Racial Domains in DL

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

zombiegleemax

Oct 27, 2004 23:26:37
I haven't heard or seen anything about racial domains for DL on this boards so I thought I'd ask. I'm tinkering with a friends Character Sheet in Excel and I'm adding DL and other source spells (much more time consuming than I orignally thought) and I noticed that in the DLCS and AoM that there are no racial domains. I plan on adding the Dragon domain from the Draconomicon and giving it to both Takhisis and Paladine, but I was wondering if this lack of racial domains was intentional or an oversight that will be corrected in Holy Order of the Stars? I was thinking of giving Paladine the Elf domain, Takhisis the Ogre (a heavily modified FR orc domain) domain, Reorx the dwarves and maybe gnomes, Sargonnas-->minotaur, etc. I just thought I'd ask if it was an oversight and something that is going to be corrected in HOotS and I should just wait or if it was intentional.
I also noticed that each god is only given 4 domains including greater gods, is it supposed to be that way? I would have thought that minor would have 4-5, Intermediate 5-6, and greater 6-7.
#2

zombiegleemax

Oct 28, 2004 20:56:26
OK either this has be covered before and I don't know how to use the Search function properly or this is a taboo or non-relevant topic. Feedback one way or the other would be nice.
#3

wolffenjugend_dup

Oct 28, 2004 21:09:25
6-7 domains!?!? Why bother having limits if they're going to get that many?
#4

iltharanos

Oct 28, 2004 22:08:07
I also noticed that each god is only given 4 domains including greater gods, is it supposed to be that way? I would have thought that minor would have 4-5, Intermediate 5-6, and greater 6-7.

Greater number of domains != Greater deific power.

e.g. Look at some Greyhawk deities:

Garl Glittergold: Greater Deity: 3 domains
Lolth: Intermediate Deity: 4 domains
Bahamut: Lesser Deity: 4 domains
Pelor: Greater Deity: 4 domains
#5

zombiegleemax

Oct 29, 2004 8:47:33
6-7 domains!?!? Why bother having limits if they're going to get that many?

I think it shows that as a greater diety they have much more control/authority/responsibilty. It also allows players to explore different aspects other than than the trite. Look at Paladine for instance, he only has 4 domains (as per DLCS); Good, Law, Protection, and Sun. So all he really gets as an option are Protection and Sun, he automatically get Law and Good due to his alignment. That seems rather weak and inflexible as the head of the good pantheon. I personally think he should get something like this; Good, Law, Dragon, Elf, Nobility, Protection, and Sun. IMO these domains represent Paladine as he is presented in the novels. I don't think giving out racial domains is really a big issue either, as only an Elf can take the Elf domain.
#6

zombiegleemax

Oct 29, 2004 8:51:22
Greater number of domains != Greater deific power.

e.g. Look at some Greyhawk deities:

Garl Glittergold: Greater Deity: 3 domains
Lolth: Intermediate Deity: 4 domains
Bahamut: Lesser Deity: 4 domains
Pelor: Greater Deity: 4 domains

I going off a DL to FR comparison, since those are the only two settings that I play *Dreaming happily of only playing in DL*. I don't see more than 4 domains hurting anything in FR except that it affords clerics a wider variety of domains to choose from, and since when has that been a problem.
#7

cam_banks

Oct 29, 2004 10:01:40
Racial domains are a Forgotten Realms thing, not something common to all D&D settings. It wasn't an oversight that they were left out of the DLCS. There's also no specific issue with the number of domains for each god, but nothing's really stopping you from adding more to them if you feel like it.

Cheers,
Cam
#8

zombiegleemax

Oct 29, 2004 10:27:37
Also consider that FR uses the demi-human pantheons. The Elven Pantheon grants the Elf domain for example. The Faerunian and Mulhorandi pantheons do not grant racial domains, even in those instances where their worshippers are demi-humans or humanoids.

Krynn likewise does not have racial deities. Paladine is revered by elves and dragons for example, but he was never exclusively their god. Even Sargonnas, for all that he is associated with minotaurs, is not solely a minotaur god.

You might be able to make an argument for use of the racial domains by mystics however.
#9

cam_banks

Oct 29, 2004 11:05:38
You might be able to make an argument for use of the racial domains by mystics however.

I would allow that. I think almost any domain is fair game for mystics; it's one of the more appealing things about the class, which is otherwise regarded as a little weak in comparison to the cleric.

Cheers,
Cam
#10

wolffenjugend_dup

Oct 29, 2004 12:10:16
So all he really gets as an option are Protection and Sun, he automatically get Law and Good due to his alignment.

