The concept of Tharizdun being asleep and trying to re-awaken sounds an awful lot like the gnostic and/or eastern conception of the Universal Parent or the God-beyond-God trying to come to "One-ness." To the Orthodox, this re-awakening = Destruction, i.e., destruction of the Multiverse as they know it. To the Tharizdunian Gnostic, this re-awakening means a return to our home, a reunification with the godhead, and is not "Destruction," but rather a return to wholeness. Also compare with the Buddhist/Hindu concept of Maya, the world of Illusion in which we live and must struggle to overcome through meditation. Could this be all the followers of Tharizdun are trying to communicate and achieve? Orthodox religions feel threatened by this doctrine because it essentially removes the need for priests as intermediaries between the Divine and mortal kind, and instead invites a direct experience and confirmation of the godhead into the individual's life.
What do you folks think of this idea? I think it is something I would like to develop, and look forward to your comments.
Maybe, in this way, we could rescue Tharizdun from an uninteresting existence in the World of Greyhawk, by giving IT an unexpected twist.
With my Luther in the Pale thread, I've noticed a lot of similarities between Greyhawk religious themes and those of our own earth. Sometimes, matching them to earths can make up a more meaningful campaign.
Miles.
Orthodox religions feel threatened by this doctrine because it essentially removes the need for priests as intermediaries between the Divine and mortal kind, and instead invites a direct experience and confirmation of the godhead into the individual's life.
Not to start a religion debate but much of the christian faith no longer believes that a priest or divine individual is needed for a direct experience with God. Priests/ Divine individuals rather serve as teachers to strengthen one's faith and walk with christ. Once again not sure how this impacts the your idea of Tharizdun or the thread but wanted to make this comment, sorry to throw a wrench in the spokes. And I know that the christian church I am talking about is not considered the orthodox church but is none the less a church of christianity.
This is exactly what I am talking about for Greyhawk. Tharizdunism represents a system of belief that says direct experience of the divine brings salvation. One may have teachers, but once one has become an initiate there is no authority higher than your own experience of the divine. All the various gods with their hierarchies, and particularly their authoritarian insistence on BLIND FAITH in the god have declared Tharizdunians heretical. Worse than that, as was the case with Gnosticism (up until 10 years ago, in my ignorance I thought Gnostics were evil), the dominant religions of Greyhawk have painted Tharizdun as an all-consuming evil that seeks nothing short of the total destruction of the Multiverse. In effect, they have mis-interpreted and mis-represented the teachings of Tharizdunians and painted a very bleak picture these practitioners. Not so, say his followers. They hold that mortal kind is slowly evolving toward One-ness with the Universal Parent, Tharizdun, one soul at a time. To the Tharizdunian, the standard gods are nothing more than souls who have lost their way and deluded themselves into thinking that they are gods, demanding worship of their followers, and what not; or, in the case of the "good" gods, they are "angels" and guides helping to shepherd mortal kind toward finally merging with the god-head. Sort of how in certain strains of Buddhism, once one becomes enlightened one doesn't just rush off to Nirvana, but instead stays behind to help others achieve enlightenment.
How your comments effect Greyhawk: well, you have just pointed out that things aren't always black and white, and the view of Christianity you espouse would certainly draw some argument from more hardline Orthodoxies, right? Same in Greyhawk. Imagine a schism in the church of Wee Jas over whether she is literally a goddess of magic up in her heaven over-seeing things, or if she is just an archetypal image that helps a wizard achieve perfection in magic by contemplating her myth cycle.
In my campaigns, I tend to see "good" and "evil" (and for that matter, "law" and "chaos") as objective forces (as is assumed in the core rules), but without actually having much to do with morality, despite the names given to these forces.
Tharizdun and his followers may be aligned with the objective force that is called "evil", but they need not see themselves as being morally evil in fact.
Makes perfect sense to me (whether or not it does to anyone else).
Enter the other deities who have a vested interest in things remaining as they are. They capture Tharizdun and put him in a jail that - they hope - will hold for a looooong time.
EGG description of Tharizdun's prison being made of his own power turned against him could be seen as proof of that.
Of course, it doesn't explain the whole "Tharizdun = uber-master of everything evil" concept but it's another angle with which to surprise players...
I always saw Tharizdun as a "mad creator"-type of deity. The kind that is pure Chaos. He begins by creating Oerth (and Greyspace) and then, driven by the need to always implement changes and begin anew, decides to "erase" his creation and redo it from scratch.
Enter the other deities who have a vested interest in things remaining as they are. They capture Tharizdun and put him in a jail that - they hope - will hold for a looooong time.
EGG description of Tharizdun's prison being made of his own power turned against him could be seen as proof of that.
Interesting thought about his own power being used to imprison him. Would the prison also continue to change and recreate itself around him, thus making it near impossible to ever escape it? I mean eventually the prison would have to return to a previous form of some kind, unless it can recreate into a infinite number of differences.
So I just see this mass of energy enclosing this black mass and continually swirling and morphing like an amoeba on crack or something....
Ok, well enough rambling i guess..
Interesting thought about his own power being used to imprison him. Would the prison also continue to change and recreate itself around him, thus making it near impossible to ever escape it? I mean eventually the prison would have to return to a previous form of some kind, unless it can recreate into a infinite number of differences.
So I just see this mass of energy enclosing this black mass and continually swirling and morphing like an amoeba on crack or something....
Ok, well enough rambling i guess..
It's not my idea. E.G.G. described it in the Gord novel Artifact of Evil, p.47.
I knew this topic would generate some great discussion.
As for being Evil, Tharizdun is more than just that to me. He's primal chaos; both creation and destruction. The rest of the intelligent beings in the cosmos simply have no motivation to understand something that would unmake them all utterly as anything other than "Evil."
From that I understand that there are three meta-gods and that Tharizdun is like an offspring of one of them.
