Nobody is out to get sorcery and mysticism. Douglas Niles was perhaps a bit too enthusiastic in "Wizard's Conclave" but Towers of High Sorcery has the right perspective. The fundamental problem with Sorcery is that it is a wizard tradition that just isn't as interesting as the WoHS. There is no sense of mystery, ritual, tradition and occultism in the Sorcery tradition.
Now I still use sorcerers, but only when I need a little flexibility. They are essentially used when I need a band of renegade magic-users. Even then though, I have to find some reason to make them sorcerers and renegade wizards will do just as well. I also use them in terms of enfolding into other organizations that aren't WoHS such as the Knights of Nereka and the Legion of Steel.
Mysticism I use when I want divine abilities without caring about religious dogma... or when I want to create new religions and philosophical movements outside of the Holy Order of the Stars. I also use mysticism to explain Rangers, Paladins, Monks, and the devout lay faithful that aren't clerics.
Now I'm going to open up a new thread on this subject, perhaps you can enlighten all of us on how to use Mystics and Sorcerers in a post-WoS world. I'm pretty sure that the above is how things are going to work in the campaign setting, so maybe you have some additional suggestions. Maybe the sorcerers and mystics would have been less easily replaced if the SAGA designers had came up with a magic system that didn't so closely mimic D&D clerics and wizards it would have a higher profile now than just "oh btw, if you want to play a PHB sorcerer..." For an example, look at the Psionics Handbook and Expanded Psionics Handbook for info on how they have tried to differentiate those spellcasters from traditional wizards and clerics.
Frankly, that's all I see sorcerers as. Brainstorm with me, those who know sorcerers better, and give me some options for sorcerers that wizards cannot fill, and have not been mentioned. Remember, I already said I use them in organizations other than the WoHS that demand their complete attention. I have to be inspired to see their unique flavour.
The difference between sorcery and wizardry is fundamentally that sorcery is born directly from the self and soul rather than from the gods and refined science. While sorcery comes from the Earth, empowered by Chaos' ambient energies (at least until sorcerers can develop some means of gaining that power for themselves-perhaps binding the Graygem and sucking away), it is primarily internal.
Sorcery's "Flavor" is also that some people, particularly those born after the War of Souls, are sorcerer talented from birth. Raistlin and his mother had the potential for sorcery but chose to become "spell beggers" in their own fashion.
Good sources for Sorcery in film would be Scanners and The Star Wars sexology (find those unusually strong in the energy of Krynn aka THE FORCE)
The power of Sorcery can also be likened to Preserving and Defiling from Black Sun since its power that is not based on the black moon. Basically, Sorcerers are internal and based on the elements of the world around them. The High Wizards are scientists and moon worshippers
Sorcerers are psychics and mystics (earth sense)
It's ironic really because for psionics, I always hated the merging of Jedi with traditional psychcis since it was an uneven fit. For sorcery though, I feel the role they established for sorcery fits perfectly. Call me strange but the system fits better.
Mystics I have honestly less use for since like with clerics and wizards of High sorcery (who are clerics of the moon), the line blurs with sorcerers to a certain extent.
I however, use Mystics as individuals whom bring their beliefs to power. Mystics in my campaign don't need truly great training but just need to BELIEVE. The Seeker Gods are the first religion to benefit because they don't have to exist anymore since the abstract concepts they represent inspire enough faith to have that power drawn from.
Mystics worship "Death", Magic, and fragments of their own mind largely. I had fun with Mystics during the Fifth Age short game I did run (don't think me a total New Age hater) by basically becoming Templars for the Dragon Highlords (I know-even bigger Athas rip off)
They didn't HAVE to be gods to 'grant' spells, just inspire awe.
Nobody is out to get sorcery and mysticism. Douglas Niles was perhaps a bit too enthusiastic in "Wizard's Conclave" but Towers of High Sorcery has the right perspective.
Perhaps that was Niles being a bit too "enthusiastic"...but it's too late to go back on it now...that's how it is, and so we have to deal with the consequences. One of which for me is that I've lost respect for the Wizards of High Sorcery as hypocritical beaurocrats. The wizards (even Dalamar) used sorcery during the early Age of Mortals, most very willingly (like Jenna) who have completely turned on the very people they use work with...hell, used to be. The people who are being hunted now, were once the heroes and saviors of a time when the Gods had abandoned the people of Krynn once again ('cause that's exactly how the common man and woman is going to see it). It bothers me how quickly the wizards turned on their brethren (and let's be honest here, the way they view sorcery, that could very easily be applied to mysticism as well. I doubt it will be long before they turn their attention to them as well).
Maybe the sorcerers and mystics would have been less easily replaced if the SAGA designers had came up with a magic system that didn't so closely mimic D&D clerics and wizards it would have a higher profile now than just "oh btw, if you want to play a PHB sorcerer..."
That's not what the SAGA designers came up with...that's what WotC forced onto sorcerers and mystics as a retcon.
They are nothing like they once were...and although I've accepted this retcon as a necessity for 3rd Edition...I'm like you in that the classes on the whole are relatively bland. 3e killed all interest in sorcerers and mystics for me...which sucks because they were my favorite part of SAGA. A new free form kind of magic...sure, it wasn't as powerful, but it was so much more useful (this, of course, coming from someone who has never been much of a fan of magic using classes).
I don't know what to do about them now...their "home bases" have been destroyed, and they've been scattered...and now they'll be hunted. I don't know what to do with them anymore...
Perhaps that was Niles being a bit too "enthusiastic"...but it's too late to go back on it now...that's how it is, and so we have to deal with the consequences. One of which for me is that I've lost respect for the Wizards of High Sorcery as hypocritical bureauocrats.
To a large extent, the hatred for sorcery I've always felt was more at the source of the gods than at the hands of the wizards themselves. I also point out that Palin's attempt to institute sorcery in the wizard's conclave failed miserably. I always wondered why they didn't teach sorcerers at the Academy but instead taught them at Solace. Its also understandable that Solinari might soften his view, same as Lunitari, while Nuitari wouldn't.
Takhasis' manipulations and the new revelation about Chaos probably also embittered many about it.
They are nothing like they once were...and although I've accepted this retcon as a necessity for 3rd Edition...I'm like you in that the classes on the whole are relatively bland. 3e killed all interest in sorcerers and mystics for me...which sucks because they were my favorite part of SAGA. A new free form kind of magic...sure, it wasn't as powerful, but it was so much more useful (this, of course, coming from someone who has never been much of a fan of magic using classes).
To each their own, I gained my first interest in sorcery when D&D 3E spelled out what exactly the difference was between Sorcerers and Wizards (and I'm aware the differences are nothing like it was in Saga). Sorcerers still have disadvantages but their "not as powerful, but more versatile" is a HELL of a lot better spelled out in the 3E rules.
I don't know what to do about them now...their "home bases" have been destroyed, and they've been scattered...and now they're being hunted. I don't know what to do with them anymore...
Palin's Academy was the source of only Palin and Ulin's interpretation of sorcery, or as I call it HIGH WIZARDRY PRETENDING TO BE SORCERY. I also point out that almost all of the wizards left since Solace wasn't exactly a great den of mystical learning. The Thorn Knights found the magic on their own and it was discovered independently across the entirety of Krynn.
I'm dissapointed in WIzard's conclave also because it also established there's about a DOZEN wizards of High Sorcery, the sorcerers number in the hundreds not thousands. If they hunt them down, it wouldn't take much effort for a few sorcerers to wipe out the Order of High Sorcery completely. Remember, they just lost the tower of Wayearth.
Sorcerers have always been scattered and that's why they are pretty much invincible and likely to grow. The High Wizards are centralized and regulated, sorcery spreads like wildfire amongst the LoS and other places because it's
"Quicker, Easier, More Seductive" since oh gee...NO ONE IS PREVENTING ANYONE FROM LEARNING IT.
