These can be found here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/msrd under the D20 Future section.
As there are new rules on ship to ship combat in space, I was just thinking that perhaps these could be used (with adjustment) for our beloved SJ.
These can be found here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/msrd under the D20 Future section.
No thanks. The fact that they don't take any sort of maneuverability into account might be vaguely justifiable for a science fiction setting, but it doesn't work in Spelljammer. The better option is to modify a set of rules for sailing ships.
No thanks. The fact that they don't take any sort of maneuverability into account might be vaguely justifiable for a science fiction setting, but it doesn't work in Spelljammer. The better option is to modify a set of rules for sailing ships.
A very minor point I think. I've just looked through the rules for starship combat and don't see any reason why they can't be used as a base for spelljammer combat. Obviously you'd need to make a lot of changes, but it would be easy enough to adapt.
It should even be possible to include rules to cover MC and SR as a Spelljammer's maneuverability and speed are very important. The d20 Star War campaign book also has some rules on starship combat that could be looked at, although I haven't read through them yet.
You could just use the regular d20 modern vehicle combat (maybe alter the scale to fit the really big boats) with it's manuverability modifiers, driving rolls, firing arcs and other features perfect for making a supercharged sailship combat in space
It is already used for "real" ships, airplanes and trucks, why not for spelljammers?
Star wars doesn't have a SRD, so we couldn't put much for public use... Probably :embarrass
Unfortunately true. Could always just use it anyway and file off the serial numbers, so to speak. You'd just have to re-write it all (game rules can't be copyrighted).
I've been trying to do that recently, but I'm not very good at it. Is there a list of guidelines on creating vehicle stats from the existing information? We already have the sizes, material types and other things, all we need is to turn them into d20_starwars vehicles
:whatsthisOR just stat the ships and play
I've been trying to do that recently, but I'm not very good at it. Is there a list of guidelines on creating vehicle stats from the existing information? We already have the sizes, material types and other things, all we need is to turn them into d20_starwars vehicles
Personally, if I were to run Spelljammer using 3/3.5e, I'd use Bastion Press' Airships. It's an excellent book, and adding space bits to it would be incredibily simple.
Personally, if I were to run Spelljammer using 3/3.5e, I'd use Bastion Press' Airships. It's an excellent book, and adding space bits to it would be incredibily simple.
I recommend that book as well. Pretty cool, easy-to-use book.
I've worked on a d20 conversion off-&-on for the past few years, but been side-tracked from time to time. Maybe I'll finish it sometime in the far future
a) Looks like i need a full version for the combat rules (or do they just use regular flight rules?) and I live in the third world part of europe which makes things a bit complicated
b) I don't want to bother myself or the players with the third dimension. That's why I stasrted looking at the d20 thing in the first place
Airships looks nice, but simplifying the rules, such as used with the d20 Modern SRD could be the best answer. If you want the complications of using individual weapon crews & such, there is good info in Heroes of Battle on siege weapons. I would eliminate the standard catapult from SJ ships, myself. I cant see using an indierct fired weapon (For those not familiar with the term, that is a weapon with a high arching trajectory) use in space. I see ballistae and cannon as the weapons of choice in that environment.
One thing that I've found in working in my conversion is that siege weapons in general are poor fits for spelljammers, due to the massive amounts of space they take up. Even the smallest catapult takes us a 10' x 10' square, which is fairly big on most spelljammers, and trebuchets are simply out of the question unless you built the entire ship around it.
One thing that I've found in working in my conversion is that siege weapons in general are poor fits for spelljammers, due to the massive amounts of space they take up. Even the smallest catapult takes us a 10' x 10' square, which is fairly big on most spelljammers, and trebuchets are simply out of the question unless you built the entire ship around it.
the light catapults & ballistae in Heroes takes up 5 by 5. Real cannons can take up a large amount of space on real world ships, so that really isnt a problem.
If I wanted realism, I wouldn't want to play sailboats in space :D
You'd be surprised how many people want a "realistic" spelljammer. What always gets me is they want helms to create gravity & air around a ship, yet say absolutely nothing about the other hazards of space travel, namely heat, light, and radiation. AND to top it off, they want cheap helms. Um, yeah. You want a device that incorperates a good 10 fairly high-level spells to fly a ship through space, all for say 10k gp. Maybe its best just not to think too hard on the matter
I prefer the whole "everything has gravity so if you need air, just find and dare to fly close to a plant-filled asteroid" thing, but I have no prejudice against new ideas... For now
The biggest downsides to "more realistic physics" & "helms do everything" is that:
a: one lucky dispel magic means instant death to everyone aboard ship, same with a good assassination of the helmsman & locked door to helmroom.
b: it leaves you with no place to go. You've got Earth-like planets and that's about it. You might be able to use quirky explainations for maybe Bral and a couple of other places, but it doesn't present you with much of a universe beyond "Oerth/Toril/Krynn", and if that's what you're after, why bother with SJ when 2-10 pages of gate/teleport rules suit just fine (the 10-page estimate is if you want feats/PrCs with those spells & items). And you don't need to bother with ship-v-ship rules.