I like Rumblebelly's ideas about adapting Gnosticism a lot, but IMC Tharizdun remains NE, and the enlightenment profferred by teachers of his wisdom manifests as madness to mortal perceptions. I lack time presently to engage this thread at length, but I like that it implies a great deal about the powers of monks, psionics, druids, and practioners of the Fey Mysteries, the Far Realm, and other aspects of Oerth's cosmos.
In some of my CthulhuHawk campaigns past, I've used "Tharizdun" as a code-word/legendary name for the group of gods who were imprisoned/cast out/are-not-here-now and who will eventually return again when the stars are right. So, while the uninitiated speak of Tharizdun as a single entity/being/god/creature/whatever, the true believers know that Tharizdun is only a metaphor, a blind, and that Oerth will one day shiver from the tread of Nyarlathotep, blanch at the howling pipes of Azathoth (and you always thought Heward's Mystical Organ was a good-guy artifact...), and be subsumed with dreamy madness when Great Cthulhu arose from the sunken Isles of Woe once more.....
I love this idea! I have run some CthulhuHawk-like campaigs in the past, and for some reason never thought of the Tharizdun/Cthulhu-Mythos connection. In a future campaign I may just adopt it. The most memorable adventure took place in a Greyspace Spelljammer trek to an asteroid in the Grinder. Think "At the Mountains of Madness" on an aeons-old asteroid. The adventurerers kept finding ripped up journal pages describing an ill-fated expedition to the asteroid, until they finally encountered the t-k-li-li piping Shoggoths themselves. I've never gotten such a scare out of a group of players as I did in that adventure. Not even in Ravenloft. Yeah, good times.
For my present campaign, Yamo hit the nail-on-the-head when he described Tharizdun as "... primal chaos; both creation and destruction. The rest of the intelligent beings in the cosmos simply have no motivation to understand something that would unmake them all utterly as anything other than 'Evil.'" The other GH religions can't understand the teaching of followers of Tharizdun, the plenum, so they assume it must be evil. Introducing the idea of Gnosticism expands this concept further by giving an evolutionary goal to the Multiverse; to return to the source, as it were. But I should say that it's not just gnosticism that is inspiring my vision for Tharizdun, but also some aspects of eastern thought and Rosicrucianism. And, as Tizoc points out, I like the implications this idea has for Psionics, etc. I know many, many explications have been written of just what the difference between psionics and magic are, but I'm beginning to formulate the idea that psionics and monk-like powers are the direct result of a kind of "gnosis," as opposed to magic which is a manipulation of the physical laws of the Multiverse.
While this is only one point of a larger "argument," it caught my eye because people in the GH campaign setting don't rely on blind faith, if by that term we mean belief in things unseen. Instead, clerics demonstrate very tangible effects of their faith.
Does this point change the "argument" substantially?
While this is only one point of a larger "argument," it caught my eye because people in the GH campaign setting don't rely on blind faith, if by that term we mean belief in things unseen. Instead, clerics demonstrate very tangible effects of their faith.
That's subject to debate. Yes, in GH (as in other settings) clerics can see that something happens when they cast their spells but I doubt many of them have "seen" their god(s) face to face. So, in a manner of speaking, they do rely on blind faith but experience tangible results of its rewards.
Clerics of Tharizdun are good examples of this considering that, at best, their deity can send them only dreams/nightmares. Yet, they continue to believe He exists and to serve Him.
The Truth that mystics and gnostic followers of Tharizdun arrive at through meditation and a stripping away of pre-conceived notions, whether about how magic works, or the nature of good and evil, is that each individual soul is a sliver of divinity evolving back to the Source, the All, the Oneness, the Godhead, or however you want to look at it.
My proposal is that this Source in my GH Universe is called Tharizdun by some, and has been villified by the other religions of GH, because in a sense the teachings of the Gnostic Tharizdunians threaten the social structures that the other religions have put in place, and in a very REAL sense will serve to destroy the Multiverse as those engaged in consenses reality have come to see it.
If anyone is interested in seeing a write-up of my GURPS/Greyhawk/Talislanta magic system, I'd be happy to send them the manuscript; I just don't want to make it public because I have not yet had time to edit out the parts that I copied verbatim from the Talislanta rule book, because in the beginning it was meant for my players only. I have no intention of stepping the good folks at Shooting Irons Press' toes and infringing their copy-rights.
A thread at the Realms of Evil Greyhawk forum, at http://greyhawkonline.com/pitsofevil/viewtopic.php?t=3388, discusses the Serpent, which has been described as an anthropomorphizing metaphor for magic in the multiverse, or Asmodeus.
I note that because it could be linked to Rumblebelly's version of Tharizdun. IMCs, I link Tharizdun to Faluzure, a draconic god of darkness and enervation that Carl Sargent introduced, in Monster Mythology (a 2e product), I think.
I'll end by noting that in addition to Grodog, other GH fans have imagined that Tharizdun names a set of related elder gods. Part of their inspiration derived from versions of the Old Testament in an ancient language (Aramaic? Hebrew?). As I understand it, in this/these language(s), Yahweh refers to multiple gods. Alternatively the untranslated versions refer to Yahweh, a singular and masculine being, and some other name that I forget presently, which refers to multiple female beings.
Sorry to be vague, but I don't recall this adequately...
Very interesting Rumblebelly. Your use of GURPS appears to demonstrate the proposition that different game systems tend to suggest different possibilities for various Greyhawk campaigns.
Most definitely, but it was the introduction of the Talislanta magic system that really presented the different conceptual possibilities to me. So now, I can utilize about a dozen different Orders of Magic: Wizardry, Cartomancy, Crystalomancy, Elementalism, Shamanism, Witchcraft, Necromancy, etc., though the game mechanics (how much damage spells do, the limits of divinations, etc.) are the same for each order.
