At that time the campaign was a mixed one,meaning different level characters that were supposed to meet each other etc...forget me for not getting into details. Two of the characters were really high levels - mine was 38 and another one's was 35. The rest 4 or 5 PCs were about 7 or 8 level. So then we played in turns, few minutes each player soloed with the dm playing with him.
I was an archmage sorcerer etc etc prestige class character I didn't need to sleep eat, I could fly at will anyway what I mean to say is that I could survive easily. After travelling for a while in this unknown area (don't know anything about domains) I reached a village. There was a blackdressed woman with her face covered and two red eyes that could be seen and two almost naked pale skinned "humanoids" escorted her. She was a tax collector.
My character watched as she gathered the taxes and ordered a young man from that village to come with her. The young man followed in sorrow. Then I ask the villagers what this was about. They said that she was the tax collecter, that they suffer from their domain lord etc etc...that once per month the lord takes a young woman form the village with him and she is never to be seen again, and that the female tax collector frequently takes a young man with her which later returns after a day or two, almost dead very sick etc and remembers nothing from what happened to him.
So I go take a look. I cast EVERY protective spell I could think of. Invisibility ghost form mind blank and many others even epic spell buffs. So I go take a look at this lord's castle. While I only put my had through the gates entrance(being invisible, incorporeal etc that is) he is right there looking at me and greeting me. "I was expecting you" he says. "Me why?" I reply. "To clean my house of course" he says. While I was ready to reply something like "what on earth are you talking about?" the DM says "you think that this is a very good idea". I say "what?". DM says "you heard me you think that this is a very good idea". I say "no I don't I am not his maiden". DM says " no you do and you spent the next day cleaning the house, oh btw after you finish cleaning the house (rolls dice) you feel kinda sick which means you receive -15 Constitution. Me "WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? HE JUST SAYS BE MY ***** AND I DO IT???????" DM says "yes exactly that". Me: " so my immunities don't count I can't roll a saving throw not at all???" DM starts to mumble : "I...err... right exactly" Me: "Ok ok point taken yes I know I am an NPC ok ok" DM:"something like that"
Needless to say I was frustrated for being so humiliated. I didn't even have a chance to react to try to save my self. Nothing. HE just told me to do somethiong and I just did it. Simpla as that.
After that when my character "recovered", he was very angry and tried to destroy the castle. Me:"I cast disintegrate on these damn walls". DM:" The walls are permanently protected by spell reflection"(lucky me I wasn't disinintegrated by my own spells). Me:"ARGGHHHH. I cast telekinesis and throw as many rocks as possible to hese walls". DM:"The rocks simply rebound and land back from where you moved them" Me:"Ok ok point taken...."
After that my character travelled to another domain. I didn't know OOC that I was in another domain, I just knew that I travelled a lot by flying and I landed in another village. The villagers there were hostile with me and said things like "outlanders are not welcome here". I personally as a person was a bit angry at that time and the time was about 4:30-5:00 am. Anyway I have antimagic field on just in case so all normal buffs are gone except epic buffs(u know that epic spells at high levels are almost 100% sure to function normally in antimagic fields). So my epic buffs were functioning. And then all of a sudden the villagers shapechange to werewolves and attack me.
I use epic spell to transform to red great wyrm and not attack them but simply shout "Go away from me!" which they did. Then all of a sudden a noble man arrives out of nowhere. He says "Greeting no need to be hostile" Me
after being angry from what happened before and having played for many hours and being almost 5am)"are these stupid peasants your minions?" ANyway we have a dialogue where I speak quite ironically and agressively for obvious reasons and the noble man(domain lord probably) says" I am starting to lose my patience) Me:"I don't care" DM:roll initiative Me:ok I roll(I win inititative) Dm: what do you do? Me: (since antimagic was on I said) full attack in my dragon form DM: ok you are done? ME: yes DM : he has a suprise for you. You see a big black sphere and then ... nothing. Me: ????DM: oh yeah you automatically succeed on spellcraft checks. Well he cast anihilation(we were still playing by 3.0 rules-anihilation was in a dragon magazine a spell for the force domain). Your character sheet plz. Me:fine. bye(I left). After a while a day or two I told him how did I die since antimagic was on. You didn't tell me he says. I reply" I told you that I have it on". he says"you didn't tell me when the spell was cast" Me: Yeap I didn't but my brain was a mess at that time. He says :OH well sorry then nothing I can do about it it. Me :...
