Throwing Sap... - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Throwing Sap...

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Mar 01, 2005 18:25:36 Hello,

I know I am beating a dead horse but my DS game is sill going on and I was wondering if posible from any of you OTHER Darksun fans out there know of a way to depower the Throwing Sap until the OFFICIAL rules for the updated throwing sap come into place. I am faced with a HUGE problem that I am trying to nerf.

The throwing sap is in the DS 3.5 handbook located online in the equipment section. In the hands of a normal medium sized character the weapon is a well-balanced weapon not unlike the spiked chain with maybe a little bit of extra bonus's. But in the hands of a Half-giant hold a throwing sap suited to his size it is a very deadly weapon doing 3d6+str points of damage with a prone ability. The damage usually comes to about 30 something every hit, and with the added reach of a Half-giant and the use of this weapon as a reach weapon with no range increment limitation (Can still be used if the person is in base to base with the user) it can be a deadly weapon.

The Half-gaint is now lvl 7 and is a Brute character with a 28 strength and when RAGED he has a 32 strength making him godly. Combined with the fact that he has power attack, cleave, and Great Cleave he is a 50' running, 68 HP, sandbag throwing killing machine. I can only throw psionics out against him so many times before it starts getting repetative, so I was wondering what OTHER DM's have done/would do about this situation. I am just looking to figure a way to depower this item without taking it away from the player. But I am left with hardly any other choice on the matter.

Any help such as down grading the damage, to reducing the abilities of the range, or having a wear and tear of the item. Anything. Let me know.

-introneurotic
#2
Pennarin
Mar 01, 2005 18:50:43 Here is what we got last I checked.

Sap, Mekillot: The mekillot sap is a soft but tough large leather bag
filled with fine gravel or sand, stitched together with giant's hair,
and tied to the end of a 5-foot rope. The mekillot sap is swung
overhead with both hands.
A mekillot sap has reach, so you can strike opponents 10 feet
away with it. In addition, unlike most other weapons with reach, it
can be used against an adjacent foe.
You can make trip attacks with the sap. If you are tripped during your
own trip attempt, you can drop the sap to avoid being tripped.

Two-Handed Melee Weapon
Sap, Mekillot (4) 25 Cp 1d8 (3) 1d10 (3) x2 — 30 lb. Bludgeoning
(3) The weapon deals nonlethal damage rather than lethal damage.
(4) Reach weapon
#3
jon_oracle_of_athas
Mar 02, 2005 1:29:49 Also, the original write up of the throwing sap was never intended to be used as a melee weapon, but a huge sandbag you spin around to build momentum and release/throw at an opponent, ideal for half-giant guards to stop offenders from running. So you would only be able to make one such attack per round. The new mekillot sap has smoother mechanics though, and is a melee weapon.
#4
superpriest
Mar 02, 2005 9:18:23 And the new version is what Pennarin posted? Because it looks like the Medium damage is 1d10, which is better than the Spiked Chain. And why would you make a weapon better than the spiked chain?
#5
Pennarin
Mar 02, 2005 10:43:48 Why? For FUN!!

Er, no, really, this is just a draft. I searched for better stats in my email stack but these are the best ones I've got.

The version I posted is a step in the right direction, so if you want to include the sap in your game or a written adventure, and need to know of its capabilities, then you got a preview.
#6
dawnstealer
Mar 02, 2005 10:49:28 Also, I'm pretty sure the spiked chain is physical damage.
#7
superpriest
Mar 02, 2005 12:08:05 It sounds like you want an easy rules conversion without sticking to earlier concepts of the weapon. Sounds fine; base it on the spiked chain. But PLEASE make the damage no greater than 2d4. If you do, well... you're making an overpowered weapon.

Dawnstealer, if you're saying that the nonlethal damage means this weapon can do more damage, I think that's a mistake. Look at the regular sap. It's martial, but it deals 1d6 damage with a x2 critical. Because its feature is nonlethal damage. Also, with the merciful weapon property, you are paying for nonlethal damage. Nonlethal damage is a good ability, not a drawback.
#8
dawnstealer
Mar 02, 2005 12:14:16 No, I tend to agree that it's an overpowered weapon.

On the other hand, it is a weapon wielded by half-giants to subdue people, so it would make sense that it's overpowered. I do think that 2d4 makes more sense.
#9
zombiegleemax
Mar 02, 2005 12:26:39 >On the other hand, it is a weapon wielded by half-giants to subdue people, so it would make sense that it's overpowered. I do think that 2d4 makes more sense.

