Or does he now have levels of each class?
Either way, just curious about the reasoning behind this.
I don't think you can use the argument that he goes crazy when Goldmoon is in trouble. Then you could argue Caramon should have levels in barbarian because of when Raisltin was in trouble. Or any other person when a loved one is in trouble.
I see Riverwind pretty much similar to as I see Tanis, only flipped. I think Riverwind should be a Ranger/Fighter, but with more levels in ranger. Tanis I also see as a Ranger/Fighter, but with more levels in fighter. But then again.. everyone has an opinion on what certain heroes should be.
I hate the name "barbarian" a lot when used to describe the different tribes. I think it actually confuzes a lot of people. I had to explain to my girlfriend that in the Chronicles when they said barbarian.. it didnt necessarily mean Barbarian from D&D. I just wonder if some people automatically assume those people will have levels in Barbarian. I hope not.
Unfortunately I'm starting to see the same thing when it comes to statting out heroes, especially the Heroes of the Lance. Too many of the classes have some special abilities that the Heroes never exhibit, so they are expected to not be that class. As in no one would want Riverwind, Tanis, etc to be high in Ranger levels because they never have an animal companian. Stuff like that. I find it a shame. I know I found it weird in FR when I saw Drizzt as a Ranger and having a spell, which I never saw him cast in the novels.
If Margaret Weis, one of two writers of Riverwind and Tanis, tells her company, Sovereign Press, Riverwind is this, and Tanis is that, Wouldnt she know? Especially after asking Tracy & Laura Hickman, the two people who designed Dragonlance? ;)
Riverwind on the other I have always felt that he was a ranger. He does have some strength but I never really felt that he was a fighter. I have never heard of him having any formal training such as that Caramon had, and he used the bow more often than the sword. Granted it is possible to be bow-wielding fighter but I just don't see Riverwind with fighter levels.
Cheers,
Cam
Correct me if I'm wrong but Barbarian wasn't a choice for a class when his original stats were written up back in the day.
not until the Unearthed Arcana came out and had some more classes (like the Barbarian) ... That version wasn't quite Riverwind (or else there'd some fighting between him and Caramon over Raist)
I just hope that you don't believe that every single thing you see in print from SP is straight from the mouth of Margeret Weis. I'm pretty sure that Cam is given authority on most things to do what he sees fit and then it goes through the approval and editing maybe through Weis.
Maybe Cam can shed some more light on the exact process, but thats what I've always believed. I doubt that Weis was the one who came up with the idea first and foremost for Arakias to be the prototype for Kight of the Lily levels... but who knows I may be wrong.
As I said before, when you see something in print you shouldnt just automatically assume it comes straight from Weis. :D
As I said before, when you see something in print you shouldnt just automatically assume it comes straight from Weis. :D
Sovereign Press approves (and pre-approves, much of the time) everything we do as freelancers. We're tasked with exercising our best judgment and use of rules to meet the goals that are set out for us and nothing goes to print without passing under their watchful eye and that of editors and WOTC. Margaret's a very hands-on person and great to work for, as is Jamie. I'm continually inspired to hold myself to a higher standard because of their support and encouragement of the people they contract to work for them.
Can't really summarize it any better than that!
Cheers,
Cam
As for the Riverwind barbarian argument, I'm pretty much in the camp of people believing Riverwind doesn't really make sense as a barbarian. IMHO, just because he is from a tribe, doesn't automagically make him a barbarian. If you had an NPC farmer or goat herder from a tribe, would they automatically take barbarian levels as well? Personally, I don't think so. Riverwind was never portrayed AFAIK as a raging barbarian. Ever. Sure, he was protective of Goldmoon, but I don't ever recall his going into a berserker fury over her. If you want to base the berserker nature of character as a qualifier for a class, then I guess Tanis could qualify as a barbarian as well, when he believed Berem had something to do with Flint's dying, since he totally flipped out. Tika should be a barbarian too, since she was never formally trained as a fighter, and her rage when swinging a frying pan is legendary. The examples like this could play out forever. Back to the point though, I still don't think Riverwind should be a barbarian. A ranger lives in the wilderness, and as such, is understood to be an outdoorsy, hardy, rugged, live off the land type of character. That having been said, a true 100% ranger makes more sense for Riverwind IMO.
I just hope that you don't believe that every single thing you see in print from SP is straight from the mouth of Margeret Weis. I'm pretty sure that Cam is given authority on most things to do what he sees fit and then it goes through the approval and editing maybe through Weis.
Cam summarized this quite well. All of us who work as freelancers for Sovereign Press try very hard to follow their vision for Dragonlance. If we are ever in doubt, or if there are contradictions, we go to the guys at SP and ask how they want to approach things.
The companions are a touchy subject where classes and levels are concerned, especially Raistlin. Because we love these characters so much, we have in our mind's eye a picture of how they should be represented. This has sparked much debate in Dragonlance fans since day one.