Frankly, I can't imagine sorcerers ever not outnumbering wizards. Kill one and by that time two more have been trained.
The big divide I think is that wizards are going to be more organized whereas sorcerors are likely to be individuals. Some organizations, notably the Knights of Solamnia, will only deal with WoHS (and only White Robes at that). Sorcerors, except perhaps in the libertarian Legion of Steel, will be free agents.
The wizards have a clear advantage in that they have the support of the Gods of Magic, which is an edge the sorcerors will never be able to match. However, the gods seem to be taking a long-term view on that matter. I expect that the Wizards will spend more time in the coming years to replenishing their numbers and perhaps constructing new Towers, which is by far the most likely course to restore their prestige. Nuitari will be the only exception. It is inevitable that he will move against the Thorn Knights, trying to force them into the Black Robes or else exterminate them (possibly with Solinari's help).
Mystics are likely to vary. The Citadel Mystics are mostly going to be working hand-in-hand with the clerics of Mishakal. As time passes many of them may convert to clerics, but this may take generations. Other mystic groups will face pressure to convert as well, notably the Skull Knights.
I think it is appropriate that one Fifth Age element, the Legion of Steel, also represents the best game agency for sorcerors and mystics. I think that the Legion is probably goign to be the biggest clearing house of sorcerors and mystics, especially suitable for PC's, on Ansalon.
It took centuries for wild magic to fade at the end of the Age of Dreams so I doubt that it is going to evaporate overnight now. More likely there will be a sometimes uneasy coexistence.
I also point out that Palin's attempt to institute sorcery in the wizard's conclave failed miserably. I always wondered why they didn't teach sorcerers at the Academy but instead taught them at Solace.
Okay......the Academy was in Solace....
Palin's Academy was the source of only Palin and Ulin's interpretation of sorcery
And every other sorcerer who went....every sorcerer at the academy was in part a teacher as well.....it was a communal learning institution...and everyone got as much as they put in.
If they hunt them down, it wouldn't take much effort for a few sorcerers to wipe out the Order of High Sorcery completely. Remember, they just lost the tower of Wayearth.
Okay....the Tower of Wayreth may be a bit damaged...but it still stands and is used.....it is being restored.....but it still is being used. By WoHS.....so...that kinda blows what you say about them losing it outta the water.
Sorcerers have always been scattered and that's why they are pretty much invincible and likely to grow. The High Wizards are centralized and regulated, sorcery spreads like wildfire amongst the LoS and other places because it's
"Quicker, Easier, More Seductive" since oh gee...NO ONE IS PREVENTING ANYONE FROM LEARNING IT.
Since when was primal sorcery portrayed as more seductive that High Sorcery..........hell....the two most powerful wizards of their time flatly said that it was nothing compared to the High Sorcery they once knew and used.
Frankly, I can't imagine sorcerers ever not outnumbering wizards. Kill one and by that time two more have been trained.
Sorcerer's still take time to train...it isn't as simple as all that....it is just not restrictive. They still have to understand how to manipulate the magic...which takes time and training
Perhaps that was Niles being a bit too "enthusiastic"...but it's too late to go back on it now...that's how it is, and so we have to deal with the consequences.
Well that's the thing about novels. They have the wider audience than the game fiction, and novel writers don't really work within the group. I can imagine that SP is annoyed somewhat by the death of Sable, given that a few of her monsters were given her name in the Bestiary of Krynn.
The people who are being hunted now, were once the heroes and saviors of a time when the Gods had abandoned the people of Krynn once again ('cause that's exactly how the common man and woman is going to see it).
They're not being hunted, ToHS makes this quite clear. They are dealing with sorcerers in a slow, deliberate and methodical manner because they don't want to start a magical war. They certainly want to convert sorcerers, but sorcerers are in all levels of society and will be for the next couple hundred years. The biggest threat to Sorcery as a whole is that they'll simply be seen as renegades and foils for the WoHS (as in Doug Niles' novel). They simply need to find flavour text outside of spontaneous casting (whether D&D or SAGA style).
That's not what the SAGA designers came up with...that's what WotC forced onto sorcerers and mystics as a retcon. They are nothing like they once were...and although I've accepted this retcon as a necessity for 3rd Edition...I'm like you in that the classes on the whole are relatively bland. 3e killed all interest in sorcerers and mystics for me...which sucks because they were my favorite part of SAGA. A new free form kind of magic...sure, it wasn't as powerful, but it was so much more useful (this, of course, coming from someone who has never been much of a fan of magic using classes).
Please Brim. Sorcerers in SAGA were people who wore little or no armour, cast spells with incantations and gestures, and studied at a magical college.
Mystics were the medics and spiritual people of the party, who studied at a temple known as the "Citadel of Light".
Just because they had a different mechanism for how they cast their spells, doesn't mean that they were a radically different class in terms of flavour text. They were still divided into arcane and divine casters for pete's sake.
Heck, you certainly had SAGA rules for Raistlin in the 25th anniversary of Dragonlance. Are you going to say that this made Raistlin any less of a wizard?
I don't know what to do about them now...their "home bases" have been destroyed, and they've been scattered...and now they'll be hunted. I don't know what to do with them anymore...
Why? Sorcerers now have 100 academies with an egalitarian approach to magical practice rather than just the 1. The Mystics can flourish wherever there is a wise teacher will to teach its non-specific, feel-good, follow-your-heart teachings.
There can be cities and nations where sorcery is encouraged. Mystics who are valued for the fact that they can save your baby from dysentary.
They aren't any worse off than when they started, and there is no storyline that you could have done with sorcerers and mystics in the 5th Age that you cannot do now.
I don't know what to do about them now...their "home bases" have been destroyed, and they've been scattered...and now they'll be hunted. I don't know what to do with them anymore...
The Citadel of Light is still there, and it's being rebuilt.
Please Brim. Sorcerers in SAGA were people who wore little or no armour, cast spells with incantations and gestures, and studied at a magical college.
Mystics were the medics and spiritual people of the party, who studied at a temple known as the "Citadel of Light".
We just had a bit of a misunderstanding of what you were talking about (well...that is I had a misunderstanding
)Just because they had a different mechanism for how they cast their spells, doesn't mean that they were a radically different class in terms of flavour text.
That's all it took for me. They weren't really split down arcane and divine anymore...it was more "elemental" energies and "spiritual" energies. You had magic that effect the surroundings, or you had magic that effected the individual. I found this interesting. (I mean, at the very least, couldn't the 3e stuff at least changed their spell lists to match the pre-WoS sorcerer/mystic?)
They aren't any worse off than when they started, and there is no storyline that you could have done with sorcerers and mystics in the 5th Age that you cannot do now.
Except...now that they truly are just "arcane and divine casters" revisited...I don't find them interesting anymore...and I'm still stuck where we started in that...I don't really know what to do with them anymore.
The Citadel of Light is still there, and it's being rebuilt.
For the Mishikites, not the mystics.
The Academy was where the Majeres were and the Majeres are Solace. Call me crazy but that's just what I feel :-)And every other sorcerer who went....every sorcerer at the academy was in part a teacher as well.....it was a communal learning institution...and everyone got as much as they put in.
Suddenly, an adventure we played makes perfect sense. A bunch of outlaws (ex-Knights of Nekara) around the Academy of Sorcery had decided to destroy the place and we with a Ex-Veteran, Half Plainsman, tough as nails hombre were sent to defend the curiously helpless magicians from their depredations even when they wanted to peacefully deal with them despite their evil.
Yes, we played The Legend of Billy Jack apparently on Krynn.