But the only question I have with that damage is, is that the damage increment used for Half-giants? I do agree the damage should be reduced.
-introneurotic
#10
superpriest
Mar 02, 2005 13:26:28
On the other hand, it is a weapon wielded by half-giants to subdue people, so it would make sense that it's overpowered.

That's no reason to do anything. We are trying to balance a weapon.

You can have a weapon on the high end of balance, like the spiked chain, but you shouldn't go over.
#11
Pennarin
Mar 02, 2005 13:49:20 Unlike the spiked chain, the throwing sap, now mekillot sap, does not confer a bonus to combat manouvers (trip attempts in this case), so the weapon can have a higher dice for damage.

If the same damage as the spiked chain is kept (1d6/2d4), then this is an inferior weapon compared to it. Which is fine too. It doesn't need to match.

To think of it, why not.
#12
superpriest
Mar 02, 2005 13:58:27
Unlike the spiked chain, the throwing sap, now mekillot sap, does not confer a bonus to combat manouvers (trip attempts in this case), so the weapon can have a higher dice for damage.

No, it has the same ability to trip; it merely lacks the disarm bonus, which is not as good as extra damage.
If the same damage as the spiked chain is kept (1d6/2d4), then this is an inferior weapon compared to it. Which is fine too. It doesn't need to match.

To think of it, why not.

Yes, it is fine to have it slightly inferior. Now you're talking.
#13
jon_oracle_of_athas
Mar 02, 2005 18:18:41 The mekillot sap damage should be 2d4 or 1d8.
#14
zombiegleemax
Mar 02, 2005 18:22:09 >Also, the original write up of the throwing sap was never intended to be used as a melee weapon, but a huge sandbag you spin around to build momentum and release/throw at an opponent, ideal for half-giant guards to stop offenders from running. So you would only be able to make one such attack per round. The new mekillot sap has smoother mechanics though, and is a melee weapon.

Its not even the fact that I am worried about how many attacks half-giants get with this weapon. What I AM concerned with is the fact of how many ATTACKS OF OPPORTUNITY a half-giant character gets with this weapon. I mean, unless the character the half-giant is facing has AMAZING strength equaling the half-giant character using this weapon the monster/mob/npc entering the half-giants threatened range will not even be able to stand up (assuming he survives) much less attack him.

The reason I am so concerned about this is once a mob has entered a half-giants threatened area with this weapon he can be subjected to attacks of opportunity. Since a HG is a large target with a 10' reach + adding the fact that this is a reach weapon with NO range limits in regards to where it can be used in his threatened area, he can pretty much make sure that NOTHING will get any closer to him then 15'. Since any creature who moves 5' at a time towards the half-giant will still get attacks of opportunity against him/her, and once you are hit with that weapon the person falls prone. And once a person tries to get up from prone it results in ANOTHER attack of opportunity from trying to get up from prone. Since the DC strength check of the old "throwing sap" would be so ungodly high for anyone to try and beat the DC of that the HG player would be assured NOTHING would get close to him or anyone.

It just seems that this item either should be reduced to a ranged weapon like a javelin or spear so as to be "thrown" out of a characters hand. So that the item would not be used repeatedly over and over.

-introneurotic
#15
Pennarin
Mar 02, 2005 19:55:22 Page 112-113 of PHB states that reach weapons wielded by a Medium character double the wielder's natural reach, making it 10 feet. Also, reach weapons cannot attack creatures in an adjacent square, meaning 5 feet away or less.

The mekillot sap can strike at adjacent foes. Unlike other reach weapons, you don't slach a cord/chain at them, or use the tip of your hafted weapon, but you spin a sap and release the cord linked to it. You control the lenght of the cord like in a fishing cane, so you can strike adjacent foes.

So the entry would now read:

Sap, Mekillot: The mekillot sap is a soft but tough large leather bag filled with fine gravel or sand, stitched together with giant's hair,
and tied to the end of a 5-foot rope. The mekillot sap is swung overhead with both hands.
A mekillot sap has reach, so you can strike opponents 10 feet away with it. In addition, unlike most other weapons with reach, it can be used against an adjacent foe.
Using a mekillot sap provokes an attack of opportunity, just as if you had used a ranged weapon.
You can make trip attacks with the sap. If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the sap to avoid being tripped.