I think Riverwind was done quite well. That's not to say it's the only way of doing Riverwind, but it was the way that Sovereign Press felt best portrayed him.
Same with Tanis. We've heard arguments over the years on whether he was a fighter or ranger. I once thought that 3rd edition offered the best solution, as he could be both. Yet with age and wisdom, I see that is probably not the case. Perhaps a variant wilderness fighter would be more fitting. *shrugs*
riverwind is a barbarian(tribesmen) of the plains of dust according to the books
I hate the name "barbarian" a lot when used to describe the different tribes. I think it actually confuzes a lot of people. I had to explain to my girlfriend that in the Chronicles when they said barbarian.. it didnt necessarily mean Barbarian from D&D. I just wonder if some people automatically assume those people will have levels in Barbarian. I hope not.
As for the Riverwind barbarian argument, I'm pretty much in the camp of people believing Riverwind doesn't really make sense as a barbarian. IMHO, just because he is from a tribe, doesn't automagically make him a barbarian. If you had an NPC farmer or goat herder from a tribe, would they automatically take barbarian levels as well? Personally, I don't think so. Riverwind was never portrayed AFAIK as a raging barbarian. Ever. Sure, he was protective of Goldmoon, but I don't ever recall his going into a berserker fury over her. If you want to base the berserker nature of character as a qualifier for a class, then I guess Tanis could qualify as a barbarian as well, when he believed Berem had something to do with Flint's dying, since he totally flipped out. Tika should be a barbarian too, since she was never formally trained as a fighter, and her rage when swinging a frying pan is legendary. The examples like this could play out forever. Back to the point though, I still don't think Riverwind should be a barbarian. A ranger lives in the wilderness, and as such, is understood to be an outdoorsy, hardy, rugged, live off the land type of character. That having been said, a true 100% ranger makes more sense for Riverwind IMO.
Laz, have you even been reading this thread? Listen to the 2 people i quote.
Cheers,
Cam
A grief I have is the assumption that if a character has a particular class, that they MUST have such and such a benefit or ability which may or may not fit the character as portrayed in the novels.
The character may simply find it not useful or not oppurtune.
As for the Riverwind barbarian argument, I'm pretty much in the camp of people believing Riverwind doesn't really make sense as a barbarian. IMHO, just because he is from a tribe, doesn't automagically make him a barbarian. If you had an NPC farmer or goat herder from a tribe, would they automatically take barbarian levels as well? Personally, I don't think so. Riverwind was never portrayed AFAIK as a raging barbarian.
You're acting under the assumption that if a character has a particular class, they must have such and such a benefit.
There are plenty of times the characters were mad, certainly, but Rage is simply neglecting defense for offense in some ways. As well there are other abilities that the Barbarian class possesses. The speed bonus is fine for Riverwind, and I do think the d12 HD are good too.
Just as not all folks from a "barbarian" tribe are the barbarian class, not all barbarian's are norse berserkers that foam at the mouth.
Riverwind has gone into a beserker rage. If you remember right after Goldmoon striked down the black dragon with the blue crystal staff, and Disspeared. Riverwind thought she died, and ran thru the ruined city of Xak Tsaroth killing Draconians "sometimes" with his bare hands. Hince the Barbarian levels.
Then I guess Tanis and Tika are barbarians as well, since they've both 'flown off the handle'.
You might be right about Riverwind freaking out about Goldmoon, I just don't seem to recall it, as I remember Khisanth reducing him to a bubbling puddle of acid soaked goo (albeit he was still barely alive though, so not a case of resurrection). IIRC, Goldmoon destroyed Khisanth, then healed Riverwind from the verge of death, much to the surprise of the heroes of the lance. Then again, I will make the caveat that it's been more than a few years since I've read the original series. :P
You're acting under the assumption that if a character has a particular class, they must have such and such a benefit.
There are plenty of times the characters were mad, certainly, but Rage is simply neglecting defense for offense in some ways.
And going with that, then Caramon would qualify as a barbarian moreso than Riverwind would since he threw himself bodily at people in the defense of Raistlin with no regards to his own safety whatsoever, but I digress. My point is, one of the cornerstones of the barbarian class is the rage ability. If Riverwind doesn't use it, because it's 'not convenient' or he 'doesn't want to' than what criteria is there left to classify him as a barbarian? It seems more like his description as a "barbarian tribesman" is the basis for classing him as a barbarian, which is a silly and erroneous decision IMHO.
As well there are other abilities that the Barbarian class possesses. The speed bonus is fine for Riverwind, and I do think the d12 HD are good too.
