http://www.nyrond.org/turbine/page/nyrond/imperium.html
The sudden (and quite literally overnight) change in government in a nation like Nyrond does not seem too plausible. It seems like years of Player Character activity was ignored. Especially since the Year Four Onyxgate adventure characters gave Lynwerd Sewarndt's location and warned the king about his wayward brother's motives. The same issue manisfests in a Mowbrenn Interactive.
Rel Mord, the capital city of Nyrond capitulated over night? It has 50,000 inhabitants. So, how does Rel Mord fall in a few hours? And, how does Sewarndt march an army unmolested through a gate without any warning or resistance? Where was the Grey Watch, the Greyseer, the Nyrond Legions, the Knights of the Realm, etc? And most importantly, where were the PCs that have worked for crown and country for years working to prevent this very event?
While it may be cool that Nyrond is in civil war, and Lynwerd is disposed, the whole premise is implausible and frustrating. The Nyrond triad has failed to accommodate the community it is suppose to serve. All of our characters' efforts were for naught, because a few people wanted to do what they wanted, without regard to what the community had accomplished. And, the star-crossed triad-lovers assail anyone with a dissenting opinion at the region's Yahoo Group
A little disappointing.
However, it seems that US regions are busy going around organising coups and killing their kings with soul destroying weapons (Keoland) and in the same time Ahlissa and Splintered Suns are a bastion of stability.
Let's see the major events in Splintered Suns.
1: Naerie Compact: Trade & Military aid agreement against Scarlet Brotherhood between Ahlissa, Onnwal & Sunndi, which took something like two years to accomplish and story advanced in several regional modules, in different regions even.
2. A big attempted sea assault by Brotherhood and their Pomarj allies against two largest cities of Free Onnwal. Brotherhood forced to flee when Ahlissan navy drives them away (Onnwalian PCs could have easily told Ahlissans to get lost which would have meant trouble)
3. Bulluwugs seemed to start their 'once in a decade' onslaught from vast Swamp some time ago. Most likely Sunndians will kick their sorry a...s back to swamp in short order.
4. Lance of Osson was discovered and retrieved from Medegia though we don't know yet which faction (Ahlissa, Almorians or Idee Volunteers) eventually got their hands on it.
See, we keep it low scale :D
S.H, Ahlissa (Naerie) webslave
Almost as a novel I enjoy reading, I just hope the triads publish an annual or whatever document someday so I can know what happened in my comfortable gaming world without combing countless sites.
I can continue to dream...
As for Nyrond, even too an outsider like myself, there are big flaws, besides Greyson comments if true that game results mean nothing to the triads future story arcs (bad enough) but also a philosophical problem I see, namely several triads don't seem to see the value in exploring the adventure value the post war era provides, to slowly rebuild the nations.
Some triads don't seem to have the patience for the story arcs the setting naturally presents instead some regions "want to make something big happen" so without regard too consistency they wildly lurch from one extreme to another.
If their was enough time and foreshadowing perhaps I could buy it, even though Nyrond recovered awfully quick under Lynwerd.
As given Nyrond was recovering nicely, Lynwerd was popular with nobles, military and people so where did Sewarndt get his support for a successful coup?
The mundane can be exciting if handled properly without the need for coups, revolutions and invasions every month.
I personally would like to see the triads rely more on imagination than overblown plot shifts to retain interest.
Once you have seen the Dragon slain for the hundredth time, it isn't so exciting anymore.
Just my opinion.
First, Nyrond recovers from the War at a speed not even the Grey Seer could have predicted.
Then, we are told the Walls of Rel Mord are now finished, highly magical, and turned the city into an unassailable fortress.
King Lynwerd almost marries a succubus.
And finally, this. The return of the evil younger brother which takes everyone by surprise, even the players whose characters have warned the king in every way possible to prepare for it. Not only that, but said evil brother takes the city with the magic walls like they were made of paper!
Right. That does it, no more meta-region four scenarii till their triad has gone through insanity treatment. Thank god, my own Splintered Suns region hasn't gone overboard yet.
That said, here's how I could see it happen:
The whole thing might be explained as manipulations by Sewarndt from the beginning. He might have made pacts with fiends. The first part of the pact was to get Nyrond back on its feet. Thus the "almost magical" recovery of that country. King Lynwerd might have suspected something, but turned a blind eye because his people needed the relief and he wasn't about to question where it was coming from.
Next, the magic walls might have played into it as well. Sewarndt would be the chief architech of said walls, using fiendish magic that made them protective, but at the same time, could unleash magic that could bring the city to its knees instantly (massive charm person, for example).
Finally, the fiends might have decided its "harvest time". Thus they give Sewarndt an army that quickly conquers the capital city and other strategic locations. The king goes missing and the fiends are now in charge.
Of course, from the sound of it, I don't think this is how the adventures played out, and there certainly should have been clues to such an event taking place. But all this is just my opinion
I avoid Living Greyhawk like the plague, and will continue to do so for the foeseeable future.
My Greyhawk campaign is thriving, riviting, and most of all realistic in sticking with the gritty theme of Oerth.
The miraculous ascendence of Nyrond following the Flight of the Fiends always bothered me, and this annoys me more. I'll avoid it and treat it with the disdain it deserves.
Move along, its a waste people.
In Onnwal one of the big events was caused by only 1 town falling to the Scarlet Brotherhood, not the entire country. The PCs and leaders unfortunately had been duped into expecting the attack on another town (Scarlet Brotherhood for you). And each battle is fought a piece of land at a time, e.g. the PCs retake Longbridge, they then retake Location B, Location C, they lose at Location D, Location E is overrun by the Brotherhood. All this takes a lot of play time, rather than being an overnight thing. We've been fighting the war in Onnwal for 5 years now and its only just beginning to tip in the player's favour.
On the other hand it is very difficult to make everyone happy with our plots. For instance I know PSmedger doesn't like the Naerie Compact plotline - believing Sunndi would never sell out Naerie to the Ahlissans, or that Ahlissa would attempt to get in on a union with the former Iron League states. Maybe its me, but I think Onnwal is a little underwhelmed by the support it has received from the Iron League, Sunndi's ruler is not likely to let a little sheet of paper stand in his way of aiding Idee, and Ahlissa is desperate to appear like the New Labour (British political thing) of the Aerdy. That and it conveniently brings the major players in our metaregion together in a more cohesive manner.
On the one hand you get a region like Geoff, occupied by giants, or Onnwal, occupied by the Scarlet Sign, and that region can have pretty oerth-shattering military events. These regions are at war, in fact the slogan on the Onnwal website is
"For the rest of the Flanaess, the Greyhawk Wars have been consigned to the pages of history. In the Free State of Onnwal, they never ended".
Now, if you take a region like Dyvers, Veluna or Verbobonc and so forth. They are in relatively stable positions. Veluna and Verbobonc are incredibly strong nations, both militarily and financial, they've not been particularly ruined by the GH Wars, and yet since 591 CY dawned they've all suddenly had all these major conflicts with local threats that don't seem to have impacted the adjoining regions.
As to Nyrond, it was virtually in ruins as described in the Marklands, and that was only caused by stemming the tide in Almor and fighting against the Fists! The fall of Rel Mord and the adjoining towns to Sewardnt and the resultant fighting is going to send Nyrond into a dark age from which it will never recover. The ensuing civil war is a war that Nyrond frankly cannot afford.
