For instance, according to Gaz9, Fire Island's volcanic peak is named Mount Thymas, but on the trail maps, it is named Great Fire Mouth. Similarly, the trail maps have Blackrock Island's volcano named Old Nenthead, but the Gaz says it is named Halfpeak.
I think this was because the map for Gaz9 was very barebones- a few locations with names, and the rest was all icons. When the trail maps came out, the map was fleshed out, new locations were added, and new names were given. Apparently they didn't check the Gazetteer to make sure the names/locations matched up, though.
Anyone else noted any map/Gaz discrepancies like this?
In general, the trail maps seem much more up-to-date than the gazetteer maps, possibly because they had to make certain revisions to fit everything together properly. The coastlines, shallow water lines and especially islands all change rather a lot from map to map, sometimes rather more drastically than I would like.
My favourite glitches so far involve GAZ14. Since it was made after all the others gazetteers and the trail maps, they should have known better, but unfortunately there are a number of inconsistencies. The main issue is the ownership of Malpheggi Bay: according to GAZ8, GAZ11 and TM1, the majority of the bay is owned by the Atruaghin Clans. However, GAZ14's map has the border just off the coast, thereby ceding ownership of the bay to either Darokin, the Five Shires, or Ierendi. It seems most likely that the border was cut short in order to fit the map into half a poster map, in which case we can pretty safely say that the bay is indeed Atruaghin territory. The Wrath of the Immortals map seems to support this.
And that's not all! The border with Ierendi is also messed up. This one is another judgement call, and again I tend to side with the trail map over GAZ14.
There are others, too. I guess I should really be taking notes when I find these things.
My favourite glitches so far involve GAZ14. Since it was made after all the others gazetteers and the trail maps, they should have known better, but unfortunately there are a number of inconsistencies.
Funny you should mention the Atruaghin Plateau. Here's a thread I posted not too long ago on this subject:
Atruaghin Map
The main issue is the ownership of Malpheggi Bay: according to GAZ8, GAZ11 and TM1, the majority of the bay is owned by the Atruaghin Clans. However, GAZ14's map has the border just off the coast, thereby ceding ownership of the bay to either Darokin, the Five Shires, or Ierendi. It seems most likely that the border was cut short in order to fit the map into half a poster map, in which case we can pretty safely say that the bay is indeed Atruaghin territory. The Wrath of the Immortals map seems to support this.
For some reason, the entirety of the Atruaghin map seems to have been shrunk. I'd have to agree with you about the mistake being on the Gaz14 map.
Thank you,
Graywolf
Please forgive my ignorance, but I had not heard of a "Trail map" What product did it come in?
There were four Trail Maps put out by TSR back in the 90s. Two of them (the first two) were large, poster sized versions of the Gazetteer maps. One covered the Western Known World (roughly Darokin through Karameikos), the other covered the Eastern Countries (Thyatis, the Northern Reaches, Ylaruam, and a good chunk of the western Isle of Dawn). Basically, they were just the 8 mile hex maps you got in the Gazetteers, but put all together. They were slightly enhanced (some of the skimpier Gaz maps, like Minrothad, were fleshed out a bit more) and had some other interesting bits on them- geopolitical data on the Known World nations, astrology, etc.
The other two Trail Maps were of Kara-Tur and the Forgotten Realms (or just Waterdeep- I forget which). I never picked them up, though I kind of wish I'd grabbed the Kara-Tur one in hindsight.
As for the name changes, I like to think of this as a good thing. Many RW landmarks or even regions many more than one name. Mount Thymas could be the volcano's name as known to traders and urban folk, likely inflenced many years ago by the Thyatian tongue, perhaps a loose translation, but it's local name is Great Fire Mouth (as told by the local guides who showed the mountain to the mappers). A similar thing for Halfpeak/Old Nenthead. Well, that's my take on it.
There are others, too. I guess I should really be taking notes when I find these things.
I hear ya on that one!
I agree on the name changes. Having two names does make things more interesting, although it's a pain for mapping. Which name would you go with? Obviously both would be best, but it would take up a lot more space then.
About the Atruaghin Plateau - that's a nice map, Andrew. I notice that you compromised with the Malpheggi Bay border, giving half the territory to the Clans, and presumably the other half to the Shires? And the Ierendi/Clans border glitch is nicely hidden beneath the map's title. ;)
By the way, I'm very interested in your talk about 8 mile per hex maps of the Sind area. Did you finish that project? The maps have always been one of my favourite things about Mystara, and I'd love to see the whole world done in 8 miles per hex at some point. :D
About the Atruaghin Plateau - that's a nice map, Andrew. I notice that you compromised with the Malpheggi Bay border, giving half the territory to the Clans, and presumably the other half to the Shires? And the Ierendi/Clans border glitch is nicely hidden beneath the map's title. ;)
I don't think I'd even noticed the Ierendi glitch until you brought it up- that was just luck that it got obscured that way.