Exotic Weapon
Two-Handed Melee Weapon
Sap, Mekillot (4) 25 Cp 1d6 (3) 2d4 (3) x2 — 30 lb. Bludgeoning
(3) The weapon deals nonlethal damage rather than lethal damage.
(4) Reach weapon

#16
superpriest
Mar 02, 2005 20:18:50 For the Half-Giant and attacks of opportunity, well, the giant's going to have awesome attacks no matter what reach weapon he uses. And the tripping isn't broken any more.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Mar 01, 2005 18:25:36	Hello, I know I am beating a dead horse but my DS game is sill going on and I was wondering if posible from any of you OTHER Darksun fans out there know of a way to depower the Throwing Sap until the OFFICIAL rules for the updated throwing sap come into place. I am faced with a HUGE problem that I am trying to nerf. The throwing sap is in the DS 3.5 handbook located online in the equipment section. In the hands of a normal medium sized character the weapon is a well-balanced weapon not unlike the spiked chain with maybe a little bit of extra bonus's. But in the hands of a Half-giant hold a throwing sap suited to his size it is a very deadly weapon doing 3d6+str points of damage with a prone ability. The damage usually comes to about 30 something every hit, and with the added reach of a Half-giant and the use of this weapon as a reach weapon with no range increment limitation (Can still be used if the person is in base to base with the user) it can be a deadly weapon. The Half-gaint is now lvl 7 and is a Brute character with a 28 strength and when RAGED he has a 32 strength making him godly. Combined with the fact that he has power attack, cleave, and Great Cleave he is a 50' running, 68 HP, sandbag throwing killing machine. I can only throw psionics out against him so many times before it starts getting repetative, so I was wondering what OTHER DM's have done/would do about this situation. I am just looking to figure a way to depower this item without taking it away from the player. But I am left with hardly any other choice on the matter. Any help such as down grading the damage, to reducing the abilities of the range, or having a wear and tear of the item. Anything. Let me know. -introneurotic
#2 Pennarin Mar 01, 2005 18:50:43	Here is what we got last I checked. Sap, Mekillot: The mekillot sap is a soft but tough large leather bag filled with fine gravel or sand, stitched together with giant's hair, and tied to the end of a 5-foot rope. The mekillot sap is swung overhead with both hands. A mekillot sap has reach, so you can strike opponents 10 feet away with it. In addition, unlike most other weapons with reach, it can be used against an adjacent foe. You can make trip attacks with the sap. If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the sap to avoid being tripped. Two-Handed Melee Weapon Sap, Mekillot (4) 25 Cp 1d8 (3) 1d10 (3) x2 — 30 lb. Bludgeoning (3) The weapon deals nonlethal damage rather than lethal damage. (4) Reach weapon
#3 jon_oracle_of_athas Mar 02, 2005 1:29:49	Also, the original write up of the throwing sap was never intended to be used as a melee weapon, but a huge sandbag you spin around to build momentum and release/throw at an opponent, ideal for half-giant guards to stop offenders from running. So you would only be able to make one such attack per round. The new mekillot sap has smoother mechanics though, and is a melee weapon.
#4 superpriest Mar 02, 2005 9:18:23	And the new version is what Pennarin posted? Because it looks like the Medium damage is 1d10, which is better than the Spiked Chain. And why would you make a weapon better than the spiked chain?
#5 Pennarin Mar 02, 2005 10:43:48	Why? For FUN!! Er, no, really, this is just a draft. I searched for better stats in my email stack but these are the best ones I've got. The version I posted is a step in the right direction, so if you want to include the sap in your game or a written adventure, and need to know of its capabilities, then you got a preview.
#6 dawnstealer Mar 02, 2005 10:49:28	Also, I'm pretty sure the spiked chain is physical damage.
#7 superpriest Mar 02, 2005 12:08:05	It sounds like you want an easy rules conversion without sticking to earlier concepts of the weapon. Sounds fine; base it on the spiked chain. But PLEASE make the damage no greater than 2d4. If you do, well... you're making an overpowered weapon. Dawnstealer, if you're saying that the nonlethal damage means this weapon can do more damage, I think that's a mistake. Look at the regular sap. It's martial, but it deals 1d6 damage with a x2 critical. Because its feature is nonlethal damage. Also, with the merciful weapon property, you are paying for nonlethal damage. Nonlethal damage is a good ability, not a drawback.
#8 dawnstealer Mar 02, 2005 12:14:16	No, I tend to agree that it's an overpowered weapon. On the other hand, it is a weapon wielded by half-giants to subdue people, so it would make sense that it's overpowered. I do think that 2d4 makes more sense.
#9 zombiegleemax Mar 02, 2005 12:26:39	>On the other hand, it is a weapon wielded by half-giants to subdue people, so it would make sense that it's overpowered. I do think that 2d4 makes more sense. But the only question I have with that damage is, is that the damage increment used for Half-giants? I do agree the damage should be reduced. -introneurotic
