But more specifically, I'm talking about the epic prestige classes or transformations whenever they come out. I'm all for a dragon being no more powerful than an Avignon at the same level*, but, if one of these advanced beings was compared to a non-advanced character of the same level**, I would think it would be alright for the dragon to be more powerfull.
In anycase, the odds being in favor of evil fits Athas very well.
*: If you don't have a defiling advantage as I discussed earlier. Or, the defiling advantage could finally be counteracted at certain levels. One other option for people that want balance is to give preservers a slight healing effect to their spells.
**:Especially if that character was from another D&D setting. As I recall, there were other uber-powerfull options besides going through one of the trasformation templates, so maybe an epic Darksun theif could compare to a dragon of the same level. Maybe.
I'm starting to think that maybe the D&D3.5 rules' emphasis on balance may not be in line with the flavor of Darksun.
Amen brother, welcome to the club.
:D
Currently, the extra power of defiling is represented by defiling feats, which allow for more powerful spells via increased defiling radi.
I do agree with your concerns, however. Luckily, the solution is simple. Simply reduce the xp cost to level by 25%, which was the benefit of defiling in 2nd edition, and remove defiling feats.
The officially unofficial conversion
Not sure why you are saying that, the Athas.org conversion is *very* official. ;)
http://www.athas.org/faq/
I think any official conversion must be balanced. If you want to break it, that's up to you... I don't feel that those who want balance should have to struggle to make it so, because it's easier to break something than to fix it.
Sure, but my contention is Dark Sun would be better off in the d20 realm where it only has to be balanced within itself, as opposed to being in the D&D3e realm where it has to be balanced with the D&D universe.
That's all I was getting at anyways with my praisings, I prefer balance over imbalance anyday.
Not sure why you are saying that, the Athas.org conversion is *very* official. ;)
It's official in that Wizards supports it.
It's unofficial in that Wizards isn't making themselves.
Since Wizards is backing it, it means that the people designing it must follow certain rules.
Which leads us to --
"Behold the power of house rules!"
It's official in that Wizards supports it.
That's right.
It's unofficial in that Wizards isn't making themselves.
Wrong. That doesn't make it unofficial. That does make it 3rd Party, tho. That would be like saying Ravenloft & Dragonlance are "unofficial" because Wizards isn't making them (Sword & Sorcery and Sovereign Press respectively).
Since Wizards is backing it, it means that the people designing it must follow certain rules.
Partially correct. You basically have it backwards. The folks at Athas.org must follow the rules that WotC has presented for balancing in the products released, or it ceases to be an Official product, and they lose the license to release materials for Dark Sun.
Which leads us to --
"Behold the power of house rules!"
House Rules are nice. I have a rather interesting mix of house rules I follow for my games.
Wrong. That doesn't make it unofficial. That does make it 3rd Party, tho. That would be like saying Ravenloft & Dragonlance are "unofficial" because Wizards isn't making them (Sword & Sorcery and Sovereign Press respectively).
Quite true, though the "officially unofficial" is more of a jest/line than a real statment.
Partially correct. You basically have it backwards. The folks at Athas.org must follow the rules that WotC has presented for balancing in the products released, or it ceases to be an Official product, and they lose the license to release materials for Dark Sun.
Thanks for the clarification. That's what I basically meant, though I didn't know the details as you do. Sorry if I was obtuse.
House Rules are nice. I have a rather interesting mix of house rules I follow for my games.
9 out of 10 plotting, fire breathing beatles from Family Guy say that they are, "Good. Very Good."
/majority shouts in: POWER OF THE DEFILER!
:invasion:
Just curiosity...
Just to start some noise: what about in-game balance? If Dark Sun would be d20, how should it be balanced? How much unbalancing can it bear? Which are the points where balance has to be kept, and which are the points where it shouldn't be kept?
Just kick out the CR/XP system and you can make it as broken you want.
Alternativly, Defilers could recieve increased spells per level, and a caster level bonus equal to 125% their current level, with the associated charisma penalty.
