Demons of the Abyss - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Demons of the Abyss

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Jan 11, 2005 20:18:02 Well, since I don't want to start up another "Takhisis=Tiamat" thread, and since it is established fact in the TWINS TRILOGY, when Takhisis is laying it out on the line for Raistlin ,about what he is about to go up against, makes it clear that Demon's are part of the world of the Abyss.

Are they the standard Type 1-6 demons that appear in the ADnD Monster Manual?
#2
cam_banks
Jan 11, 2005 20:51:23 Demons, devils, and all manner of evil outsiders reside in the Abyss and those pocket dimensions that border it. Are you familiar with 3rd edition rules, DMJoeSolarte? Just so we're on the same page?

Cheers,
Cam
#3
zombiegleemax
Jan 11, 2005 22:05:00
Demons, devils, and all manner of evil outsiders reside in the Abyss and those pocket dimensions that border it. Are you familiar with 3rd edition rules, DMJoeSolarte? Just so we're on the same page?

Cheers,
Cam

Yes, I am familiar with the THird Edition rules. I don't have my 3rd Edition Monster Manual Handy, so I was going off memory...which often reverts to 1st Edition AD&D, where Demons of the Abyss were presented in many cases as Type 1, Type 2s, etc.

So, are these "demons" of the Abyss (I have never seen them presented as 'devils' in DragonLance) the same as from the Monster Manual?
#4
cam_banks
Jan 11, 2005 23:19:56
Yes, I am familiar with the THird Edition rules. I don't have my 3rd Edition Monster Manual Handy, so I was going off memory...which often reverts to 1st Edition AD&D, where Demons of the Abyss were presented in many cases as Type 1, Type 2s, etc.

So, are these "demons" of the Abyss (I have never seen them presented as 'devils' in DragonLance) the same as from the Monster Manual?

Yep. Demons are the chaotic evil ones, devils are the lawful evil ones. Although given the relative unknown nature of outsiders on Krynn, you'd forgive the average person for calling them all "demons."

Cheers,
Cam
#5
jonesy
Jan 12, 2005 9:53:22
Yep. Demons are the chaotic evil ones, devils are the lawful evil ones. Although given the relative unknown nature of outsiders on Krynn, you'd forgive the average person for calling them all "demons."

Or maybe your avarage devil is lawful enough to stay out of the prime and concentrates his efforts on the "wars in heavens".
#6
cam_banks
Jan 12, 2005 15:52:49
Or maybe your avarage devil is lawful enough to stay out of the prime and concentrates his efforts on the "wars in heavens".

Nah. All the real action is happening down on Krynn.

Cheers,
Cam
#7
zombiegleemax
Jan 12, 2005 22:30:24 So just we we all understand, we are saying that when Takhisis threatened Raistlin with the full might of her armies and the narrative included "Demons" amongst the Dark Dragons, Clerics, Wizards, and warriors in the Twins Trilogy, that we are talking about the Dretchs, Quasits, Succubus, Bebilith, Retrievers, Vrocks, Hezrou, Glaberezu, Nalfeshenne, Marililths, and Balor type demons that are described on page 41-47 on the ADnD 3rd Edition Monster Manual?

(btw, the way the Balor's are described, don't they sound like the Balrogs from LOTR?)
#8
daedavias_dup
Jan 12, 2005 22:45:46 In terms of DL, the word Fiend(demons, devils, annis hags, etc. all lumped into one.) seems to be synonymous with the word Demon, at least in its usage. Raistlin, while the most powerful mage to walk the planet, most likely subscribed to the belief that all denisens of the Abyss were Demons, while in actuality the better term would be Fiend, since devils and other evil outsiders were included as well. According to the the DL DM Screen, all of the evil outsiders exist and serve specific gods in particular. I.E. Devils tend to serve lawful gods (which is where Raistlin's logical falacy becomes apparent), Demons serve chaotic gods, while the neutral gods tend to use other servants. In the case of DL, a rakshasa (sp?) would be considered a demon of the Abyss, despite it not actually being a demon. The same would be true for Annis Hags, Achaierai, and other, non-fiendish outsiders. Demon merely means something hailing from the Abyss.
#9
cam_banks
Jan 12, 2005 23:33:51
The same would be true for Annis Hags, Achaierai, and other, non-fiendish outsiders. Demon merely means something hailing from the Abyss.

Annis hags are mortal creatures. Night hags are what you're referring to.

Cheers,
Cam
#10
daedavias_dup
Jan 12, 2005 23:40:53
Annis hags are mortal creatures. Night hags are what you're referring to.