Without knowing how they operate or are described, to me, Wizardry seems to name in general how humans on the Flanaess practice magic -- especially the traditions established by the Oeridian "battle-mages" of which we learned from Sargent's Ivid: the Undying. Even before the Al'Qadim campaign setting was released, some GH fans had remarked that Elementalism seemed to be a good way to distinguish the Baklunish tradition of magic-use. Similarly Shamanism and Druidism seem useful for representing magic-users of Flan, Olman, and perhaps Touv traditions. Necromancy and Demonology, of course, are classic "evil" traditions of magic-use. Similarly, some fans favor the existence of Witchcraft, as a distinct folk tradition marked by the Flan matriarchies that once existed from the Sheldomar Valley to the current-day Wild Coast and Plains of Greyhawk. Finally, many cultures of the Flanaess seem to have valued Astrology, which D&D has never adequately represented, IMO.
Rumblebelly, Tizoc, and others who may care: you may want to check out the free .pdf of Ars Magica 4th editon over on rpgnow.com---http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=774: the game features the best fantasy magic system that I have ever played (and I've used many fantasy systems, though not GURPS). The flexibility is enormous, and there are a few sites out there that adapts Ars Magica to 3e D&D too.
I have just recently checked out the Ars Magica system, and I have to admit I like it a lot. But I have already put so much work into Hybridizing GURPS and Talislanta, that this is what I use (had I found AM much sooner, I would have used it).
For those who are interested, I'll go ahead and post the parts of the Histories of Magic I wrote, since they are my mostly my original work, although the Natural Magic section is derived from Rob Vest's wonderful article on Druidism in the Flannaes. I left out the Theory parts and the game mechanic parts, since the mechanics might not work for most people on this forum, and the theory is almost verbatim copied from the Talislanta sourcebook. The last three Orders--Blood Magic, Sorcery and Wild Magic--are my additions to the basic Talislanta classification, based on good 'ol D&D staples.
Note that this history of magic assumes the timeline presented in the Oerth Journal articles by Steve Wilson and Len L.
A Brief History of the Theory and Practice of Magic in the Flanaess
The people of Oerth practice many types of magic, with each culture having its own traditions, theories, and techniques. Scholars have organized these differing traditions into Orders of Magic. An Order defines a way of casting spells that usually has its origin or the bulk of its major development within one cultural group, though it may have become diffused over the ages. The following discussion traces the history, theory and practice of the various orders of magic in the Flanaess, in loose order of historical significance or frequency of practice.
Wizardry
History
This Order, scholars regard as the legacy of the Oeridians (not surprisingly the bulk of these scholars are from Aerdi lands such as Rauxes, Rel Astra and Rel Mord). The Ancient Oeridians first discovered and developed this art while living in the shadow of the Suel Empire and the great Grey Elven realms of the West in the Crystalmist Mountains. Wizardry spread east when warfare between the Suel and Bakluni, and certain prophecies of Manifest Destiny, caused the Oeridian tribes to flee their homelands and pursue a policy of aggressive expansion. Driven by a sense of divine right to rule, the Oeridians rapidly developed into a warrior society and came into conflict with the Flanae who had earlier moved east and populated the continent. Thus, they chose to concentrate their magical studies on the art of warfare. At the height of its power, the most illustrious Oeridian realm, the Great Kingdom, spanned the length and breadth of the continent, and firmly entrenched the art of Wizardry in Oerik. With the later migrations of the Suel and the admixture of Flanae and even the Olve, Wizardry has expanded well beyond a simple tool of war. Magical Universities across the Flanaess now teach Wizardry as the primary magical discipline, believing it to be the essential discipline, all other Orders receiving supplemental treatment. The most well-known centers of study for Wizardry on Oerik are Greyhawk City, Rel Astra, Rel Mord, Rauxes, and Ekbir (though this city is more famous for its Elementalists).
Elemental Magic
History
The history and development of Elemental magic, as practiced by humans, is entangled with the history of the Suel Binders and the ages-old war between the Suel and Bakluni. In the first year of the Suel Dominion the mighty Mage Obendar and his lover Abis-ara-Tmat, using a Grey Elven text as reference, imprisoned the Elemental King Etherasra to punish him for the destruction of a Suel fleet in an earlier sea battle. One by one they trapped the Elemental Princes Cryonax (Cold), Imix (Fire), Ogremach (Earth), Olhydra (Water), Yan-C Bin (Air), Za ooze (Ooze), T’ Magmas (Magma), and Whisp (Smoke), making them all swear obedience, “as long as our King remains imprisoned.” Since this time, the Binders have played a part in every major turn of Suel history.
Many historians claim that the Grey Elves discovered the disciplines of Elemental Magic; others argue that they discovered only those of Air and Water, while the dwarves discovered the provinces of Fire and Earth deep in their mountain homes, near the roots of the world. In any case, the Ancient Suel, like their Oeridian counterparts, practiced Witchcraft almost exclusively until the Grey Elves befriended the Suel and taught them the ways of Elementalism. The Ancient Suel slowly began to deemphasize the practice of Witchcraft when they learned how to bind Elemental spirits and tortured the secrets of Elemental Magic out of the genies and Elemental Princes they had come to control. They became masters of the four elemental disciplines: Aeromancy, Pyromancy, Geomancy, and Aquamancy; and extended their control to the Para-Elemental Realms of smoke, ooze, cold, and magma, those fringe regions where elemental planes intersect and mix. The Bakluni, most famous for their Mysticism, learned the elemental arts in order to protect themselves from their enemies, the Suloise. To this date, some of the greatest Elementalists to walk the face of Oerth have called the Baklunish west their home, and the Zashassar Society of Ekbir embodies the longest tradition of continuous practice dating back to the Twin Cataclysms.
Rumors persist that the Bakluni first learned Elemental Magic from renegade Suel mages who committed some infraction against the Emporer and fled their homeland to keep their lives, setting up shop as teachers of magic in the Bakluni lands. Accepted Baklunish folklore states that the Elemental disciplines came down from the “Old Man on the Mountain,” but does not disclose the old man’s racial heritage. Most Bakluni assume he was Baklunish. Unfortunately, the Invoked Devastation destroyed any historical records that would corroborate the stories.