Hell, I don't even award XP the same way that is in the D&D core books - using a combination of combat, roleplaying, and story/quest/group XP, as well as notes that I have my players write down as to what their characters did notably in the campaign, to help divvy up the XP.
If you're going D20, the simplest method is to give characters leveling into a defiler class a 25% xp break -- that was the difference between defilers and preservers in 2nd edition.
No offense, but that idea violates one of the fundamental building blocks of the d20 system - namely that all classes use the same xp table. In your example, why shouldn't a rogue advance faster like the class did in 2E? You're not just making the defiler more powerful than a preserver, you're making it more powerful than all the other classes. It doesn't make sense that a defiler should gain more hit dice and skill rolls than other characters in the party just because the character is a defiler. Your other idea, of giving defilers other boons is better. Some other suggestions along that line of thinking: Reduce metamagic spell slot increases for defilers by 1; give a +1 caster level bonus at every four levels (only for calculating spell effects); an additional bonus spell for each spell level gained access to.
Looking at the original 2e stuff, the reason I loved playing it so much was that I could be unbalanced.. I could play characters starting at 3rd level, not the wimpy 1st, I could have characters of any spellcasting class become immortal and uber powerful. Athas was locked away from the rest of the multiverse because it's not powerful.. given the powers of the AB's who reside there, most other campaign worlds would tremble in fear.
I'm sorry, as cool as Raistlin and Elminster are, they aren't likely to survive very long in a combat against these heavy hitters. (sure Raistlin took out a Goddess of Evil and Elminster has been around nearly as long on a world much more saturated with spells of 9th level and bellow.. but no, they wouldn't win..)
I think of the Dragon (30th level full formed) as being as as potent as Elminster magically, (and moreso) as cunning as any ancient Dragon (and I'm talking "ancient") with as much power and capability as any Avatar in the FR.. and Raistlin?? Well, what made him cool was his character, (meaning his quality of attributes) he became a master of magic, but never leaned upon it for a crutch, he served magic and it served him.. A fully formed Dragon would likely have Raistlin's arrogance and ambition however. (as would likely many of the not fully formed dragons :P) They've all be alive longer than nearly any counterpart (excepting perhaps some undead) and they eventually have the ability to kick more but physically, magically, and mentally than any other character and most groups of characters.. I imagine it would take the greatest magical circles of most worlds to simply bind the Dragon of Athas.
so no, Athas does not have to be balanced, its supposed to be uber, overblown, way freakin powerful
If you want that power, be a spellcaster, if you don't, be a fighter or theif, you'll get near that power, but it'll be shortlived... (having the biggest army on Athas would be cool, as a fighter, but then the SK's would team up on your but or simply magically plague your single classed self..)No offense, but that idea violates one of the fundamental building blocks of the d20 system - namely that all classes use the same xp table. In your example, why shouldn't a rogue advance faster like the class did in 2E? You're not just making the defiler more powerful than a preserver, you're making it more powerful than all the other classes. It doesn't make sense that a defiler should gain more hit dice and skill rolls than other characters in the party just because the character is a defiler.
It makes perfect sense if you want to preserve the 2e feel of defilers, who recieved more HD, etc. than all the other classes, and were, in theory, more powerful than all the other classes.
To explain, in 2e, as I am sure you are aware, instead of classes being balanced around class levels, they were balanced roughly around xp amounts, in theory. Thus, while a wizard, cleric, thief, and druid with 1,000,000 xp were different levels, they were supposed to be close to the same general power level. Since, in theory, the wizard was balanced according to this system, defilers, who recieved a 25% xp break on leveling, were inherently more powerful than all other classes. They had more HD for their abilities at any given xp amount.
So, while it doesn't fit the 3e mechanics, it works perfectly if you want the overpowered defiler from 2e.