I agree post-Ashes Nyrond and LG Nyrond didn't really get the dark atmosphere of the Marklands sourcebook. Too much focus was placed on Lynwerd's gambit into Almor - a worthless tactical blunder IMHO, given he should have spent those resources consolidating his existing lands.
Even worse in 591 CY LG Nyrond the replacement Baroness of Woodwych decided to create a new town, Adrean's Landing, named after her son. Not exactly the wisest action for a kingdom that was on the brink of starving! I'd rather have the penny-pinching old Baron back myself...
Also - maybe its me, but gating a whole load of fiends into Rel Mord defies logic. Why on Oerth didn't one of the Ivids do this previously if it appears so easy? I don't imagine an outlawed mage like Sewardnt (who from the Marklands really wasn't that powerful) should have that many more resources at his disposal than, say, the Overkings of the Aerdy, who -like- only ruled a large portion of the Flanaess from a city choc-a-bloc with fiend summoning artifacts.
As Erik Mona has once said, a lot of what is produced for LG is not professional quality. We've had triads who play loose with canon, decide to outlaw canon NPCs that were loyal to the state simply because they don't like them or hadn't heard of them, and summon armies of giants, undead and trolls from the ether to create a battle situation. It's the price of the game I guess, it's not possible to find 150 Carl Sargents to rule over 50 regions!
Stu
One of the problems of LG is that every region is trying to do a one-up on battle interactives and plots. I personally think we in Europe are a lot more patient with our plots, and we tend to limit them in scale as well as having lots better harbinging and maguffins.
Amen to that. As a guy who plays in Onnwal I think the region is absolutely superb. The real fun begins if 11th Sunndian army can turn the tides of war and re-conquer scant in couple of years What happens after the war if Onnwal & Sunndi revoke the Naerie Compact?
for other things, I'm currently writing our regional gazetteer and once the Triad greenlights it, i'm going to ask 'canon-police' (canonfire people most likely) to check over it and point any canon mistakes since they always complain LG people take liberties with Canon.
Don't worry, there are no 'evil-villains-castle-in-every-hill' content in this gazetteer.
S.H, Ahlissa (Naerie) webslave
p.s: Death to Idee volunteers! Long live Xavener (and I really mean it).
As the Triad for Keoland who got yelled at by everyone and his brother in the region to have something actually happen in the plot for 2 years, then listened to even more demands to know what my super-secret plans had been for another 2 years until the people who took over for me finally released the modules to reveal those secrets, I take extreme exception to such a comment.
And in support of the people who plotted the death of the King, I would note that they gave everyone fair warning, then let them blithely carry out all the actions needed to ensure the death of the King through their own choices and actions. While I'm sure the players of the region didn't want the King to die like that, they certainly did a great job of ensuring the prophecy of his death was well and truly fulfilled.
Such general statements do an extreme disservice both to the people who have worked to set the standards that others want to imitate. Worse, they encourage those who hate the campaign to engage in even more gratuitous insults and dismissals of a campaign they will never have the talent to contribute to.
I think some people might want to rethink their comments about plot development in the US, particularly in regards to Keoland.
I do, I just gave an example of major event and that was Keoland since I don't know too much about US regions. You explained the death of Skotti in-depth in other post and it sounded well thought out and PCs made signifigant effort on it.
However, I find it much plausible that a king is assassinated by a soul destroying weapon than an army of creatures marching through Nyrond and conquering the capital in a pitched battle (as was said in announcement on Nyrond page) in less than a day
If I offended Keolanders, it was not my intention and I apologise.
I think the 'Empire of Nyrond' can be quite a groovy concept, however I hope the triad can pull it off well and reveal why things actually happened this way.
S.H, Ahlissa (Naerie) webslave, who thinks a Dullstrand regional about capturing a wild horse is one of the best modules he has ever played :D
First, I'll record my objection to irresponsible generalizations, like Simpi's "I quess [sic] US players have no patience and they want Oerth shattering stuff every week[.]" He already apologized, which I don't find necessary. I'm not a "Keolander" but instead want to point out that even with a smiley face afterwards, it's just not responsible to post things like that: it begs for people to flame in reaction.
Second and related to the former point, I encourage folks not to think of "Canonfire people" as "canon-police." While some CF editors may dislike when LG Triads bend GH past what we think are its breaking points, we aren't trying to police canon.
To the contrary, the meaning of Canonfire!'s name refers to taking "canon" GH sources and lighting them up in a conflagration of creativity. See "What Does Canonfire! Mean?" in the Canonfire FAQ, at http://www.canonfire.com/htmlnew/modules.php?name=FAQ&myfaq=yes&id_cat=1&categories=Canonfire%21%3Cp%3E#13.
If people want to make their Alternate Oerths consistent with canon sources, then CF editors are some of the people who are willing to help with that. IMO, what's important is for DMs to know how their campaigns diverge from canon and to have chosen those different courses consciously for reasons that serve the enjoyment of their gaming group.
With the prefatory comments over, I now respond to the Nyrond Triad's recently announced change. Keeping in my mind my first point and Samwise's caution not to speak in useless generalizations, Sewardnt's coup doesn't make sense to me.
Others have noted his relative lack of magical power and the impracticality of marching armies across a countryside of nobles who are putatively loyal to him. Greyson produced a good set of critiques from the position of one who has played in the region. Nightdruid suggested a few ways one might be able to make sense of it, and those "magic walls" do sound suspicious but they only account for Rel Mord.
Like skerrigan, Simpi and others, I prefer what I've seen of the Onnwal Triad's campaign. As an outsider, its website has presented a compelling campaign that appears dynamic in ways that sustain my suspension of disbelief.
At the end of the webpage, the Nyrond Triad indicates that the storyline will unfold in this year's modules. Hopefully an interesting plotline will emerge, but Greyson's frustration should be addressed by the Nyrond Triad, especially if it's widespread.
Finally, I encourage posters to share their views about how the Kingdom of Nyrond should have developed. In other words, how has Nyrond fared in your Alternate Oerth?
Finally, I encourage posters to share their views about how the Kingdom of Nyrond should have developed. In other words, how has Nyrond fared in your Alternate Oerth?
I don't have an active campaign, Nyrond IMHO should have been a nation on the verge of collapse.
Starvation
Peasant Uprising
Military Revolts over back pay and poor equipment
Pressure from Urnst States (debt)
Increased central repression
Factional Tension over Almor Annexation
Trade disputes
Measures to retain the skilled workforce
Religious Tension over the declining fortunes of the Kingdom
Prostylizing from the Pale
Demi-human bigotry increase over lack of trade from elves and gnomes
Banditry and pirate activity increase
Who needs a coup?
How a Coup could work:
Over a long period of time with Sewarndt taking advantage of the events above.
Sewarndt hides his motives behind a patrotic face "I tried the first coup to save Nyrond from following the same old policies that ruined the Kingdom"
Fled after failed coup, started a small resistance movement based on the "Lesser Nyrond" policy found in the Marklands and as the country slowly declines he begins to be seen as a "Robin Hood" figure. Uses his Charisma and certain PR moves (supplies to the poor, save army units from so-called "bandit ambushes" really disguised henchmen etc.) to maintain the image of the movement. Once popular support builds, Sewarndt slowly begins to make contact with the deposed former nobles, disaffected prieshoods and sympathic military units to make the coup possible.