So tell me something. Is this how Ravenlof really is? So unpleasant for players? Or was it just bad DMing? Are domain lords more powerful thatn gods? They penetrate immunities and the rest whith no saving throw? They can spontaneously cast so imba powerful spells like anihilation?
I mean try to understand me. I didn't want to act as if I am the most uber powerful character that bullies around. I just tried to defend my self. What did I wrong? Why am I whining? Dear lord. I never wanna play in that setting again with that DM cause others told me that it's a really nice setting. Is it? Plz clarify some thing to me. Thanks in advance.
Btw sorry for the long post.
After reading that, I also vote for uninspired DMing! While I do not pretend to hold the truth, and I know there are many styles of Ravenloft DMing, I think your DM has a misconception of what Ravenloft is.
Ravenloft is a dark realm where you should feel oppressed. Imagine ordinary people alone in the forest in a rainy night, finding them in front of a said haunted castle as the only possible place to sleep for the night. You enter the dusty castle but you feel something is watching you...
In Ravenloft, Player character are heroes when they can control their fear and act heroicly.
The commonly said position by Ravenloft DMs is it doesn't really work with epic characters* (or Dark Sun or Planescape characters)!!!
Why? How to make epic characters afraid? Very difficult if impossible!
So unfortunately, your DM tried to humble or scare you with impossibly cheesey acts i.e. it's controling your character into doing cleaning (without the slightest chance to do otherwise), then you can't even harm the petunias surrounding the castle, etc.
Ravenloft has the unfortunate reputation of being a meat grinder for PCs... Most probably because of bad DMing like the exemple you submitted. Your DM should instead bring you back to FR !
So tell me something. Is this how Ravenlof really is? So unpleasant for players? Or was it just bad DMing? Are domain lords more powerful thatn gods? They penetrate immunities and the rest whith no saving throw? They can spontaneously cast so imba powerful spells like anihilation?
No, your DM twisted the rules to scare you, but it became cheesey.
What's funny is that just a few darklords could meet with chances of success epic characters. The rest are low to mid level. What makes them powerful? The deep layered plots surrounding them and their goals.
None of them are god-like bullies with an attitude.
And no, please believe me, Ravenloft is not like that, otherwise we would not play it
(or perhaps with a bunch of maso people).I suggest talking to him and telling him you prefer not to go in RL with epic characters. Or ask him to come here or at the FoS, we'll try to explain the setting into more details.
Regards,
Joël
* except in one online campaign where it is interesting.
Let me explain..
Any DM agreeing to handle a party with two members above lvl 35 and the rest below lvl 10 has already a big can of worms on his hands. I mean, let's get serious here. Even if the low-level PC are all henchmen of the two epic ones (and I wonder what masochist player would want to go through that), what kind of adventure could a DM brew up that would satisfy both the low- AND the high-levels?
Seems your DM remembered reading somewhere that RL was a world where a DM could do as he pleases and the players are reduced to simple spectators. He must have thought it would be the perfect 'equalizer' for such a disparate party.
This isn't true, of course, but it's a stereotype that has been around for a while and just won't die (due to a few DM who never handled RL the way it was supposed to be).
So, basically, you were reduced to NPC status and I can understand your frustration.
RL isn't like that at all. Creepy, yes. Leaving the players frustrated? Sometimes, especially if those players prefer, say, FR's adventures (no offense to FR lovers, these are just two very different settings) but it's supposed to be 'good' frustration (as incredible as it may sounds).
See, RL isn't about powergaming, reaching epic levels or who has the most levels in the coolest PrC. RL is about being placed in an environment where the players will have to use their brains instead of their brawns to win the day.
RL is governed by beings that are far more dangerous and powerful than the average adventuring party (except if said party is of epic level, of course) but half their power is based on reputation, political savvy, or other things that can't be reduced to a saving throw or a skill roll.
In RL, the 'average' commoner is more likely to 'rat' on you to save his family than to help you escape the evil militia of the local lord.
RL is a world where knowing which blacksmith can forge you a cold iron weapon in a hurry can mean the difference between ignominious defeat and narrow victory.
More often than not, you won't have a clear villain to kill in a RL adventure, at least at first. Why? Because uncovering the bad guy is half the adventure!
Of course, it's not every player's dreamworld but it can be very satisfying if you prefer role-playing to 'roll-playing' ;)
Ravenloft is a great campaign world, but it really needs a DM who knows how to be a DM. From your post, and I admit I didn't read the whole description (I stopped after the "your character cleans the house" nonsense), it's clear that your DM would terrible in any D&D setting. Even the Forgotten Realms (which, for the record, I don't think is a bad setting, just an overrated one).
