k, thats all...
Burger
Cheers,
Cam
Isn't the Soulforge before the WotL?
I know the Black Robes had a hand in the Flying Citidals and the creation of the Draconians. Several Dragon Highlords were Black Robes too. I don't think it had anything especially to do with the Robes as a whole, just that Black Robes serve Takisis too, so fundamentally they would serve as individuals, if not as a whole, right?
Isn't the Soulforge before the WotL?
I know the Black Robes had a hand in the Flying Citidals and the creation of the Draconians. Several Dragon Highlords were Black Robes too. I don't think it had anything especially to do with the Robes as a whole, just that Black Robes serve Takisis too, so fundamentally they would serve as individuals, if not as a whole, right?
I do not agree with the view that "Black Robes serve Takhisis too".
This is a very simplistic view of alignment and the Black Robed Order.
I would argue that Black Robes serve Nuitari - if anyone - but they don't personalize Nuitari in that fashion. The gods of magic do not seek worship and the members of the Orders do not offer it. Their service is to magic and the Tower as a formal organization. The Black Robes loyalty to the ToHS might be a little suspect at times, but this is not a matter of white hats and black hats matching up with good gods and bad gods. It's a matter of Black Robes being untrustworthy, unethical and frequently selfish and power hungry; and yet they still serve the magic.
Dracart had gone missing for some time prior to the War - this was noted in the Soulforge. The implication is that some others of lesser standing than Dracart had perhaps defected as well... and that some among the Black Robes had dutifully reported this to Par-Salian.
It's also pretty clear from the Soulforge and from Brothers in Arms that the ToHS saw the WotL coming and did what they could to prevent Takhisis from winning - yes - even the Black Robes. Often, Wizards of the three Orders were abroad in the land as spies and agents of their Orders and the Tower.
DragonLance is not FR. There simply are so few Wizards that their rarity and loyalty to the Tower and the magic is their prime directive. Their loyalties and motives are always suspect by others as a result - no matter the color of robe the Wizard wears.
Consider also that the WotL was not just another war to those of the Conclave who understood what it really was: it was the long prophesied attempt of the Dark Queen to physically enter the world and seize it for her own. If she succeeded, this would upset the magic, the balance and clearly put the world of mortals in the greatest danger they had ever been in. The Wizards were not ignorant of this. Unlike the rest of the world that had forgotten the gods and dragons - the ToHS never did. They had suffered too greatly at the hands of the King Priest and his minions to forget.
Seen from that perspective - and accepting that Takhisis could be viewed as an *alien menace to all* - it is quite easy to see how many among the Black Robed Order in the ToHS would actively seek to oppose her. Raistlin was one of the primary instruments of the Conclave in this opposition; but he was not the only one.
In running my current WotL campaign, I have approached the ToHS as subtly and sometimes overtly doing what it can to resist Takhisis and the Dragon Armies. But the ToHS is weak. They are few in number, greatly reviled, distrusted by the common people and the Knights. They are without a natural ally - and the enemy is many. And yes, there are moles among the Black Robes who have "sold out" to Takhisis - not usually by reason of any doctrinal or ethical sympathy, but mainly that they foresaw that Takhisis would win and so choose to be on the winning side. Doubtless there were a few Red Robes who also foresaw this end to the WotL too, and chose accordingly.
What seems clear from the period after the Chaos War is that the Knights of Takhisis/Neraka are no friends of the Tower - no matter the color of the robes. The grey robes understand all too well that the Black Robes loyalty is to magic and to the ToHS itself - not to Takhisis. Raistlin's betrayal is symtpomatic of a deep-seated philospphical opposition among the Black Robes, not an exceptional event. The Black Robes are not trusted by Takhisis' chosen at all and are seen as the enemy.
DragonLance treats Wizards as pariahs and they are viewed generallyas untrustworthy beings by others. The Wizards of all Orders are treated as people whose motives are inscrutable and whose real loyalties lie to some other transcendant orgnization that does not have the common people's best interests at heart. This has always been a distinctive feature in the DragonLance setting. It has explained how the three Orders co-exist very well despite their ethical differences - and it explains why it is that the Wizards of Krynn are generally monolithic and vastly different from the FR or Greyhawk. It explains the cooperation of the Orders in giving the Tests and it explains Renegades as well.