The biggest downsides to "more realistic physics" & "helms do everything" is that:
a: one lucky dispel magic means instant death to everyone aboard ship, same with a good assassination of the helmsman & locked door to helmroom.
b: it leaves you with no place to go. You've got Earth-like planets and that's about it. You might be able to use quirky explainations for maybe Bral and a couple of other places, but it doesn't present you with much of a universe beyond "Oerth/Toril/Krynn", and if that's what you're after, why bother with SJ when 2-10 pages of gate/teleport rules suit just fine (the 10-page estimate is if you want feats/PrCs with those spells & items). And you don't need to bother with ship-v-ship rules.
I was goping to rule that the helms are minor artifacts, like they are referred to in the original setting. Artifacts arent so easily dispelled. That way, you can say that while they can be knocked out of spelljamming speeds, they can still do 20ft per round, not completely supressed. Then you can say they maintain an air envelope, but cant recirculate it, then you can still use the sargassos as they are written. You have minimum speed & air that is going stale if you dont get out quickly.
I was goping to rule that the helms are minor artifacts, like they are referred to in the original setting. Artifacts arent so easily dispelled. That way, you can say that while they can be knocked out of spelljamming speeds, they can still do 20ft per round, not completely supressed. Then you can say they maintain an air envelope, but cant recirculate it, then you can still use the sargassos as they are written. You have minimum speed & air that is going stale if you dont get out quickly.
That makes helms about as tough as the original box, though you're still stuck with problems I outlined above. "Helms do everything" still leaves you with assassins that can take out an entire ship (esp. with something to teleport them to safety) and worst still, really no place to go
I guess you could do star trek, constantly looking for M-class planets but ignoring everything else. Of course, why not just get any one of the Star Trek games out there...You dont have to go with the redone rules, exactly. The other thing I considered was keeping the original gravity rules. You could still let the Helm purify the air then, which isnt all that bad. Getting the helm stolen will be as bad as the old sargassos.
Then you're certainly not in the "helm does everything" camp.
Just past experience has taught me that many people want helms to create gravity, generate air, and otherwise do everything that is required to make outer space habitable to human life. All for under 10k gp 
As for helms generating air, I have to ask: why? A helm really is about movement...why tie generating air to it? If you want something to purify air, why not modify existing magic items or create a new one? That way you don't have an "all your eggs in one basket" problem. Just use the Crown of the Void or maybe a Bell of Air Cleansing or a Rod of Air Freshing (complete with mystic runes that say "Glade" in some alien language :D ). Just a thought ;)
Then you're certainly not in the "helm does everything" camp.
As for helms generating air, I have to ask: why? A helm really is about movement...why tie generating air to it? If you want something to purify air, why not modify existing magic items or create a new one? That way you don't have an "all your eggs in one basket" problem. Just use the Crown of the Void or maybe a Bell of Air Cleansing or a Rod of Air Freshing (complete with mystic runes that say "Glade" in some alien language :D ). Just a thought ;)
I dont mind the helm as a air recirculator. I just dont want it to do EVERYTHING. It doesnt need to align the gravity plane, or whatever. I always liked the idea that you could mount the helm to an ordinary ship & discover that you could fly to the moon. I can see the development of air clensing into the helm as logical. I also think it would fit. I just dont like seeing that if the helm goes down, then everybody floats off the deck & then suffocates. If you want more reality in your D&D, play Dragonstar.
I dont mind the helm as a air recirculator. I just dont want it to do EVERYTHING. It doesnt need to align the gravity plane, or whatever. I always liked the idea that you could mount the helm to an ordinary ship & discover that you could fly to the moon. I can see the development of air clensing into the helm as logical. I also think it would fit. I just dont like seeing that if the helm goes down, then everybody floats off the deck & then suffocates. If you want more reality in your D&D, play Dragonstar.
Well, guess I just see that there are other items that can fulfill the air-freshener role rather than the helm. But to each his own! :DI'm pretty sure the method they used to get the HP on the ships in SotSM was something along the lines of "eye-balling it". I know some people tried to come up with a formula, and came to the conclusion there wasn't one.
Pretty much what I thought. That doesnt satisfy anybody. Doesnt take into account their own material HP rules. They also have a nasty habit of not have a ship drawn to match the size of the description. A few of those ships are describe as being so many feet long & such wide, the they draw them to look like they have nearly 20 decks. A guess at the size of the ship. by approximate number of decks, makes the drawing look like a ship that is at least 3 times as big as the description.
