Original Champions criteria thoughts - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Original Champions criteria thoughts

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Dec 10, 2004 1:28:39 Ok, I was thinking (oh no!). So about the initial creation of the champions . . . I know the current trend is towards dragons needing to cast 9th level arcane and manifest 6th level psionics. This allows for Hamanu and Borys to be psychic warriors and stuff.

Now I admit right now that I don't agree with that, so remember that's influencing my thoughts.

One of the 2e sources (can't remember which one, to be honest) says that when Rajaat was teaching magic, those he chose to become his champions were all the strongest masters of the way. Which to me says psion and/or erudite, not psychic warrior.

Explain Borys, Hamanu, Irikos, Myron or any other militant fellow?

Well Hamanu, more than any others, was created. He was originally just some schmuck, until Rajaat re-made him, essentially handing him enough manifesting and defiling levels to be a champion. Irikos and Myron? Well they were kinda different to begin with, being chosen before all the other champions to serve as anti-preserver warlords in the jihad. Before the CW started I can buy them as having mostly just defiling levels and either psychic warrior or straight up warrior, and then when they became champions they were given/had developed enough manifesting levels. Borys? Treat him exactly the same as Hamanu: he was a replacement.

During the Jihad, Rajaat makes the silencer and scorcher, giving each to his lieutenents: Irikos and Myron, respectively. Later, the CW start and Rajaat makes his champions. One of them, Neksos (or, The Neksos, depending) is trying to off the dwarves, but is having a rough time. Eventually, they succeed in killing him. So Rajaat takes someone else (likely a warrior in Neksos' army) and makes them a champion: Borys. In addition, to avoid a repeat of Neksos' death at dwarfy hands, Rajaat creates a third sword, improving on the design of his first two swords: the Scourge. Later, Myron betrays Rajaat (perhaps knowing of Rajaat's final plan for humanity, or maybe his conscience got to him or something), running his troll-killing army in circles to delay the inevitable and give him time to plan and hopefully stop Rajaat. Obviously he fails and Rajaat elevates a rebellious peon in Myron's army to replace him: Manu of Deche, to whom he grants the Scorcher. Hamanu then makes short work of the trolls.

Anyone that has warrior-like tendencies? Just give em some levels of psychic warrior or fighter ON TOP OF everything else. Explain it that they were something else before becoming champions. Or that they just use combat-enhancing psionics and/or magic to play out their "I'm a big bad warrior!" fantasies (like tectuktitlay!).

Anyway, that's my spiel. Take it as you want.

nic
#2
jaanos
Dec 10, 2004 20:24:51 Aye Aye cap'n i'm with you on this one - they are supposed to be the pinicle of psionic and magical power, they should be able to manifest 9th level powers.
#3
zombiegleemax
Dec 10, 2004 20:53:29 I don't know. Psychic warriors were unavailable in 2E, and they fit the bill so well. In my opinion, if I understand the rules right, a psychic warrior could take 3 epic feats to become cabable of manifesting 9th level powers, at that point, the only difference between him and a psion is PP reserve.
:fight!: :fight!:
#4
zombiegleemax
Dec 10, 2004 21:25:45 Yeah, but from the flavor text it seems that all the first crop of chosen champions were touted as masters of the way. that doesn't seem quite the description for a psychic warrior. I think my outlined argument and line of thinking is pretty dead-on and more than acceptible.