Of course, I DMed our massacre of it.Okay....the Tower of Wayreth may be a bit damaged...but it still stands and is used.....it is being restored.....but it still is being used. By WoHS.....so...that kinda blows what you say about them losing it outta the water.
Forgive me, but wasn't the Tower Master killed? The very soul of the Tower of Wayearth? You might as well just build a new building if you destroy what makes the Tower the Tower.Since when was primal sorcery portrayed as more seductive that High Sorcery..........hell....the two most powerful wizards of their time flatly said that it was nothing compared to the High Sorcery they once knew and used.
That's because the two had already spent DECADES of studying their texts and learning all their metamagic feats that make Wizards so cool to a certain extent. Sorcerers can spontaneously cast and don't have to be erudite and educated book worms....those two were the EPTIMONE of educated bookworms.
* Sorcerers simply have to learn their spells by spontaneous creation
* Sorcerers do not have to lug around their giant books or be exhausted fools
* Sorcerers can still drain magical items I believe though that may now be a feat
* Sorcerers do not have to pledge their allegiance to the Three Moons
* Sorcerers do not have to take incredibly dangerous (percieved) Tests to determine whether they are fit to work magic
* They do not have to join a Secret Society that says Good, Evil, and Neutrality are equal, a secret society that will kill you if you step out of line
They don't get the science benefits and lack the "make magic wand" etc feats.
They DO however have their own benefits.Sorcerer's still take time to train...it isn't as simple as all that....it is just not restrictive. They still have to understand how to manipulate the magic...which takes time and training
Yes, but now its
"Hey Fred the Fighter, want to learn how to be a magician?"
"Sure"
"It'll take a lot of study."
"I'm game"
Vs.
"IMPUDENT MORTAL! YOU CANNOT EVEN CONCIEVE OF THE MYSTERIES I AM PRIVY TO! THE VERY IDEA A MAN WHO WOULD WIELD HARD STEEL WOULD TRY TO LEARN MAGIC..."
"Geez, I just wanted to throw lighting when I wasn't fighting up close.."
Mystics are wild and draw their energies from the NATURAL world.
How's that work?
I also point out Mystics are cool for people who believe in the divinity of the Dragons or Dragon overlords, cults, or general concepts rather than the "gods" of Krynn. I still say the Seeker faith is the best place to put Mystics.
Another idea is to make Mystics the priests of Majere, they however are Buddhist like monks who achieve INNER power instead of trying to gain it from outer power.
That's all it took for me. They weren't really split down arcane and divine anymore...it was more "elemental" energies and "spiritual" energies.
Well I can bring that back with a skill and feat based magic system. If what you really want is "elemental" energies and "spiritual energies" that's a snap. The elemental magic isn't really a problem. All that requires is creating solid matter, and causing damaging spells. (ie. Wall of Fire, Fireball). Like I said though, things like summoning will be more difficult to do this way. Plus, I don't get how it is wild sorcery when it can pretty much do what wizardry can do, with the same subtlety.
Now Mysticism is a lot tricker. It is more difficult to do it with a skill with some spheres. For example, animism is where you shapechange, control plants, talk to animals, and all the other nature related stuff. So in order to make the magic into a skill check I would have to divide things by effect. My schools would be
1) Telepathy (mind reaming and reading)
2) Channeling (shapechange and buffing)
3) Animalism (controlling plants and animals)
4) Healing (Healing)
5) Necromancy (Controlling Spirits and animating corpses)
I'm afraid there simply isn't enough game effects to justify spiritualism, because it is essentially only an augury or contact other plane spell. A cleric gets those for free and doesn't have to lug them around when they aren't useful.
Another option would be to have prestige classes that use feats which simulate spell creation, and having a pool of points you could draw upon. The problem with this is that it is no longer less powerful magic (since you apply for it at higher levels through a prestige class). So it isn't the less powerful magic that people of all classes can pick up a little bit of. You essentially multiclass as a sorcerer. This I might be able to duplicate all the spheres of sorcery and mysticism as is, but I would also have to chuck mishaps as a mechanic.
I think it would be truer to the SAGA rules to use the first option myself.
Except...now that they truly are just "arcane and divine casters" revisited...I don't find them interesting anymore...and I'm still stuck where we started in that...I don't really know what to do with them anymore.
Are you sure are more mad about sorcery and mysticism being changed, and more mad about the Wizards of High Sorcery coming back?
Well I can bring that back with a skill and feat based magic system. If what you really want is "elemental" energies and "spiritual energies" that's a snap.
Dude...I think you're gonna make me cry from frustration...
Are you sure are more mad about sorcery and mysticism being changed, and more mad about the Wizards of High Sorcery coming back?
I'm not quite sure what you were meaning to say here but, I am more upset about the fact that sorcery and mysticism are not what they used to be. I don't have any problem with High Sorcery being back.
Dude...I think you're gonna make me cry from frustration...
Well that's the closest I can get to creating spells on the fly that I can get without going right back to SAGA.
Tell you what. I'll work on getting this done in a way I think it can work over the next couple weeks. I'll hand it over to you to see what you think about it, and what improvements could be made to get that "old sorcery feeling".
Then I'll see if we can get Sovereign Press to look at it. I make no promises though. I mean, they don't really like me. ;)
I'm not quite sure what you were meaning to say here but, I am more upset about the fact that sorcery and mysticism are not what they used to be. I don't have any problem with High Sorcery being back.
Okay, but then Sorcery is going to have to change in order to accomidate the Wizards. They were here first after all, and currently command the most interest.
So now we have to think about sorcery in terms of what can distinguish them from Wizards. I will make the claim that the game mechanic, even if we get it working again, isn't enough. Even with the skill and feat system, you could still find wizards who could fill the same character roles.
See that's why I don't mourn the loss of the academy. It emphasizes that sorcerers don't need books to study, in contrast to wizards. It emphasizes that they have innate talent rather than learned talent. I also think the independant nature also contrasts with the highly organized conclave. If the Academy was still around, wouldn't it seem like just another Tower of High Sorcery?
However, what else can we do besides what is in the class description of the PHB to make sorcerers special?
The fundamental problem with Sorcery is that it is a wizard tradition that just isn't as interesting as the WoHS.
Maybe I'll be able to reply to this one once I stop laughing, because I think that one comment ruined any chance of a serious converstaion for me.
Maybe I'll be able to reply to this one once I stop laughing, because I think that one comment ruined any chance of a serious converstaion for me.
Well, I realize that that comment is subjective... but I still haven't got any answer to what makes sorcerers different? other than "they cast spells on the fly" and "they have magic that affects unliving things".
That's game mechanics. Why should I care? If I take the game mechanics for casting prepared spells from the Wizards of High Sorcery, they would still have other bits of flavour text that makes them unique.
Even with the PHB sorcerers, the idea of alien bloodlines makes them interesting beyond their method of spellcasting.
So what makes the sorcerers of Krynn interesting beyond their rules mechanisms?
Are they all slightly mad from using wild magic? Does the magic gradually transform them? Is the magic raw and brutal unlike the specific effects brought about by the incantations of the WoHS? Give me something to gain an iconic image of the Krynnish sorcerer other than "like a wizard, but casts spells on the fly".
I don't see why they would do it. What's in it for them? At least with White Robes they have some guarantee of Good behavior. Sorcerors, by their very nature, are more independent. Not a virtue the Solamnics are fond of.
I don't see the Knights doing this just so that they can become official bodyguards for sorcerors looking to avoid problems with the Wizards of High Sorcery. Especially since this would be imitating the organizational model of their rivals the Knights of Neraka, who rely on mystics and sorcerors.
As a side note to Charles, the Master of the Tower of Wayreth was not killed. You need to re-read the last chapter of Wizard's Conclave. He was the one who vetoed Coryn's bid to lead the Conclave.