The Ancient study of Elemental Magic in the west culminated ultimately in the Invoked Devastation and the Rain of Colorless Fire, the Twin Cataclysms that destroyed the Suel and Bakluni human empires and spawned the diasporas of the Suel and Oeridian peoples eastward, leaving the Sea of Dust and the Bright Desert in their wake. Some say that the Dwarven Kingdoms of the west foreswore the use of all forms of non-Divine Magic after the destruction wrought by the Twin Cataclysms. Tradition has insured that most dwarves do not practice magic, even today, though there are exceptions. These mavericks rarely enjoy the favor of their dwarven peers, for they are perceived as cocky children, or worse yet, blasphemers, whose hubris causes them to disdain the guidance of the Morndinsamman (the gods of the Dwarven pantheon, headed by Moradin).
The practice of Elemental Magic spread through the human realms with the Suel migrations into the central Flanaess where the Oerdians picked it up. Today, Elemental Magic has become nearly as popular as Wizardry, due primarily to the enthusiastic adoption of these disciplines by the Oeridians who immediately saw the usefulness in their application to warfare.
Shamanism
History
Sages argue about which Order of Magic has the longest tradition of continuous practice in Oerik, Shamanism or Witchcraft, or indeed, whether or not one derives from the other. Certainly, they both show striking similarities: Witchcraft has the Law of Association and Shamanism the association of Totems. The fact that some type of Shamanic tradition has emerged in just about every primitive society recorded, including the numerous types of humanoids, demi-humans, and other sentient races that inhabit Oerth, tends to support the theory of Shamanism as the basic magic system sentient beings use. It has even re-emerged in the Suel Barbarian states of the north, whose people had long since forgotten the principles of more modern types of magical practice after the last Mage of Power Slerotin erased the memories of Elementalism and Wizardry from their minds, forcing them to settle the Thillonrian Peninsula bereft of their cultural heritage.
The near universal dispersion of Shamanism makes a historical treatment of the subject difficult, so an accounting of those societies that still practice the Order will suffice instead.
These include: the Frost, Snow, and Ice Barbarians; the Tiger and Wolf Nomads; the Rovers of the Barrens; the Savages of the Amedio Jungle and Hepmonaland; the humanoid tribes of the Pomarj and the Land of Iuz; the nomads of the Bright Desert; and just about anywhere civilization hasn’t quite taken hold, such as in the various mountains, hills, and valleys of the Flanaess.
Witchcraft
History
No one can say for sure whether the Ancient Suel or the Ancient Oeridians became the first to practice Witchcraft. All that anyone knows for sure is that by the time calendars came into wide use, both cultures had been practicing the art for a very long time. Historically, scholars have associated the Suloise practice of Witchcraft with the goddess Wee Jas and the god Syrul, while the Oeridian practice is associated with Johydee and Wenta.
Witchcraft spread east in the same manner that the other Orders of magic spread, with the Suel and Oeridian migrations, but it was the women of the tribe who transmitted its use across the Flanaess, for the men had long ago abandoned such practices in favor of the more ostentatious displays of Wizardry and Elemental magic, believing them to be more manly.
Several cultures now consider Witchcraft “black magic”, because of its subtle personal nature (using fingernails and hair trimming as components) and its ability to have long distance effects not available to, or at the least very difficult for, the other Orders. Another factor that has gone into muddying its reputation is that Wee Jas, one of its major patronesses from the Suel point of view, has taken on the aspect of a Death Goddess, and many mistakenly assume that this makes her a patron of necromancers; therefore, anyone who practices a strange and esoteric art and worships Wee Jas is a necromancer. Those who know the Stern Lady’s feelings regarding disturbing the dead, know this assumption has little truth. Neither has Syrul’s association—the god of lies, deceit, treachery, and false promises—with the practice done much to improve its reputation among superstitious folk. Among the Oeridians and the territories they held, Witchcraft enjoyed a much more benign reputation (even if patriarchal males derided it as a “woman’s art”) until its association with the god Incabulos. None can say precisely how this came about, though sages speculate that it happened around the time just before the crowning of the first Overking in Rauxes, when witches were encouraged to Hex the enemies of the Aerdi and make them more susceptible to illness and disease so that they might be conquered more easily.
Still more recently when Igwylv the “Withcqueen,” mother of the cambion demi-god Iuz, conquered Perrenland, the art of Witchcraft suffered a near-fatal blow to its reputation. Her moniker is both unfortunate and inaccurate, for the most appropriate description of her type of magic would be “Diabolist,” which amounts to an Invoker of Devils (see Invocation Magic).
Whatever the case, defenders of witchcraft point out that it’s what one does with the magic that makes it evil, not how it is practiced, and many men and women alike continue to pursue this oral tradition in secret in those areas where it has declined in popularity, or openly in cities such as Hardby, where it has been practiced and encouraged by the ruling Gynarchs for centuries.
Necromancy
History
Like St. Cuthbert and flat bread, Necromancy as commonly practiced today has its origins with the Flanae and not the Oeridians, as delusional scholars in Rauxes often claim. Even this claim is disputed by Suel scholars in Niole Dra who point out that the first lich ever created on Oerth was a Suel practitioner of Witchcraft (indeed, most liches seem to have been Suel mages; some scholars say this is due to the power of Wee Jas and not to any magical method of the Mage, as the literature often suggests). Still, no one will argue that the greatest practitioner of Necromancy to ever darken the face of Oerth was the Lich-King Vecna, the Whispered One, whose name is not even spoken aloud, most assuredly a Flanae ruler, indeed the first Flanae ruler of a civilized Flan state. Though some have made the case for a Suel origin for Necromancy, most scholars have come to agree that if Vecna did not invent the art, he pretty much perfected it, being the first Mage in recorded history to ever field an army of undead. Vecna possibly took inspiration from Nerull, the Flanae god of Death, extending and reversing the principles of Natural Magic, the magic of life, to the realm of death and decay.
