OK, stupid question. Why does the Lady do anything? Because she's a lawful neutral god-killing Abyssal overgod squirrel-stack that is a manifestation of Sigil, one of the creators of the multiverse, and the tool of the Slaad.
Better question: do you have any guesses why the Lady will maze rather then flay, or why have you chosen to maze or flay someone, et cetera.
The only thought I have is in Torment MINOR SPOILERS AHOY, you got mazed if you worshiped Aoskar, but you'd have to be able to get out because if a god can be killed, surely a mere immortal wouldn't survive a flaying.
Any other thoughts? And who'se been flayed anyway, canon wise? I know all manner of factoneere has been mazed, but the only one I can remember being flayed was the Harbinger House succubus (Is that right? some kind of Tanarii). And Aoskar, probably.
Mazed: the entire Communalist ruling council, the entire Incanterium faction, Vartus Timlin the factor of the Expansionists. All of them posed either an eventual threat, or their absence was needed to essentially prove a point. Rowan Darkwood (this was only in order to shunt him backwards in time the first time, the subsequent actions by The Lady shunted him back in time again and then imprisoned him in order that he would kill himself in the future. More or less a round'a'bout flaying)
Flayed: Several blocks surrounding the Shattered Temple, presumably the clergy and worshippers of Aoskar within that area. Aoskar himself was killed during the event it seems. The Succubi in Harbinger House. The mad worshippers of The Lady in Harbinger House.
The fate of Shekelor is debatable since he did challange The Lady and was incinerated within Sigil, though his death would seem to have been caused by something he encountered in Pandemonium rather than anything Her Serenity did to him. Given her knowledge of time within Sigil it may simply be that She allowed events to play out as they did.
It's interesting that the Nameless One is consigned to the same maze he was sent to before, long ago, and another time long before that. Apparently it's been in the Ethereal waiting for him for all that time, although it's possible that within the mazes time has no real meaning.
He was probably the one who used the Shadow-Sorcelled Key to open all the portals to the lower planes in the Lower Ward, cursing that part of the city with noxious infernal fumes ever since. He got mazed for that, too.
It's interesting that the Nameless One is consigned to the same maze he was sent to before, long ago, and another time long before that. Apparently it's been in the Ethereal waiting for him for all that time, although it's possible that within the mazes time has no real meaning.
He was probably the one who used the Shadow-Sorcelled Key to open all the portals to the lower planes in the Lower Ward, cursing that part of the city with noxious infernal fumes ever since. He got mazed for that, too.
Interesting ideas, and I share the opinion on the mazes there.
As for the Shadow Sorcelled Key, it's a fun myth to play around with. I had a one-shot game for an Enworld gameday here in NC based around hunting for the artifact (under rather... forced... circumstances) within a portion of UnderSigil that was effectively submerged/collapsed during the Clueless Rebellion and subsequently built over in the centuries since.
If Sigil was a forum the Lady would be its moderator/administrator; when you do something against the rules, first she kicks you (mazing) and if you are recidive she bans you (flaying).
Hmmm...maybe it's better if I...
*quits reading forums too many hours a day and goes girl chasing*
In Planescape: Torment, worshipping the Lady of Pain gets the Nameless One mazed rather than flayed. I wonder if this is because his "devotion" to her worship was too minor to merit death, or because the Lady of Pain knew that flaying, even with all her undefined powers, could not kill him?
It's interesting that the Nameless One is consigned to the same maze he was sent to before, long ago, and another time long before that. Apparently it's been in the Ethereal waiting for him for all that time, although it's possible that within the mazes time has no real meaning.
He was probably the one who used the Shadow-Sorcelled Key to open all the portals to the lower planes in the Lower Ward, cursing that part of the city with noxious infernal fumes ever since. He got mazed for that, too.