Forgive me, but wasn't the Tower Master killed? The very soul of the Tower of Wayearth? You might as well just build a new building if you destroy what makes the Tower the Tower.
No, he wasn't killed. Note Psionycx's post above mine.....friggin beat me to it ;)
Well, I realize that that comment is subjective... but I still haven't got any answer to what makes sorcerers different? other than "they cast spells on the fly" and "they have magic that affects unliving things".
Sorcerers and people who use sorcery are intelligent people. Intelligent and in touch with their surroundings, more so than most people. They view magic as an art, or an artform if you will. To confine it to specific words, gestures, and components is to take away the beauty of the magic. Magic is a personal thing...everyone has their own way of viewing it, using it, and understanding it. Palin's Academy of Sorcery was viewed more like a meeting of philosophers. No one was teaching exact facts and knowlege, they were sharing personal truths and understandings of this new magic with each other which allowed it to grow within everyone who was willing to be flexible.
Some sorcerers are former wizards who can't let go of the science aspect of wizardry. And this was fine, as some wizards would create the semantics and words of the previous spells...those things themselves were not powering the spell, the sorcerer was...but using those old semantics and words helped them concentrate.
Sorcerers use semantics and materials and words as pneumonic devices...but they are not necessary for the spell to work. They create each spell anew...every time they cast it.
If Sorcerers are the philosophers of magic, then Wizards are the scholars of it. Each spell is a specifc equation of words, semantics, and materials to elicit the same magical response every time they cast a spell. Wizardry is an exact science...one that must be studied and practiced to perfection. It is very structured, and very critical of versatility.
Anyway...I know this doesn't really work so much with new game mechanics...but to me, that's really the major difference. The difference between structured science and versatile art. It's a difference in view point of the magic...nevermind that the two magics aren't really the same anyway...the major difference between the two spell casters is really just philosophies.
Does that even make sense to anyone but me?
We just got done with a huge battle over changing the Knights too much. Now there's a movement to make them toss aside their piety and embrace godless magic, more for the benefit of the sorcerors than for their own?
I don't see why they would do it. What's in it for them? At least with White Robes they have some guarantee of Good behavior. Sorcerors, by their very nature, are more independent. Not a virtue the Solamnics are fond of.
I don't see the Knights doing this just so that they can become official bodyguards for sorcerors looking to avoid problems with the Wizards of High Sorcery. Especially since this would be imitating the organizational model of their rivals the Knights of Neraka, who rely on mystics and sorcerors.
As a side note to Charles, the Master of the Tower of Wayreth was not killed. You need to re-read the last chapter of Wizard's Conclave. He was the one who vetoed Coryn's bid to lead the Conclave.
Like I said, I know it would never be used. Over and above that, we have seen the KoS take desperate measures before even proposing an alliance with the Knights of Takhisis/Neraka as the realized they must evolve are fade away. I propsed a possibility, I didn't raelize that their was "a huge battle over changing the Knighthood". In my scenario the KoS welcome sorcerers as they realize that the gods have been absent twice in the past century and can be seen as unreliable because of that, as well as having a grudging respect for their enemy, realizing that some of their ideas could be incorporated to their way of thinking, much like Ariakan did. my apologies for throwing out the idea.
Joining the Legion of Steel isn't appropriate for all characters. What about a person whose a Knight and noble born? Will Linsha Majere lose her knighthood because she prefers to be a mystic than a cleric? What about others who wish to train in mysticism?
"I don't want to be a cleric, I'll serve Majere in my own way!"
"HERETIC!"
Psionyx's arguement does ring hollow in some respects that a Sorcerer may wish to be a Knight Auxillary but refuses to join the Wizards of High Sorcery because he's a dire enemy of all evil and would never be able treat evil as equal to good or put "magic first"
Magic is a tool to him, not a mistress.
This guy is being afflicted with baseless prejudice, especially if he was a great hero beforehand.
I think you'd prefer a world where Sorcerers and Wizards of High Sorcery could be one in the same with the difference in their approaches to magic rather than the hate some seem to irrationally feel. Ditto Knight Auxillary and other magicians.
Mystics could be welcomed at clerics but have powerful bases of their own and faithful
I.e. Buddhism vs. Christianity
They're both paths to enlightenment
Am I right?
However, I realize that the only reason to pick them to be sorcerers rather than Red or Black Robed wizards is because they have a backstory of being the children of Sivak draconians born in Sanctions brothels.
I understand that the Legion of Steel, The Knights of Nereka, and the Solamnic Knights can recruit sorcerers into their ranks. However, it is just as likely that they could recruit wizards into their ranks. If you wanted to, Nuitari could make nice with his father Sargonnas, and they could fill the ranks of the Thorn and Skull knights with their followers. The thing is, while Wizards of High Sorcery are defined by their organization, sorcerers are not.
What I am looking for is a character concept that sorcerers can be, but wizards cannot. I used the standard PHB example of a sorcerous bloodline, but does anybody have any other ideas? This applies to both the D&D and SAGA versions of Sorcerers.
If I wanted to use sorcerers, I'd use these concepts....
Dragon Magus- A child of an offspring between a Silver Dragon and a Human, you were born a human being but capable of wielding draconic sorcery. Raised by your mother, you now seek your parent race and to bring Dragons to become brothers of men rather than recluses.
Use Draconimicron, you can't have "high wizardry" or you lose the sorcerer flavor.
Chaos Priest- Not exactly for the faint hearted, you have pledged yourself to Iolanthes and while he doesn't answer your prayers he's provided you with sorcery. Tear it down! Tear down all of Krynn's corrupt and venal institutions!
Bring the new order (or anarchy or oblivion)!
Would be Divinity- Raistlin Majere and the Kingpriest were secretly sorcerers and Mystics (non canon but it makes sense). You seek to overthrow the gods or a god and thus study mysticism and sorcery for said power.
Sorcerer King- You are a would be ruler of the world and wish to establish a new order in the world of Faerun void of the gods and with you as their leader, mystics who worship you gain spells so you MUST be a god!
With the power of sorcery you will topple the old order and empower a true age of mortals!
High Wizard hunter- You know the persecution of the three robes on those born with magic, you therefore take the fight to them and have trained well in hunting down them to protect sorcerers and thus are constantly on the move for their protection.
You may someday found your own order of Sorcery.
Firestarter- You were born with sorcery in your veins and its lead to tragic accidents, killing your family. Your power grows though every day and without your consent as new power comes to you.
They call you renegade but you were BORN this way.
Psionyx's arguement does ring hollow in some respects that a Sorcerer may wish to be a Knight Auxillary but refuses to join the Wizards of High Sorcery because he's a dire enemy of all evil and would never be able treat evil as equal to good or put "magic first"
So the Knights should also just take on Rogues? Bards? Any character class that feels an inclination to sign up simply because they have useful skills?
Again, that describes the Legion of Steel, not the Knights of Solamnia. Who never considered their accomodation of the Knights of Neraka as anything more than a temporary step.
Also, the Knight's view of the gods is getting higher, not lower. Paladine's willingnness to sacrifice his godhood for the cause of Good sends a powerful message of just how "reliable" the gods really are.
While the Knights are not bashing mystics, largely because the clerics of Mishakal are vouching for them, they do have a preference for tradition over innovation and hence they prefer godly magic over wild magic.
I think that conceptually sorcerors are more likely to be true multi-class characters than WoHS, who have restrictions on their multi-classing. So "spellsword" warrior-spellcasters for example are more likely to be sorcerors than wizards. Spellfilches (sorceror-rogues) are another likely option with a PrC.
So the Knights should also just take on Rogues? Bards? Any character class that feels an inclination to sign up simply because they have useful skills?