It is understandable that the Olve hate and fear Necromancy so much, for it was Vecna and his undead minions that turned upon his erstwhile friend and mentor in the magical arts, Gilthonial the High King of Elvendom, destroying the High Seat of Elvendom, Erieadon, and the many-splendored City of Summer Stars. The Olve must also painfully acknowledge that both Vecna and the Suel studied the magical arts with them, so whether it was Suel Mages or Vecna himself that invented Necromancy, somehow, ironically, Elven magic is implicated.
Eventually, Vecna fell at the hands of his lieutenant Kas, for whom he had created an incredibly powerful sword, but by that time the secrets of Necromancy had already been passed on to Mages who served as officers in his kingdom, and from there became diffused throughout the Flanaess. Not surprisingly, most civilized nations forbid the practice of Necromancy on pain of death or worse fates, save in the Great Kingdom where it is taught in universities, and in lands such as Iuz and the Horned Society, where the ways of Death are the norm. Still, the lure of the mystery of death and the great power derived from its practice, compel at least some people to study its ways secretly in most lands.
Invocation
History
As long as sentient races have existed and worshipped their gods, so has Invocation magic been practiced in the service of religion. Sentient beings have always, since the Dawn of Time, turned to higher powers in times of need and sought their aid, adopting as their patrons those Powers that granted boons and in turn serving them as instructed. Not surprisingly, the Olve assert that it was their gods who first allowed them to call upon and receive their favor upon the Awakening. None can ascertain the truth of this claim, for it can only be found in the mists at the beginning of time, to which there can be no return.
Sentient beings have called upon a wide range of beings to aid them throughout the ages, including gods, greater elemental powers, devils, demons, alien entities and other unnamable things. The history of Invocation is the history of consciousness and so can no better be treated than the history of Shamanism, which perhaps serves as the precursor of Invocation.
Needless to say, Invocation is practiced universally across the Flanaess.
Natural Magic
History (adapted from an article by Rob Vest. Sorry, Rob, if it's too close to your original work. I just included it to be thorough with the histories, and you did a much better job summing it up than I would have.)
Natural Magic, or Druidism, known by laymen as the "Old Faith," is one of the oldest belief systems of the Flanaess, dating back to the days before the Twin Cataclysms. Authorities believe Druidism to have its origins among the ancient aboriginal Flan tribes of the Sheldomar river valley, where it was subsequently adopted and adapted by the migrating Oeridians, who spread the Old Faith to the shores of the Solnor Ocean and beyond. With the rise of civilization, many people of the Flanaess have abandoned the Old Faith, though many in rural areas still practice it.
The ancient druids held great power among the Flan and Oeridian tribes. Any major undertaking was doomed to fail without the consent of the druids. The Flanae looked to the Druids as the ultimate authority on everything from when and how wars were to be waged, crops were to be planted, alliances were to be forged, or children were to be reared. The ancient Druids acted not only as priests, but also as teachers, advisors, and judges. Violence against them was forbidden. Few events took place in the tribes that the druids didn't have a hand in. Though those days, for the most part, have long passed, there are few who do not respect (or fear) the power of the druids that remain.
Mysticism
History
Mysticism has historically been associated with the Bakluni; particularly the worshippers of Xan Yae and her servant Zuoken. Not much is known about this Order, because it has remained a sequestered and secretive practice for so long. Only recently have the monks of the Baklunish monasteries in the Sulhaut Mountains started to come east from the Bakluni lands, on a quest to find something, which they will not disclose to outsiders. They have also begun to establish monasteries in the eastern lands and for the first time in recorded History outsiders have been allowed to explore the secrets of mysticism. Thus far the city of Leukish in the Duchy of Urnst and the town of Safeton on the Wild Coast can boast of such monasteries.
Some also say that the Suel inhabitants of the Tilvanot Peninsula in the land of Shar also practice a form of Mysticism and have monasteries set up all over the countryside, though none have been allowed to visit these places. No one can say whether the Tilvan Mysticism derives from Baklunish Mysticism in the same manner that Bakluni Elemental Magic derives from Suel practices.
Of course, the Olve have their own brand of Mysticism as practiced by the priestesses and worshippers of Sehannine Moonbow, but still less is known about the Elven Mystic tradition than either the Suel or Bakluni, and practitioners of the other Orders of Magic do not consider Mysticism a magical art. Indeed, they barely believe in its efficacy because they can rarely see its results.
Cartomancy
History
No one knows much about the history of this obscure art save that until relatively recently it was practiced exclusively by the Rhennee, a gypsy-like race of Barge Folk that ply the Nyr Dyv (Lake of Unknown Depths) and the waterways that feed and drain it, such as the Selinten River. However, lay worshippers of gods of Luck, Destiny, Fate, Fortune and the like, such as Ralishaz, the Oeridian deity Rudd, the Bakluni goddess Istus, and the Suel god Norebo have recently begun trying their hands at turning a card or two. But no one has achieved the degree of proficiency that the Rhennee have. Anyone who visits the Nyr Dyv region and seriously requires a divination will go to the Rhennee and have their fortunes told by a Wise Woman using the Zhudor, the deck of cards that embodies the magic of luck, fate and destiny.
Crystalomancy
History
For once, the Olve do not have a claim on the origins of an Order of Magic. This Order originated with the deep gnomes, the Svirfneblin, long ages ago, somewhere deep beneath the Crystalmist Mountains. They discovered how to use the natural properties of crystals to create effects in the world that had great benefit for their survival. Given that they have traditionally lived in close proximity to such aggressive creatures as drow, illithid, and duerger, the Svirfneblin honed their abilities to create illusions with which to hide themselves and divinations to help them find the rich minerals hidden deep in the earth or warn them of eminent attacks. Though the Svirfneblin became wielders of illusion par excellence, they also developed many other powers that could accommodate many modes of magic, based on the innate properties of the particular crystal in question.