The Black Robes are not the Wizards of Thay under a different name.
Approaching the Black Robes as being on Takhisis' "side" undermines this distincive factor in the setting and I think does so on a basis that is unjustifed in both the modules and the novels.
I put it to you that the WotL setting and your game can be greatly enriched by supposing that most Black Robes opposed Takhisis, rather than supposing that most Black Robes supported her.
I should have quoted Burger to be more clear; to answer his questions more directly, as far as I can remember having just re-read the Annotated versions of the Chronicals and Legends, then continued to my first read of the WoS, there was no organization from the ToHS as representatives for the ToHS, just individuals from the Black Robes in the Dragonarmies. I don't know if it was specified that the Black Robes that made the Draconians and Citidals were a Wing(or other group) to themselves or whether the Black Robes were interspersed w/i the Armies. I am sure there are some Black Robes (and possibly Red) that are freelanced to operate w/i the Armies too. I doubt the Whites had any involvement w/i the Dragonarmies. After the WotL in the Knights of Takisis, there was an order, the Knights of the Thorn that were Black Robes.
Steel: I didn't say ALL Black Robes served Takisis in the WotL, just some. I'm sure some did combat her too, for the some of the reasons you pointed out such as the possible threat to them and their magic.
As to your point that there is no support in the novels for some Black Robes ALSO serving Takisis, Dalamar, and Raistlin made many references to serving Takisis. I think Fisty did too, but I'm not sure. Yes, the Black Robes get their power from Nuitari but not worship her/him/it, just as you said, but many speak of serving Takisis. Many might not even know they are, thinking about the several references that Takisis appears in three distinct forms; the Seductress, a Black Robed mage, and a Dark Knight.The Knights of the Thorn were Black Robes, serving Takisis as Knights of her Order, if I recall correctly. Once again I have to refer to the fact that the novels (and modules) say that the Black Robes and Clerics of Takisis work togeather to create and operate the Flying Citadels, and worked togeather in the ritual to create the Draconians. Moreover in the modules there are some Dragon Highlords that are Black Robes. Something cut from the novels, but in the modules, between Chron. I and II is a fight with a Dark Elven Black Robe Highlord.
You said: "(Black Robes) service is to magic and the Tower as a formal organization. The Black Robes loyalty to the ToHS might be a little suspect at times, but this is not a matter of white hats and black hats matching up with good gods and bad gods. It's a matter of Black Robes being untrustworthy, unethical and frequently selfish and power hungry; and yet they still serve the magic.
Dracart had gone missing for some time prior to the War - this was noted in the Soulforge. The implication is that some others of lesser standing than Dracart had perhaps defected as well... and that some among the Black Robes had dutifully reported this to Par-Salian.
It's also pretty clear from the Soulforge and from Brothers in Arms that the ToHS saw the WotL coming and did what they could to prevent Takhisis from winning - yes - even the Black Robes. Often, Wizards of the three Orders were abroad in the land as spies and agents of their Orders and the Tower.
DragonLance is not FR. There simply are so few Wizards that their rarity and loyalty to the Tower and the magic is their prime directive. Their loyalties and motives are always suspect by others as a result - no matter the color of robe the Wizard wears.
Consider also that the WotL was not just another war to those of the Conclave who understood what it really was: it was the long prophesied attempt of the Dark Queen to physically enter the world and seize it for her own. If she succeeded, this would upset the magic, the balance and clearly put the world of mortals in the greatest danger they had ever been in. The Wizards were not ignorant of this. Unlike the rest of the world that had forgotten the gods and dragons - the ToHS never did. They had suffered too greatly at the hands of the King Priest and his minions to forget." and I agree with this for the most part.
I still think, that for the reasons above many Black Robes were still loyal to the Tower, but also worked for their own gains, woring through Takisis. It might be a somantic argument in this case that we are both right, just coming at it from different angles, but I whole-heartedly dissagree with you that Black Robes didn't have involvement in the WotL and beond.
