- The "Known World" was the original name for the world, before it became Mystara, and therefore refers to the entire setting.
- The "Known World" refers to the world as it is known to the people who live in a certain area, i.e. southwestern Brun and the surrounding areas.
I know this issue has come up before, because I remember that "Old World" was coined by those who believe in point number 2. But I wonder if there is a consensus on this issue?
Personally, I never liked the idea of point number 2. Mystara went without a name for so long that The Known World became a name for me that lost all actual meaning. Therefore, not only do I see no need to change the name due to the meaning not fitting anymore, but in fact I am averse to changing the name at all - in the same way that I'm sure many people would be averse to changing the name from Mystara to something else, now that we're all used to it.
The interesting point is that "The Known World" persisted even after the introduction of the Mystara moniker, and indeed the Hollow World. The latter resulted in a new name system which we still have today, where Mystara is the overall name of two worlds, the Outer World and the Hollow World, and numerous campaign settings, including the Known World, the Savage Coast, and so on.
In any case, those who created the name "Old World" deftly sidestepped another issue facing us, which is: what exactly is the Known World? What regions does it encompass?
The simple answer would seem to be that the Known World means the Gazetteer nations, generally considered to be the southeastern point of Brun. But even this simple idea causes problems: are Heldann, Wendar and Sind part of the Known World? We know that all three were considered for Gazetteers, and Heldann practically has its own Gazetteer if you add all Bruce Heard's articles from the Vaults together. What about Dawn of the Emperors? It's definitely part of the Gazetteer series, and Thyatis is without a doubt part of the Known World. But the Isle of Dawn, Alphatia and the rest of the Alphatian Empire are a different matter. Should they be included, or are they their own region? What about Norwold?
Even changing the name to Old World didn't so much solve these problems as step round them, by creating a new system of regional names.
Another thing to think about is when and where exactly did the name "Known World" originate? I can't remember offhand if it was mentioned in the original Expert Set descriptions, but I do know that the map was not in fact labelled "The Known World", but rather "The Lands and Environs of the D&D Wilderness".
These early maps can provide us with another piece of evidence too. Originally the world was divided up into single or double page 24 mile per hex map blocks. In addition to the Expert Set/X1's map, there were originally about five or six other regions: The Great Waste, encompassing the Sind Desert; The Wild Lands, encompassing the Serpent Peninsula; Hule; The Savage Coast; and Norwold. These were marked on the Companion set map, and appeared again in a more developed form in a module, I think it was X10. (I can't remember offhand how the Isle of Dawn and Alphatia were featured - if at all. Of course the Isle of Dawn got its own 24 mile per hex map sheet in the Master series modules.)
It's possible that the Known World referred to the Expert Set map, but I'm not entirely sure at this point.
Please share your opinions and any more evidence you have on this subject!
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=331346
I also side with option no. 2. It seems to me that the Rules Cyclopedia differentiates between the Known World and the World of Mystara. They also have different maps. Heldann, by the way, is considered by the RC to be a KW nation, as is Alphatia, Norwold, the Thanegioth Archipelago (I always wondered: it's supposed to be a "lost world" area. How can it be "known"?) and the Isle of Dawn.
For me, the KW consists of all GAZ nations (including Thyatian and Alphatian colonies outside Brun - such as the Hinterlands) plus Heldann.
I'm not sure about Wendar and Sind.
By the way, I wasn't saying that we should revert back to calling Mystara the Known World, but that I'd prefer to keep the term part of the setting, and not replace it with another term. Doing so brings up questions, though, and it seems there really aren't any solid answers.
From a pure mapmaking point of view, including the whole Alphatian Empire, all the way over to the Esterhold Peninsula on Skothar, is probably not very useful. The whole region did fit on a 72 mile per hex area in the Dawn of the Emperors map, though...
Still, I can't quite see the logic of including Esterhold but not Wendar or Sind. Yes, many Alphatians will probably know about Esterhold because it's part of their empire, but Sind and Wendar are so much closer.
In the end, it probably comes down to how much will fit on a map sheet at 8, 24 and 72 miles per hex. That's going to be the deciding factor for me, I think.
I personally tend to consider these nations as part of the Known World: Thyatis, Minrothad, Ierendi, Karameikos, Five Shires, Atruaghin, Ylaruam, Darokin, Rockhome, Soderfjord, Ostland, Vestland, Ethengar, Broken Lands, Glantri.
Heldann, Wendar and Denagoth should instead be considered part of Norwold (lower Norwold if you like it), also given the fact they never had any significant influence or relationship with the nations of the aforementioned Known World AND since they are separated by a high mountain chain from the northern nations of the KW (Glantri, Ethengar and Vestland).
With later editions of Mystara (especially net almanacs) some of these have become part of the KW (Wendar, Heldann and even Sind), but I wouldn't be so bold to include them...