Uh, is that a house rule? AFAIK, clerics don't automatically get any domains. Clerics of Paladine can only take the Law and Good domains if their alignment matches. Clerics have an alignment restriction on domains they can take; not bonus domains.
#11

cam_banks

Oct 29, 2004 12:29:02
Uh, is that a house rule? AFAIK, clerics don't automatically get any domains. Clerics of Paladine can only take the Law and Good domains if their alignment matches. Clerics have an alignment restriction on domains they can take; not bonus domains.

You are correct. You don't automatically get your alignment domains as a cleric of a deity with alignment domains. I assumed he was talking about Paladine as a deity a la Deities and Demigods, but I could be wrong.

Cheers,
Cam
#12

darthsylver

Oct 29, 2004 15:00:34
I believe what korainth was saying was that Paladine automatically receives his alignments as domains he can grant; hence Law, and Good, therefore limiting his choices of 4 domains to 2 whether or not he wished to be able to grant Good or Law as a domain to his clerics.
#13

zombiegleemax

Oct 29, 2004 18:07:50
I believe what korainth was saying was that Paladine automatically receives his alignments as domains he can grant; hence Law, and Good, therefore limiting his choices of 4 domains to 2 whether or not he wished to be able to grant Good or Law as a domain to his clerics.

I doubt Paladine would see those domains as "limitations" as advancing Law and Good are essential to him.
#14

zombiegleemax

Oct 29, 2004 20:39:24
You are correct. You don't automatically get your alignment domains as a cleric of a deity with alignment domains. I assumed he was talking about Paladine as a deity a la Deities and Demigods, but I could be wrong.

Cheers,
Cam

No you were correct. I was refering to Paladine automatically being "granted" those domains per se due to his alignment, leaving a non lawful good cleric of his no option but the Protection and Sun domains. I was trying to show the lack of choice it leaves players. I just think that the gods should offer 4 domain choices, plus whatever automatic domains they are able to grant due to alignment

OK I can understand not wanting to emulate FR. I wholy understand and agree that DL needs to be an entirely seperate entity. I was just trying to pull some of the few items that I liked about FR, and trust me there are only a few, and integrate them into DL.
#15

zombiegleemax

Oct 29, 2004 22:19:29
Given Paladine's Lawful Good alignment, it is almost certain that any cleric of his would be of an alignment wherein either or both the Law and/or Good domains would be valid options for the cleric, in addition to his other two domains. Since clerics only get two domains (and can possibly acquire a third if certain prestige classes are used) I don't see any of Paladine's clerics as having been "boxed in" by a lack of domain choices.

Since Paladine is not the deity of any specific race, how many racial domains would he be obliged to have? Elf and Scalykind at the very least I assume. By why not also Dwarf, or other racial domains? For that matter, why should he have any upper limits on his domains? I know that the FR model is, as it has long been, to just give deities phenominally long lists of domains. But I've always felt that this simply serves to create a confusing lack of clarity surrounding the portfolios of gods, though it's admittedly better now than it was in 2E.
#16

darthsylver

Oct 30, 2004 8:43:17
As per Deities & Demigods all deities of DR (Divine Rank) 1 or greater are automatically granted 3 domains. Any more than this must taken by spent salient ability points to gain extra domain. Paladine as a greater deity has at least 21 salient ability points. 16 from his Divine rank (of at least DR 16 in order to be a greater deity) and 5 as a bonus for being a greater deity. So, Paladine could in essence have 24 domains that he could grant to his followers. He would however have no other divine abilities. So basically Paladine has had to at least made the choice to purchase one extra domain either the Sun or Protection domain.
#17

cam_banks

Oct 30, 2004 9:02:57
As per Deities & Demigods all deities of DR (Divine Rank) 1 or greater are automatically granted 3 domains. Any more than this must taken by spent salient ability points to gain extra domain. Paladine as a greater deity has at least 21 salient ability points. 16 from his Divine rank (of at least DR 16 in order to be a greater deity) and 5 as a bonus for being a greater deity. So, Paladine could in essence have 24 domains that he could grant to his followers. He would however have no other divine abilities. So basically Paladine has had to at least made the choice to purchase one extra domain either the Sun or Protection domain.

The above really wasn't considered when the deities of Dragonlance were written up for the setting, however. It's useful information for folks like Green Giant who are doing fan stat blocks for the gods, but there's otherwise no reason to think that Krynn's gods follow all of the rules Deities and Demigods introduced.

Cheers,
Cam
#18

darthsylver

Oct 30, 2004 9:23:00
Originally posted by Cam Banks.

but there's otherwise no reason to think that Krynn's gods follow all of the rules Deities and Demigods introduced.

True. In fact I would prefer to see the DL gods being created with rules that directly fly in the face of FR just to prove that they (the gods of krynn) do not conform to FR.