The PC's of this scenario are in the unique position of being seen as muscle for a repressive gov't tracking a popular rebel leader even though they know the King is a fine leader and the "savior or Nyrond", Prince Sewarndt is really a heartless evil tyrant just manipulating the population for his benefit.
Does this make any sense?
Btw Simpi love the restrained tact Onnwall and the Splintered Suns region is taking especially with the Naerie Compact, sometimes desperate people are forced too bargain and the way Ahlissa took advantage of the situation for their own ends and twisted the affair to polish its image diplomatically was absolutely brilliant since it is exactly what an LE society would do. ;)
King Lynwerd has disappeared. Whether dead or alive is still a matter of rumor and conjecture. Queen Xenia and the Grey Seer are also nowhere to be found.
Let's hope they are equally elusive and crafty at a counter-coup as Sewarndt was. ;)
Worse, they encourage those who hate the campaign to engage in even more gratuitous insults and dismissals of a campaign they will never have the talent to contribute to.
Or the interest in contributing to.
Point taken though. Goings on in Nyrond don't honestly interest me that much, but this kind of thing does invoke a lot of LG bashing.
I'll also second Sam's point about not broad stroking the entire campaign management based on the actions of one or two triads. Some do give the impression, at least, of plotting their own course despite player input, but others, Keoland for example, do take suggestions into account.
And then have to deal with folks not being happy with what they asked for...
they encourage those who hate the campaign to engage in even more gratuitous insults and dismissals of a campaign they will never have the talent to contribute to
whether or not a person likes or dislikes LG, and whether or not they have talent are mutualy exclusive... they have not a single thing to do with each other.
The Nyrond issue seems somewhat fishy to me, but honestly I could care less... I don't particpate in LG events, and even if I did I am not in the nyrond region (note that this doesn't mean that I dislike LG... Living Greyhawk is something that I feel a great amount of apathy for).
I have seen LG things that I liked, and those that I disliked, I admit that I freely adapt stuff from various living greyhawk sites to my game if it suits my purpose, and ignore other stuff which I find lacking.
Erik Mona said a few weeks back something along the lines of the further the LG triads depart from the plausible the less likly that thier changes will be recognised if and when a new official treatment of greyhawk is ever published. I agree with this sentiment.
While I agree with Samwise sentiment that broad generlizations are not all that accurate, it seems to me that he is being a little overly sensitive on the issue... anybody that is going to write (or create) for a large audiance needs to realize that not everybody is going to be happy with what they do, and invariably people are GOING to tell you about it if they are unhappy. If you can't handle it, DO NOT write or create for public consumption, you will just lead yourself to grief (and possibly an ulcer).
I agree with Samwise sentiment that broad generlizations are not all that accurate, it seems to me that he is being a little overly sensitive on the issue... anybody that is going to write (or create) for a large audiance needs to realize that not everybody is going to be happy with what they do, and invariably people are GOING to tell you about it if they are unhappy. If you can't handle it, DO NOT write or create for public consumption, you will just lead yourself to grief (and possibly an ulcer).
I agree with Cwslyclgh entirely. I am likewise an apathetic but not hostile LGer. When you consider the brickbats thrown at the likes of Sargent, Moore et al over the years for bringing their view of Greyhawk to the table it is hardly suprising that similar comments are passed to the recent contributors.
One of the potential strains that LG by its nature develops is the appearance in some areas to create campaign themes that feel a little too compact. I do not judge individual triads content, not being in any position to comment objectively, but I believe that had the ills that have befallen Greyhawk constantly, in so many quarters, so unremittingly actually happened, then the whole continent would have spiraled into decay and devastation. How could trade and civil society, even within "settled" regions withstand so much without regressing to a Dark Age?
The pressure seems to come where many triads are creating major events which would fit well over perhaps a 200 year span, but it is condensed into so short a period by necessity. As with Cwslyclgh I have mined some useful nuggets for campaigning from many triad arcs, but would equally consider much off-limits in my Greyhawk
But, with all the changes made, I wonder, will this still be Greyhawk?
I am glad that the Triads don't come up with resurrecting dead gods or telling us stories about the planet being moved from one dimension to another, and, although I am conscient that this Nyrond thing is just kind of an excerpt from a campaign journal, I am curious what will be next...
Strahd von Zarovich reveals as the new Drow overking of Istivin?
A couple of adventurers befriends an undead army in a LotR - like manner and kills the Old One?
*I also wanted to post here about Rary declaring himself Vecna reborn and invoking another Rain of Colorless fire, but I am afraid that this could end up being more than a silly joke of mine...*
King Lynwerd almost marries a succubus.
I found this story very heart - warming. A love without a chance... A bitter, old man and a young innocent girl... That's the stuff the big movies are made with!
[...]
As Erik Mona has once said, a lot of what is produced for LG is not professional quality.
[...]
Speaking of Bissel Evard and his army is occupying a part of that nation. It seems turmoil is everywhere.
I've played a lot of Geoff LG modules and think the plotline is great. I haven't played a large number of Bissel or Veluna modules. So I can't really comment on whether the activities of Herion and Evard make sense for the regions.
Mike
As for Rary, AFAIK he's in very good hands at the moment. ;)
Stu
I found this story very heart - warming. A love without a chance... A bitter, old man and a young innocent girl... That's the stuff the big movies are made with!
Uh? Lynwerd is anything but old. Methink you're thinking of ol' Archbold, his father. And I certainly consider Lynwerd had a right to be bitter. He was supposed to be heir to the mightiest nation of Good in the Eastern Flanaess and instead was forced to fight his brother to save their father, and then became king of a nation reduced to starving peasants and bickering nobles. Not to mention his bride was in a coma.
Some shining future indeed!
whether or not a person likes or dislikes LG, and whether or not they have talent are mutualy exclusive... they have not a single thing to do with each other.
It does when those slamming LG make it an issue.
Declaring that the writing for LG is not of professional quality, either specifically or in general calls for some show of qualification to make that judgement, beyond simply an appeal to another's judgement.
It becomes even more of an issue when those making comments of that nature go further and decry the ability of LG contributors to even understand what makes for a good game.
While I agree with Samwise sentiment that broad generlizations are not all that accurate, it seems to me that he is being a little overly sensitive on the issue... anybody that is going to write (or create) for a large audiance needs to realize that not everybody is going to be happy with what they do, and invariably people are GOING to tell you about it if they are unhappy. If you can't handle it, DO NOT write or create for public consumption, you will just lead yourself to grief (and possibly an ulcer).
I can deal with people not linking what I write. I dealt with it for 2 years, and I've dealt with the fallout for more.
What I won't tolerate without a response are attacks from people who haven't even bothered reading what I have written, or experienced the campaign plots I have set in motion telling said material is of garbage quality, or telling me that I have no clue what makes for a good campaign.
Now perhaps some people can't see the difference between those. I do distinguish between them. If that makes me overly sensitive, so be it. That sort of "condemnation" of the pride I take in my work I can live with.
Oh, and as a final note.
If you are simply interested in LG for whatever reason, I can accept that. I think you are missing out on a lot of fun (at least in the Keoland region), but I can accept it. Some people are lucky enough to have a thriving gaming group and they don't need the RPGA campaigns. More power to you, I wish I my home campaign were up and running again too.
And as you aren't going around trying to forge some sort of rep by attacking the efforts of those who are involved in the campaign, especially if you are using ideas and concepts from the LG campaign and are willing to acknowledge it, then you have my respect as well.