Let’s start with the fact you have a party with two characters level 38 and 35 and the rest around level 7 or 8. Either play epic level gaming with everyone rolling up level 30+ characters or get down to some 7 & 8 ‘th level gaming with everyone at the same level. With that kind of a game in level’s there’s just no way you can have any kind of serious gaming.
Ok now going paragraph by paragraph… The DM says the mist rise around you… Player responds, I run away. DM, No you don’t! Right from the start he’s taking away players abilities to play. The whole fun of roll playing is just that and the challenge of being a good DM is being able to adapt with whatever your players come at you with. Rather then saying the mists rise around you, your DM could have played it that a thick fog rolls in blotting out everything more then a few feet before you. You start to realize you can’t even see your fellow adventurers… THEN as sudden as the fog rolled in, it seems to seep into the ground itself and you find yourself standing in a different land then you were just a mere moment ago.
2nd paragraph… you play in turns soloing???? Leaves most players bored!!! Not the point of hanging out having a group game! If you’re going to solo why get together at all???
4th paragraph… so you just flew down and the DM didn’t have anyone in the village take notice? Then you walk right up to a villager who has no idea who you are or where you came from and they freely talk and give you information without suspicion???
5th paragraph… you are a perfect reason why Ravenloft isn’t made for epic level characters…. You know too many spells. Ravenloft isn’t about super powerful characters kicking butt, it’s about plot and story. Then the whole clean my house foolishness??? I’m not even sure what to say about that one.
From there on it just seemed to have really just gone completely down hill. Now just out of curiosity, how old is your DM?
While sometimes having the party finding themselves helpless or finding that even the most powerful among them is sometimes a part of Ravenloft the way your DM pulled it off shows they clearly don’t know what they are doing (nor does it seem they have a decent storyline to follow). To me the best part of Ravenloft is putting the party in a situation after meeting someone they find to be a horrid monster then finding out their only means of surviving is working with and trusting that person. Fuzzy lines between good and bad guys is what makes the most fun and keeps parties on their toes.
While Ravenloft is oppressive and does it's best to make PC's feel isolated, it does not go to such extreme lengths so that you are utterly helpless. Your character may feel helpless, but there is always something they can do in any situation, even if it is to run away.
Also, th DM said the villagers transformed into Werewolves? Another bad move, in Ravenloft you never tel a player what they are facing, you describe the creature, the smells, senses, etc. but never mention its racial name. Instead of going "the villagers tranforms into werewolf hybrids" it is better to say "The villagers about you appear to distort and slowly shift in form, their bodies elongate, their entire forms shifting and twisting with bone chilling pops and cracks. Fur bursts out of their skin as their heads extend into something more lupine than human, the entire time the change takes place you feel frozen to the spot in surprise with the foul stench of burning flesh flooding into your nose and lungs, leaving a sickly taste in your mouth. As one they took upon you and growl deep in their throats." Or at least something to that effect.
In short, I think your DM needs lessons in DM'ing, especially for Ravenloft (it is the maker or breaker of DM's).
To clarify some things.
That day he was carrying a laptop with him. Btw Lildog he is 20 and a student at the local University. I asked him if he had any books about Ravenloft and he told me that he has all the books form 2e. Thats right that was the answer. All the books form 2e which at that time instead of carrying them he had them in his laptop. Since he started playing 2e like me(I am older than him) I suppose he knows the contents of these 2e Ravenloft books. I also remember that he said that only some technical details are different in these 2e books so he said he could use them.
About hte mixed levels. The two epic characters were originally from another campaign by another DM. That campaign stopped last summer. A looooong(hence the high leves)very fun and memorable campaign. His idea was to create a campaign for the other characters which he did. Me and the other epic character joined later at that campaign, when the other PCs where at these 7 or 8 levels. It was a very nice surprise for us to be able to play again our epic characters. What happened was that he mostly played with the other PCs while me and the other epic PC played a different role in that campaign(FR one). We were all sitting at the same table but let's say these two campaigns were parallel campaigns somehow - different goals in each, different challenges in each. There were a few times that the characters met but mostly for roleplaying reasons and no henchmen and the like stuff.
It was ok while the campaign was still located in FR until...u know the rest. We weren't supposed to be at the same party with the other PCs nor baby sit them or have them as cohorts, just something like a parallel campaign.