And if the Sorcerers believe strongly in the Oath and the Measure. Believe in honor above all things and if their conflict with joining the Orders of High Sorcery is BECAUSE they refuse to LOWER themselves to do it? If that person during the Age of mortals showed himself to be a man of indescribable character and upstanding moral virtue?
If that person would be one of the very reason the Knights have come to tolerate magic?
Again, that describes the Legion of Steel, not the Knights of Solamnia. Who never considered their accomodation of the Knights of Neraka as anything more than a temporary step.
And if the sorcerer in question describes the Legion of Steel as a collection of rogues, vagrants, and scalawags that know nothing of honor and human decency beyond their own petty conceptions?
Also, the Knight's view of the gods is getting higher, not lower. Paladine's willingnness to sacrifice his godhood for the cause of Good sends a powerful message of just how "reliable" the gods really are.
"Because I study enlightenment that was once a REQUIREMENT here I must switch and disregard all those teachings?"
While the Knights are not bashing mystics, largely because the clerics of Mishakal are vouching for them, they do have a preference for tradition over innovation and hence they prefer godly magic over wild magic.
I'm for traditionalists, I'm just not saying its cut and dry.
I think that conceptually sorcerors are more likely to be true multi-class characters than WoHS, who have restrictions on their multi-classing. So "spellsword" warrior-spellcasters for example are more likely to be sorcerors than wizards. Spellfilches (sorceror-rogues) are another likely option with a PrC.
Agreed, why sorcery will far outnumber High Wizardry in my opinion.
I also don't think its ever "going away"
If I wanted to use sorcerers, I'd use these concepts....
Mr. Phipps, this is exactly what I'm talking about, thanks for getting me.
Dragon Magus- A child of an offspring between a Silver Dragon and a Human, you were born a human being but capable of wielding draconic sorcery.
Well, Dragon-human offspring aren't allowed in Dragonlance. Supposedly the reasoning is that "It makes it tragic if Humans and Dragons cannot have children". Personally I think the chances for tragedy can multiply with children. ;)
However, I'm getting around this by allowing Sivak and Aurak Draconians, since they both have a natural polymorph ability, to have human children. They are dragon-men already after all. Dragonspawn would be another excellent means of introducing draconic blood.
Of course there is also the chance for being descended from the Genies, the Fey, Demons, and Monstrous Humanoids.
Chaos Priest- Not exactly for the faint hearted, you have pledged yourself to Iolanthes and while he doesn't answer your prayers he's provided you with sorcery. Tear it down! Tear down all of Krynn's corrupt and venal institutions!
Hmm... could we do this with a renegade wizard? If not, this might be an option. Certainly fits if you give him an item that entropy's wizard magic.
Would be Divinity
Sorcerer King
You could definately do these two options with Wizards, though they would have to be renegades.
Firestarter- You were born with sorcery in your veins and its lead to tragic accidents, killing your family. Your power grows though every day and without your consent as new power comes to you.
Now this one I think is the one I like the best. It is something you couldn't do with a wizard, even a renegade one.
Agreed, why sorcery will far outnumber High Wizardry in my opinion.
I also don't think its ever "going away"
It will when the energies of Chaos decline and fade as they did at the end of the Age of Dreams, but that will take a while. You couldn't use primal sorcery or mysticism during the Ages of Might or Despair even if you wanted to. There are ultimately limitations on wild magic.
Also, it still has to be learned and mastered, and in that regard can be as challenging as High Sorcery. It is not "quicker, easier, more seductive". If it were it wouldn't have taken Takhisis (the Shadow Sorceror) to point it out to people. Few really learned primal sorcery independently. Palin, the Shadow Sorceror and the Master of the Tower worked out the principles and founded the Academy of Sorcery. The Thorn Knights infiltrated the Academy and stole the knowledge that allowed them to establish their own sorcerous art. Even Jenna, picking it up from Palin, worked as a teacher. The really successful sorcerors of the Fifth Age are the ones that approached primal sorcery as a science not unlike the way wizards approach High Sorcery. So it's not going to just be a question of sorcerors popping up like weeds all over the place. Unlike regular D&D, Dragonlance does not equate sorcery with special bloodlines and instant untrained power.
I am sure a lot of people are committed to the Knights ideals. That doesn't mean the Knights recruit them. Also, what does it say about a person's piety (a virtue very important to Knights of Solamnia) if they insist on only serving the gods in name but not giving up their independence by relying on their magic? Sounds to me like someone who says they love you but don't want to marry you, someone that doesn't believe in commitment.
Also consider that not every sorceror is going to be running around eagerly sharing the secrets of their power. Many of the original advocates of primal sorcery, like Palin and Jenna, are now either retired or practicing god magic again. Others, like the Knights of the Thorn, still want commitment to an organization (their own) from would-be apprentices.
And again, while gods may not be actively smacking down sorcerors, they will actively encourage people to adopt High Sorcery instead of primal sorcery and will probably provide additional power to their followers to erect schools and new Towers. And just the way a lot of people prefer to status and security of being employed by prestigious corporation over being a freelance worker, many people will flock to the Orders specifically because they have an organization.
You see the problem as essentially sorcerers and mystics being demonized for being the heroes of the Age of mortals. Mystics were servants of the gods and honorable beings along with sorcerers. Now by virtue of their preference for what type of magic they use vs. the content of their character are they being judged.
Joining the Legion of Steel isn't appropriate for all characters. What about a person whose a Knight and noble born? Will Linsha Majere lose her knighthood because she prefers to be a mystic than a cleric? What about others who wish to train in mysticism?
"I don't want to be a cleric, I'll serve Majere in my own way!"
"HERETIC!"
Psionyx's arguement does ring hollow in some respects that a Sorcerer may wish to be a Knight Auxillary but refuses to join the Wizards of High Sorcery because he's a dire enemy of all evil and would never be able treat evil as equal to good or put "magic first"
Magic is a tool to him, not a mistress.
This guy is being afflicted with baseless prejudice, especially if he was a great hero beforehand.
I think you'd prefer a world where Sorcerers and Wizards of High Sorcery could be one in the same with the difference in their approaches to magic rather than the hate some seem to irrationally feel. Ditto Knight Auxillary and other magicians.
Mystics could be welcomed at clerics but have powerful bases of their own and faithful
I.e. Buddhism vs. Christianity
They're both paths to enlightenment
Am I right?
I think you very eloquently put into words what I struggled to say
So the Knights should also just take on Rogues? Bards? Any character class that feels an inclination to sign up simply because they have useful skills?
Again, that describes the Legion of Steel, not the Knights of Solamnia. Who never considered their accomodation of the Knights of Neraka as anything more than a temporary step.
Also, the Knight's view of the gods is getting higher, not lower. Paladine's willingnness to sacrifice his godhood for the cause of Good sends a powerful message of just how "reliable" the gods really are.
While the Knights are not bashing mystics, largely because the clerics of Mishakal are vouching for them, they do have a preference for tradition over innovation and hence they prefer godly magic over wild magic.
I think that conceptually sorcerors are more likely to be true multi-class characters than WoHS, who have restrictions on their multi-classing. So "spellsword" warrior-spellcasters for example are more likely to be sorcerors than wizards. Spellfilches (sorceror-rogues) are another likely option with a PrC.
But haven't thay taken members that have less than credible pasts but useful skills and in the process "redeemed them". There's a knight in the Linsha trilogy that used to be a street brawler. I don't remember for certainn, but didn't Galen Pathwarden become a knight. Then there is Pirvan the Wayward and the Wayward Knights. Those are all I could think of off teh top of my head.
The power of Sorcery can also be likened to Preserving and Defiling from Black Sun...