My memory of the game is a bit fuzzy now, but I recall that a repeat offense of worship got TNO flayed the second time. And it was Game Over. Presumably even his soul was destroyed, because we didn't see his soul shell getting dumped in the Hells.
Secondly: in Torment, mazing occurs for your first offence, whatever that offence may be (worshipping Aoskar, worshipping the Lady, killing a Dabus, etc.), and flaying occurs for any second offence.
Personally I see mazing as the Lady's way of dealing with real, powerful threats to Sigil, storing them in a little box in the Ethereal so that if she ever needs them she can bring them back (perhaps to pit against a new threat she can't deal with). Flaying is reserved for people she just doesn't like, or regards as hardly worth her attention (a barmy picking fights with Dabus, for example). Of course, this is just my version of events.
I thought Ravel was supposed to have tried to unlock the cage? Doesn't that suggest her use of the Shadow Sorcelled key?
If Sigil was a forum the Lady would be its moderator/administrator; when you do something against the rules, first she kicks you (mazing) and if you are recidive she bans you (flaying).
Well, there was this one peculiar thread ... :D
As for why you go to the same maze, it's stated in one of the books, I believe, that everyone has their own personal maze (in the ethereal plane? I don't remember, it's been far too long). Every time the Lady mazes you, you go to your same maze.
As for why you go to the same maze, it's stated in one of the books, I believe, that everyone has their own personal maze (in the ethereal plane? I don't remember, it's been far too long). Every time the Lady mazes you, you go to your same maze.
Blink Blink. But theres an exit to each of the Mazes. If you are sent back to a maze where you know the exit is hidden doesn't that defeat the purpose? Or is it the same but the exit has been moved to another part of it?
-Eric Gorman
I think it's interesting in PS:T that you get mazed only for a first offense and flayed for a second. Clearly, you've been mazed before (your personal maze is still sitting around waiting for you, after all), but the Lady still views the action that prompts the mazing as a first offense.
Maybe the rule is that you only get flayed after your 90th offense, and you've already been mazed 88 times before the game begins.
Or maybe she's sympathetic to amnesiacs.
I consider this to be evidence that Our Lady of Pain is not lawful.
I think it's interesting in PS:T that you get mazed only for a first offense and flayed for a second. Clearly, you've been mazed before (your personal maze is still sitting around waiting for you, after all), but the Lady still views the action that prompts the mazing as a first offense.
It's also likely that every time you "forgot" yourself and rose as a new incarnation, you were essentially a new person - a "Tabula Rasa" so to speak.
So the Lady tries you as a juvenile and not as a repeat offender :P
Pity the Devils don't seem to take the same view :D
I consider this to be evidence that Our Lady of Pain is not lawful.
Here here.
::The young factol stares straight ahead, as if at a spot days beyond the narrow walls of her chamber, then nods once, curtly::
Agreed. And I will not be so lenient when the time comes to peel the flesh from her bladed bones.
::Alisohn's face contorts with worry. She begins to pull at her hair and rend the flesh of her arms with her fingernails::
Musn't say such things out loud! Musn't out loud, oh not yet. Bad girl! Submit to your punishment! Bad girl!
Any thoughts?
I'm asking this for a friend who loves minotaurs, can minotaurs be mazed, my opinion is yes because even with thier special ability against maze spells I'm pretty sure Our Lady's power over rides it.
Any thoughts?
I'd be inclined to say yes. As a general rule, nothing overcomes the power of the Lady.
I'm asking this for a friend who loves minotaurs, can minotaurs be mazed, my opinion is yes because even with thier special ability against maze spells I'm pretty sure Our Lady's power over rides it.
Any thoughts?
Yes, since Her Serenity's power's only similarity to a maze spell is in name only. And since minotaurs have an innate ability to resist maze spells and such things, and that Her Serenity's mazes seem to personalize to each occupant, I'd hate to see what form they take to accomodate one of them...
I told my friend I was right and he reilizes that he has to be a good boy in Sigil.