As for the other, yeah, it looks like the Shires did get the rest of the bay. It seems to fit better, as Darokin has never been known for having a navy (just the opposite, judging by all the troubles they had with the Sea Reavers), while the Shires and the Atruaghin Clans (at least the Turtles) are known to be more active seafarers.
By the way, I'm very interested in your talk about 8 mile per hex maps of the Sind area. Did you finish that project?
I've got half-finished maps of just about every mumlyket in Sind, at 8 mi/hex. Haven't gotten around to completing them. The ones in the closest state of completion are Nagpuri (due to my Clans work), Peshmir and Kadesh. I'll sit down tonight and put some more work into them.
My trouble is that I get the broad outlines done, then spend a lot of time fussing over the details that go into them. In particular, with Sind, the problem is trying to figure out how/where to place other towns/villages in the 8 mile versions of the maps. The population figures given for the various mumlykets in CoM doesn't lend much (if any) room for additional urban population centers- usually, the 80/20 rural/urban ratio is already taken up by the given towns/cities- which means either the population figures are wrong, or else there is a lot of empty space in those nations.
The population figures given for the various mumlykets in CoM doesn't lend much (if any) room for additional urban population centers- usually, the 80/20 rural/urban ratio is already taken up by the given towns/cities- which means either the population figures are wrong, or else there is a lot of empty space in those nations.
I'd go with the population figures being wrong...
With the Isle of Dawn, I actually went back and recalculated all the major kingdoms using Bruce Heard's system from way back in Dragon some long number ago... of course, I extrapolated from 8 miles hexes to 24 miles hexes. Turns out when you use the normal population figures for the IoD, most of the territories end up having a population density less than that of the Sahara Desert... which is really, really low, even by medieval standards...
So if you were a masochist (and like most of us Mystara fans who do this kind of stuff, I'm sure you have a streak) you might want to invest the time in re-calculating all the population figures...
So if you were a masochist (and like most of us Mystara fans who do this kind of stuff, I'm sure you have a streak) you might want to invest the time in re-calculating all the population figures...
Not a bad idea- I'll take a crack at it later today. Some preliminary results from the barebones Nagpuri that I've done gets a result (area and population-wise) not unlike that of the CoM entry for the nation. With a bit of tweaking of the terrain (adding some rivers, hills, etc.), it looks like I might be able to get some satisfactory results for that mumlyket, at least.
(The added bonus is that, doing the excel sheet helps me to figure out some ideas of what sorts of terrain I should put in to get the figures to mesh up. Thanks for the idea!)
I'll work on this tomorrow- and I'll do two versions, one with the Tuma map I did a while back incorporated into it, and one without, so you can all see the results.
The other two Trail Maps were of Kara-Tur and the Forgotten Realms (or just Waterdeep- I forget which). I never picked them up, though I kind of wish I'd grabbed the Kara-Tur one in hindsight.
Hello!
I dont know if you wanted the Kara-Tur trail map for collectors value, but I found this link on the web where you can download it and the trail map for the western countries is there as well.
http://www.rpgnow.com/search.php?query=trail+map
Have fun and take care all of you.
Mikael
Presumably that's the reason why they didn't ever release the Eastern Countries map as a PDF. I do sympathise a little with the person who scanned these maps, because it can't have been an easy job. But putting such a woefully incomplete scan up for sale is unethical.
In case anyone is considering buying it, you should probably know before you decide that the Western Countries Trail Map advertised on rpgnow.com and svgames.com is incomplete. Large sections of the map are missing, and the sections they do have do not overlap, so even if you go to the bother of exporting them to an image processing program - and realigning them, since most are scanned slightly squint - they don't fit together.
Presumably that's the reason why they didn't ever release the Eastern Countries map as a PDF. I do sympathise a little with the person who scanned these maps, because it can't have been an easy job. But putting such a woefully incomplete scan up for sale is unethical.
I agree. I bought the Western Trail Maps from SVGames and lots were missing. A shame really, because it is a cool product. I really enjoyed the parts of it that is readable, such as information on road conditions, distances between major towns, precipitation tables and lists of mountain chains and high peaks. IMO that info was worth the US$ 4.74 that I paid for the download, which in Denmark is less than a Big Mac meal... :D
I have bought most of the X, C and M series as downloads from SVGames as well and they are generally of ok quality. Only the Saga of the Shadowlord adventure is a very poor scan that is hard to read.