As for newcomers becoming advanced beings, I see no problem with a psychic warrior taking those epic feats to qualify without levels of psion, wilder or erudite. I'm just saying this all in regards to the original champions. Borys and Hamanu, or any other, I see no problem with them having levels of psychic warrior, but they should be on top of the required levels of psion, wilder or erudite. Hamanu as a strict psychic warrior is hardly a master of the way when coompared to a psion. I'm just arguing that, if he or Borys had psychic warrior levels at all, that they were beforehand, or after the fact, and the champion-making process was one of getting levels of straight-up psion.
#5
zombiegleemax
Dec 10, 2004 21:47:02 Considering the matter further, if I remember right , a 2E psionicist's attack bonuses were middle-strength, about halfway between a Mage and a Fighter. That, and a lot of Psionic powers in 2E were rather weak. Looking at the whole picture the old Psion is actually closer to the new Psychic Warrior. And, again, Psychic Warrior + Improved spell (substite power for spell as per Epic Handbook rules) =the ability to manifest 9th level powers, and thus EQUALITY TO A PSION IN ALMOST EVERY WAY EXCEPT POWER POINT RESERVE, and A TON MORE FEATS AS WELL! Thus, a much more formidable character in almost every way. Just the type of thing Rajaat would have had a use for. SO, on this line of thinking, it makes perfect sense that the ability to manifest sixth level powers is acceptable, because it indicates 20 manifester levels if the character is PsyWar, and if they're a psion, the levels of Dragon will soon bring them up to 9th level manifesting, anyway. Besides that, a dragon with access to the 3 extra psychic warrior feats would be a far more formidable oponnent.
:fight!: :fight!:
#6
zombiegleemax
Dec 11, 2004 0:14:48 I think the power Rajaat gave the Champions is a Primal Elemental energy. This large chunk of fundemental power generates a flux energy that can be used to cast spells. Now if the user is a magic user before getting the primal energy, he can use the primal energy to make his spells more powerful, but, like in the case of Hammanu who was not a magic-user, the Champion can still use the flux of the power Rajaat gave them to formulate spells.

I really like the idea of the Champions being equivalent of Gods in power. Almost like filling a power vacuum. Athas has no Gods, so Athas has beings walking on it as powerful as Gods. I try to play my Champions like Sauron from the LotR movies. (not the books) where the evil presence is felt and all penetrating but the individual is not directly seen... except for maybe Hammanu. :P
#7
zombiegleemax
Dec 11, 2004 1:16:18 The powers within the Will and the Way are hardly weak. In 2E, psionicists were actually kinda unbalanced and overwhelming. Besides, we should be working to capture the essence, not the letter, of the old material. Regardles of how you interpret the power level of psionicists (and I wonder how you came to that conclusion, if you have access to the will and the way . . . i admit the initial powers in the psionics handbook are kinda weak, but that's not the be-all end-all of 2e psionic power, nor with the player's options system). The champions were said to be chosen to become champions partially because they were all masters of the way. Not masters of the way to use the way to help them swing a sword. "Master of the way" in dark sun more often than not translates into "powerful mindbender."

Seriously, consider that the champions are generally accepted among the gaming community to have from 50-80 class levels. Requiring that they have a sizeable amount of those levels be a straight-up psion class doesn't mean that they can't have levels in psychic warrior. i dunno, it's probably just going to come down to a matter of opinion on all sides, and the opinion that'll matter the most will be the folks who make the final decision. But it's really all speculation until we get some epic rules for advanced beings.
#8
jaanos
Dec 13, 2004 16:25:39 See that is not only good as it sticks with the original 2e flavour - being masters of both the way and magic - 9th level powers (you seriously can't call yourself a master if you can only manifest 6th level powers) and makes the few psychic warriors that do make it... even more scary... i REALLY like that idea... any psy class can do it... if they can manifest 9th level powers....

:D :D :D

I don't know. Psychic warriors were unavailable in 2E, and they fit the bill so well. In my opinion, if I understand the rules right, a psychic warrior could take 3 epic feats to become cabable of manifesting 9th level powers, at that point, the only difference between him and a psion is PP reserve.
:fight!: :fight!:

#9
jaanos
Dec 13, 2004 16:30:39 True. But the point about this speculation is raise these idea's in the community as part of the process of fleshing out those rules.

But it's really all speculation until we get some epic rules for advanced beings.

#10
bengeldorn
Dec 13, 2004 20:39:28 I like this discussion, and I just want to throw something in.
A Wilder has the same Base Attack progression as a Psychic Warrior has.
A Wilder can manifest 9th level powers (without feats), too.
#11
nytcrawlr
Dec 13, 2004 21:35:52 All your mothers are hamsters and your fathers smell of elderberries!