Cheers,
Cam

Ah, thanks Cam. I didn't have my Monster Manual handy so I was going off what sounded the most like a fiendish creature.
#11
ferratus
Jan 13, 2005 11:18:17 If I remember my DM's Screen:

Devils owe fealty to Sargonnas
Demons owe fealty to Hiddukel

It also says that Morgion and Chemosh rely on both demons and devils... but I disagree with this. I think Chemosh relies on the tormented dead, and not demons at all. It isn't as if Chemosh's clerics need demons or devils, they have summon undead spells (from the Age of Mortals book).

For both Morgion and Zeboim, I would create new choirs of fiends to complement the devils and demons. For Morgion I would create more creatures much like Night Hags, who specialize in disease, madness and possession. For Zeboim of course, there are creatures known as "Leviathans" who are basically made up of various sea-like monsters.

Takhisis of course, just uses dragons. Chronicles already establishes that dragons were banished to the Abyss along with Takhisis by Huma, and both Dragons of Summer Flame and War of Souls shows that Dragons have ready access to the outer planes.

Edit: Huma was never banished to the Abyss! I forgot "Takhisis by".
#12
zombiegleemax
Jan 13, 2005 22:14:42
If I remember my DM's Screen:

Devils owe fealty to Sargonnas
Demons owe fealty to Hiddukel

It also says that Morgion and Chemosh rely on both demons and devils... but I disagree with this. I think Chemosh relies on the tormented dead, and not demons at all. It isn't as if Chemosh's clerics need demons or devils, they have summon undead spells (from the Age of Mortals book).

For both Morgion and Zeboim, I would create new choirs of fiends to complement the devils and demons. For Morgion I would create more creatures much like Night Hags, who specialize in disease, madness and possession. For Zeboim of course, there are creatures known as "Leviathans" who are basically made up of various sea-like monsters.

Takhisis of course, just uses dragons. Chronicles already establishes that dragons were banished to the Abyss along with Huma, and both Dragons of Summer Flame and War of Souls shows that Dragons have ready access to the outer planes.

While at the time the TWINS trilogy was done, i don't beleive there had been any mention of any other God of Evil in the novels, which is what I go by most of the time. Anyway, based on that, it was clear there were demons in the service of Takhisis when Raistlin attacked, although thebooks are very clear he destroyed almost all of them.
#13
Nived
Jan 13, 2005 23:01:56
It also says that Morgion and Chemosh rely on both demons and devils... but I disagree with this. I think Chemosh relies on the tormented dead, and not demons at all. It isn't as if Chemosh's clerics need demons or devils, they have summon undead spells (from the Age of Mortals book).

This is incorrect. And if you care to read some spoilers for KoD I'll tell you why.

Obligitory spoiler space.

The Shattered Temple which the PCs must traverse was destroyed by a CLeric of Mishakal turned Cleric of Chemosh. Durring the adventure the players see flickers of The Night of Betrayal 700 years prior. One of the most dramatic, which I went on a tangent describing in more detail than was really nessacary, was when The Betrayer called forth Devils from the depths of the Abyss to tear through the temples defenses. The Kytons (one of my favorite fiends) tear through the clerics and ogres (indescriminately)in the name of Chemosh (because more bodies mean more undead doesn't it?). Then there was the emaciated Bearded Devil (Chemoshes devils have skelletal appearances even though they aren't undead) who went a little crazy after 700 years trapped in a blessed room. I had a lot of fun with him.
#14
Mortepierre
Jan 14, 2005 3:11:20
It also says that Morgion and Chemosh rely on both demons and devils... but I disagree with this. I think Chemosh relies on the tormented dead, and not demons at all.

Then it's a good thing you didn't remember correctly ;)

The DM Screen's booklet states that Chemosh relies almost exclusively on fiendish undead, eschewing the service of other extraplanar creatures.

The only thing that bothers me with this is that Fiendish is a template that can't be applied to undeads...
#15
ferratus
Jan 14, 2005 10:10:30
This is incorrect. And if you care to read some spoilers for KoD I'll tell you why.

Oh, I know how the fiends are being handled, I just don't agree with it. Like Mortepierre says anyway, I was wrong about Chemosh using demons in regard to the DM's screen, though appearantly not for KoD.

Anyway, this is what I'd like to see:

Takhisis: Dragons
Sargonnas: Devils
Hiddukel: Demons
Chemosh: Undead (they don't really need the fiendish template)
Morgion: Shedim (fiends of madness, possession, disease)
Zeboim: Leviathans (aquatic fiends, like the Maquawb, Koalinith, Orughi, etc.)