#10 superpriest Mar 02, 2005 13:26:28	On the other hand, it is a weapon wielded by half-giants to subdue people, so it would make sense that it's overpowered. That's no reason to do anything. We are trying to balance a weapon. You can have a weapon on the high end of balance, like the spiked chain, but you shouldn't go over.
#11 Pennarin Mar 02, 2005 13:49:20	Unlike the spiked chain, the throwing sap, now mekillot sap, does not confer a bonus to combat manouvers (trip attempts in this case), so the weapon can have a higher dice for damage. If the same damage as the spiked chain is kept (1d6/2d4), then this is an inferior weapon compared to it. Which is fine too. It doesn't need to match. To think of it, why not.
#12 superpriest Mar 02, 2005 13:58:27	Unlike the spiked chain, the throwing sap, now mekillot sap, does not confer a bonus to combat manouvers (trip attempts in this case), so the weapon can have a higher dice for damage. No, it has the same ability to trip; it merely lacks the disarm bonus, which is not as good as extra damage. If the same damage as the spiked chain is kept (1d6/2d4), then this is an inferior weapon compared to it. Which is fine too. It doesn't need to match. To think of it, why not. Yes, it is fine to have it slightly inferior. Now you're talking.
#13 jon_oracle_of_athas Mar 02, 2005 18:18:41	The mekillot sap damage should be 2d4 or 1d8.
#14 zombiegleemax Mar 02, 2005 18:22:09	>Also, the original write up of the throwing sap was never intended to be used as a melee weapon, but a huge sandbag you spin around to build momentum and release/throw at an opponent, ideal for half-giant guards to stop offenders from running. So you would only be able to make one such attack per round. The new mekillot sap has smoother mechanics though, and is a melee weapon. Its not even the fact that I am worried about how many attacks half-giants get with this weapon. What I AM concerned with is the fact of how many ATTACKS OF OPPORTUNITY a half-giant character gets with this weapon. I mean, unless the character the half-giant is facing has AMAZING strength equaling the half-giant character using this weapon the monster/mob/npc entering the half-giants threatened range will not even be able to stand up (assuming he survives) much less attack him. The reason I am so concerned about this is once a mob has entered a half-giants threatened area with this weapon he can be subjected to attacks of opportunity. Since a HG is a large target with a 10' reach + adding the fact that this is a reach weapon with NO range limits in regards to where it can be used in his threatened area, he can pretty much make sure that NOTHING will get any closer to him then 15'. Since any creature who moves 5' at a time towards the half-giant will still get attacks of opportunity against him/her, and once you are hit with that weapon the person falls prone. And once a person tries to get up from prone it results in ANOTHER attack of opportunity from trying to get up from prone. Since the DC strength check of the old "throwing sap" would be so ungodly high for anyone to try and beat the DC of that the HG player would be assured NOTHING would get close to him or anyone. It just seems that this item either should be reduced to a ranged weapon like a javelin or spear so as to be "thrown" out of a characters hand. So that the item would not be used repeatedly over and over. -introneurotic
#15 Pennarin Mar 02, 2005 19:55:22	Page 112-113 of PHB states that reach weapons wielded by a Medium character double the wielder's natural reach, making it 10 feet. Also, reach weapons cannot attack creatures in an adjacent square, meaning 5 feet away or less. The mekillot sap can strike at adjacent foes. Unlike other reach weapons, you don't slach a cord/chain at them, or use the tip of your hafted weapon, but you spin a sap and release the cord linked to it. You control the lenght of the cord like in a fishing cane, so you can strike adjacent foes. So the entry would now read: Sap, Mekillot: The mekillot sap is a soft but tough large leather bag filled with fine gravel or sand, stitched together with giant's hair, and tied to the end of a 5-foot rope. The mekillot sap is swung overhead with both hands. A mekillot sap has reach, so you can strike opponents 10 feet away with it. In addition, unlike most other weapons with reach, it can be used against an adjacent foe. Using a mekillot sap provokes an attack of opportunity, just as if you had used a ranged weapon. You can make trip attacks with the sap. If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the sap to avoid being tripped. Exotic Weapon Two-Handed Melee Weapon Sap, Mekillot (4) 25 Cp 1d6 (3) 2d4 (3) x2 — 30 lb. Bludgeoning (3) The weapon deals nonlethal damage rather than lethal damage. (4) Reach weapon
#16 superpriest Mar 02, 2005 20:18:50	For the Half-Giant and attacks of opportunity, well, the giant's going to have awesome attacks no matter what reach weapon he uses. And the tripping isn't broken any more.