Just kidding, trying to pick a fight because I'm bored.

:fight!:

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Dec 10, 2004 1:28:39	Ok, I was thinking (oh no!). So about the initial creation of the champions . . . I know the current trend is towards dragons needing to cast 9th level arcane and manifest 6th level psionics. This allows for Hamanu and Borys to be psychic warriors and stuff. Now I admit right now that I don't agree with that, so remember that's influencing my thoughts. One of the 2e sources (can't remember which one, to be honest) says that when Rajaat was teaching magic, those he chose to become his champions were all the strongest masters of the way. Which to me says psion and/or erudite, not psychic warrior. Explain Borys, Hamanu, Irikos, Myron or any other militant fellow? Well Hamanu, more than any others, was created. He was originally just some schmuck, until Rajaat re-made him, essentially handing him enough manifesting and defiling levels to be a champion. Irikos and Myron? Well they were kinda different to begin with, being chosen before all the other champions to serve as anti-preserver warlords in the jihad. Before the CW started I can buy them as having mostly just defiling levels and either psychic warrior or straight up warrior, and then when they became champions they were given/had developed enough manifesting levels. Borys? Treat him exactly the same as Hamanu: he was a replacement. During the Jihad, Rajaat makes the silencer and scorcher, giving each to his lieutenents: Irikos and Myron, respectively. Later, the CW start and Rajaat makes his champions. One of them, Neksos (or, The Neksos, depending) is trying to off the dwarves, but is having a rough time. Eventually, they succeed in killing him. So Rajaat takes someone else (likely a warrior in Neksos' army) and makes them a champion: Borys. In addition, to avoid a repeat of Neksos' death at dwarfy hands, Rajaat creates a third sword, improving on the design of his first two swords: the Scourge. Later, Myron betrays Rajaat (perhaps knowing of Rajaat's final plan for humanity, or maybe his conscience got to him or something), running his troll-killing army in circles to delay the inevitable and give him time to plan and hopefully stop Rajaat. Obviously he fails and Rajaat elevates a rebellious peon in Myron's army to replace him: Manu of Deche, to whom he grants the Scorcher. Hamanu then makes short work of the trolls. Anyone that has warrior-like tendencies? Just give em some levels of psychic warrior or fighter ON TOP OF everything else. Explain it that they were something else before becoming champions. Or that they just use combat-enhancing psionics and/or magic to play out their "I'm a big bad warrior!" fantasies (like tectuktitlay!). Anyway, that's my spiel. Take it as you want. nic
#2 jaanos Dec 10, 2004 20:24:51	Aye Aye cap'n i'm with you on this one - they are supposed to be the pinicle of psionic and magical power, they should be able to manifest 9th level powers.
#3 zombiegleemax Dec 10, 2004 20:53:29	I don't know. Psychic warriors were unavailable in 2E, and they fit the bill so well. In my opinion, if I understand the rules right, a psychic warrior could take 3 epic feats to become cabable of manifesting 9th level powers, at that point, the only difference between him and a psion is PP reserve. :fight!: :fight!:
#4 zombiegleemax Dec 10, 2004 21:25:45	Yeah, but from the flavor text it seems that all the first crop of chosen champions were touted as masters of the way. that doesn't seem quite the description for a psychic warrior. I think my outlined argument and line of thinking is pretty dead-on and more than acceptible. As for newcomers becoming advanced beings, I see no problem with a psychic warrior taking those epic feats to qualify without levels of psion, wilder or erudite. I'm just saying this all in regards to the original champions. Borys and Hamanu, or any other, I see no problem with them having levels of psychic warrior, but they should be on top of the required levels of psion, wilder or erudite. Hamanu as a strict psychic warrior is hardly a master of the way when coompared to a psion. I'm just arguing that, if he or Borys had psychic warrior levels at all, that they were beforehand, or after the fact, and the champion-making process was one of getting levels of straight-up psion.