Which are very generic. The speed bonus is irrelevant, as is the d12. He could still be lumped into the ranger class at this point. Albeit, he'll get a d8 instead of a d12 in HP, but big deal. He'll get tracking (an outdoorsy ability one would expect from a hunter/nomad, favored enemy (draconian anyone?), etc etc) I still contend that given the portrayal of his character, the ranger class just makes more sense for him IMO.
Just as not all folks from a "barbarian" tribe are the barbarian class, not all barbarian's are norse berserkers that foam at the mouth.
If he doesn't have the traits of a barbarian, then why make him one? Because he's a "barbarian tribesman"? What criteria is the decision to make Riverwind a barbarian based on if he doesn't use the core ability of the class? A ranger without an animal companion? I can see that. A monk that doesn't use dimension door? I can see that too. A barbarian that doesn't rage is sorta like a wizard or sorcerer that never casts spells. If they don't use their primary ability, what's the point of their classification?
Cheers,
Cam
As far as to the statement that sometimes a character does not necesarily use a class feature because it is not useful, I agree with this. If draconians are Riverwind's favored enemy (which they are not, creatures of the animal type are. WoTL sourcebook), then he gets a +2 bonus to bluff checks vs. them, just how often are you really going to use this.
He could get away with Barbarian levels if his Strength had been dropped 2-3 points, but since the goal was to port the base stats directly from 1E AD&D I think Fighter (or straight Ranger) would have definitely been the better way to go.
As I said in the other Riverwind thread however, his character did pose a bit of an awkward dilemma in being converted.
I think Nomad human Ranger/Fighter would have been the way to go for Riverwind. I could see how parts of the Barbarian concept sound compatible, but given Riverwind's Strength score (18), the Rage ability really disqualifies the class when you think about what that would mean he could do in a fight compared to, say, Caramon.
His increased strength from raging only comes into effect for a few rounds out of every day, and carries with it its own penalties and consequences. It's not supposed to represent his "true" strength, which is on a par with Caramon's own. Caramon benefits from bonus feats and a focus on weapons and weapon specialization, which Riverwind does not - ultimately, he uses his strength in a different manner from Riverwind.
Cheers,
Cam
His increased strength from raging only comes into effect for a few rounds out of every day, and carries with it its own penalties and consequences. It's not supposed to represent his "true" strength, which is on a par with Caramon's own.
I'm just thinking about how they were portrayed in the novels. Those "few rounds out of every day" would comprise of battle highlights, which are the kinds of cinematic scenarios the novels would focus on as the companions lives were chronicled from battle to battle.
The Strength boost provided by Rage is massive, and it just never manifested in the books. That's the only reason why it seems a bit off. From your point of view I do see why the published version makes sense, it just comes down to deciding where the "spirit" ;) of a character is most embodied.
On that we differ, but only slightly. I very much like what was done with updating the companions as a whole.
The Strength boost provided by Rage is massive, and it just never manifested in the books.
Well, it's a +2 to attack and damage. I wouldn't call it massive. Caramon has close to that benefit with his Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization feats, as well as enjoying Power Attack and its successive feats. It's not likely to get any better, either - Riverwind probably continues to advance as a ranger in later levels, never gaining the Greater Rage ability. Caramon likely puts his ability score advancement into Strength, giving him 20 Str at 8th level; Riverwind on the other hand focuses more on his agility and endurance.
Glad to hear that folks generally like the official versions, though. There really are a hundred and one ways to look at defining characters from books, although the job was a little easier given their existence as game characters to begin with.
Cheers,
Cam
There really are a hundred and one ways to look at defining characters from books, although the job was a little easier given their existence as game characters to begin with.
Oh man I hear ya. I advanced Elijayess up to about 9th level as a 1st Edition AD&D Unearthed Arcana barbarian but with a couple of the magic related abilities houseruled away in favor of Weapon Specialization - Longbow.
Yeah, trying converting *that* character into 3.5E and maintain the original spirit of the character. I've probably second guessed myself and reconverted him half a dozen times over, and its my own guy, not a famous character from a novel with thousands of fans who all have their specific vision of how he should be represented.
Riverwind never was a berserker. Anger, fury, etc. is normal if you're friends and you're beloved are threatend. Any normal human (and dwarf, elf, ...) is able to such emotions ... without being a berserker ... in a 3E barbarian.
So, at least the rage ability of the barbarian class shouldn't be applied when giving Riverwind gaming stats.
In AD&D he used to be a fighter and later in 2E a ranger, if I remember correctly.
Whatever class you use, fighter, ranger or barbarian, he shouldn't get abilities he hadn't in the books. No rage. No magic. etc.
In AD&D he used to be a fighter and later in 2E a ranger, if I remember correctly.
In AD&D he was always a ranger, from the very beginning in fact.
We gave him both ranger levels and barbarian levels. We think it works for a role-playing game version of Riverwind. If you don't think it works, replace whatever class levels you don't like with levels in another class, and you're set.
Cheers,
Cam