I would however like to see the rules used for such creation so I could use them as a DM in Krynn.
#19

zombiegleemax

Oct 30, 2004 9:46:44
I'm not complaining about the way things are, I'm just saying that they don't allow enough freedom in choice, in the way of domains, IMO. I don't want to sound like SP did it wrong, I was only trying find out if in Holy Order of the Stars if we are going to see the domains per god changed and/or beefed up perhaps. That way I would just wait in updating the spreadsheet until such a point.

Racial domains will be a house rule for now, unless of course we'll see some optional rules for them in HOotS. Paladine and Tahkisis will have Elf and Ogre (a heavily modified Orc domain from FR) respectively and both will have Dragon (from The Draconomicon). Rerox will have Dwarf, and Gnome. Sargonnas will have Minotaur (a home-brewed item). Branchala will get Kender (a variant of the Halfling domain from FR). This seems to follow patron/matron dieties per the DLCS. Where FR has racial gods I'm only trying to follow patron/matron dieites.
#20

zombiegleemax

Oct 30, 2004 9:52:34
Actually, I think that the Deities and Demigods rules were an incredible nuisance to the designers of FR. In typical FR twink fashion they had just poured any domain even remotely relevant onto the deities in the setting and then found themselves in a lurch when they had to stat out those gods and discovered that they had to spend SDA slots for all those "free" extra domains.

But I don't see why the DL deities need more domains. They already have a pretty decent spread. Also, the pantheon is so small that too many domains would start to create messy overlap.
#21

darthsylver

Oct 30, 2004 18:54:28
Originally posted by Psionycx
But I don't see why the DL deities need more domains. They already have a pretty decent spread. Also, the pantheon is so small that too many domains would start to create messy overlap.

Here, here.
#22

ferratus

Oct 31, 2004 14:14:13
I'm not so worried about somebody who is playing a particular diety having all the options he wants. I am worried about the gods being clearly defined. In the DLCS I felt there was far too much overlap in terms of domain selection. So here is my revised list of Domains. It is as of yet unfinished, because I have not yet created all the domains. Suggestions of spells and spell lists that would fit into those domains would really speed up the process. Ideas for replacing certain domains (such as Hatred for Zeboim, and Charm for Shinare) would also be appreciated.

Domains of Evil

Takhisis: Lust, Tyranny!, Darkness*

Sargonnas: Strength, Wrath, War

Hiddukel: Greed$, Trickery, Treachery@

Chemosh: Death, Murder, Necromancy@

Morgion: Pestilence@, Madness*, Destruction

Zeboim: Hatred!, Storm@, Water,

Domains of Neutrality

Gilean: Knowledge, Truth, Liberation*@

Shinare: Charm*, Commerce%, Wealth$,

Reorx: Forge, Creation*, Luck

Zivilyn: Fate!, Prophecy, Insight@

Chislev: Plant, Earth, Fertility

Sirrion: Fire, Passion@, Rebirth

Domains of Good

Paladine: Protection, Light, Justice

Mishakal: Healing, Community*, Love

Majere: Meditation@, Discipline, Thought

Kiri-Jolith: Nobility*, Courage, Glory*.

Habbakuk: Air, Animal, Loyalty

Branchala: Dreams, Song, Travel.

In addition, all gods can grant to their followers Good, Evil or Balance! domains. This was to tie all the gods together. As well, I was considering giving the Dragon$ domains to Paladine and Takhisis and the Rune Domain to Gilean, to show their preeminence among the gods.

I would have to create the Lust, Wrath, Murder, Truth, Rebirth, Fertility, Light, Justice, Love, Thought, Courage, Loyalty domains. I’m pretty sure I’ve read about the Dreams Domain and the Song Domain, but they aren’t in any of WotC’s publications so I’m not worried about reengineering them.

* From the SRD
! From the Forgotten Realms
$ From the Draconomicon
@ From the Dragonlance Campaign Setting
% From the Eberron Campaign Setting
#23

zombiegleemax

Oct 31, 2004 23:54:40
That's not hald bad. It gives any alignment player a choice of at least 3 domains they can choose from. That's what I was looking to see. Throw in your alignment domains and most deities will have 4-5 domains to choose from and then your heads of the pantheons will have 1 addilitonal on top of that. Still I personally would give out racial domains to those gods that have taken a certain race under their wing, protected them, and granted them special favor, but hey that's just me.

Hopefully we'll see some alternative domain setup for the gods in HOotS.
#24

darthsylver

Nov 01, 2004 10:22:20
Actually the Lust, Wrath domains are in Dragon 323. Dream domain in Complete Divine (CD). Courage is in Complete Warrior (CW). You could probably sub the Inquisition Domain (CD) for Truth. Mind (CD) for Thought. Sun (PHB) for Light.

Just my two cents.