As for the rest of the world, it can be likewise divided into "regional areas", like say Norwold, "Sea of Dawn" (comprises Isle of Dawn, Alatians, Ochalea and Pearl Islands), Alphatia (continent + Yanifey Chain), Bellissaria (continent), Great Waste (comprises Sind, Great Waste and Plain of Fire), Serpent Peninsula (Yavdlom & Ulimwengu), Hule (Hule and city-states), Savage Coast, Arm of the Immortals, etc...
If you wanna stick to old set, the KW doesn't show the Isle of Dawn, Wendar, Sind or Norwold. I don't really get what's the true pourpose of your point Thorf, but if you have doubts on the boundaries of your map, well, my advice is: make smaller scale maps, and make more maps. This way the level of detail is greater. I see no point in having a map with the IoD and Sind at both ends, since the PCs will prolly never be interested in those ends if they live in the middle of the KW. And if needs and curiosity arises, then the map can be expanded, adding a sense of wonder to the other lands outside the KW boundaries (who need to be pourposefully not too broad).
Heldann, Wendar and Denagoth should instead be considered part of Norwold (lower Norwold if you like it), also given the fact they never had any significant influence or relationship with the nations of the aforementioned Known World AND since they are separated by a high mountain chain from the northern nations of the KW (Glantri, Ethengar and Vestland).
While I agree about Wendar and Denagoth - Heldann did have an influence at least on Ethengar, and it plays a major role in the Ethengar GAZ. Besides, as I said, it is part of the KW map in the Rules Cyclopedia. So, as far as I am concerned, Heldann's in.
Regardless, the "Known World" notation would show up on many maps, mostly of the Gazeteer nations since that was the area being explored at the time the term was in fashion, but ocassionally far-ranging explorers would make maps of Sind, Norwald, even the Thanegioth Archipelago with the land marked "Known World". The practice died out eventually, and people looking at ancient maps mistook the ritual meaning for a notation that this was part of an area called the Known World. Because there are so many different maps, there's no agreement in-game on what the exact extents of the Known World are (their arguments are much the same as ours).
The term tends to be used as a shorthand by scholars to refer roughly to the Gazeteer area, though they use the phrasing "the area once called the Known World", and by merchants to refer to the home stretch of their trade routes (which explains why despite the trade with Sind and Slagovich, they're not considered part of the Known World - they're the foreign partner in the trade route, and the Known World is the local side).
The term oviously isn't used at all by people outside the area, except for scholars who picked up the term in communication with their Known World counterparts. (Scholars are more likely to be thinking in terms of map labels than "the world that is currently known to me", so would have less problems calling an area that's nowhere near their home "the Known World".) Other countries each have their own names for the area of southwest Brun - Alphatia tends to think of it as an extention of Thyatis, while Heldann and Norwald (and even Ethangar and the Northern Reaches) call it the Southlands. The Savage Coast (Red Steel version) calls it the Old World because it's the source of settlers. Haven't really thought about what Sind, Hule or Slagovich would call it.
South of the Mengul and Wendarian Range (thus, including Heldann), west to the Adri Varma Plateau and points south (thus, the plateaun itself is not in the Known World), east of the central Khurish Massif (including all of Glantri but none of the mountainous territories of Sind), along the western Darokin border, where Darokin meets Sind, and along the western border of the Atruaghin Territories, where the Plains of Sind begin (thus, not including any of Sind itself).
The attendant islands include the Ostland Isles and the isles of Ierendi, Minrothad, and Thyatis (not including possessions on the Isle of Dawn, Ochalea, or the Pearl Islands).
In-game, this is the Known World according to the residents of Darokin, and is the default when anyone mentions the Known World. The Known World according to the Thyatians is expanded to include Ochalea, Nuar, and the Isle of Dawn; as far as Thyatians are concerned, the East begins where the Known World ends on the IoD. Oceansend is included in this, but only marginally; no other part of Norwold is included in the Thyatian estimation of the Known World, as they really don't know tha tmuch about it, in general.
Personally, once the name Mystara was applied to the Known World, I adopted it without reservation. I've never understood some folk's problems with the name. It's a cool name. Better than "The Forgotten Realms" or "Eberron" by far, say I. YMMV.
The Known World is the section of the World of Mystara that is 'known' to the inhabitants of its most civilized members. This is a subjective and somewhat condescending term, that would be used in Mystara in a similar way to how we use RW terms like "the West" or "the Third World", etc.
The nations that make up this area is somewhat vague due to the subjective nature of the term, but generally make up the south-east quarter of the continent of Brun and many of the surrounding islands and sub-continents. It's similar to RW Europe in terms of size, divirsity of cultures, and historical importance.
In the strictest sense, it probably includes, Karameikos, mainland Thyatis, the Shires, Glantri, Darokin, Alfhiem, Rockhome, Ylaruam, Ierendi, Minrothad, Ostland, Vestland, Soderfjord, the Broken Lands, and Ethengar.
In the more liberal sense, it could proably also include Atruaghin, Sind, Heldann, Wendar, outlying portions of Thyatis such as the Pearl Islands and Ochalea, the Isle of Dawn, and even Alphatia and Bellisaria.