Naturally, the dwarves saw the practical uses of such crystals, particularly for their divination qualities, which would help them in their quest to find mithral, and adopted the practice of Crystalomancy. Even after the dwarves foreswore the use of all other Orders of non-divine magic, they continued to practice Crystalomancy, because they felt that their gods made the crystals with these properties, and therefore they were meant to use them. The Dwarves never did develop Crystalomancy for illusions; they don’t have a taste for such trickery, but they did in turn spread the Order to the surface dwelling cousins of the Svirfneblin, who quite quickly rediscovered the art of illusion, having a natural knack for it. Today, the most famous Crystalomancer gnome illusionists hail from the Good Hills in Sterich and have set up a kind of theme park that treats visitors to thrills and spells—for a small fee, one can ride on the back of a dragon, brave a fiery inferno, or defeat a famous warrior in battle. Needless to say, these gnomes have grown quite rich from their entertainment services.
Few other races outside of gnomes and dwarves actually practice Crystalomancy, for none seem to have an affinity for the art. However, one does find the occasional halfling, human or, even more rarely, grey elf trying his or her hand at it, usually in the Kron Hills region where elves, humans and gnomes have lived for a long time in close proximity.
Cryptomancy
History
Cryptomancy cannot be nailed down to any one culture or race, for every group of people that has developed a system of writing (and even some that haven’t) has discovered some aspect of the secrets of the art. Dwarven sages, Olve historians, and human devotees of Boccob the Uncaring all make use of the Order. Wizards will often pick up some skill in Cryptomancy so that they can create permanent wards to protect their spell books from meddlers and thieves, or decipher ancient manuscripts containing lost magical secrets.
The Suel barbarians of the Thillonrian Peninsula represent the most famous and special case of the practice of Cryptomancy, for they are on the whole an illiterate people. However, they have a class of priests called Runecasters that make use of this Order of Magic, as a gift from their Father-God Vatun.
Theologians speculate that the Suel god of thieves, Norebo, stole the secrets of Cryptomancy from his father Lendor, and in turn revealed them to the northern barbarians on behalf of his son Vatun, when the Oeridian god Telchur imprisoned the All-Father of the North. This Norebo did so that the people would not lose faith in Vatun, because of his failure to answer when called. Now the northern barbarians believe Cryptomancy to be the way in which Vatun prefers his priests to communicate with him, and they have developed a system of Runes for calling upon his aid. Little do they know that the magic is embodied in the Runes themselves and is not the result of the intervention of their deity.
Blood Magic
History
Blood Magic is an art that seems peculiar to the Yuan-ti and Olman savages of the southern jungles, though some travelers’ tales indicate that various humanoids around the Flanneass also practice this macabre brand of magic, as well as some Diabolists that have discovered its dark secrets in the jungles of the south, or from the Devils and Demons with whom they consort. Whatever the case, scholars universally consider the Order of Blood Magic a primitive art, a throw back to a pre-literate, unenlightened time in history. Many scholars cannot make the distinction between Blood Magic and Necromancy, both being an abhorrent, grisly practice in their eyes, and as such have failed to note the crucial differences between the two Orders. Certainly, necromancers of every stripe have recently become very interested in the secrets of Blood Magic, prompting Duxchaner and Holder mages who have visited the southern lands to offer the following history of the art.
The first Blood Mages were priests, shamans, and sorcerers dedicated to the gods of the Olman, who demanded blood sacrifices from their followers in order to grant them boons. These mages reasoned that if Blood served to power their deities, then perhaps it could also power the mages’ personal magic. Their guesses proved correct and the Blood Mages either in the guise of priests, sorcerers, shamans or witch doctors quickly grew to be the most influential members of Olman society.
In -1100 CY, a century before the great Olman migration into the Amedio jungle, the high priests of the city-states of Alocotla and Xapatlapo took part in such a gruesome ritual dedicated to their sinister gods that a curse befell them and stigmatized forever the civilized practice of Blood Magic in Hepmonaland. These priests made a dark pact with their gods that required the sacrificial consumption of over a thousand infants. All who partook of the grisly feast were reshaped into snake-like forms, with those who consumed the largest portions the most changed. The curse spread to the descendents of the feast and the monsters of Alocotla spread into the countryside, diluting their tainted blood with the remaining humans, and alerting the rest of the continents’ Kunda and Olman inhabitants to the foul deeds of the two city-states. The following centuries saw the Touv Kingdom of Kundali declare war on the Olman states in a very successful campaign to eradicate the villainous practice of Blood Magic and snake worship.
By the time the migrating Suel arrived in Hepmonaland, the practice of Blood Magic had all-but-disappeared from civilized society. Only the snake-like descendents of Alocotla Xapatlap still practiced the disgusting art deep in the Jungles, away from the eyes of the other city-states.
Sorcery
History
Few scholars consider Sorcery an Order of Magic, since it lacks any kind of general organization. However, Sorcerers have appeared at all times and in all places in the history of the Flannaess, and so warrant discussion. Sorcerers tend to be fey, demi-human or humanoid, rather than human. When a human does develop Sorcery, he or she is almost always an artist of some sort, and just as often a societal outcast for various reasons. All of the famous Bards who have left their mark in the annals of history were sorcerers.
Sorcerers are all-but-outlawed in those areas where Guilds regulate the use of magic, particularly in those nations of mostly Oeridian heritage, because they are seen as dangerous dabblers who threaten to disrupt and destroy the flow of magic on Oerth. Thus in Greyhawk City, the Great Kingdom, Furyondy, Veluna, Nyrond, the Prelacy of Almor, and especially the Theocracy of the Pale, Sorcerers are actively hunted down and “brought to justice,” whatever that my mean in the respective country (e.g., it might mean the sorcerer is imprisoned or encouraged to submit to magical schooling in Furyondy and/or Greyhawk City, while in the Great Kingdom or the Theocracy of the Pale it would mean death for the Sorcerer). However, in lands with predominantly Suel heritage (save in the barbarian kingdoms), such as Keoland, Lendore Isle, Hardby and Duxchan in the Lordship of the Isles, Sorcerers are treated with a little more respect, since the Suel view their talents as a gift from Wee Jas; which is to say that Sorcerers are always encouraged to submit to magical training (usually in the temples of Wee Jas) in order to develop their gifts and preserve the natural order, rather than being killed out-right. Likewise, those mages who venerate Boccob the Uncaring view Sorcerers with a bit more respect.