#5 zombiegleemax Dec 10, 2004 21:47:02	Considering the matter further, if I remember right , a 2E psionicist's attack bonuses were middle-strength, about halfway between a Mage and a Fighter. That, and a lot of Psionic powers in 2E were rather weak. Looking at the whole picture the old Psion is actually closer to the new Psychic Warrior. And, again, Psychic Warrior + Improved spell (substite power for spell as per Epic Handbook rules) =the ability to manifest 9th level powers, and thus EQUALITY TO A PSION IN ALMOST EVERY WAY EXCEPT POWER POINT RESERVE, and A TON MORE FEATS AS WELL! Thus, a much more formidable character in almost every way. Just the type of thing Rajaat would have had a use for. SO, on this line of thinking, it makes perfect sense that the ability to manifest sixth level powers is acceptable, because it indicates 20 manifester levels if the character is PsyWar, and if they're a psion, the levels of Dragon will soon bring them up to 9th level manifesting, anyway. Besides that, a dragon with access to the 3 extra psychic warrior feats would be a far more formidable oponnent. :fight!: :fight!:
#6 zombiegleemax Dec 11, 2004 0:14:48	I think the power Rajaat gave the Champions is a Primal Elemental energy. This large chunk of fundemental power generates a flux energy that can be used to cast spells. Now if the user is a magic user before getting the primal energy, he can use the primal energy to make his spells more powerful, but, like in the case of Hammanu who was not a magic-user, the Champion can still use the flux of the power Rajaat gave them to formulate spells. I really like the idea of the Champions being equivalent of Gods in power. Almost like filling a power vacuum. Athas has no Gods, so Athas has beings walking on it as powerful as Gods. I try to play my Champions like Sauron from the LotR movies. (not the books) where the evil presence is felt and all penetrating but the individual is not directly seen... except for maybe Hammanu. :P
#7 zombiegleemax Dec 11, 2004 1:16:18	The powers within the Will and the Way are hardly weak. In 2E, psionicists were actually kinda unbalanced and overwhelming. Besides, we should be working to capture the essence, not the letter, of the old material. Regardles of how you interpret the power level of psionicists (and I wonder how you came to that conclusion, if you have access to the will and the way . . . i admit the initial powers in the psionics handbook are kinda weak, but that's not the be-all end-all of 2e psionic power, nor with the player's options system). The champions were said to be chosen to become champions partially because they were all masters of the way. Not masters of the way to use the way to help them swing a sword. "Master of the way" in dark sun more often than not translates into "powerful mindbender." Seriously, consider that the champions are generally accepted among the gaming community to have from 50-80 class levels. Requiring that they have a sizeable amount of those levels be a straight-up psion class doesn't mean that they can't have levels in psychic warrior. i dunno, it's probably just going to come down to a matter of opinion on all sides, and the opinion that'll matter the most will be the folks who make the final decision. But it's really all speculation until we get some epic rules for advanced beings.
#8 jaanos Dec 13, 2004 16:25:39	See that is not only good as it sticks with the original 2e flavour - being masters of both the way and magic - 9th level powers (you seriously can't call yourself a master if you can only manifest 6th level powers) and makes the few psychic warriors that do make it... even more scary... i REALLY like that idea... any psy class can do it... if they can manifest 9th level powers.... :D :D :D I don't know. Psychic warriors were unavailable in 2E, and they fit the bill so well. In my opinion, if I understand the rules right, a psychic warrior could take 3 epic feats to become cabable of manifesting 9th level powers, at that point, the only difference between him and a psion is PP reserve. :fight!: :fight!:
#9 jaanos Dec 13, 2004 16:30:39	True. But the point about this speculation is raise these idea's in the community as part of the process of fleshing out those rules. But it's really all speculation until we get some epic rules for advanced beings.
#10 bengeldorn Dec 13, 2004 20:39:28	I like this discussion, and I just want to throw something in. A Wilder has the same Base Attack progression as a Psychic Warrior has. A Wilder can manifest 9th level powers (without feats), too.
#11 nytcrawlr Dec 13, 2004 21:35:52	All your mothers are hamsters and your fathers smell of elderberries! Just kidding, trying to pick a fight because I'm bored. :fight!: