Orc Replacement Suggestion? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Orc Replacement Suggestion?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
darkjedi26
Dec 17, 2004 11:10:12 I'm about to start running a party through the Worlds Largest Dungeon mod and were setting in in the Dragonlance world. The first party of the dungeon has the PCs dealing with orcs. So I need to switch them out for an equivelent CR 1 creature. Any suggestions?
#2
zombiegleemax
Dec 17, 2004 11:15:02 I'd go with Hobgoblins.
#3
Sysane
Dec 17, 2004 11:24:12
I'm about to start running a party through the Worlds Largest Dungeon mod and were setting in in the Dragonlance world. The first party of the dungeon has the PCs dealing with orcs. So I need to switch them out for an equivelent CR 1 creature. Any suggestions?

Thats a good Module. We're playing that at my local game store. The DM is running 4 different groups for Worlds Largest. Its been a blast so far!
#4
cam_banks
Dec 17, 2004 12:27:04
I'd go with Hobgoblins.

People always equate orcs and hobgoblins as being equivalent, but they really aren't. The only thing they have in common is 1 hit die.

But, that said, there aren't a lot of other CR 1/2 humanoid monsters in the Monster Manual. You're looking primarily for a low-level chaotic humanoid, if you're replacing orcs, which can be tough to find.

Cheers,
Cam
#5
clarkvalentine
Dec 17, 2004 12:34:35 Narcs.

(What, nobody's read Bored of the Rings?)
#6
cam_banks
Dec 17, 2004 12:43:21 Actually, any ECL +0 player character race with 1 level in warrior would be a CR 1/2 encounter. You could replace the orcs with a lot of Theiwar or Daergar dwarves, for example. Or tieflings, but then that would be odd.

Cheers,
Cam
#7
zombiegleemax
Dec 17, 2004 18:38:07 Serverly handicapped draconians would work. Nothing like fighting a draconian on crutches.
#8
zombiegleemax
Dec 20, 2004 7:18:29
Any suggestions?

How about using Tarmaks (from Age of Mortals) their alot like Half-orcs.
#9
wolf72
Dec 20, 2004 10:43:08
Serverly handicapped draconians would work. Nothing like fighting a draconian on crutches.

the proto-template from Bestiary of Krynn would be perfect for handicapped drac's ... there is even an example of Baaz proto-draconian (traag) ...
#10
eaglos
Dec 20, 2004 14:36:03 How about kobolds? Does anyone use them?
#11
XIII
Dec 20, 2004 15:46:10 How about Bakali? (lizard folk) ? many not as "civilized" but it worked well for me.
#12
zombiegleemax
Dec 20, 2004 20:55:13
How about kobolds? Does anyone use them?

I use them all the time. There's one in particular that is a constant thorn in my groups side. He's managed to survive 2 deaths and having his ears cut off, then he killed the dwarven wizard's brother, so there's a lot of emnity between the party and this exteremly lucky and annoying kobold.
#13
zombiegleemax
Dec 21, 2004 10:08:48
People always equate orcs and hobgoblins as being equivalent, but they really aren't. The only thing they have in common is 1 hit die.

Well stylistically they are very similar (both seem derivative of Uruk-hai), and they pose about the same level of threat to any given group. Hobgoblins are certainly closer to orcs than Theiwar. ;)
#14
zombiegleemax
Dec 21, 2004 10:27:12 Why not just use the orcs´ stats, but call them goblins or hobgoblins?
#15
cam_banks
Dec 21, 2004 10:45:07
Well stylistically they are very similar (both seem derivative of Uruk-hai), and they pose about the same level of threat to any given group. Hobgoblins are certainly closer to orcs than Theiwar. ;)

Stylistically, hobgoblins were derivative of certain kinds of oni or bakemono (muchlike the ogre mage) and Gygax's original intent was for them to have those associations. Orcs were, obviously, derived from Tolkien's orcs. You'll note that originally, orcs in D&D had pig faces or snouts and hobgoblins had pseudo-Samurai armor and curved swords, looking like demonic Mongol raiders from beyond the Great Wall.

Pig faces and Asian armor have more or less faded from the current portrayals of these races but there are lingering vestiges of it. Certainly Dragonlance melded some of the worst traits of orcs into hobgoblins for lack of an available orc to use on hand, but it'd be incorrect to say that they're functionally identical creatures.

Cheers,
Cam
#16
zombiegleemax
Dec 21, 2004 11:09:10
Stylistically, hobgoblins were derivative of...You'll note that originally, orcs in D&D...

Oh I'm aware that hobgoblins and orcs *were* more stylistically different at one time, but that doesn't change the fact that right now, under 3.5 rules, I don't see any Dragonlance species being closer to an orc than a hobgoblin.

Except maybe those darn half-orcs that pop up every now and then. ;)
#17
cam_banks
Dec 21, 2004 12:36:52
Oh I'm aware that hobgoblins and orcs *were* more stylistically different at one time, but that doesn't change the fact that right now, under 3.5 rules, I don't see any Dragonlance species being closer to an orc than a hobgoblin.

It really does depend, in that case, on what role the orcs occupy in the adventure. It's much easier to replace a random encounter table entry of "Orc warband (1d4+4)" with "Hobgoblin patrol (1d4+4)" than uproot an orc camp and orc NPCs and drop hobgoblins in there to replace them. Hobgoblins are lawful evil, use different methods in combat and organization, have a different outlook, employ different equipment and have different allies than orcs. They're faster, gain different sorts of bonuses, have different strengths and weaknesses than orcs.

On the other hand, maybe none of that matters overmuch. I think that, at the end of the day, replacing a tribe of chaotic evil orcs with chaotic evil dwarves would make much more sense.

Cheers,
Cam
#18
ferratus
Dec 21, 2004 15:45:49 Well, it isn't that cut and dried.

1) The Hobgoblins in dragonlance are not a seperate species, but rather a subspecies of goblins (chaotic evil). The goblins in turn, are a subspecies of ogre (again chaotic evil).

2) Instead of worshipping Sargonnas, the Hobgoblins worship Usk-Do (Hiddukel) a chaotic evil diety.

So it seems likely that the hobgoblins on Krynn are chaotic evil, or at the very least, certain tribes of hobgoblins are likely to be.
#19
zombiegleemax
Dec 21, 2004 16:52:16
Orcs were, obviously, derived from Tolkien's orcs. You'll note that originally, orcs in D&D had pig faces or snouts and hobgoblins had pseudo-Samurai armor and curved swords, looking like demonic Mongol raiders from beyond the Great Wall.

According to Tolkien though, orcs and goblins were the same thing. He decided to use the word "orc" to distinguish his creatures from the mythological form of the "goblin." D&D seperated orcs and goblins into two races, with goblins being closer to Tolkien's goblins, or orcs. The orcs seem a bit closer to the Uruk-Hai, although according to Tolkien the Uruk-Hai were half-orc/half human.

-Angus
#20
wolffenjugend_dup
Dec 23, 2004 19:42:30 I want to run the WotC adventure "The Forge of Fury" and I need to replace the orcs. Suggestions?

Goblins?
Hobgoblins?
Bugbears?
Gnolls?

The adventure is for 3rd-4th level characters but we'll be running a group of three 5th-lvl so the replacement can be a little hardier than orcs.

Suggestions?