Dark Sun. Black Sun is a crime syndicate in Star Wars. ;)
They weren't really split down arcane and divine anymore...it was more "elemental" energies and "spiritual" energies. You had magic that effect the surroundings, or you had magic that effected the individual.
I like this theme as well, although I don't think it has to be mutually exclusive from arcane/divine.
I know I'm approaching this from a D&D perspective, but I like how the Academy Sorcerer and Citadel Mystic work out. Plus, if you want to customize your sorcerer or mystic in another way, you can.
For the Mishikites, not the mystics.
For both.
If Sorcerers are the philosophers of magic, then Wizards are the scholars of it.
Wow. I think that just sums it all up. I think you also mentioned how sorcerers are "artists of magic", which seems to fit them well too.
Mystics could be welcomed at clerics but have powerful bases of their own and faithful
I.e. Buddhism vs. Christianity
They're both paths to enlightenment
Am I right?
That's sort of how I look at it. Clerics have a direct connection to the gods, and it is through their deity that they seek enlightenment. Mystics look within. Both are valid paths.
Okay, here's some thoughts from me.
Focused (godly) magic is a type of magic that requires dedication, and a covenant. For clerics, it's simple worship, but for the WoHS, it's a full dedication to the craft and study of magic.
Ambient magic is what I sometimes refer to as "everyman" magic. This is the magic of the world that mortals can tap into without having to dedicate oneself to a god.
The magic of High Sorcery is a science. It's pretty cut-and-dry. You study spells, and those are the ones you can cast the next day. Wild Sorcery, on the other hand, is an art with multiple schools of thought. The Academy of Sorcery's teachings are the most prominent, but are not the only ways to tackle wild magic.
Wizards also tend to be more lawful, while sorcerers tend to be more chaotic. I think this is due to Chaos' influence on wild magic.
The types of organizations that these spellcasters are drawn to are also different. Wizards would flock towards organizations that have a strong emphasis on the gods, while sorcerers and mystics would tend to join organizations that champion the common man, such as the Legion of Steel.
Also consider how each class may be approached by a commoner. A sorcerer may very well be trusted over one of the aloof and mysterious Wizards of High Sorcery.
I think prestige classes can also shape how each one of these classes are shaped. For example, the archmage seems to be a perfect fit for the WoHS, while the arcane trickster seems a better fit for sorcerers.
I could also see sorcerers being able to tap into the energies of creatures with innate spellcasting ability, such as how a dragon mage can tap into the magic of a dragon. I'm not sure I would allow that with a wizard.
I could see some new PrCs being developed that would help to emphasize certain themes of the sorcerer. For example, a wild mage may tap into the very power of Chaos itself, while Charles' firestarter idea could help to emphasize the elemental themes of sorcerers.
I think there's plenty of flavor for sorcerers. They may not wear colored robes, gain their magic from the moons, or live in tall towers, but they have a charm that is all their own. The individuality coupled with their artistic expression of magic makes for some great role-playing and story potential.
But haven't thay taken members that have less than credible pasts but useful skills and in the process "redeemed them". There's a knight in the Linsha trilogy that used to be a street brawler. I don't remember for certainn, but didn't Galen Pathwarden become a knight. Then there is Pirvan the Wayward and the Wayward Knights. Those are all I could think of off teh top of my head.
And you don't see a difference between warrior types and spellcasters? Because most Knights will. And while individual association with a sorceror may not be considered an infraction, there is still no clear rationale for welcoming sorcerors, as a group, into the Knighthood beyond the fact that the sorcerors need muscle to keep the wizards off their backs.
That is not what the Knights of Solamnia see as their purpose in the world.
Plus prudent wizards will play up the fact that Solinari is Kiri-Jolith's and Habbakuk's brother, and Paladine's and Mishakal's son, which can be parlayed into substantial theological coin.
The sorcerors have nothing to offer but their independence from the gods, something that is not seen as huge virtue by the Knights.
I do think, however, that there is a misconception here that High Sorcery is sterile and scientific whereas primal sorcery is passionate and creative.
Yet all the previous Fifth Age materials, and all the Fourth Age stuff, contradict this notion. Indeed, it was in the SAGA game materials that the elemental nature of primal sorcery made it seem "hard and cold", especially to ex-wizards who were accustomed to the ecstatic experience of feeling High Sorcery.
Indeed, descriptions of wielding High Sorcery were always intensely physical. Not just an abstract mental experience of memorizing spells, speaking words, making gestures and waving components around and then watching fireworks go off. The senation of your blood burning in your veins, tingling through your body, of magic words sparkling like fine wine on your tongue. Those are the descriptions of how High Sorcery feels. Indeed, many ex-wizards never got into primal sorcery because it often didn't compare with that experience. Like drug addicts offered a lower-potency substitute in an attempt to wean them off the stuff, many couldn't accept the lesser experience. But it is not just a dispassionate mental process. And note that Dalamar, not one to deny himself gratification, went straight back to it the first chance he had.
Sorcerors are likely to be people who don't favor rigid organizations or who consciously want to avoid the gods (one reason I don't think they'd fit well into the Knights of Solamnia). This is a key point. The Gods of Magic had to plot and scheme and trick their way into introducing arcane magic into the world at all. Most of the other gods saw no need for it, preferring to give such magic as they deemed necessary directly to clerics. Most will still not trust sorcerors, thinking them too independent.
But that does make the sorcerors more prone to humanist goals. Mind you, that doesn't mean that they will be Good. The greed and acquisitiveness of the Knights of Neraka is very humanist after all. So sorcerors will have a less predictable role in events than wizards, who as a group have a stated mission and as individual Orders are linked clearly to ideologies.
Well, perhaps many of you do. I was as staunch a SAGA and Fifth Age fan as could be imagined. But I don't mind the changes that have happened to sorcerers and mystics in the Post WoS. Why? Let me break it down.
Game-wise:
I don't play DL anymore. I do play a homebrew D&D game, however, and I kno the difference between sorcerers and wizards. There's no competition in my book; wizards are nothing compared to sorcerers. Yes, they can hold more spells at the ready and yes, they have a much greater access to spells. Granted.
But a sorcerers spontaneous nature - just the fact that if he really needs to whip out a maximized Sleep spell at any random moment - takes the cake. Flexibility over quanitity any day. In DL, I feel the same.
And mystics? Please. I'd take a mystic over a cleric anyday. I love clerics; don't get me wrong. But looser restrictions? The lack of organizational responsibility? Spontaneous spells?!?
I've learned that spontaneous spells can save a character's a** in ways you wouldn't believe. Especially ways that Capt. Memorization would have ended up as ground chuck.
Story-wise:
There's too many sorcerers and mystics. Goldmoon was a mystic. Palin was a sorcerer. They taught too many people and accomplished too much to have it all fade. Screw the WoHS - yes, they're back, but they're rebuildiing in a world that is already populated to the gills with sorcerers. Good sorcerers, bad sorcerers; it's all the same. Same with the mystics and clerics.
And if the Gods - any Gods - have a problem that Krynn's mortal populations found a way to enrich their lives that didn't come from a divine source, SCREW 'EM!
I feel that sorcery and mysticism are here to stay. I know I'll be picking those two over the stodgy holdovers from other Ages anyday.
Summary: So Wizard's Conclave presented the WoHS's take on the thing. All right. What's the more numerous sorcerous take on it? There isn't one because they're not unified. Unfortunately, neither are the mystics much anymore.
The game products have handled it well (aside from some obvious bias in multiclassing restrictions). A PHB sorcerer? A spontaneous divine caster? Works for me - I don't mind the retcon because I accept that things change and that's the way it works. And I think with their inclusion in the game, they are secured for games for a long, long time to come.
And for concepts, Ferratus?