Pretty much what I thought. That doesnt satisfy anybody. Doesnt take into account their own material HP rules. They also have a nasty habit of not have a ship drawn to match the size of the description. A few of those ships are describe as being so many feet long & such wide, the they draw them to look like they have nearly 20 decks. A guess at the size of the ship. by approximate number of decks, makes the drawing look like a ship that is at least 3 times as big as the description.
Very valid complaints, ones that many people had with SotSM. The ship pictures did not match the descriptions (somewhat true to standard SJ as well). The biggest ships (Armada, Dreadnaught, and whatever the human ship was) were the worst. There didn't seem to be any sort of system behind the ship designs, which ironically, there was a set of d20 vehicle rules in that month's Dragon.
Very valid complaints, ones that many people had with SotSM. The ship pictures did not match the descriptions (somewhat true to standard SJ as well). The biggest ships (Armada, Dreadnaught, and whatever the human ship was) were the worst. There didn't seem to be any sort of system behind the ship designs, which ironically, there was a set of d20 vehicle rules in that month's Dragon.
The main rule that regular SJ violated was their own tonnage rules. Most ships were described as being of the wrong deminsions to fit their tonnage. I know that Flit3 had a website, that I loved & hopes he gets it back up soon, that gave accurate tonnages for all the ships. That made the elven armada ove 500 tons, nearly 600.
The main rule that regular SJ violated was their own tonnage rules. Most ships were described as being of the wrong deminsions to fit their tonnage. I know that Flit3 had a website, that I loved & hopes he gets it back up soon, that gave accurate tonnages for all the ships. That made the elven armada ove 500 tons, nearly 600.
True to some extent. Static & I have figured that *most* ships fall into the proper tonnage if you drop 1 ton = 10-yard cube to 1 ton = 10-foot cube. You'll still have abnormalities like the neogi ships, the nautiloid (should be 100 tons from its size alone), the vodoni ships, and some of the ships from Lost Ships. The 10-foot cube per ton rule works very well with most of the ships from the original box and the ships from Legend of the Spelljammer, which covers most of the aestically-pleasing ships :D
True to some extent. Static & I have figured that *most* ships fall into the proper tonnage if you drop 1 ton = 10-yard cube to 1 ton = 10-foot cube. You'll still have abnormalities like the neogi ships, the nautiloid (should be 100 tons from its size alone), the vodoni ships, and some of the ships from Lost Ships. The 10-foot cube per ton rule works very well with most of the ships from the original box and the ships from Legend of the Spelljammer, which covers most of the aestically-pleasing ships :D
That just means that they fall close to the design criteria of Airships.
That just means that they fall close to the design criteria of Airships.
Which is not surprising, given that Jim Butler is in charge of the company that published Airships
Which is not surprising, given that Jim Butler is in charge of the company that published Airships
Well, if you know him, tell him he needs to release it as a PDF. :D
Well, if you know him, tell him he needs to release it as a PDF. :D
Sorry, no dice. Don't know him personally, just his reputation
Nightdruid, I was wondering if you have looked a a product from a company called Darkfuries called Aether & Flux: Sailing the Traverse. If so, what do you think of it?
I've heard of it, but I don't own it. I believe Trampas got it and has a better idea of what's in it. I'll bug him and see what he says.
I've heard of it, but I don't own it. I believe Trampas got it and has a better idea of what's in it. I'll bug him and see what he says.
I've read some good reviews & it appears to be closer to the actual vehicle combat rules.
haven't checked it out...but have heard good things...
I've heard of it, but I don't own it. I believe Trampas got it and has a better idea of what's in it. I'll bug him and see what he says.
Yep, I have it. Seemed so-so to me. A good resource to mine ideas from, but I'm not sure I'd use it 100%.
Anything in particular you guys are wanting to know about it?
Yep, I have it. Seemed so-so to me. A good resource to mine ideas from, but I'm not sure I'd use it 100%.
Echoes this. I picked up my copy shortly after Steven Grover popped over here to the older SJ forums and discussed a little bit about his conception of A&F and how it related to his interests with the SJ setting.
Anything in particular you guys are wanting to know about it?
If Dragonhelm doesn't mind (;)), I'll post his original synopsis of Aether & Flux from the older forums -
I got my copy of Aether and Flux in the mail the other day. I've had only a brief amount of time to look it over due to a hectic lady-friend schedule, but I will give some initial thoughts. For anyone else who bought the book, feel free to chime in.
First, I'll go into some basic concepts. Space in general is referred to as the Traverse. Within the Traverse is the Aether, which comes across to me as "solar wind". Aether seems to be everywhere, although it is thinner in some places and thicker in others. Normally, you can't see the Aether, save for the area surrounding solar systems. This is called the Pale Aether, or the Pale for short. The Aether is what propels a ship.