p.s. the adventure takes place in a ruined dwarven delve. Any suggestions on where it should take place in the DL world?
#21
wolf72
Dec 24, 2004 10:36:50 I'd go with gnolls or bugbears ... but bugbears have the potential to really really tough.
#22
zombiegleemax
Dec 24, 2004 12:34:39 I personally don't think it's very problematic to simply replace the orcs with hobgoblins. Not being familiar with the adventure, I'd imagine I'd have an easier time replacing whatever motives the orcs have with hobgoblin motives than it would be to reconcile more "civilized" races into the role. Even if the fit isn't perfect, I think it maintains the general monster niche well enough to be an effective patch. I think the arguments about the cultures of hobgoblins and orcs being so different on the law/chaos axis can be overlooked since it's a single encounter in a dungeon crawl that's being changed, not an entire people in a more socio-political, diplomatic roleplay oriented adventure.
#23
wolffenjugend_dup
Dec 24, 2004 12:52:38 I'm tempted to use gnolls/bugbears for their chaotic nature better matches that of the orcs in the adventure and the party is a little above the recommended power level.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 darkjedi26 Dec 17, 2004 11:10:12	I'm about to start running a party through the Worlds Largest Dungeon mod and were setting in in the Dragonlance world. The first party of the dungeon has the PCs dealing with orcs. So I need to switch them out for an equivelent CR 1 creature. Any suggestions?
#2 zombiegleemax Dec 17, 2004 11:15:02	I'd go with Hobgoblins.
#3 Sysane Dec 17, 2004 11:24:12	I'm about to start running a party through the Worlds Largest Dungeon mod and were setting in in the Dragonlance world. The first party of the dungeon has the PCs dealing with orcs. So I need to switch them out for an equivelent CR 1 creature. Any suggestions? Thats a good Module. We're playing that at my local game store. The DM is running 4 different groups for Worlds Largest. Its been a blast so far!
#4 cam_banks Dec 17, 2004 12:27:04	I'd go with Hobgoblins. People always equate orcs and hobgoblins as being equivalent, but they really aren't. The only thing they have in common is 1 hit die. But, that said, there aren't a lot of other CR 1/2 humanoid monsters in the Monster Manual. You're looking primarily for a low-level chaotic humanoid, if you're replacing orcs, which can be tough to find. Cheers, Cam
#5 clarkvalentine Dec 17, 2004 12:34:35	Narcs. (What, nobody's read Bored of the Rings?)
#6 cam_banks Dec 17, 2004 12:43:21	Actually, any ECL +0 player character race with 1 level in warrior would be a CR 1/2 encounter. You could replace the orcs with a lot of Theiwar or Daergar dwarves, for example. Or tieflings, but then that would be odd. Cheers, Cam
#7 zombiegleemax Dec 17, 2004 18:38:07	Serverly handicapped draconians would work. Nothing like fighting a draconian on crutches.
#8 zombiegleemax Dec 20, 2004 7:18:29	Any suggestions? How about using Tarmaks (from Age of Mortals) their alot like Half-orcs.
#9 wolf72 Dec 20, 2004 10:43:08	Serverly handicapped draconians would work. Nothing like fighting a draconian on crutches. the proto-template from Bestiary of Krynn would be perfect for handicapped drac's ... there is even an example of Baaz proto-draconian (traag) ...
#10 eaglos Dec 20, 2004 14:36:03	How about kobolds? Does anyone use them?
#11 XIII Dec 20, 2004 15:46:10	How about Bakali? (lizard folk) ? many not as "civilized" but it worked well for me.
#12 zombiegleemax Dec 20, 2004 20:55:13	How about kobolds? Does anyone use them? I use them all the time. There's one in particular that is a constant thorn in my groups side. He's managed to survive 2 deaths and having his ears cut off, then he killed the dwarven wizard's brother, so there's a lot of emnity between the party and this exteremly lucky and annoying kobold.
#13 zombiegleemax Dec 21, 2004 10:08:48	People always equate orcs and hobgoblins as being equivalent, but they really aren't. The only thing they have in common is 1 hit die. Well stylistically they are very similar (both seem derivative of Uruk-hai), and they pose about the same level of threat to any given group. Hobgoblins are certainly closer to orcs than Theiwar. ;)
#14 zombiegleemax Dec 21, 2004 10:27:12	Why not just use the orcs´ stats, but call them goblins or hobgoblins?