If any of you are wondering whether or not to buy a download of the aforementioned modules you are free to check with me first about the quality if I have it.
:-) Jesper
Have fun and take care all of you.
Mikael
I just realised that what I wrote could be interpreted that way, but I absolutely didn't mean it like that. My apologies.Also, I agree with Spellweaver that even though it was incomplete, I also don't regret buying it. $4.74 is not expensive for what it does include. The bigger problem is the disappointment on finding it's incomplete. (And I already own two copies of each trail map in the real world, so I might have thought twice if I had known before buying it that it's incomplete. :P )
For me, it doesn't matter so much that the PDFs are sometimes not quite complete, as long as they are mostly intact. I bought them in order to allow me to take them back with me to Japan, because carrying all my books is just not possible. So as long as they are generally legible, and mostly complete, I'm happy.
Still, they should really list on each page whether the product is complete or not. I think rpgnow.com has put a note on the trail map page, but that's not the only one that's incomplete - not by a long shot.
It's not just the two volcanoes that Andrew mentioned, but lots more. I only had time to read the first paragraph, about Trader's Isle, before I had to come to work, but it seems that Gold Needle should actually be Mt. Landfall, and Mt. Minroth should be Immortal's Home. Moreover, there is apparently a river flowing from Mt. Landfall to the city of Minrothad.
It seems that even the trail map version of Minrothad didn't include all the information, and it seems likely that whoever upgraded Minrothad for the trail maps didn't check the Gazetteer for reference.
I'm going to have a go at updating the map with all of this info hopefully later tonight. Eventually I'd like to adjust all the maps to be more in tune with their respective Gazetteers.
Or you can click here to see the post on its own.
The other two Trail Maps were of Kara-Tur and the Forgotten Realms (or just Waterdeep- I forget which). I never picked them up, though I kind of wish I'd grabbed the Kara-Tur one in hindsight.
Wasn't the fourth Trail-Map a one of Krynn?
Wasn't the fourth Trail-Map a one of Krynn?
You're both right - there are five trail maps, not four. TM1 and 2 are the two Mystara ones, 3 is Krynn, 4 is Waterdeep, 5 is Kara-Tur.
For more details:
http://www.acaeum.com/DDIndexes/MiscPages/TM.html
Thorf, I am curious to know which version of the Atruaghin Plateau you are planning on mapping, the reduced 8-mile per hex map as in the gaz, or the larger 24-mile per hex version as in the Wrath of the Immortals and Champions of Mystara. I can see it as a hard choice from your perspective.
I mean, is one version "more canon" than the other? Normally I'd say the gaz is the definitive authority for info on that nation, but OTOH, WotI and CoM are the more recent publications. Thankfully we have Andrew's map of the larger plateau in either case but I'd love to see this version as the "standard". It's only a personal preference, but it will directly affect any preceeding maps of the surrounding area such as Sind.
Now, when it comes to Sind, the 24-mile hex and Almanac maps are the only "canon" maps we have (AKAIK) and they all show the larger version of the plateau. So, do you stay canon with the Atruaghin gaz map or the WotI/CoM/Almanac maps. (Hee, hee, hee... talk about between a rock and a hard place ;) )
I'm certain you've wrestled with this already; I'm hoping to perhaps sway you to the BIG side.
How does everyone else see this issue? Do you prefer the smaller gaz-size plateau, or the larger post-gaz-size plateau? Let the masses be heard (or just hear the masses, as you prefer :D ).
How does everyone else see this issue? Do you prefer the smaller gaz-size plateau, or the larger post-gaz-size plateau? Let the masses be heard (or just hear the masses, as you prefer :D ).
I'm obviously a little biased here, but one problem thta definitely arises out of keeping the 8 mile hex map as the "standard" is that the 24 mile hex map of Sind (which is the only existing "detailed" map of that region), as well as 24 mile hex maps of "all parts west" then become inaccurate- you've got a plateau which is larger than it should be. You either have a "gap" to fill in where the plateau is, you have to "shrink" the 24 mile map (in order to make those parts of Sind on the 8 mile map correspond correctly) or some other solution that I can't think of offhand.
None of these solutions are particularly elegant, but for my tastes, I prefer the "large" map that I created. But I also like the thought of giving the Atruaghin clans more area.
I'm really enjoying the mapping Thorf is doing, though it has made me somewhat reluctant to continue with my own mapping efforts- his look so much better, darn it! ;)
Looking into getting Illustrator so that I can upgrade my own maps with the new standard. It's also nice to see that my own observations about inconsistencies with mapping aren't just my own observations- but are actual discrepancies that others have noticed.