One of the most famous Suel Sorcerers of recent history was the late Pelltar of Restenford, magical advisor to the Lord Protector Grellus.
Chaos Magic
History
Chaos, or Wild magic, is an esoteric art that resulted from theoretically-minded mages trying to understand and apply a system of organization to Sorcery. Zagyg Ygerne, the Mad Arch Mage of Castle Greyhawk fame, tops the list as the greatest practitioner of Wild Magic in the history of the Flannaess. Some historians and scholars argue that the methods and theories of Chaos Magic culminated in the founder of Greyhawk City’s apotheosis into demi-godhood, and certainly aided him in the capture and imprisonment of nine demi-gods, including Iuz the Old. Naturally, those mages with aspirations of godhood, going on these arguments, often turn to the study of Wild Magic by the end of the careers, as their creeping mortality begins to show in the degradation of their physical bodies. As often as not, their dabbling in the forces of Chaos prove their undoing just as surely as the ravages of time. Nonetheless, they persist hoping that their manipulation of pure chance can help them beat the odds of death.
I have a rather bizarre theory on Tharizdun, one that I suspect is rather unique. You see... in my campaign world, Tharizdun is the god of Goodness, Light, and Self Sacrifice.
Say what?? Ok, maybe that statement requires a bit of explanation.As a rule (ok, more my rule then an official rule) gods can only modify their own personal realms. Even there, there are limits to how much they can twist the structure of the multiverse. Gods, IMC, are not all-powerful, but merely another notch up the heirarchy of beings in the multiverse. Higher then mortals, but by no means the top of the food chain. So I wanted to resolve the problem of why Tharizdun was so threatening to all the other GH gods, and why (by implication) he had such power over the structure of the multiverse.
After I originally posted my Grand Unified Theory to the Greytalk list, an interesting idea came up in the discussion that subsequently followed. Any pieces ("Shards") of the original primordial sentients (see my "Life, the Multiverse and Everything" webpage in the "Epic Mysteries" section of my website for an explanation of what the heck I'm talking about) would still be more powerful then any god, and a threat to entire pantheons. When one of these ultimate "ancients" (ancient even to the oldest gods) was discovered by the early gods to still exist (a shard of chaos and evil), they had to try and contain it for fear of losing the multiverse that they knew. So the best of them, the most powerful god of Goodness, Light, and Self Sacrifice volunteered to sacrifice himself by containing the Shard within him. Still, the Shard is so powerful that it overwelms Tharizdun's goodness and the result is the being now recognized as Tharizdun in the way we know him today. Still, its power was greater then any god could ever be, yet it was diminished enough so that it could then be imprisoned by the other gods. Even then, Tharizdun still manages to periodically reach out from his prison and effect the planes.
All of this would have happened a very long time ago, before the present Greyhawk gods came into being. Hence, Tharizdun harkens back to a time before the present gods could remember. Is there some distant place in the multiverse that still remembers Good Tharizdun as he was, and the meaning of his sacrifice? Maybe.
Denis
Maldin's Greyhawk
http://melkot.com
Thanks for the story!
Regarding Maldin's post, I recently posted about my conception of the Blinding Light, which could be linked to Tharizdun, the elder god who auto-sacrificied to contain a Shard. See http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=5107892#post5107892. As indicated therein, the Blinding Light might (not) be the entity that some Oeridians name Sol.
Regarding Rumblebelly's highly detailed post on the Orders of Magic in his campaign, I have a lot to say but never enough time. For now, I'll be content with the following:
1. In a recent thread, Ivid asked for fans' thoughts about "the Awakening." See http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=355230.
2. While the ancient Olman people may have originated Blood Magic, I suggest that during their imperial phase, they also developed Cryptomancy. Consider the complex hieroglyphs of the Earthly cultures from which the Olman are derived.
3. Is Wizardry anything besides "battle magic"?
4. Being so far from the ancient grey olven empire, it seems likely that the Touv would have developed a very distinctive practice of magic. Using Rumblebelly's categories, I suggest it features Shamanism, Witchcraft, Invocation, and Natural Magic.
5. IMCs, the olven mysticism into which bladesingers have been initiated and practice fuses the D&D character classes of monk, fighter and bard. I'm working on an alternative character class but finding it hard to balance.
For those interested in reading my "Life, the Multiverse, and Everything" webpage described in my January post above, the direct link is... http://melkot.com/mysteries/multiverse.html
To jump to the Tharizdun "punch line":
What is the Great Dark Secret that Tharizdun knows that all of existence has fought to keep silent for all of eternity, at such incredible cost? If the Spire were ever destroyed, the Multiverse would collapse into its primordial state! (Read the full webpage to find out what I mean by that.) It would take the power equivalent to a Primordial Sentient to accomplish, a power that Tharizdun just might have if he was freed from his prison and free from his "host". A novel theory for DMs to mull over.
Denis, aka "Maldin"
==============================
Maldin's Greyhawk http://melkot.com
Check out the ton of cool Edition-independent stuff on my website:
New Spells, Magic Items, Campaign Notoriety, Artifacts, Kyuss, secrets of the Twin Cataclysms, the Codex of the Infinite Planes, the Dreadwood, the cities of Melkot, Greyhawk and Irongate, a Unified Theory for all of D&D and its multiverse, and much, much more!!
Now whether that's the truth or not is another matter, but it's certainly a plausible world view for your common or garden Tharizdun worshiper.
You could also tie this in with the Skeptics of Urnst - who to my mind must have held the philosophy that while the gods exist and are powerful, who's to say that they're actually gods and not just very powerful beings who claim the mantle of "godhood" to impose their authority on the free thinking peoples of the world. After all if mortals can ascend to godhood, then aren't the gods just powerful mortals? And if they are - what right do they have, aside from their might, to tell people what to do and how to beleive? By duping people into believing in them, aren't they in fact coercing mortals and obscuring the path through which all people can become "gods".