#15 cam_banks Dec 21, 2004 10:45:07	Well stylistically they are very similar (both seem derivative of Uruk-hai), and they pose about the same level of threat to any given group. Hobgoblins are certainly closer to orcs than Theiwar. ;) Stylistically, hobgoblins were derivative of certain kinds of oni or bakemono (muchlike the ogre mage) and Gygax's original intent was for them to have those associations. Orcs were, obviously, derived from Tolkien's orcs. You'll note that originally, orcs in D&D had pig faces or snouts and hobgoblins had pseudo-Samurai armor and curved swords, looking like demonic Mongol raiders from beyond the Great Wall. Pig faces and Asian armor have more or less faded from the current portrayals of these races but there are lingering vestiges of it. Certainly Dragonlance melded some of the worst traits of orcs into hobgoblins for lack of an available orc to use on hand, but it'd be incorrect to say that they're functionally identical creatures. Cheers, Cam
#16 zombiegleemax Dec 21, 2004 11:09:10	Stylistically, hobgoblins were derivative of...You'll note that originally, orcs in D&D... Oh I'm aware that hobgoblins and orcs were more stylistically different at one time, but that doesn't change the fact that right now, under 3.5 rules, I don't see any Dragonlance species being closer to an orc than a hobgoblin. Except maybe those darn half-orcs that pop up every now and then. ;)
#17 cam_banks Dec 21, 2004 12:36:52	Oh I'm aware that hobgoblins and orcs were more stylistically different at one time, but that doesn't change the fact that right now, under 3.5 rules, I don't see any Dragonlance species being closer to an orc than a hobgoblin. It really does depend, in that case, on what role the orcs occupy in the adventure. It's much easier to replace a random encounter table entry of "Orc warband (1d4+4)" with "Hobgoblin patrol (1d4+4)" than uproot an orc camp and orc NPCs and drop hobgoblins in there to replace them. Hobgoblins are lawful evil, use different methods in combat and organization, have a different outlook, employ different equipment and have different allies than orcs. They're faster, gain different sorts of bonuses, have different strengths and weaknesses than orcs. On the other hand, maybe none of that matters overmuch. I think that, at the end of the day, replacing a tribe of chaotic evil orcs with chaotic evil dwarves would make much more sense. Cheers, Cam
#18 ferratus Dec 21, 2004 15:45:49	Well, it isn't that cut and dried. 1) The Hobgoblins in dragonlance are not a seperate species, but rather a subspecies of goblins (chaotic evil). The goblins in turn, are a subspecies of ogre (again chaotic evil). 2) Instead of worshipping Sargonnas, the Hobgoblins worship Usk-Do (Hiddukel) a chaotic evil diety. So it seems likely that the hobgoblins on Krynn are chaotic evil, or at the very least, certain tribes of hobgoblins are likely to be.
#19 zombiegleemax Dec 21, 2004 16:52:16	Orcs were, obviously, derived from Tolkien's orcs. You'll note that originally, orcs in D&D had pig faces or snouts and hobgoblins had pseudo-Samurai armor and curved swords, looking like demonic Mongol raiders from beyond the Great Wall. According to Tolkien though, orcs and goblins were the same thing. He decided to use the word "orc" to distinguish his creatures from the mythological form of the "goblin." D&D seperated orcs and goblins into two races, with goblins being closer to Tolkien's goblins, or orcs. The orcs seem a bit closer to the Uruk-Hai, although according to Tolkien the Uruk-Hai were half-orc/half human. -Angus
#20 wolffenjugend_dup Dec 23, 2004 19:42:30	I want to run the WotC adventure "The Forge of Fury" and I need to replace the orcs. Suggestions? Goblins? Hobgoblins? Bugbears? Gnolls? The adventure is for 3rd-4th level characters but we'll be running a group of three 5th-lvl so the replacement can be a little hardier than orcs. Suggestions? p.s. the adventure takes place in a ruined dwarven delve. Any suggestions on where it should take place in the DL world?
#21 wolf72 Dec 24, 2004 10:36:50	I'd go with gnolls or bugbears ... but bugbears have the potential to really really tough.
#22 zombiegleemax Dec 24, 2004 12:34:39	I personally don't think it's very problematic to simply replace the orcs with hobgoblins. Not being familiar with the adventure, I'd imagine I'd have an easier time replacing whatever motives the orcs have with hobgoblin motives than it would be to reconcile more "civilized" races into the role. Even if the fit isn't perfect, I think it maintains the general monster niche well enough to be an effective patch. I think the arguments about the cultures of hobgoblins and orcs being so different on the law/chaos axis can be overlooked since it's a single encounter in a dungeon crawl that's being changed, not an entire people in a more socio-political, diplomatic roleplay oriented adventure.
#23 wolffenjugend_dup Dec 24, 2004 12:52:38	I'm tempted to use gnolls/bugbears for their chaotic nature better matches that of the orcs in the adventure and the party is a little above the recommended power level.