Wizards lock the words to a spell in their minds. The burn the power into themselves, then trigger it in a rush of ecstacy and arcane joy.
Sorcerers do feel the same rush, but they have no need to lock or burn anything into their minds. They reach out with their intellect and will and shove aside the mundane. They touch the fluid ambient magic that surrounds Krynn like an embryotic shell and they part it - and as they part it, they touch the truest, raw power that shaped the world.
Peace all. :D
Peace.
They have themselves and possibly an intense faith in Kiri-Jonilith or Majere or Habbuluk or whomever. Their magic comes from Krynn and only has the unlikely to be spread rumors about Chaos taint.
Knights of the Crown have no divine magic, what is the difference between sorcery and a sword really if the heart is pure?
The sorcerors have nothing to offer but their independence from the gods, something that is not seen as huge virtue by the Knights.
They have themselves and possibly an intense faith in Kiri-Jonilith or Majere or Habbuluk or whomever. Their magic comes from Krynn and only has the unlikely to be spread rumors about Chaos taint.
Knights of the Crown have no divine magic, what is the difference between sorcery and a sword really if the heart is pure?
If that logic is applied then, again, I ask why aren't rogues, bards, mariners, etc accepted as Knights of the Crown?
It sounds like you're trying to turn the Knights of Solamnia into the Legion of Steel, arguing that class restrictions and such are irrelevent as long as the character is "committed" to the "ideals" of the organization, a very Legion attitude. But the Lawful aspect of the Knights requires more guidelines than that. They relaxed their entry rules somewhat, but not that much. Why not just waive the divine spellcasting requirements for the Knights of the Sword and Rose entirely and just let anyone advance into the upper orders?
Also, you can spin it any way you like, but primal sorcery is derived from Chaos. It has not yet been allowed to grow in power to the point where a disaster like that from the Age of Dreams has been repeated, but the possibility remains.
In addition, so what if a sorceror claims to be a "believer"? A similar claim of good intentions was made by the Thorn Knights that infliltrated Palin's Academy to steal knowledge of sorcery in the first place. They managed to move unnoticed amongst the sorcerors of the Academy for a significant amount of time, long enough to make off with considerable knowledge. Given their ties to Palin, it's not unlikely that the Knights are unaware of this. They most definitely are not unaware of the corrupt mystics that stole the teachings of Goldmoon's Citadel of Light and adapted them to darker ends.
Now more than ever the Knights have cause to be suspicious of ungodly magic. The Knights of Neraka profitted immensely from the freedom from oversight that wild magic provided when they stole secrets of sorcery and mysticism while disguised as good-hearted people.
And you don't see a difference between warrior types and spellcasters? Because most Knights will. And while individual association with a sorceror may not be considered an infraction, there is still no clear rationale for welcoming sorcerors, as a group, into the Knighthood beyond the fact that the sorcerors need muscle to keep the wizards off their backs.
That is not what the Knights of Solamnia see as their purpose in the world.
Plus prudent wizards will play up the fact that Solinari is Kiri-Jolith's and Habbakuk's brother, and Paladine's and Mishakal's son, which can be parlayed into substantial theological coin.
The sorcerors have nothing to offer but their independence from the gods, something that is not seen as huge virtue by the Knights.
I do think, however, that there is a misconception here that High Sorcery is sterile and scientific whereas primal sorcery is passionate and creative.
Yet all the previous Fifth Age materials, and all the Fourth Age stuff, contradict this notion. Indeed, it was in the SAGA game materials that the elemental nature of primal sorcery made it seem "hard and cold", especially to ex-wizards who were accustomed to the ecstatic experience of feeling High Sorcery.
Indeed, descriptions of wielding High Sorcery were always intensely physical. Not just an abstract mental experience of memorizing spells, speaking words, making gestures and waving components around and then watching fireworks go off. The senation of your blood burning in your veins, tingling through your body, of magic words sparkling like fine wine on your tongue. Those are the descriptions of how High Sorcery feels. Indeed, many ex-wizards never got into primal sorcery because it often didn't compare with that experience. Like drug addicts offered a lower-potency substitute in an attempt to wean them off the stuff, many couldn't accept the lesser experience. But it is not just a dispassionate mental process. And note that Dalamar, not one to deny himself gratification, went straight back to it the first chance he had.
Sorcerors are likely to be people who don't favor rigid organizations or who consciously want to avoid the gods (one reason I don't think they'd fit well into the Knights of Solamnia). This is a key point. The Gods of Magic had to plot and scheme and trick their way into introducing arcane magic into the world at all. Most of the other gods saw no need for it, preferring to give such magic as they deemed necessary directly to clerics. Most will still not trust sorcerors, thinking them too independent.
But that does make the sorcerors more prone to humanist goals. Mind you, that doesn't mean that they will be Good. The greed and acquisitiveness of the Knights of Neraka is very humanist after all. So sorcerors will have a less predictable role in events than wizards, who as a group have a stated mission and as individual Orders are linked clearly to ideologies.
No rationalization to bring spell casters to their ranks? Did I not say that it is possible for the knights to see what Ariakan did, learn from it and apply his strategies to their own plans? Considering he kicked the crap out of them, would it not be possible for the KoS to learn from there mistakes? So much for trying to be constructive and like at something from another point of view, I realize what i suggested is not going to happen and is a rather bizarre concept but its an IDEA. Nothing more. If you like your knighthood stagnant Psionycx, you are welcome to it. Let them remain as unchanging and rigid as they have allways been. It's worked so well in the past
If that logic is applied then, again, I ask why aren't rogues, bards, mariners, etc accepted as Knights of the Crown?
And is I stated earlier Rogues had been invited into the ranks of the knighthood, again citing Pirvan the Wayward as my Precedent. But lets go even further. Do you think their is not one member of the Clandestine Circle that does not have the bards acting skills or maybe disguise? These traits I would think, would be required to work under cover, but agin that's just me.
So, given teh exceptions the knighthood has made before, are you saying it would be out of the realm of possibility for them to wake up, smell the Kefre, join the age of mortals and revise their ideas? I mean they came very close to joining with their enemis as teh Knights of Sancrist Isle in the Rose and the Skull. The knights have evolved to an extent, shouldn't they continue? They've allowed mystics to join their ranks who do not follow gods during "the time of teh Overlords" so why not sorcerers
The Legion of Steel are honorless rangers and your attempt to turn a man who practices internal magic into some stain on a man's reputation is insulting to the lawful and good sorcerers who protected the Solamnia along with the Knighthood during the God absence.
What about praytell a Knight who fills the class of Knight of the Crown requirements yet has a few extent sorcerer levels?
You may see the Orders as conceding to Evil, but that is only the case within the Towers. Out in the world a White Robe can blast a Black Robe to ashes without hesitation or fear of the Conclave. That's explicitly stated in the 3rd Foundation of Magic.
So going back to my earlier point, why should the Knighthood go along with this? They have access to arcane spellcasters that are willing to commit to the gods rather than asserting independence.
This cross-references the thread that was about the Knights of Solamnia a while back. The clandestine circle is not the exemplar of the Knighthood and there is question of how much they're really in tune with Knightly ideals and the Measure. If the Knights want to just turn into the Legion of Steel they certainly could, but with the return of the gods a lot of the compromises that they made during the desperate times earlier in the Fifth Age are no longer necessary.
The Knights can, in this new era, have godly spellcasters (being a White Robe is a prerequisite for the Solamnic Auxilliary Mage PrC) to provide magical support. So they are hedging their bets against the Knights of Neraka's arcane arm.
However, given that the Knights of Neraka make extensive use of sorcerors, and the fact that infiltrators from the Thorn Knights were used against the Academy of Sorcery, there's not a compelling argument for why the Knights could or should accept sorcerors at their word.