Again, I think there is a very big difference between not playing because you have other options and not playing because you think it is "kewl" to attack the LG campaign instead.
Completely ridiculious, and another step in the direction of the Living Campaign's downfall.
hmmm, Maybe we will get Greyhawk lisenced out someday.
it's not possible to find 150 Carl Sargents to rule over 50 regions
Right now we can't even find 1, let alone the one.
What I won't tolerate without a response are attacks from people who haven't even bothered reading what I have written, or experienced the campaign plots I have set in motion telling said material is of garbage quality, or telling me that I have no clue what makes for a good campaign.
Unfortunately negative buzz can kill project before its ever seen in its finished form or seen to its completion in the case of an extended story arc. This happens alot in the movie and TV industry and I can see this deal with LG is similar. On the other side of a coin, when a certain author/s has alot of credit, people will take their work on faith before its ever seen as well.
One by one, the Pale has reacted to and defeated major threats...not always cleanly, not always in the way that the players would have liked, but always credible and with enough PC influence on outcomes to feel like our heroes made a difference. It is a tough balancing act, to keep the Pale flavor while
allowing people to play a variety of characters.
Nyrond's "miraculous recovery" is largely because if you place 50ish heroes in a country the size of Nyrond, you're gonna run out of bandits and ankhegs in a few years and their capabilities will do a lot to restore trade and infrastructure. LG assumes fewer heroes than the 14,000 players (each of whom have several characters) campaignwide of course, as each adventure is done multiple times...but still, you can kind of assume that the heroes you muster for an interactive are somewhat representative of the region and its near neighbors. Heroes are capable people. They influence events and outcomes.
Against their influence is the rather large resources the bad guys can muster. Or the good guys in the case of the Pale or anywhere else which has chosen Freedom From instead of Freedom To. Sometimes all the heroes can do is change things from "Really awful" to "Slightly less awful". Some areas are just overwhelemed (Geoff, Bandit Kingdom), some have made slow progress in sensible directions (Splintered Suns metaretion, Pale), some are consumed with internal issues since they have no big external threats (Urnsts, Verbebonk, Veluna perhaps, etc)
Nyrond players have a right to be upset, since this event seems to devalue the hard work done over many adventures/interactives. However...we don't know what really happened yet....either why Nyrond recovered so well or why it fell so easily. Whatever the cause, I don't think many Heroes will be happy with the change in leadership, so the "Emperor" is going to sit uneasy on his throne. Heroes are awfully effective insurgants and terrorists.
I will give Nyrond the benefit of the doubt until we see just how this coup was accomplished. My Pale characters will be watching events in Nyrond with interest and maybe even travel there to meddle.
Do the triads not have an RPGA representative that has to approve of any concepts the various triads come up with? (serious question)
Completely ridiculious, and another step in the direction of the Living Campaign's downfall.
Triads are responsible for majority of the editing and can choose not to accept finished product from the author or demand changes if it does not fulfill their standard of quality.
As an example, my intro module for Bone March/County of Knurl required changes because it's description of a ritual torture that a Flan tribe put a captured hobgoblin through before killing it.
Each module then goes to meta-regional coordinator who can send them back to Triads if he feels more editing or changes are required before he can sanction the module for play.
Core scenarios are different matter and i'm not exactly sure if editing them all is a task of Creighton Broadhurst (previous Splintered Suns meta-region coordinator) or do other people help him in it.
Downfall of the campaing: Well, RPGA page currently mentions that LG will at least be around until 2006 and I don't see why it would not go to 2007 and beyond. Living Greyhawk will not fall due to actions of a single triad.
S.H, Ahlissa (Naerie) webslave
Veluna too had Canon Hazon killed off by an ex Canon Heiron who was a lich and had a large army of orcs, undead and devils. The army is presently occupying a large part of the country. And as mentioned in another post, the rise of the lich Herion hasn't impacted Furyondy, Verbobonc or Bissel.
Unlike Nyrond, the problems in Veluna have been building for several years. The exposition of a corrupt canon has been developing since year 1. It's only in the last year that the bad guys made their move and the facts became known.
The rise of the Lich Herion has impacted other regions: Veluna has withdrawn troops from Highfolk and Bissel (that I'm aware of) over the past two years as problems at home developed. Whether the respective triads did anything with this information I can't say.
The old Veluna triad was fiercely opposed to a cross-border con, because they didn't want to select one of 5 neighboring regions. This seems to have led to a lack of interaction with other regions. The fact that only Verbobonc belongs to the same meta-region adds to the coordination problem. The new triad is trying to develop more interaction with other regions, but at this point, many plot arcs are in place and there isn't much room for new ones.
Ed
Just my thoughts on the matter
I think the problem here is not that the development of Nyrond being overthrown is a bad thing from a story-standpoint, its that the lead-up to it has been misleading and haphazard... but from what I'm hearing, it sounds like the adventures leading up to the change-over gave the impression that the coup would fail. The PCs warned the king, that sort of thing. But by the story, the King was taken by surprise and the actions of the PCs were to naught. I think that's what's got people riled up. Basically, the adventures went one way, the story went in the exact opposite direction.
That is the big issue, Nightdruid. Players have literally run all over Nyrond stamping out the Sewarndt fires. We even had to put up with the ridiculous monkey episode at the Royal Wedding Interactive.
The triads should work to cater to the needs, accomplishments and goals of player character activity. They should serve to advance the plots as affected by the region's members - who sacrifice a lot of time to support the region.
They should not ignore years of PC work because they want to beat the other regions in some silly idea of competition. The triad should not disregard the actions and results of hundreds of table play and adventure lines to promote some implausible and outrageous theme.
It's too much, too fast, and too ill-conceived. I wonder, have these triad members (and their loyal, regurgitating sicophants) read any Greyhawk related material lately?
The question then becomes WHY are they creating plotlines as they have. On the surface, these plotlines seem a triffle extreme as compared with Greyhawk's pace of canon. And that I believe may be part of it.
IMO, what we are seeing, in some degree, is a reaction, whether by died in the wool Greyhawkers or Sunshine Greyhawkers, to the stolid pace of canon development in Greyhawk.
I am personally quite content with Erik Mona's stewardship of the Greyhawk ship of state. However, the Triads are, to a degree, not so happy and are voting with their feet. There are enacting radical change because they find no direction for change that will suit their regional needs in established or developing canon - to include all the fine work in the Dungeon.
The Triads are not crazy. They are simply not finding canon development so they are making it up as best they can. Whether this is a criticism of the Triads or of the works being published in Dungeon, the only true outlet for canon development at the moment, is a matter of perspective. I take no side. I simply note what I believe to be part of what is at work here.
The Triads are not crazy and LG is not looney-tunes. They need some canon development that will serve their regional needs and in the absence of any they will do what any good DM would do - make it up. As not all of them are long time Greyhawkers, some of what they create will not fit with classic Greyhawk. How to fix that? Get involved or see canon developed at a more rapid pace.
And lest anyone kid themselves, the work of the LG will have an impact on the next iteration of GH. It is simply too big to ignore and there are those at Wotc who will relish "sticking it to Greyhawk" by insisting that the LG developments be by some measure acknowledged or accomodated.