Are undead welcome in Sigil?
Are undead welcome in Sigil?
Sure, just ask the dusties :D.
1. The Maze might have an exit, but the prisoner may be physically unable to make use of it. The portal may be two times smaller than the minotaur. It can also be placed on the bottom of a very deep pond. Or one hundred meters over the surface of the floor. There is a lot of possibilities.
2. The key may be very difficult to find, or use.
3. The portal must lead back to Sigil but there is no guarantee that the exit must be safe. It could be placed in the forgotten cell in the Prison, above the ooze portal, in the Factol Skall's office. Our pleasant Gatehouse also won't be bad :evillaugh
Yes, he found the exit
Did he really find the exit, or was the exit just a part of an even larger maze? Looping endlessly through time seems like a maze to me; it's possible that one of his incarnations might yet find the true exit, one variation of Gifad, the Ancient Wizard, or the Duke who dares make a choice his predecessors didn't, and come out at some point in history the wiser for the experience.
Did he really find the exit, or was the exit just a part of an even larger maze? Looping endlessly through time seems like a maze to me; it's possible that one of his incarnations might yet find the true exit, one variation of Gifad, the Ancient Wizard, or the Duke who dares make a choice his predecessors didn't, and come out at some point in history the wiser for the experience.
Interesting... I had never thought of it that way before. Makes sense, and I like it muchly. What would happen if he ever did actually get out?
In fact, isn't it possible that in subtle ways, she manipulates the city with mazes? Consider: you're in the Clerk's ward, you have an important engagement in fifteen minutes, and you aren't going to make it. And now, you took a wrong turn down an alley.
You're all alone, and for a moment you're lost. Then, you see a door, duck through, and find yourself right in front of the Gatehouse, somehow ten minutes early. You pause for breath, noticing that a copper
The Lady has control over the fate of the city. But does she control? Perhaps she can not only take the drastic measures we've seen displayed so prominatly: the slaughter of her worshipers in Harbinger House, the banishment of factols and entire factions. At times, a finer level of control may be called for in the quest towards... whatever end she drives at.
Or that might just be screed.
PS: Faceless One, I'd like to think the long list of other things the Lady is belies the idea of her being Lawful Neutral.
Well, maybe nor killing dabus, but it does work if you worship Aoskar or the Lady.
Actually, you can get mazed in Torment for killing Dabus, it's just that you have to kill more than one. And almost everyone else in the area besides.
I know because I've gone on killing sprees with the express purpose of getting flayed. You have to wipe out basically everyone in two or three areas. The funny thing is, your alignment becomes Chaotic before it become Evil.
Did he really find the exit, or was the exit just a part of an even larger maze? Looping endlessly through time seems like a maze to me; it's possible that one of his incarnations might yet find the true exit, one variation of Gifad, the Ancient Wizard, or the Duke who dares make a choice his predecessors didn't, and come out at some point in history the wiser for the experience.
I know that in the original boxed set, it stated that each maze Her Serenity created had but one exit... which would sometimes be almost impossible to discover by those trapped inside. But, what would the likelihood be that Her Serenity would simply keeping creating loops in certain mazes in an effort to keep certain canny individuals from finding their way out?
Putting aside the dodgy issue of choosing to meddle with someone the Lady has seen fit to maze - what purpose would there be in later sending Timlin (the ex-factol) back to the same maze since he would then know the exit? I would assume the mazes are always different.
-Eric Gorman
what purpose would there be in later sending Timlin (the ex-factol) back to the same maze since he would then know the exit? I would assume the mazes are always different.
Instead, I'd assume that the mazes are occasionally different, when it becomes necessary for them to be.
You can (and I already have) argue that Darkwood's second maze (the time loop) is very different from his original maze (the normal, ethereal one).
You can (and I already have) argue that Darkwood's second maze (the time loop) is very different from his original maze (the normal, ethereal one).
I'd like to hear that argument...