* * * Wizards Community Thread * * * -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Thread : The Not So Good, The Bad and Plain Ugly Started at 09-10-03 12:01 PM by dogstar Visit at http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=97345 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1] Author : dogstar Date : 09-10-03 12:01 PM Thread Title : The Not So Good, The Bad and Plain Ugly We have seen the classics, but what about the Turkeys of AD&D and D&D, those modules or rulesbooks that looked great but were in fact horribly bad. First Up, Fiend Folio - Some of the Most Rubbish monsters ever to grace the RPG world somehow all managed to get into the one book, almost all of these were the kind of lame monster that appeared in third rate magazine adventures that populated Dungeon Magazine (or White Dwarf). Notable Exceptions were of course the Drow, Slaad, Giths, Death Knight, Shadow Daemon and Skelton Warrior. However the last two appeared in the Cartoon and as such were subject to ridicule from players at their appearance. Covers - 1st Edition, Earlier Print Rulebooks Who drew these? Was it Gary with his other hand wilst drunk and in a rush to get out the door. Without doubt the worst artwork to ever grace the cover of any publication, the original AD&D books have less appeal than a blank cover, surely the publishers must have known at least one person who could actually draw or paint. Still they sorted this for the second printing runs and later, drafting in Larry Elmore and Jeff Easley, so it can be forgiven (though the art inside Monster Manual looks like the guy did the lot in one day, and still got home in time for lunch). So what was your horror module, what made you throw up your 1st edition hands in dispair and cry into your fantasy mead..... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 2] Author : Mr. VanderMeer Date : 09-10-03 12:45 PM I actually like the Fiend Folio. It had some crappy comedy monsters, but other than that there were quite a few gems in it. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 3] Author : Lost_and_Damned Date : 09-10-03 12:57 PM IMHO the old Pastel modules released by Games Workshop for TSR in the late 70's/early 80's looked awful in print, though they were classics and got much better treatment later when rerelased by TSR themselves.... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 4] Author : diaglo Date : 09-10-03 01:43 PM 1edADnD books, bad artwork... are you crazy? DAT was the man. and DCSIII was not far behind. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 5] Author : Thailfi Date : 09-10-03 05:40 PM Horror stories from the horror expansion, Ravenloft. These adventures played like a bad sitcom instead of the creepy thrillers that were intended. I just love an adventure that starts out with every character getting their heads chopped off with no chance of survival, by the headless horseman, I felt like playing a character named Ichabod. This is supposed to freak us out? Who would actually believe any DM would do this to his players as anything more than a cheesy plot hook? We woke up as heads on a shelf and we immediately broke into a chorus of David Lee Roth's "Just a Giggalo" IIIIIIIIIIIIIII ain't got nobody! Nobody, Nobody cares for me... Then as a cheesy game balance crushing encounter, we ran into a dozen 15th level drow fighters who all happened to have +5 long swords. Yeah, a dozen 15th level drow with +5 long swords together at the same time. Then the final encounter with the big brain was hokey. We also had a bad opinion of Forgotten Realms for years, because the introductory modules were so bad. We hated every single NPC. We almost pooched the dungeon because Kelimvor got himself in trouble and our neutral characters hated him so much that they didn't go to his aid. We also hated the whole wide world, pull a rabbit out of your posterior plot hooks that pulled the parties out of the fire time and again. Midnight's spittle did what? Maybe she ought to get a breath mint. Can I learn this Midnight's Loogey of Destruction spell? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 6] Author : dogstar Date : 09-11-03 04:46 AM Ravenloft. The modules just smelt like B-Movies we ran it that way. Feast of Goblyns was probably about the best. Secret of Salt Lake - For this disapointing amount of experience gained, as one of the fellow players pointed out, we could have got more XP cleaning out town basements (which always seem to have 1-3 Giant Rats and a Giant Centipede) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 7] Author : AlteredEgo Date : 09-11-03 04:57 AM dogstar>> Shoulda listened to your buddy...went up through 3 levels in one adventure cleaning out the basements of the city we were in...and that was before the DM got to the meat of the adventure itself. I forget the name of the adventure, but I believe it was set in Greyhawk city. So for a 1st level adventure, we were 4th level adventurers by the time we actually got to it. :D -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 8] Author : NeutralNeutral Date : 09-11-03 07:12 AM Dogstar, you truly are a peasant. The Fiend Folio is great fun. Most of the monsters are love-or-hate, which is far better than mediocrity. And White Dwarf magazine was fantastic and had many great scenarios. Repent now. And as for 1E cover art: put down the crack pipe. That first PHB cover IS D&D - this point is non-negotiable. If you dont like it, you deserve to your eyes ripped out by a rabid bloodhawk. What sucked about 1E was the later stuff. The pointless cover redesigns. The wastes of paper that were the DSG and WSG. The munchkin-fest of UA. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 9] Author : spray paint affiliate Date : 09-11-03 08:20 AM Originally posted by NeutralNeutral And White Dwarf magazine was fantastic and had many great scenarios. Repent now. yeah, and the strips were great too. Thrud, Gooblygook (sic) and one other that i can't remember the name of....... ......it had a "scratchy" art style though..... *runs off to google to do some research.......* -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 10] Author : spray paint affiliate Date : 09-11-03 08:25 AM *comes running back.....................* The travellers. Great stuff. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 11] Author : spray paint affiliate Date : 09-11-03 08:40 AM http://www.groettum.net/dwarfen/WD075-50.htm the board won't let me import the image over, sorry. Ah......Nolstagia...... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 12] Author : Dragonmoose Date : 09-11-03 03:49 PM Oh man, the Dungeoneer's and Wilderness Survival Guides. I think Wargames West (have mercy on their souls) was blowing those books out for like $5 a pop. One of the group ordered one and we found out why. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 13] Author : Lost_and_Damned Date : 09-11-03 05:27 PM Originally posted by NeutralNeutral And White Dwarf magazine was fantastic and had many great scenarios. Repent now. i don't see anyone here mention White Dwarf, but yeah some of the scenerios are cool, espc "Irilian" the complete AD&D city based adventure.... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 14] Author : SputnikCorp Date : 09-11-03 05:47 PM i loved the old art and fiend folio? true, alot of the monsters were lame. flumph? tentamort? and who ever used a al-mi'raj. the one setting i shook my head at was "a council of wyrms". thats the setting where you played dragons. i remember my first and last game: we went up against 15 hill giants, we all rolled our breath weapon attacks. as you would imagined, the giants were toast. from that point on was a merciful blank. i only used the dungeoneer/wilderness guides for the proficiencies. the rest was redundant. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 15] Author : samsael Date : 09-14-03 01:30 PM Originally posted by Lost_and_Damned i don't see anyone here mention White Dwarf, but yeah some of the scenerios are cool, espc "Irilian" the complete AD&D city based adventure.... Lost_and_Damned IMHO the old Pastel modules released by Games Workshop for TSR in the late 70's/early 80's looked awful in print, though they were classics and got much better treatment later when rerelased by TSR themselves.... Who do you think publishes White Dwarf??? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 16] Author : Lost_and_Damned Date : 09-14-03 01:36 PM I mentioned Games Workshop's old TSR modules which they published under a liesence from TSR, i never mentioned White Dwarf, which was very good before it became solely in house, it seems this thread is becoming a "I Like X or prefer Y" instead of it being the bad stuff...... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 17] Author : GreyLord Date : 09-14-03 01:42 PM Bad Stuff... Anything by Jean Rabe All those FR books that are rub offs by worthless authors The Complete book of Nincompoops Well, How the Players/DM's Options tore apart the D&D community The Discontinuance of most of the RPG worlds The Good Stuff Anything by Weis and Hickman (well, DL and Modulewise) All the nicely written FR books The Complete Book of...well whatever your group used, I don't use any of them anymore The Core Rulebooks The Creation of some imaginative RPG worlds. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 18] Author : Stonebeard Date : 09-14-03 03:58 PM Originally posted by Lost_and_Damned I mentioned Games Workshop's old TSR modules which they published under a liesence from TSR, i never mentioned White Dwarf, which was very good before it became solely in house, it seems this thread is becoming a "I Like X or prefer Y" instead of it being the bad stuff...... I think you will find that good stuff bad stuff... is very dependant on who you ask. While I like X or I prefer Y is actually a more practical and useful approach. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 19] Author : dogstar Date : 09-15-03 09:13 AM It was supposed to be a kind of light hearted jokey kind of thing. As for the AD&D 1st Print covers, yeah right, great artwork, just worthy of exhibition, and hanging on the wall. Land Beyond the Magic Mirror - What was Gary on when the idea for that sprung out of his childhood bookshelf. I know we all have been left a bit last minute for an idea, and not got round to writing up the adventure, then had to run with a few notes on a wing and a prayer. But Alice in Wonderland, how on earth did he fit that into an ongoing campaign without his players coming up with 'Hey Gary, its ok, if you want to take a break from DMing....' A classic adventure, but one thats almost guarenteed to kill off the campaign (suddenly everyone is busy on Game night....).# Oh and the Dragonlance 'flogging a dead horse' cash cow novel series... hmm and thinking about it all the novels excepting the Dragons and Twins series. Incidently it was the novels that finally killed TSR off...... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 20] Author : Lost_and_Damned Date : 09-15-03 04:52 PM Originally posted by dogstar Land Beyond the Magic Mirror - What was Gary on when the idea for that sprung out of his childhood bookshelf. I know we all have been left a bit last minute for an idea, and not got round to writing up the adventure, then had to run with a few notes on a wing and a prayer. But Alice in Wonderland, how on earth did he fit that into an ongoing campaign without his players coming up with 'Hey Gary, its ok, if you want to take a break from DMing....' yeah reading Gary's early stuff it makes me wonder if he was taking something he shouldn't have..... :angel: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 21] Author : The MadStepDad Date : 09-16-03 04:48 PM Wow. Thailfi found the time to diss From The Shadows AND Thoughts of Darkness! Tsk. Tsk. Granted, some of the earlier Ravenloft modules are a tad weak, but you can’t deny this one simple fact: RAVENLOFT IS THE BEST! The whole concept is such a beautiful thing. Of all the TSR worlds, Ravenloft is the best cuz it got its own vibe while at the same time borrows hot stuff from the other games. So conceivably, you could have a Forgotten Realms/Ravenloft quest, a Dragonlance/Ravenloft epic or a Kara-Tur/Ravenloft romp! Plus, the NPCs are the sickest anywhere! I guess you guys aren’t familiar with Night Of The Walking Dead? That’s an old-school Ravenloft module that’s STILL the izh today! If ya’ll wanna see how a Ravenloft campaign unfolds, come check me right HERE in the RL boards! http://boards1.wizards.com/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=293 I be chillin up in there all the time, so come on down and say hello. Peace, y’all MSD -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 22] Author : dogstar Date : 09-17-03 05:24 AM I have that module, and its kind of great fun, but its not scary, Players are not scared of Undead in D&D unless it drains levels (then they are terrorfied of them). Ravenloft is fun, but its just so campy its funny, more hammer horror and evil dead (2+3) than scary.... The one with the ship was pretty good, with the 18th Level Mage/Necromancer bloke. He was scary as its 8-12th level..... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 23] Author : The MadStepDad Date : 09-17-03 08:35 AM Originally posted by dogstar The one with the ship was pretty good, with the 18th Level Mage/Necromancer bloke. He was scary as its 8-12th level..... Meredoth from Ship of Horrors. I've seen his pic from the cover of that module as an avatar here on the site. I hear ya bout the campy-ness, dogstar. I guess it's all in how you play the game. But FYI, in 3E the Walking Dead have been made MUCH iller by the release of the newest Van Richten guide. Check it out if you get the chance sometime. And they don't even have to stoop to the generic "energy/level drains" to make them scary. Tight book. peace MSD -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Downloaded from Wizards Community (http://forums.gleemax.com) at 05-10-08 08:17 AM.