NS
The "problem" dear Screedo, is that the LG campaign is not one campaign, but over 20 thriving, active, ongoing campaigns. It thus requires over 20 thriving, active, ongoing plots, and over 20 thriving, active, ongoing advancements of the status of the various regions in which it takes place. Further, said thriving, active, ongoing campaigns have an established pace of advancement equal to that of the real world time that has elapsed since the campaign began. It has been four years in Greyhawk since the campaign has begun. Four years of changes have occurred.
Further, the advancement of characters in that thriving, active, ongoing campaign is so fast that characters would have leveled out if it hadn't been been slowed down several times already, and indeed people are still leveling out of the campaign before actually doing much of anything beyond caravan duty. As I've explained before, spending four years escorting random NPCs about may interest some people, but it doesn't interest the players in this campaign. Nor does managing such a campaign interest the people doing so.
So comparatively speaking, the events in the LG campaign over the past four years are not all that much more dramatic than the events in twenty other campaigns over four years of game time (not play time), and should be looked at in that way.
Also, the concept that the LG campaign needs an external source of ongoing campaign development to drive it is not an established fact. While it might well help things if there was more coordination, and some direction, from above in regards to the development of the plots within the various regions, such an approach is not guaranteed to produce the same degree of diversity and creativeness that the campaign has managed to date, nor is it guaranteed to attract the same quality of creative people that the campaign has attracted to date. Which despite all naysaying is quite considerable. While looking for 150 Sargents, and complaining about the 50 anti-Sargents (or whoever), people are overlooking or dismissing the 50 or more solid contributors, not to mention the dozen or so high quality, potential star-level people the campaign has produced.
So no, they don't need someone else to hold their hand and lead them by the nose. Some more quality controls, particularly among editors, is always useful. And some more direct feedback on plot ideas could be good. But an attempt to create yet another level of creative bureaucracy in the campaign is unlikely to do much good just because it exists. You still need to find someone to develop enough canon to advance 20 campaigns at one time, on an ongoing basis, year after year. And even while I might think I'm good enough to handle that for one meta-region, I don't delude myself that I could come close to doing it for the whole campaign without at least a year to prepare. (And a full time salary of course. :D )
Do the triads not have an RPGA representative that has to approve of any concepts the various triads come up with? (serious question)
Great question, Abysslin. And it illustrates how systemic the problem is with Living Greyhawk. Regional plots are subject to Circle review. Nyrond's Circle representative is cuplable in this blunder as is the Circle as a whole by extension.
Now, I think it is forgivable if a person responsible for managing a Living Greyhawk region lacks knowledge or doesn't know the seting in exact detail. I'm one of these ignorant participants.
What I cannot abide, is regional leadership being completely oblivious to the efforts of its members. If I wanted to be ignored, if I wanted bad customer service, if I wanted circumstances shoved down my throat, I'd go to my local bank branch. What the Nyrond triad and its bevy of sycophants have done with this stiff rail-roading job is unpardonable. I think a responsible Circle should have curtailed the ambitions of Nyrond's Three Amigos and their Koolaid drinkers.
The coup has happened, Samwise (Nyrond Triad??) has suggested he is open to plot ideas so why don't the motivated posters out there take him up on his offer :D
Post your ideas on how to achieve a plausible entertaining plot storyline for Nyrond post coup.
Someone or a cooperative effort must be able to right the Nyrond ship of state.
Uh? Lynwerd is anything but old. Methink you're thinking of ol' Archbold, his father. [...]
Errrh...
forgive me, my friend... :D The last time Ivid the Bowman saw the world outside the Griff Mountains (aka Nyrond;) ) was back in 1999... Even before the LGG came out... whoops... Do the triads not have an RPGA representative that has to approve of any concepts the various triads come up with? (serious question)
And if, do these people know about Greyhawk or are they just WotC/RPGA employees that just sit there and nod to everything the triads have designed? ;)
Post your ideas on how to achieve a plausible entertaining plot storyline for Nyrond post coup.
Someone or a cooperative effort must be able to right the Nyrond ship of state.
To start, some action to make all this blitzkrieg revolution *unhappened* would indeed be nice...
Nyrond's "miraculous recovery" is largely because if you place 50ish heroes in a country the size of Nyrond, you're gonna run out of bandits and ankhegs in a few years and their capabilities will do a lot to restore trade and infrastructure.
Actually, my strong suspicion is that the "miraculous recovery" was due largely to two factors:
1) As the original Triad left, the replacements misinterpreted the original extent of the "Adventurer's Tax", and applied it to a lot more things than was originally intended.
2) Players didn't want their characters to have to pay taxes, and complained.
Players have literally run all over Nyrond stamping out the Sewarndt fires.
Isn't that an indication that there was quite a bit of foreshadowing?
I am so disappointed, I literally feel sick to my stomach.
I had a reaction like this once in Living City. In all honesty, I would strongly suggest that you step back for a bit and reevaluate just how important a game is. IMO, It's just not worth getting so emotionally involved in that it causes physical distress.
In all honesty, I would strongly suggest that you step back for a bit and reevaluate just how important a game is. IMO, It's just not worth getting so emotionally involved in that it causes physical distress.
.....but could be if the theme ever became so established that it became part of future Greyhawk lore should the setting ever be revived commercially ....... actually given the limited chance of that happening in the near future you're probably right.
Honestly I really don't know the strength of this story arc, but from what I hear it doesn't sit comfortably with me. Having seen some departures that the setting made in the past which have become part of its future, it can be an emotive subject.
Maybe it'll go down as some kind of 'mass illusionary bad dream', perhaps a burp from the plane of nightmares.
Hey, it is more plausable than what happened!
Anyway, I'm crossing my fingers about this one, as including this event in canon would REALLY take a vorpal axe to my opinion of anyone who deems to include it.
The fact that the newest maps contained such canonically suspect areas like Cauldron and Sasserine and completely ignored LG locations says quite a bit. Lets not forget that Erik was the steward for LG in the beginning.
.. and completely ignored LG locations ..
Not 'completely'. On the first map alone, I have spotted locations tied to some meta-modules of the RPGA.
Erik himself has said the response from the Triads was spotty at best and that LG specific locations for the most part weren't included.
It seems that there could be quite a bit of logical basis for a coup by Sewarndt. The kingdom was in absolute shambles when Lynwerd became king. His first order of business was to continue the warfare in Almor, when knights and soldiers were expecting to go home after the signing of the Treaty of Greyhawk. Lynwerd seemed to do little to progress the kingdom at least from 585-591 CY. Disbanding much of the royal court in 590 must have created some powerful and well connected enemies (presumably the talking bird among them). The act of restructuring the provinces in 591 must have created an innumerable number of enemies for Lynwerd. Family lands were taken from various lords. As the Royal Treasury increased due to this reorganization, it is implied that much looting and pillaging of those lands occurred. There must have been many willing to ally with Sewarndt. Further, it seems that the living greyhawk folks made another restructuring of the kingdome a year later, creating more uproar against Lynwerd - especially the near untenable action of making Almor the only Grand Duchy in all Nyrond.
Further, I get the feeling that Lynwerd is the type of king who personally leads his army in battle. He must have spent much of his rule in the saddle battling vile beasts from Almor to the Phostwood. That would not leave much time for him to form the all important relationships needed at court. Sewarndt may have spent more time in Rel Mord than his brother, secretly gathering allies.