Primarily because they don't need to. The establishment of the Solamnic Auxilliary Mages (a PrC in Age of Mortals ) brings White Robes into the equation, thus providing the Knights with magical support, by wizards that are at least manifestly committed to Good and to a Good god by tangible measures rather than just vague assurances.
Do White Wizards lose their magic if they turn evil? No, otherwise Renegades wouldn't exist. The idea that they are more regulated is also ridiculous because they're regulated by a manifestly non-Solamnic authority. Again, I'd say the solamnics would prefer their OWN magicians that answer just as faithfully to Majere or perhaps Kiri-Jonilith.
You may see the Orders as conceding to Evil, but that is only the case within the Towers. Out in the world a White Robe can blast a Black Robe to ashes without hesitation or fear of the Conclave. That's explicitly stated in the 3rd Foundation of Magic.
I know. I'm just making a point.
So going back to my earlier point, why should the Knighthood go along with this? They have access to arcane spellcasters that are willing to commit to the gods rather than asserting independence.
Some of the sorcerers would say that they are about as independent of the gods only barring some clerics. They have just devoted their lives to sorcery as a way of serving the gods because the mystics were no way to get closer to them during the Absence.
This cross-references the thread that was about the Knights of Solamnia a while back. The clandestine circle is not the exemplar of the Knighthood and there is question of how much they're really in tune with Knightly ideals and the Measure. If the Knights want to just turn into the Legion of Steel they certainly could, but with the return of the gods a lot of the compromises that they made during the desperate times earlier in the Fifth Age are no longer necessary.
In defense of the Knighthood, the Clandestine Circle is a group of traitors and scoundrels in the ranks of the Knighthood. Any Auxillary or Knight would be justified in executing them in my opinion.
The Knights can, in this new era, have godly spellcasters (being a White Robe is a prerequisite for the Solamnic Auxilliary Mage PrC) to provide magical support. So they are hedging their bets against the Knights of Neraka's arcane arm.
I find it an interesting idea really the Knighthood might choose to build a godly sorcerer arm independent of the gods of magic is all I'm saying. Especially if Solinari doesn't forbid them.
Men known to be righteous, obedient, and honorable.
However, given that the Knights of Neraka make extensive use of sorcerors, and the fact that infiltrators from the Thorn Knights were used against the Academy of Sorcery, there's not a compelling argument for why the Knights could or should accept sorcerors at their word.
The Orders of High Sorcery make extensive use of Black Robes. I cannot believe the Knights would so blatantly violate the Oath as to judge a man by his magic style rather than the content of his character.
The Legion of Steel are honorless rangers
I'm assuming this is just rhetoric for flavor, since the Legion of Steel are by no means honorless, nor are they all rangers. They're not Ansalon's Harpers, they're a military order with as many individuals working in the open in places the Solamnics don't typically reach as they have working behind the scenes in oppressive regions the Solamnics can't move in on. They learned all of this clandestine behavior from the Solamnic knights in the first place, who were masters of it in the Age of Despair and didn't really come out of hiding until after the War of the Lance.
Cheers,
Cam
In contrast, a well concealed treacherous sorceror or mystic can maintain their facade far more easily. Even the mentalists and sensitives at the Citadel of Light and the diviners at the Academy of Sorcery were deceived by infilrators early in the Fifth Age, which greatly advanced the cause of the Knights of Neraka.
The Knighthood only accepted wild magic in the first place because there was no alternative during the god's absence and necessity dictated it. That is no longer the case. And the Knights are not in the habit of being proactive for starters, much less second-guessing the gods (which would be a tremendous act of impiety in most of their minds). Why restructure their principles, and demonstrate such overt lack of faith, by making their faith optional as a precaution against possible future godly absences?
I would ask Drakerym to carry his own argument to it's logical conclusion. The Knights were never on great terms with the Wizards of High Sorcery. But that didn't lead them to recruit renegade wizards instead under the premise that they were somehow more trustworthy because they weren't allied to the Orders. So why would they accept sorcerors if they didn't accept renegade wizards?
Clearly they favor people meeting set criteria. In this latter-day case that means White Robes.
Not surprising when you think about it. Kiri-Jolith is Lawful Good, and probably considers arcane magic the lawful province of his brother Solinari. If he is going to support his Knights allowing an arcane spellcasting auxilliary, he is more likely to prefer ones that are bound to his brother, rather than ones that may claim to worship he himself but don't want the entanglements of the obligations of godly magic.
Where is the "widening rift" between the Knights of Solamnia and the Order of the White Robes? Based on published materials the "rift" is narrower than it has ever been and getting narrower still.
Elite fighter/sorcerors are not their style and probably will never be. Some groups just don't take well to that much change. Even with recent changes the White Robes of the Solamnic Auxilliary are not being integrated into the Crown, Sword or Rose Knights. They're being placed in a separate collumn.
But what about other major powers? Maybe Ergoth might opt to field such a force? Or Kalaman or some other state. The issue here is really that this model doesn't fit well specifically with the Knights. Indeed, we all agree it fits the Legion much better.
The SAGA stuff about blending sorcery and mysticism was really meant to overcome the limitations that sorcerors and mystics had in SAGA, being limited to affecting non-living and living things respectively. d20 does not impose that limitation (a BIG perk for sorcerors and mystics) that invalidates some of their role-playing feel, but also reinforces the difference between the classes and arcane versus divine magic.
I think you also mentioned how sorcerers are "artists of magic", which seems to fit them well too.
It took me a while to write that. I obviously wasn't giving Ferratus what he was looking for...so I sat down and tried to think about it...what is the fundamental difference between wizards and sorcerers. Game mechanics aside...what reall makes them different? And I came up with that (but no one said anything about it until now
) How about this:Both have received their college degrees in arcane magic, but sorcerers received a BA in Arcane Magic and wizards received a BS in Arcane Magic.
That's an analogy for ya. heh heh
Or, sorcerers are right brainers and wizards are left brainers approaching the same subject.
I believe they are fundamentally different to the core...which is why so many wizards had a hard time switching, and why I think "real" sorcerers will have a hard time going to wizardry. (it can nicely explain why no multi-classing is allowed, as well
)I want to discuss the rest of what you said in a bit (I'm outta time right now). Maybe I'll start a new thread...
It just seems to me that we hear a lot around these boards about integrating sorcerors (and mystics) into older groups like the Knights of Solamnia and Wizards of High Sorcery. We also hear a lot about how there's some kind of plot to eradicate all the Fifth Age stuff.
Yet what I'm not seeing is a huge support for playing the Legion, a purely Fifth Age organization, but rather a desire to "modernize" older institutions to make them more playable by Fifth Age character types.
Any thoughts?
Yet what I'm not seeing is a huge support for playing the Legion, a purely Fifth Age organization, but rather a desire to "modernize" older institutions to make them more playable by Fifth Age character types.
Naw...you're just a bit late on that. There's been huge debates about the Legion of Steel. I for one (and I think this may just be the concensus for most people involved) am tired of arguing my point on the subject.
The Legion of Steel is by far and away my mostest fovoritest bestest organization on Ansalon. :D
I'm just tired of fighting over them, that's all.
Going back to the sorcerer topic a bit, the Legion really is the one last major non-evil organization that has sorcerers as members. With the Academy of Sorcery destroyed, I wonder if they will land up recruiting more sorcerers or not. Hrm...
KoS-incorporates godly arcane and divine magic
KoN-incorporates ambient arcane and divine magic
LoS-incorporates arcane and divine magic, no matter the source....Id have liked to see AoM have the expanded LoS PrC's like this....Legion Scout, Legion Mage, Legion (Term that is ambiguous to ambient or godly divine magic user)