When you talk about the period after the Chaos War, I don't think there is a HS order anymore. And Raistlin's betrayal (to the Tower and yes to Takisis too) is systematic of his arrogance and personality, not the fundementals of being a Black Robe, as you said. I agree the differences in mages in DL and other worlds make DL mages better and more interesting. I will grant you that many Black Robes probably fought against Takisis in the WotL, but I think you have to give me that some also served both the Tower and Takisis in the WotL.
I always got a sort of 'father figure' vibe from Cam, so I'd like to hear your opinion...
The Knights of the Thorn were Black Robes, serving Takisis as Knights of her Order, if I recall correctly.
You recall incorrectly.
This is wrong and belies exactly the point I was trying to make. The Knights of the Thorn were not Black Robes - they were Grey Robes. Their color was chosen to symbolize that they served Takhisis - not the ToHS. Their loyalties lay with the Dark Queen - not to the Magic. They are Renegades.
To Ariakan, Raistlin's betrayal of the Queen was symptomatic of the Black Robes loyalty to Magic over the Dark Queen. It is why Ariakan saw the need to establish an order of Sorcery outside of the ToHS - for the precise reason that the Black Robes could not be trusted as they had proved to be enemies during the WotL - and not allies.
Given the nature of the WotL and the Armageddon implications of the Dark Queen's victory if she physically entered Krynn - it was not really possible to serve both the Dark Queen and the ToHS. The stakes were too high and the long-term interests between the Magic and Takhsis too divergent. It was one or the other.
This might help us to see each others point if you are not goint to conceed on anything I had to say...
" Given the nature of the WotL and the Armageddon implications of the Dark Queen's victory if she physically entered Krynn - it was not really possible to serve both the Dark Queen and the ToHS. The stakes were too high and the long-term interests between the Magic and Takhsis too divergent. It was one or the other."
While I agree this is ultimatly true I think that many Black Robes were seduced by the power Takisis showed them. It is in the Black Robes nature to seek the quickest road to the most power they can get. It would be easy to turn a blind eye to the possibility of the "Armageddon implications" all for the sake of promissed power.
This is wrong and belies exactly the point I was trying to make. The Knights of the Thorn were not Black Robes - they were Grey Robes. Their color was chosen to symbolize that they served Takhisis - not the ToHS. Their loyalties lay with the Dark Queen - not to the Magic. They are Renegades.
Many of the Knights of the Thorn used to be Black Robes prior to joining the ranks of the Thorn Knights.
Are you quite positive that they didn't become Grey Robes when they became Knights of Nerka. I really don't think that the ToHS would stand by and see a huge faction of "Renegades" running around so visably. Renagades can only survive by working in secret not out in the open. They weren't even called Thorn Knights as Knights of Nerka, they were called the Grey Robes.
The terms "Knight of the Thorn", "Thorn Knight", and "Grey Robes" are all interchangeable. They have all been around since the founding of the Knights of Takhisis, and continue to this day as an order within the Knights of Neraka.
Many of the Knights of the Thorn used to be Black Robes prior to joining the ranks of the Thorn Knights.
No argument. But the point I was trying to make is that those individual Black Robes who did so went renegade and foreswore their oaths to Nuitari and the ToHS to join the Grey Robes.
The Grey Robes were founded on the principle that a Wizard cannot serve two masters: Magic on the one hand and Takhisis on the other.
As an organization, the Black Robe Order as members of the Conclave and the ToHS plotted against Takhisis' physical entry into the world as a calamitous event that must be opposed and avoided.
The renegade nature of the Thorn Knights (aka Grey Robes) is noted in the DLCS. As organized renegades and part of the Knights of Neraka, they are less vulnerable to the Conclave. Arguably, in fact, they are stronger than the Conclave, depending on the time period you are looking at.
The renegade nature of the Thorn Knights (aka Grey Robes) is noted in the DLCS. As organized renegades and part of the Knights of Neraka, they are less vulnerable to the Conclave. Arguably, in fact, they are stronger than the Conclave, depending on the time period you are looking at.
As evidenced in at least one raid on Storm's Keep, led by Justarius, that went horribly wrong, and resulted in most of those that went not coming back. The Thorn Knights were actively persecuted by the TOHS, but without much success -- but not for lack of trying.