As the time is advanced to 595, Sewarndt has had 10 years to gather resources. He has agents placed in strategic locations to strike when the time is right, especially the Relmor ports. 1 Fireseek was the perfect time to strike. Lynwerd is out on another crusade deep within the Flinty Hills. As the nobles are bankrupt, a large proportion of his fellow crusaders are personal house troops. This leaves little to defend the nation's capital. The Grey Seer is on another plane of existence seeking knowledge that the mortal realm cannot comprehend, and so, is unavailable to Lynwerd. By the time Lynwerd even hears word of what is happening, half the nation is in warfare. However, it is winter, and his crusading army is paralyzed from acting against Sewarndt due to the heavy snows. Perhaps Sewarndt can take the nation on his second coup attempt. Or maybe, just maybe, the PCs will be able to thwart this upsurper to the throne.
I rather like this concept - reminds me of King Richard and his brother John. However, a couple things are troubling. First, why would Sewarndt take the title of Emperor? This reminder of the Great Kingdom would not curry any favors among nobles who are undecided upon which side to join. Second, it seems the navies would side with the rightful king. If my Marklands knowledge holds true, the sailors were the taken care of better than any other branch of the military. Finally, the great population boom the living greyhawk folks gave between 591 and 595 must mean that nearly everyone in the kingdom is at home having kids and taking care of the 30% of the population that must be 4 years and younger. There won't be anyone available for war - they have too many young kids to care for.
In this case, that included joining the Nyrond-IC Yahoo group (since I live in the region.) Lately, there have been some interesting posts labeled "Approved Plotline Post". According to the moderator, these posts are approved (and in some cases, written by) Triad members, and serve to illuminate recent events. I'm just going to put the highlights here, since some of the writers tend to be verbose.
-The palace was indeed taken via gate spell, in the middle of the night.
-The majority of the armed forces were elsewhere at the time.
-Both clergy of Hextor and devils were spotted in the invasion forces.
-The location and status of King Lynwerd, Queen Xenia and the Grey Seer remain unknown.
-Princess Astra made it out alive, and is presumably in hiding.
-Sewardnt's solution to rebellious murmurs is quite Stalin-esque. Even speaking against the new "Emperor" is enough to land one in trouble; and turning in "subversives" is rewarded.
-While Sewardnt seems (note the operative word there) to have the capital under control, the provinces are another story. Womtham in particular is resisting, and doing so rather well so far.
If anyone wants details, I'll sort through my inbox and forward you a post or two.
Anyway, I don't really feel that I've seen enough of the game to really form an opinion just yet. Since nobody else posted this data, though, I thought I'd give y'all some more canon-fodder to fight over... er, discuss. ;)
Information has been sketchy and contradictory at best, thanks for clearing away some of the confusion...updates would be appreciated.
So Sewardnt controls only the capital and coast well the rest of the provinces are in revolt.
Does anyone out there know how much support Sewardnt actual has and why the populace doesn't simply march on the capital?
Sewardnt coup could only last the winter if Lynwerd arrives with the spring thaw.
As OleOneEye suggests the Coup scenario could follow the King Richard / John framework...any "robin hood" thieves or rangers out there?
Possible solutions to some comments OleOneEye:
1) Why Emperor Sewardnt: The Marklands suggest Sewardnt is obsessed with his " Imperial destiny" given his stunning success, why not, he wasn't exactly stable to start.
2) The Coasts and Navy were better treated by Lynwerd why rebel: The Marklands do say, the coasts ports have become havens for smuggling and rumored lately even slavers, which the authorites turn a blind eye. The Navy personnel and new recruits, badly needed after the war would come from these ports and the corruption and rot along the coast appears fairly advanced. Perhaps the ports and "new navy" composed of these types of men would support a more aggressive economic and military stance presented by Sewardnt.
Thursday night (6 Jan 05) I judged a LG Core adventure. A Nyrond triad member was one of the players. He told our group that Greyseer (as he's known in Thursday night's Greytalk) was going to monitor and copy the GH chat of Thursday (6 Jan 05) and e-mail it to the Nyrond triad. They are looking to observe your comments, if you participated in the chat.
So, I was judging the adventure, and could not attend the chat. So, was there anything too slanderous said that the Nyrond triad will hear about?
I asked a couple of times why the nobility of a predomidently goodly nation like Nyrond would back a moderatly low powered EVIL wizard... but Greyseer just kept answering that Sewarndt was Lawful, as if that expalined everything...
GLH complained about the Mis-use (In his opinion) of Onyxgate.
Delglath was just being himself.
Greyseer tried to explain more of the hows and whys it went down like it did... his explinations actually made a modercrum of sense, but seemed to be stretched a bit thin in places.
like I said this is what happened early on in the Nyrond conversation... I had to leave about 20-30 minutes into it because Alexis needed the computer. I got back to the chat about 11 pm, but the conversation was over by then.
Stuart
I asked a couple of times why the nobility of a predomidently goodly nation like Nyrond would back a moderatly low powered EVIL wizard... but Greyseer just kept answering that Sewarndt was Lawful, as if that expalined everything...
They are looking to observe your comments, if you participated in the chat.
And that means?
If somebody says something against LG, they take legal measures against him/her?
Not that I ever had chatted on Greytalk, but this feels really sick...
One thing is personal insult (something that I did not see here), another thing is interested criticism!
And that means?
If somebody says something against LG, they take legal measures against him/her?
Not that I ever had chatted on Greytalk, but this feels really sick...
One thing is personal insult (something that I did not see here), another thing is interested criticism!
I took that to mean that they were looking to see how it had been received out in the Greyhawk community. If that's the case then I don't see it as a problem. Unfortunately time differences make it difficult for me to participate in the Chats so I cannot tell what the tone of the conversation was.
If somebody says something against LG, they take legal measures against him/her?
there is no legal grounds for action against somebody speaking out against something in a chat room.... they could not take legal action against somebody who did so even if they wanted to (which I do not realy see them wanting to do).
Delglath was just being himself.
Gosh durnit! If I'd *known* I was going to be monitored and quoted and reviewed... well... then... I wouldn't have left the conversation for the sake of peace in the channel and would've argued vehemently with Greyseer about the evils of LG, and the utter retardedness of the triads.
Paladins of Wee Jas indeed!
Next time, I'll be more vocal :D
---------------
Withdrawl from Midmeadow!
The Valorous League of Blindness, having long held a presence in Midmeadow, has been recalled by the Theocrate back to the Pale. Although banausic diplomatic relations were underway with the former King, the Nyrond Imperium has agreed to a non-aggression pact with th Theocracy of the Pale, part of which involves the withdrawl of the VLB, to be replaced with the more benign Pholtan Knights Valorous Order of Celene. An official statement can be found the local Magistrate's office.
---------------
However, one thing I can say is that I've had a ton of fun playing in Nyrond, and I think the quality of the players and judges that we have is superb. From my limited experience in the campaign I have really enjoyed our regional mods on average far more than the out of region and core mods that I've played.
So far, my perception of the coup is that it was completely unexpected, by PCs and NPCs alike. Thus, it's been quite an exciting development for me. I have played in almost every regional scenario of years three and four, and the feeling that I got during those adventures was that Sewarndt was a real and growing threat throughout that time. My characters never died, and were generally "successful" in the scenarios, but I don't presume that a few powerful adventurers can stem the tide of a large conspiracy just by warning the King of imminent danger in a few select areas of the land.