There's a lot of cross overs between a gnostic style Tharizdun cult and the Skeptics (not to say that the Skeptics were all T-worshipers (a true skeptic would just regard T as another false god), but they might have sprung from similar modes of thought.
I can see some of the Western Oerik cultures being based on a non-divine Skeptical philosophy. Perhaps the Celestial Imperium of Sufhang...? The Skeptics of Urnst therefore might have arisen independently, or might have been infleunced by writings carried out of the west by Baklunish traders and into the Flanaess along the Great Western Road (?).
The Skeptics of Urnst therefore might have arisen independently, or might have been infleunced by writings carried out of the west by Baklunish traders and into the Flanaess along the Great Western Road (?).
.. or be representatives on Oerth from the Athar faction (Planescape)
The idea of a god so horrible and destructive that even the "evil" gods locked him away is a profound idea. Something I don't think I've seen here is that one of Big T's aspects is insanity. The god-beyond-god is an interesting concept when you think of maybe Big T wasn't bad like The Wyrm from the WW garou cosmology that he was to keep balance by destroying the excess stuff in the Universe but then went crazy (you ALL must die!). I always thought of Tharzidun as a god that was a contemplator--a mystic (very much like the Gnositcs...) and perhaps He Looked Where He Was Not To Look (e.g. the far realm) and saw reality tear and fall apart and as a god he did the same, tear and fall apart. This would explain instead of Tharzidun being too powerful to destory but rather a cosmic psych ward, people don't kill thier relatives if they have an emotional break, maybe his prison is a big counseling chamber with hopes he'll get back to himself.
.. or be representatives on Oerth from the Athar faction (Planescape)
Or from Keoland, for that matter. Keoland isn't an atheist nation, but it is an apostate nation with no state-sponsored churches. It isn't hard to imagine the Duke of Urnst being influenced by his Suel brothers to the west.
Perhaps the Ur-Flan idealogy has spread among the "educated" even more than they know.
...maybe his prison is a big counseling chamber with hopes he'll get back to himself.
"And how we are feeling today?"
[b]Well, Doc, I don't know. It's these worshippers of mine. It's like they have a different priest or whatever 're-interpreting' my motivations every week.[/b]
"Ah, yes, yes. As a formless elder god, you are lacking the offspring of your own, so instead we have the little cult. And always they are deciding you are somebody different than your self-image is saying, yes."
[i]And I don't WANT to be somebody different, Doc. I just want to unmake the universe and have an eternity of cold and darkness and madness. And what's wrong with that? Other people have hobbies. I can't have a hobby?[/i]
"Well, that is a subject different, you know. The mortals, they are prejudiced against the all-destroyer."
[b]I know, Doc, I know. They LOVE freaking Pelor. Like he INVENTED light. And it's not like he's ever given them anything. Except melanoma. [Unintelligible concept] him AND his celestial host, that's what I say.[/b]
Woesinger, interesting take on the "skeptic" philosophy but how does that relate to the ur-flan philosophy (I believe you wrote an article on for CF).
Perhaps the Ur-Flan idealogy has spread among the "educated" even more than they know.
Um...at the risk of sounding stoopid - which article on the Ur Flan is that?
It was gvdammerung who wrote the piece, check it out at canonfire.
The Return of the Ur-Flan 1 & 2
Part 1 http://www.canonfire.com/cfhtml/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=484
Part 2 http://www.canonfire.com/cfhtml/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=483
PS: Due to the exit screen the links don't connect to the article plz use the search feature.
Sorry Woesinger :embarrass
It was gvdammerung who wrote the piece
Aahh! Yeah - haven't absorbed GV into my mind-flayeresque group mind yet.
Only a matter of time though. :D
p.
Assuming you follow a Gygaxian GH (which I tend to do in my home campaigns), then how do you mesh this new interpretation of Tharizdun with the theorparts? Those items seem to be quite obviously evil to me.
Hey guys my internet access went down for a while so I haven't been able to check up on this thread. Which "new interpretation" are you talking about my original "gnostic" interpretation or some other contributers interpretations? Anyway, since it has been some time that the "gnostic" teachings of Tharizdun have been suppressed. Naturally, some folks came along later and seized on the idea of us all being gods and follow a teaching similar to the Ur-Flan belief that the gods are all false lyers trying to keep the rest of the mortals down and that we can all be like gods if we follow an "ends justifies the means" path to power. Some (e.g. the Ur-Flan) deserve to be like gods, the rest can be sacrificed to gain that power. Needless to say, this is a perversion of the original doctrine which holds that all beings are divine and therefy deserving of dignity and respect. And thus, along with the fact that orthodox religions have villianized Tharizdun-worship and this Ur-Flannish doctrine has justified this villified doctrine to some extent, the view that ALL Tharizdun worshippers are evil. Some of them are, especially the ones that created the Theo-parts.
As I've posted on GreyTalk and Canonfire!, Gygax's cosmology in the novels is substantially different from that represented in the World of Greyhawk boxed set and its derivative works. Instead of a cosmos filled with abundantly diverse gods, Gygax squashed the gods into an elaborate set of dragonchess and focused much greater attention on daemons, demons, and Neutrally-aligned entities. In this "Alternate Oerth," Tharizdun may be the eldest evil, but he's definitely no eldritch horror but instead a very anthropomorphic, somewhat short-sighted megalomaniac--a player with but not quite on par with Lady Balance, Proctor Chronos and that other being of Inertia.
In terms of campaign development, the cosmology of Gygax's novels seems far less viable to me than what Maldin developed because the former is fundamentally teleological: it pushes toward one putatively inevitable end. In contrast Maldin's GUT enables DMs to determine whatever specific details they desire for their particular campaign.
As I'm now incorporating the Elder Elemental God into my campaign, I recently have been imagining the connections and differences between that god and Tharizdun, along with both of their connections to the Cthulu Mythos. Creative comments on this nuance of the thread's subject will be appreciated!