelion

Nov 27, 2004 4:08:58
Yeah, OK. We'll add the jarbo.

I have been collecting ToA errata as I encounter it, so I'll have some changes to make when we finalize it.

Coolness . Now if we can just find that darn Geran anywhere...

Methvezem, thanks again. I replied to your email.
#67

Pennarin

Dec 17, 2004 18:30:37
Question concerning the DS3 core document:

The way its written, only templars can cast spell resistance (5th-level), unlike power resistance that can be manifested by both wilders and all psions.

In the PHB, its a Clr5, Magic5, Protection5 spell. I can't figure why its not a Wiz spell in DS3...

Also, how are armors and powerful artifacts supposed to have SR if they were created before templars first started existing? Limited wish (7th-level) or wish (9th-level) spells?

But that would mean its easy for wilders/psions to gain PR, but tough for wizards to get SR, and forcing clerics to cast miracle ...
#68

nytcrawlr

Dec 17, 2004 20:31:03
If my memory serves me correctly, Nyt did say that there was one creature that we couldn't track down and so didn't convert - that may have been the culprit.

We missed another one!?

:OMG!


Or was that the geran from Polyhedron #64?

Aye, don't think we will ever be able to add that one since I can't get my hands on the polyhedron, and it's like the only DS poly I'm missing too.
#69

Kamelion

Dec 17, 2004 20:57:59
We missed another one!?

Heh heh - actually, we missed two - I spotted the Bone Worm in CbtSS the other day. But it's undead, so can go into TotDL instead, once I stat it out :D...
#70

nytcrawlr

Dec 17, 2004 21:54:51
Heh heh - actually, we missed two - I spotted the Bone Worm in CbtSS the other day. But it's undead, so can go into TotDL instead, once I stat it out :D...

Jeez oh peez.
#71

Pennarin

Dec 17, 2004 23:32:35
While I'd still like an aswer to my...concern expressed above, I wonder if you converted the weird critters in Black Spines?
There's the Var, on page 58 of Adventure Book 2.
I also seem to recall creatures that lived underground and formed hives, and produced some kind of mauve royal jelly with nutritious qualities, like bees do.
#72

Kamelion

Dec 18, 2004 5:52:31
While I'd still like an aswer to my...concern expressed above, I wonder if you converted the weird critters in Black Spines?
There's the Var, on page 58 of Adventure Book 2.
I also seem to recall creatures that lived underground and formed hives, and produced some kind of mauve royal jelly with nutritious qualities, like bees do.

whistles and hums and pretends not to hear...


OK, OK - the var. And maybe that psionic tree thing too, then. But only because it's Xmas. The jelly-producers are all dead (they're called eelar, apparently) so I guess we can leave those. Ho ho ho.

:D.
#73

zombiegleemax

Dec 30, 2004 9:05:14
I have the Geran at home...somewhere...I'll scan it, or just type it out and send it to you when I get a minute.

I have all the polyhedron articles.

Robert
#74

methvezem

Jan 06, 2005 8:00:06
Question concerning the DS3 core document:

At the beginning of the Spells chapter it is written that "most of the spells
noted below are spells added to the general cleric spell list in the
PHB.". Is this phrase applicable to druid and wizards spells list too? If so, it could be added at the beginning of the chapter. Thanks.
#75

flip

Jan 06, 2005 8:11:26
Question concerning the DS3 core document:

At the beginning of the Spells chapter it is written that "most of the spells
noted below are spells added to the general cleric spell list in the
PHB.". Is this phrase applicable to druid and wizards spells list too? If so, it could be added at the beginning of the chapter. Thanks.

Yes, it's true of all the spell lists. The exception, of course, being that Bards don't have spells.
#76

Kamelion

Jan 06, 2005 12:08:47
I have the Geran at home...somewhere...I'll scan it, or just type it out and send it to you when I get a minute.

I have all the polyhedron articles.

Robert

Hey, cool! That would be great - go ahead and bounce me a copy or send it to the monsters mailing list. Many thanks .
#77

nytcrawlr

Jan 06, 2005 13:54:32
I have the Geran at home...somewhere...I'll scan it, or just type it out and send it to you when I get a minute.

I have all the polyhedron articles.

Robert

Dude you rock!

Send me a copy too please.

I'll get the thing converted in no time once I get it.

Thanks.