Anyway, I know this doesn't address the "canon" issue for many of you, but I thought I'd let you know that the development and it's build-up has been a lot of fun for many of the players in Nyrond. I don't feel that my PCs' actions were ignored in any way, because I don't think my PCs can stop someone like Sewarndt (providing he has the resources that he apparently did) any more than an Improved Invisibility spell can make my body odor disappear. I'm looking forward to seeing more of the details exposed in this year's scenarios.
Sewarndt has had years to scheme, has made allies of many powerful creatures (as the PCs in Nyrond regional scenarios have learned), and could very well have some well-placed agents throughout Nyrond. Additionally, as PCs have discovered in year four, the nobility throughout the land are not unilaterally loyal to Lynwerd.
I'm sure someone will kindly point out my naivety here, but it seems like sudden political upsets are not in and of themselves non-canonical. One of the few Greyhawk things that I know something about (because one of my characters is Suel) is the literally overnightedness of the fall of the Sea Princes to the Scarlet Brotherhood. This came about through strength of arms, careful planning, and lots of well-placed agents.
Sewarndt has had years to scheme, has made allies of many powerful creatures (as the PCs in Nyrond regional scenarios have learned), and could very well have some well-placed agents throughout Nyrond. Additionally, as PCs have discovered in year four, the nobility throughout the land are not unilaterally loyal to Lynwerd.
No disputing that there is precedent for swift coups in GH, add Iuz's trouncing of the Horned Society and Rary's subjugation of the Bright Desert to that. The difference with this storyline is the Sea Princes is much smaller area wise and populationwise than Nyrond so what Sewardnt has accomplished is basically the greatest coup in recent GH history. The SB or Iuz should sign him up. However something about this one seems forced and contrived even despite the planning apparently devoted to it. I know little of Sewardnt, but I highly doubt he is of the caliber of Rary in magical resourcefulness or being an outlaw from a slumping nation, has the material and man power resources of a secret society like the Scarlet Brotherhood with its network decades in the making. So as you mention at the end, what would settle my mood better is if Lynwerd for whatever reason wasn't popular with his nobles and was ousted from the inside in a coup and Sewardnt, mastermind or not was put in charge by being patronizing to the now ruling interests. That would be more like real world politics and would require fewer fiendish pacts ;)
I don't feel that my PCs' actions were ignored in any way, because I don't think my PCs can stop someone like Sewarndt (providing he has the resources that he apparently did) ...
Well, regrettably, that is where there is a flaw in the Sewarndt debacle. He is a 9th level wizard - a personage that many mid-level adventuring parties can handle. Having gone into hiding in 586 CY, it is unlikey he had the chance to openly "adventure" and gain in power (level). As it is not very possible he grew in power to the likes of Szeffrin or Ivid V - personalities whom might have the power to use the gate that has been misapplied here. Pazrael should have disappeared during the Flight of Fiends in 586 CY, too. I think Moore's intent was to clean the setting up, to avoid this kind of uber-event.
Living Greyhawk had to endure the Ether Threat in Tenh and giants (again) in the west. I worry that this stunt in Nyrond will slip into jocularity and silliness the way the above did. I don't think anyone liked the Ether Threat story arc as a premise. Nyrond has been a great region. I don't think such a dramatic change was necessary because things have been running smoothly. In a shared world, a steady and reserved approach is less jarring to the cmpaign's mambers.
Mort covered the Scarlet Brotherhood issue well. The SB did have the full resources and dedication of an independent sovereign nation and decades of planning. They were not a disparate, vernal band of hide-aways composed of a few disgruntled nobles like Sewarndt and company.
The SB did have the full resources and dedication of an independent sovereign nation and decades of planning
Actually it was a number of centuries, even.
Either way about it, there is no arguement. What has been done is an impossibility by all means short of divine intervention and the triad has blatantly came up with the most silly Greyhawkian bullcrap I've ever read! Right up there with Rose Estes and the "sphincter squeezing" barbarian of hers. (that's an actual described event in one of her books!)
---------------
Withdrawl from Midmeadow!
The Valorous League of Blindness, having long held a presence in Midmeadow, has been recalled by the Theocrate back to the Pale. Although banausic diplomatic relations were underway with the former King, the Nyrond Imperium has agreed to a non-aggression pact with th Theocracy of the Pale, part of which involves the withdrawl of the VLB, to be replaced with the more benign Pholtan Knights Valorous Order of Celene. An official statement can be found the local Magistrate's office.
---------------
Why would this happen!!
If anything the Coup would strengthen The Valorous League of Blindness arguments and encourage the Pale's efforts in the north.
The coup of an LG monarch with an N (E) monarch with the regional post coup chaos should embolden the Pale to take a stronger stance given its reliance on Nyrond food shipments perhaps even sending "advisors" to encourage succession of the northern province.
The difference with this storyline is the Sea Princes is much smaller area wise and populationwise than Nyrond so what Sewardnt has accomplished is basically the greatest coup in recent GH history.
Sewarndt isn't in full control of Nyrond. He's taken over Rel Mord and some other parts of the country. There are areas still loyal to Lynwerd and his heirs, and others playing the waiting game and remaining neutral (maybe they're still too exhausted after the War, and would rather just go along with whomever wins).
I know little of Sewardnt, but I highly doubt he is of the caliber of Rary in magical resourcefulness or being an outlaw from a slumping nation, has the material and man power resources of a secret society like the Scarlet Brotherhood with its network decades in the making.
You do raise a good point here, but I'm not convinced Sewarndt is really in charge. I'm kind of wondering if the forces of Hextor may be behind it... but my main character in LG is a cleric of Heironeous, so that may just be some IC spillover.
If anything the Coup would strengthen The Valorous League of Blindness arguments and encourage the Pale's efforts in the north.
Yea, another poorly developed issue with this whole ordeal. I too am under the impression that a fanatically lawful faction such as the Valorous League of Blindness would take an even more determined stance to stay in Nyrond. Asparanth (Marquis of the March of Woodverge, as per the LGG, pg. 77) lost his faculties to govern Midmeadow and Woodverge in NMR3-03 Blind Faith Muted Voices. The timing could not be better for Carindrell, Zylinchin and Grishken - and The Pale.
All of a sudden, the notions of Lesser Nyrond and the Tripartite Alliance disappear and the Valorous League of Blindness up and leaves? All of those years in Woodverge and Chief Fiend-finder Zylinchin and Grishken are cowed by some mid-level usurper?
This is a perfect time for the Valorous League of Blindness to assert Lesser Nyrond. But they are "called back" by the Pale. Regrettably, I think this is another case of poorly applied and minterpreted history regarding this entire situation.
I've especially appreciated those posters who began constructing rationales for how Sewarndt might have succeeded. E.g., Crag, at Post 14; and OleOneEye, at Post 43. and those who added new information regarding playing LG in Nyrond. E.g., Magical Lin, at Post 44; cf. Sieylianna, at Post 28 (regarding the coup in LG Veluna).
Reflecting on the thread as a whole, I find myself sharing RLWilde's suspicion--"wondering if the forces of Hextor may be behind it..." Post 60. In fact, Greyson's mention of Duke Szeffrin in Post 57, along with Sewardnt's adopted title of emperor, suggests to me that Sewardnt could be the puppet of a hidden power, and Szeffrin, along with his patron, Pazrael, aka Pazuzu, may well be the power behind the throne. Or at least that's how I'd spin it, if I created this civil war IMC.