As for Raistlin fighting demons in the Abyss, that is easily explained away. You don't think the other Gods of evil were doing nothing while Raistlin fought Takhisis do you?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Jan 11, 2005 20:18:02	Well, since I don't want to start up another "Takhisis=Tiamat" thread, and since it is established fact in the TWINS TRILOGY, when Takhisis is laying it out on the line for Raistlin ,about what he is about to go up against, makes it clear that Demon's are part of the world of the Abyss. Are they the standard Type 1-6 demons that appear in the ADnD Monster Manual?
#2 cam_banks Jan 11, 2005 20:51:23	Demons, devils, and all manner of evil outsiders reside in the Abyss and those pocket dimensions that border it. Are you familiar with 3rd edition rules, DMJoeSolarte? Just so we're on the same page? Cheers, Cam
#3 zombiegleemax Jan 11, 2005 22:05:00	Demons, devils, and all manner of evil outsiders reside in the Abyss and those pocket dimensions that border it. Are you familiar with 3rd edition rules, DMJoeSolarte? Just so we're on the same page? Cheers, Cam Yes, I am familiar with the THird Edition rules. I don't have my 3rd Edition Monster Manual Handy, so I was going off memory...which often reverts to 1st Edition AD&D, where Demons of the Abyss were presented in many cases as Type 1, Type 2s, etc. So, are these "demons" of the Abyss (I have never seen them presented as 'devils' in DragonLance) the same as from the Monster Manual?
#4 cam_banks Jan 11, 2005 23:19:56	Yes, I am familiar with the THird Edition rules. I don't have my 3rd Edition Monster Manual Handy, so I was going off memory...which often reverts to 1st Edition AD&D, where Demons of the Abyss were presented in many cases as Type 1, Type 2s, etc. So, are these "demons" of the Abyss (I have never seen them presented as 'devils' in DragonLance) the same as from the Monster Manual? Yep. Demons are the chaotic evil ones, devils are the lawful evil ones. Although given the relative unknown nature of outsiders on Krynn, you'd forgive the average person for calling them all "demons." Cheers, Cam
#5 jonesy Jan 12, 2005 9:53:22	Yep. Demons are the chaotic evil ones, devils are the lawful evil ones. Although given the relative unknown nature of outsiders on Krynn, you'd forgive the average person for calling them all "demons." Or maybe your avarage devil is lawful enough to stay out of the prime and concentrates his efforts on the "wars in heavens".
#6 cam_banks Jan 12, 2005 15:52:49	Or maybe your avarage devil is lawful enough to stay out of the prime and concentrates his efforts on the "wars in heavens". Nah. All the real action is happening down on Krynn. Cheers, Cam
#7 zombiegleemax Jan 12, 2005 22:30:24	So just we we all understand, we are saying that when Takhisis threatened Raistlin with the full might of her armies and the narrative included "Demons" amongst the Dark Dragons, Clerics, Wizards, and warriors in the Twins Trilogy, that we are talking about the Dretchs, Quasits, Succubus, Bebilith, Retrievers, Vrocks, Hezrou, Glaberezu, Nalfeshenne, Marililths, and Balor type demons that are described on page 41-47 on the ADnD 3rd Edition Monster Manual? (btw, the way the Balor's are described, don't they sound like the Balrogs from LOTR?)
#8 daedavias_dup Jan 12, 2005 22:45:46	In terms of DL, the word Fiend(demons, devils, annis hags, etc. all lumped into one.) seems to be synonymous with the word Demon, at least in its usage. Raistlin, while the most powerful mage to walk the planet, most likely subscribed to the belief that all denisens of the Abyss were Demons, while in actuality the better term would be Fiend, since devils and other evil outsiders were included as well. According to the the DL DM Screen, all of the evil outsiders exist and serve specific gods in particular. I.E. Devils tend to serve lawful gods (which is where Raistlin's logical falacy becomes apparent), Demons serve chaotic gods, while the neutral gods tend to use other servants. In the case of DL, a rakshasa (sp?) would be considered a demon of the Abyss, despite it not actually being a demon. The same would be true for Annis Hags, Achaierai, and other, non-fiendish outsiders. Demon merely means something hailing from the Abyss.
#9 cam_banks Jan 12, 2005 23:33:51	The same would be true for Annis Hags, Achaierai, and other, non-fiendish outsiders. Demon merely means something hailing from the Abyss. Annis hags are mortal creatures. Night hags are what you're referring to. Cheers, Cam
#10 daedavias_dup Jan 12, 2005 23:40:53	Annis hags are mortal creatures. Night hags are what you're referring to. Cheers, Cam Ah, thanks Cam. I didn't have my Monster Manual handy so I was going off what sounded the most like a fiendish creature.