Known World nations are definitely attempting to expand. Eventually such places as the Thanegioth Archepelago, the Davanian Hinterlands, Norwald, and Alphatian Skothar may become parts of the greater Known World as they become further settled by and incorporated into Known World nations.
R.A.
Personally, once the name Mystara was applied to the Known World, I adopted it without reservation. I've never understood some folk's problems with the name. It's a cool name. Better than "The Forgotten Realms" or "Eberron" by far, say I. YMMV.
What can I say... I just don't like. It's just kind of... poofy. To me, it just screams "for little kids!"
Another problem is that it doesn't really have anything to do with the setting.
Greyhawk is the setting's biggest city.
Blackmoor is the most important kingdom in the setting.
Ravenloft is the little town where it all began.
Dragonlance is the most important weapon in the setting.
etc.
The Forgotten Realms is a bad name for the same reason. However, it just doesn't sound as dorky. Besides, characters within FR don't refer to their world as such (or at least didn't the last time I paid any attention, which was about 15 years ago).
All that said, when cataloguing the litany of mistakes TSR made with the setting, naming it "Mystara" ends up pretty far down the list.
R.A.
So in a way, the term is used in-game (at least IMC of course) as a combination of knowledge of the region and the attitude of people towards that region. Knowing of the land does not make it part of "the Known World". The Hinterlands are not included in the Known World; it is merely a resource colony that is still predominately unexplored and untamed.
Even the Isle of Dawn IMC is not considered part of the Known World by many; Thyatians and Darokinians excluded. Most of the nations merely see it as dotted with colonies, wild and uncivilized, used for political and military advantage.
I like what Joe said about how it was the mappers that first "defined" the Known World. And to Mystaros, I agree Mystara is a cool name, better than many campaign settings. One question though, what is YMMV?
One question though, what is YMMV?
It's Netspeak for "Your Mileage May Vary"
It's Netspeak for "Your Mileage May Vary"
Thanks; haven't seen that one before!
Heldann did have an influence at least on Ethengar, and it plays a major role in the Ethengar GAZ. Besides, as I said, it is part of the KW map in the Rules Cyclopedia. So, as far as I am concerned, Heldann's in.
I'll second that. If one were to develop a definition of the Known World circa AC 950, for example, then I would agree with DM, and not include the Heldann Freeholds, because at that time it was a country in name only; it was populated by scattered clans with no real unity or government, and its "capital" of Haldisvall was hardly larger than any other settlement.
However, if one were to fast forward to AC 1000, with the region under the rule of the Heldannic Order for almost 50 years, then I would say Heldann *is* past of the Known World, due in large part to the fact that the Heldannic Knights ordered the realm (for good or ill), turned Haldisvall (now Freiburg) into a large and prosperous city, built roads, and otherwise gave the region the trappings of what can be considered a unified nation.
The other important factor is that Freiburg became a trading destination, not only for the Northern Reaches nations, but also certainly for Thyatis, and those trading connections would, at the very least, have made Freiburg known to southern traders.
Geoff
It's Netspeak for "Your Mileage May Vary"
Very well. But what does this expression mean?
Very well. But what does this expression mean?
It's based off of how far (in miles, hence mileage) you can get in a vehicle (for example) on a tank of fuel. Depending on how you drive, where you drive, what kind of fuel, at what speed, what kind of engine, etc, how far you can go varies.
The expression as used by Mystaros means that depending on how you use the term Mystara, how much you get from it will differ. If you put the peanut butter on really thick you won't be able to spread it on as many slices of bread! How far the peanut butter goes varies on how you use it, thus "your mileage may vary".
Hope that explains it.
The core of the Known World are Gazs 1-12+ the Freeholds. Surrounding that is the fringe a boderland composed of Sind, Atruaghin, Wendar (maybe Denagoth). Lands distant in both trade and/or culture from the core but still on this side of the wilds. The Freeholds were once part of the fringe before the Knights took them over and became more involved in the rest of the Known World.
For a citizen of the Known World the term is a generic way of refering to their part of the world somewhat simmilar to the way the term was used in the middle ages. It just stuck after some so much usage. For many the Known World is the center of civilization. Sure there are a few patches of wild lands, like Malpheggi or the Broken lands, but civilzed lands are in the overwhelming majority. You can find a place to trade your goods and a travern spend the profits. Even a boderland like Sind, with it's weird customs, understands the value of trade and the concept .
Beyond the Known World are inhospitalbe, barren wastes and wilderness. A place filled with ignorant savages and horrible monsters, where only the strong, foolhardy, or desperate go.
Beyond the Known World are inhospitalbe, barren wastes and wilderness. A place filled with ignorant savages and horrible monsters, where only the strong, foolhardy, or desperate go.
That makes for a pretty limited world, though. There's only so many hexes of "bare jungle" you can take before it gets monotonous. (The old Savage Coast module had that problem - "Cool! They're finally describing the rest of the continent! What's there? ... Oh. Nothing. Nevermind." I much prefer the Red Steel version, although the political situation wrt the Known World is a bit weird.)