Coming to the Valorous League of Blindness, I hadn't known they retained a power base in Nyrond after Lynwerd was crowned. Ousting them would have been the subject of one of his early Royal Writs, IMC. Similar to other posters, it's hard to imagine why Grishken, one of the leaders of the Valorous League, would formally leave Midmeadow although ascending in the theocracy might suffice.
If I were to deal with Sewardnt and Nyrond, IMC, I think I'd leave off with a civil war. Sewardnt had his shot and sat on the throne for a moment, before his coup was thwarted by the Church of Heironeous. I think I'd feature Sewardnt in adventures that highlighted his desperation. PCs might encounter him in the Bandit Kingdoms or hear of him agitating throughout the countryside. PCs might accept hospitality from a nobleman and learn only after the fact that their fellow traveler was the ousted prince.
If I really focused on Nyrond, then I might use all of these ideas and weave Szeffrin and Pazuzu into it. Perhaps Sewardnt would hire the PCs to explore the ruins of Almor and have them bring him maleficient tomes of power. If they trusted this patron, they he might eventually accompany him into Chathold, where they would gain the opportunity to thwart his last minute attempt to open a Gate. The finale of such an adventure arc might witness the sacrifice of a PC to close the Gate, or I might fulfill Hierannea's prophecy that the castle of Goldbolt will one day stand on the shore of Relmor Bay...
First, I like the frontpage and web-newsletter of LG Nyrond. See http://www.nyrond.org/turbine/news-tales.
Second, the "VLB Withdrawl" sounds terribly concocted. In the first place, it would be highly unlikely for the Nyrond Imperium to continue negotiations begun during Lynwerd's reign. Instead, there would likely need to be several weeks passage before the Theocrat even learned of the change in leadership, unless whoever the Pale's main "ambassador" was a cleric or otherwise able to speak a word of recall, in which case it would likely take weeks to establish formal protocols between the Imperium and the Theocracy.
One could go on, but I think I made my point.
This is my understanding of how Sewarndt was successful in his coup. One of the regional modules featured the Onyxgate. This device supposedly allowed for the gating of whatever into where ever. The device has been non functional forever. The player characters are sent to the gate on a mission looking for the missing fourth legion (I think it was the fourth legion) but discover that the legion has betrayed the King and now serves his evil brother. The King moves from forces from Rel Mord and some other cities for form a buffer between him and the Onyxgate. The PCs never bothered to check out whether the gate actually worked and consequently never discovered that the gate is now fully functional.
As a new year's gift, Sewarndt uses his fully functional gate where ever I want device and appears in Rel Mord in the early morning hours. He overwhelms the city defenses which are now lighter than normal (most of Rel Mord's forces are now forming a buffer for a percieved threat from the Onyxgate). Before any troops can be recalled; Sewarndt marches additional troops from Onxygate (via Rel Mord) to take other cities.
Pausible. I'll buy it. I play in Nyrond and have met the two of the three triad members. Are they the greatest DMs or writers in the world? No. Better than me. Probably. But most of us are not the greatest writers in world either. I do know that they did what they did to present the players with a challenge.
As for the canon things... I have yet to see any campaign that actually stuck 100% to canon. When Gygax created Greyhawk, I thought he created it so it can grow and change. I wasn't aware that there was a rule in 1e, 2e, 3e or 3.5e that required a campaign to stay 100% canon. The fact that we are using 3.5e is not conductive to maintaining canon. I mean, Greyhawk (if you want to take an extreme) should not have any dwarven paladins, elven ranger/druids, half-elven rangers above (11th level - I think that was the cap for 1/2 elves) or half-orc bards. Certain things never existed or were even hinted at in GH before. The regional triads made adjustments on the fly. I don't understand the big deal. As DMs, most of us made stuff up on the fly. I'll even go as far, we all made up stuff on the fly that wasn't that intelligent. It happens. As a DM, you learn from your mistakes and move on. As a player, you either quit or you show some patience and keep playing.
A couple contradictory statements:
First, I like the frontpage and web-newsletter of LG Nyrond. See http://www.nyrond.org/turbine/news-tales.
Second, the "VLB Withdrawl" sounds terribly concocted. In the first place, it would be highly unlikely for the Nyrond Imperium to continue negotiations begun during Lynwerd's reign. Instead, there would likely need to be several weeks passage before the Theocrat even learned of the change in leadership, unless whoever the Pale's main "ambassador" was a cleric or otherwise able to speak a word of recall, in which case it would likely take weeks to establish formal protocols between the Imperium and the Theocracy.
One could go on, but I think I made my point.
It seems likely that the diplomatic embassy to Nyrond has a cleric capable of casting a "Sending" spell. The Pale is stuffed with clerics, most of their diplomats are clerics and it only is a 4th level spell.
In a world of magic, news travels a lot faster than horseback. The target of the sending gets to send a response, so he can say something like (in his 25 words)
"Sewart deposes Lynwerd, establishes imperium but says wants to keep Midmeadow Agreements and keep the peace. Please advise"
response
"Stall for time until we have a chance to get back to you. Keeping the peace is important because of Tenh"
(later after the Theocrat is notified and Prelates polled for advice via more sendings, send a message to the diplomat)
"Recognize the government on condition that he respects all existing
treaties. Keep an eye on him and let us know of any changes."
What you've got when dealing with the Theocracy is a telegraph system that only works a couple times a day. Still that's pretty darn good compared to real world communications for most of history.
Reflecting on the thread as a whole, I find myself sharing RLWilde's suspicion--"wondering if the forces of Hextor may be behind it..." Post 60. In fact, Greyson's mention of Duke Szeffrin in Post 57, along with Sewardnt's adopted title of emperor, suggests to me that Sewardnt could be the puppet of a hidden power, and Szeffrin, along with his patron, Pazrael, aka Pazuzu, may well be the power behind the throne. Or at least that's how I'd spin it, if I created this civil war IMC.
That's what I don't get. Szeffrin supposedly marched on Rauxes and disappeared there with the other contenders for the Malachite Throne.. along with the city itself!
Moreover, I thought a series of scenarii had been played recently in Nyrond that were based on the church of Heironeous going on a "search & destroy" nation-wide hunt for all Hextorians. IIRC, the Nyrond newsletter even reflected their success (or was it purely propaganda?)
Last but not least, even if the "lost legion" had turned rogue and sided with Sewardnt, I don't see how it could possibly fight the six other legions who were supposedly loyal to Lynwerd. Unless, of course, we're talking of an invasion force supported by so many fiends that "normal" soldiers just don't stand a chance...
Thanks for the point about sending. Sorry for the tardy response. At first I felt too busy; then I figured a response would be less than useful. Anyhow, I have extra time since I fell ill.
I was initially unfamilar with sending, so I reviewed past editions. You may be interested to know that sending was a 5th level Wizard spell prior to 3e. I think it was introduced in the 1e Unearthed Arcana.
Making it a 4th level cleric spell substantially improves the ability of churches to communicate on the Prime Material Plan. While some people may object that this makes such communication too easy, that's not my focus in this post although I note that in 1e, the spell limited communication to a number of words equal to the wizard's experience level (not including articles). In 3e, the spell permits up to 25 words.
Instead, I think solbergb's point raises a great issue as to how DMs have incorporated this change of the rules into the worldwide communication of churches in their campaigns. Sending enables organized religions to vastly increase their communicative potential--with important ramification for trade and warfare, especially given Veluna, the Theocracy of the Pale, the Empire of Iuz, and the priesthoods of Hextor, Zilchus, and Fharlanghn--to name a few.