#11 ferratus Jan 13, 2005 11:18:17	If I remember my DM's Screen: Devils owe fealty to Sargonnas Demons owe fealty to Hiddukel It also says that Morgion and Chemosh rely on both demons and devils... but I disagree with this. I think Chemosh relies on the tormented dead, and not demons at all. It isn't as if Chemosh's clerics need demons or devils, they have summon undead spells (from the Age of Mortals book). For both Morgion and Zeboim, I would create new choirs of fiends to complement the devils and demons. For Morgion I would create more creatures much like Night Hags, who specialize in disease, madness and possession. For Zeboim of course, there are creatures known as "Leviathans" who are basically made up of various sea-like monsters. Takhisis of course, just uses dragons. Chronicles already establishes that dragons were banished to the Abyss along with Takhisis by Huma, and both Dragons of Summer Flame and War of Souls shows that Dragons have ready access to the outer planes. Edit: Huma was never banished to the Abyss! I forgot "Takhisis by".
#12 zombiegleemax Jan 13, 2005 22:14:42	If I remember my DM's Screen: Devils owe fealty to Sargonnas Demons owe fealty to Hiddukel It also says that Morgion and Chemosh rely on both demons and devils... but I disagree with this. I think Chemosh relies on the tormented dead, and not demons at all. It isn't as if Chemosh's clerics need demons or devils, they have summon undead spells (from the Age of Mortals book). For both Morgion and Zeboim, I would create new choirs of fiends to complement the devils and demons. For Morgion I would create more creatures much like Night Hags, who specialize in disease, madness and possession. For Zeboim of course, there are creatures known as "Leviathans" who are basically made up of various sea-like monsters. Takhisis of course, just uses dragons. Chronicles already establishes that dragons were banished to the Abyss along with Huma, and both Dragons of Summer Flame and War of Souls shows that Dragons have ready access to the outer planes. While at the time the TWINS trilogy was done, i don't beleive there had been any mention of any other God of Evil in the novels, which is what I go by most of the time. Anyway, based on that, it was clear there were demons in the service of Takhisis when Raistlin attacked, although thebooks are very clear he destroyed almost all of them.
#13 Nived Jan 13, 2005 23:01:56	It also says that Morgion and Chemosh rely on both demons and devils... but I disagree with this. I think Chemosh relies on the tormented dead, and not demons at all. It isn't as if Chemosh's clerics need demons or devils, they have summon undead spells (from the Age of Mortals book). This is incorrect. And if you care to read some spoilers for KoD I'll tell you why. Obligitory spoiler space. The Shattered Temple which the PCs must traverse was destroyed by a CLeric of Mishakal turned Cleric of Chemosh. Durring the adventure the players see flickers of The Night of Betrayal 700 years prior. One of the most dramatic, which I went on a tangent describing in more detail than was really nessacary, was when The Betrayer called forth Devils from the depths of the Abyss to tear through the temples defenses. The Kytons (one of my favorite fiends) tear through the clerics and ogres (indescriminately)in the name of Chemosh (because more bodies mean more undead doesn't it?). Then there was the emaciated Bearded Devil (Chemoshes devils have skelletal appearances even though they aren't undead) who went a little crazy after 700 years trapped in a blessed room. I had a lot of fun with him.
#14 Mortepierre Jan 14, 2005 3:11:20	It also says that Morgion and Chemosh rely on both demons and devils... but I disagree with this. I think Chemosh relies on the tormented dead, and not demons at all. Then it's a good thing you didn't remember correctly ;) The DM Screen's booklet states that Chemosh relies almost exclusively on fiendish undead, eschewing the service of other extraplanar creatures. The only thing that bothers me with this is that Fiendish is a template that can't be applied to undeads...
#15 ferratus Jan 14, 2005 10:10:30	This is incorrect. And if you care to read some spoilers for KoD I'll tell you why. Oh, I know how the fiends are being handled, I just don't agree with it. Like Mortepierre says anyway, I was wrong about Chemosh using demons in regard to the DM's screen, though appearantly not for KoD. Anyway, this is what I'd like to see: Takhisis: Dragons Sargonnas: Devils Hiddukel: Demons Chemosh: Undead (they don't really need the fiendish template) Morgion: Shedim (fiends of madness, possession, disease) Zeboim: Leviathans (aquatic fiends, like the Maquawb, Koalinith, Orughi, etc.) As for Raistlin fighting demons in the Abyss, that is easily explained away. You don't think the other Gods of evil were doing nothing while Raistlin fought Takhisis do you?