That DM is decent - not the best but good enough and above the avarage in my opinion - with the exception of that incident(s) in Ravenloft.
Oh and about the werewolf incident. Well he didn't say "they transform to werewolves". He said that their form changes etc meaning he described that. I just used in my thread the word werewolves for simplicity reasons.
Anyway I hope I will be able to discover the beauty of Ravenlof in other campaign. Thnx for replies again.
P.S. Can I use gate there? Cause I once did and DM said "the spell is not functioning. By the time the gate is formed it is immediately vanquished". Which meant I couldn't escape via gate and actually the only thing that made the others escape from there was a device by a lord(?) whose name was Zahovitch or something like that due to some strange circumstances he used that device to transport the other PCs back to FR.
P.S. Can I use gate there? Cause I once did and DM said "the spell is not functioning. By the time the gate is formed it is immediately vanquished". Which meant I couldn't escape via gate and actually the only thing that made the others escape from there was a device by a lord(?) whose name was Zahovitch or something like that due to some strange circumstances he used that device to transport the other PCs back to FR.
Nope. Simply put, RL is a "jail plane". Easy to enter, damn hard to exit. There are ways but none of them are easy and almost all of them are usually the end result of a long quest. 'Transportation' spells don't work if the intended goal is to leave for another plane, period.
Well, unless you happen to have a major artifact with you...
What the others said. It isn't Ravenloft's fault, your DM sucks.
...
Ravenloft is a great campaign world, but it really needs a DM who knows how to be a DM. ...
Reminds me a bit of my first try to DM a group... ;)
*I was 11 then...*
I think RL is, like Greyhawk, a very difficult setting to master for unexperienced people... Most DMs don't do their *homework* too well, because they think that can *just sit down by the table, roll their dices and start*.
But with RL, you better have a concept for your adventures or you better stop DMing...
Nope. Simply put, RL is a "jail plane". Easy to enter, damn hard to exit.
Staying on topic, sort of, how do you enter Ravenloft? There's the Mists, obviously, but you can't exactly call them reliable. Other than that, I can only think of the Obsidian Gate and random conjunctions.
Staying on topic, sort of, how do you enter Ravenloft? There's the Mists, obviously, but you can't exactly call them reliable. Other than that, I can only think of the Obsidian Gate and random conjunctions.
The mists are indeed unreliable, but are the most common method of entering the demiplane. There are a few permanent one-way portals on some worlds, which were detailed in the original "black box" campaign setting, as well as a few other products. I had to compile a list of them recently, so I can list them for you:
Greyhawk: There are at least three permanent portals on Oerth. The first is believed to be somewhere in Ulek. Just below the summit of the Lortmil mountains lies an alcove cut into the rock, containing a misty opening. This opening is allegedly the portal to Ravenloft. The second portal on Oerth is rumored to lie deep within the dungeons of the ruined Castle Greyhawk, constructed by the mad archmage Zagyg many years ago. Supposedly this portal is one of the many traps Zagyg made to keep intruders from looting his fortress (this is in WGR1 Greyhawk Ruins in room P824). Finally, in the far west, in the Dry Steppes near the salt lake of Udrukankar, the ancient Bakluni Stone Circles, called Tovag Baragu, are infamous for their ability to connect to other planes and planets. The wizards of the Circle of Eight, along with the unlikely assistance of the evil demigod Iuz, once forced the lich-turned-demigod Vecna through Tovag Baragu’s portals and into Ravenloft (this is the good ending to the module Vecna Lives!).
Dragonlance: Krynn is believed to have two portals. On the continent of Taladas, where the Steamwall Mountains meet Blackwater Glade, lies a cave. Inside this cave is a mist-filled doorway, magical and glowing. The other portal is in Ansalon, in the wilderness near the ruins of Xak Tsaroth. Any details of this portals operation or precise location have been lost over the years.
Forgotten Realms: Toril is also believed to have a least two portals. The first is on the continent of Faerun, in the Greycloak Hills, on the western edge of the Anauroch desert. According to rumor, a pit somewhere in these hills leads to Ravenloft. The second is in the eastern realms of Kara-Tur. There is a small nameless island east of the main continent and south of Wa. In the morning following a new moon, a mist rolls in from the sea and gently laps at the island’s shore. Anyone standing in the surf is transported to Ravenloft. Also, I believe there's some way to get into Ravenloft through Castle Spulzeer (I've never read the module, though, so I'm not sure...I just know it was the first part of a two-part crossover with Ravenloft).