Two things influence the Aether in order to have it propel ships. The first is arcane magic. Note that divine magic does not power ships. The second is something called the Flux, which is similar to lightning. It's artificially created, and is a non-spellcasting alternative to arcane space travel. I think the alternative is nice, although I find it a bit hokey that the Flux and Arcane energies affect the Aether in the same way.
Ships - There is a limited selection of ships, but the good part is that they have the look of classic Spelljammer vessels. Being in B&W is a minus, although it is good to have some new designs. Nothing that really stands out, though.
Races - Basically, PHB races and a monster race called the Ravin. They're an insectoid race, and are described as being similar to ticks. I was disappointed that they didn't have a bunch of new races.
Classes and Prestige Classes - Zero. Unlike reading through most tomes from 3rd party publishers, this was a HUGE disappointment for me. I was hoping for some setting-specific PrCs, such as stellar mariners, Ravin hunters, etc. It just seems like such a shame to allow such great detail to go unused.
Feats - There are a few, although they're relatively unremarkable.
There is a section I haven't had time to tackle yet about 3 eras of space travel. The concept is one I could see applying to a SJ setting.
Anyway, I am far from done looking at this book, but I thought I would pass along my initial thoughts. Aether and Flux certainly isn't a replacement for Spelljammer by any means. However, one might be able to use it as an additional resource.
I'd be curious to hear whether your opinions on this product have changed Dragonhelm?
If Dragonhelm doesn't mind (;)), I'll post his original synopsis of Aether & Flux from the older forums -
I totally forgot about that. :embarrass Thanks for posting that.
I'd be curious to hear whether your opinions on this product have changed Dragonhelm?
'Fraid not. If I were running a Spelljammer campaign, I'd probably use a few things from it, but it really lacks that Spelljammer feel.
I've found Airships to be the best 3rd party SJ-like product out there (prior to the release of Hackjammer!). I tried converting a galleon over to the Airships model, and it worked out beautifully. The tonnage was practically a straight conversion, IIRC.
Another product out there to check is the Aerial Adventure Guide by Goodman Games. Originally printed as 3 separate booklets, they were compiled into one book. The book is designed for adventures in the sky, but you can adapt some of it for SJ use. There are some new ships in there, and I believe the compiled version has 50 extra pages, much of which has the ships. I enjoyed it well enough, though again, it doesn't quite hit the SJ mark.
I totally forgot about that. :embarrass Thanks for posting that.
Not a problem ;).
I've found Airships to be the best 3rd party SJ-like product out there (prior to the release of Hackjammer!). I tried converting a galleon over to the Airships model, and it worked out beautifully. The tonnage was practically a straight conversion, IIRC.
What do we know about the Hackjammer release?
Another product out there to check is the Aerial Adventure Guide by Goodman Games. Originally printed as 3 separate booklets, they were compiled into one book. The book is designed for adventures in the sky, but you can adapt some of it for SJ use. There are some new ships in there, and I believe the compiled version has 50 extra pages, much of which has the ships. I enjoyed it well enough, though again, it doesn't quite hit the SJ mark.
I'd considered picking this up a while back.
Have you used any of the material presented within yet Dragonhelm, or did you just read through it?
What do we know about the Hackjammer release?
Well, we know that at least one of the three authors is Adam Miller, whom I hear is a total hack...
;)
Well, we know that at least one of the three authors is Adam Miller, whom I hear is a total hack...
;)
Very funny :P. I should have expected that from you ;).
So, is there anything more you can tell us?
Very funny :P. I should have expected that from you ;).
So, is there anything more you can tell us?
Heh, well I try to maintain a sense of humor about it all...otherwise the wait would kill me!
Anyways, I'm still pretty bound in what I can say. Heck, I'm not even sure what the final product looks like (I don't have a copy yet myself!) It should hit the shelves in the next week or two. Will say that there should be tons in there for even non-hackmaster players to use & enjoy, and I'm really proud of the ship building system and the helm system we cooked up
Anyways, I'm still pretty bound in what I can say. Heck, I'm not even sure what the final product looks like (I don't have a copy yet myself!) It should hit the shelves in the next week or two. Will say that there should be tons in there for even non-hackmaster players to use & enjoy, and I'm really proud of the ship building system and the helm system we cooked up
Are there any "setting" details presented (obviously it cannot be based on SJ, but...)? Or is it entirely rules and mechanics for adventures in fantasy space?
Are there any "setting" details presented (obviously it cannot be based on SJ, but...)? Or is it entirely rules and mechanics for adventures in fantasy space?
Oh, definately setting information. Setting covers (IIRC) 4 chapters :D