Planescape: I'm pretty sure it would be feasible to have at least one of Sigil's many doors be a portal into Ravenloft.
Birthright: The Ravenloft accessory Children of the Night: Ghosts describes Sir Marcus Malvoy, a haunted spirit that chased a monster into a cave located near his family's estate in the Anurien Empire. His cowardice ended up betraying his companions and ultimately doomed him, but not before he crossed over from Cerilia into Ravenloft, where his spirit is now trapped.
Still, it's far easier to use the mists for most situations.
There is no way anyone in Ravenloft (CR25 or so at the highest) is going to slap around an epic level character that easily.
That was just bad DMing. Really bad. Good DMs seldom if ever take away that much player control. Every DM does it occasionally but that was downright nasty. Plus the lack of saving throws was just silly. He obviously wanted to humiliate you and did a painfully annoying job of it.
.. or he just didn't know what to do to handle epic characters but was too proud to admit it.
It wouldn't be the first time a DM allowed someone to 'bring in' a character from another campaign and then realized (albeit too late) that he just opened Pandora's Box. A DM in that kind of nasty situation often does stupid things in order to correct his mistake rather than admit he made one.
Dragonlance: Krynn is believed to have two portals. On the continent of Taladas, where the Steamwall Mountains meet Blackwater Glade, lies a cave. Inside this cave is a mist-filled doorway, magical and glowing.
Where did you get that info from? *Could be interesting, as my current campaign is supposed to end up in the Steamwall Mts and my players have demanded a *slightly* darker setting...*
What could be darker than MY Thenol...?Where did you get that info from? *Could be interesting, as my current campaign is supposed to end up in the Steamwall Mts and my players have demanded a *slightly* darker setting...*
As he pointed out, "in the original black box" (aka the Realm of Terror boxed set)
Ravenloft is not a place where the DM can make your PC an NPC at will and crush him like a toy. (If that's what the DM wants to do, he can do it in any campaign world. There's always a bigger fish.) It IS a place where evil is stronger than most places and good is, if not weaker, at least less prevalent and more restrained. The PC's usually face overwhelming odds and take solace in whatever small victories they can muster. Epic Heroes from other worlds usually aren't used to that, but that doesn't mean the DM has to pull out the plot hammer and crush them with it.
The point I'm trying to get at is that Ravenloft is supposed to be a scary place, but it's still supposed to be fun. Like a good horror movie or roller coaster, the enjoyment comes from indulging in the scares while you're actually perfectly safe. So while it's absolutely in character for a FR character who knows what the mists to try to run in fear from them, the player should be prepared for some fun horror roleplaying and go with it, rather than throwing in their character sheet. And the DM should return the favor by keeping the game fun and not using the increased power of evil in the setting to indulge his whims. Every DM has the ability to say "a rock falls on your head, you die," but no player likes to play in that kind of game.
As he pointed out, "in the original black box" (aka the Realm of Terror boxed set)
Thank you! Starting with 3e Ravenloft, such info is not so easy to get for me...*Brrrr that's creepy - I am doing my Taladas campaign for over a year now and it appears that I don't know important facts about my setting...* :fight!: I am still a DM rookie... or so it seems... ;)
I am doing my Taladas campaign for over a year now and it appears that I don't know important facts about my setting...
That's okay, that's what messageboards like this are for. ;)
Don't know about something? Then create a thread and probe the Ravenloft community and in-between the good and the bad, the canon and the non-canon, you'll get what you need.
Beautiful concept in that brainstorm kinda way.
I think sometimes that I get more information from people like you, on boards like this, than I do from the books themselves. It's just tough sometimes balancing, juggling really, the gentle and aggressive ways of gathering the information you need. By "aggressive", I mean sometimes you have to outright challenge people (through concepts) to get their full take on any given concept. Billows to the fire kinda thing. Of course, the chances of that backfiring is quite high.
But as they say, play with fire...
The mists are indeed unreliable, but are the most common method of entering the demiplane. There are a few permanent one-way portals on some worlds, which were detailed in the original "black box" campaign setting, as well as a few other products. I had to compile a list of them recently, so I can list them for you.
Thanks for the list, it's interesting to see that there are actually some portals to Ravenloft. Of course the Mists are the most common way of getting in, but on the off chance that someone would actually want to get in, it's no good waiting for them to make an appearance.
.Here we can marvellously exchange ideas. Because, after all, every campaign is singular and depends solely on the DM's view of the setting and so every uses different material, motives and hints...