Your other idea, of giving defilers other boons is better. Some other suggestions along that line of thinking: Reduce metamagic spell slot increases for defilers by 1; give a +1 caster level bonus at every four levels (only for calculating spell effects); an additional bonus spell for each spell level gained access to.
I would agree that it is better -- the other option I listed keeps the 2e feel, but is much harder to manage, and doens't mesh with the system nearly as well. However, people who find keeping the 2e feel to be paramount would find the former option listed to be of paramount importance.
Personally, giving defilers a bonus spell slot at every spell level, a +1 bonus to caster level and a -2 penalty to charisma every 4 levels, and the metamagic bonus is the best way to simulate the power of defiling. Of course, with this option, defilers become their own class, which isn't a bad thing IMO, and defiler feats would be removed. Preservers who defile gain all associated bonuses/penalties, along with the defiling taint that can lead to a class switch.
It makes perfect sense if you want to preserve the 2e feel of defilers, who recieved more HD, etc. than all the other classes, and were, in theory, more powerful than all the other classes.
If you reread my post, you would see I used rogues (thieves) as an example. Thieves advanced faster than defilers in 2E and thus gained hp more often, so your argument is flawed. Since you yourself admit that your idea doesn't mesh with d20 concepts, it can hardly be called perfect. As for which class was more powerful, that is another discussion.
Personally, giving defilers a bonus spell slot at every spell level, a +1 bonus to caster level and a -2 penalty to charisma every 4 levels, and the metamagic bonus is the best way to simulate the power of defiling. Of course, with this option, defilers become their own class, which isn't a bad thing IMO, and defiler feats would be removed. Preservers who defile gain all associated bonuses/penalties, along with the defiling taint that can lead to a class switch.
You would discover some issues with regards to switching back and forth between defiler and preserver classes, but the other aspects would work. Though, I fail to see why you would drop the Raze feats, which would make the defiler even more powerful? If we're shooting for an unbalanced defiler, let's go large! :P
the two approaches are to make defilers more preferable (xp bonuses, accelerated leveling, feats or less restrictions), and to make preserving more difficult (xp penalties, higher leveling costs, loss of advantageous feats, and more restrictions).
the challenge of being a hero in dark sun is it is not really a rewarding world...thats why its a setting originally designed for seasoned players who perhaps dont mind balance and traditional approaches being waysided when the challenge and rigour are there to be experienced
If you reread my post, you would see I used rogues (thieves) as an example. Thieves advanced faster than defilers in 2E and thus gained hp more often, so your argument is flawed. Since you yourself admit that your idea doesn't mesh with d20 concepts, it can hardly be called perfect. As for which class was more powerful, that is another discussion.
Except in 2e a character's power isn't really based on level, in theory, it's based on xp. It's not a level 30 theif and level 27 fighter, for example, it's a theif and a fighter with 1,000,000 xp.
In theory, the thief with more levels at the same xp level than the average wizard, and thus, more HD, is balanced based on the power levels of the class -- theif's were weaker per level, so they gain levels faster to compensate. The argument, on this front, is perfectly valid, in theory. Of course, it often didn't work that way, but that could be chalked up to more of a lack of refinement than anything else.
And it doesn't mesh well with d20, but it's a question of style and the amount of effort you are willing to put forth to make it work. Someone who wants the 3e rules with a 2e feel would remove racial LAs and give defilers their XP bonus back. 2e, IMO, is not what it was chalked up to be -- I personally love the new system -- so I wouldn't do something like this. But, for someone with a greater appreciation of the old rules, this could fit nicely with some adaptation.
You would discover some issues with regards to switching back and forth between defiler and preserver classes, but the other aspects would work. Though, I fail to see why you would drop the Raze feats, which would make the defiler even more powerful? If we're shooting for an unbalanced defiler, let's go large!
It's a question of style IMO: The end result is making defilers more powerful than preservers, on the margine, but making them too powerful is asking for trouble, not to mention drastic CR increses and LA adjustments, much like monster races; additionally, the social penalties are supposed to balance this out.
The difference, as I see it, is one of subtly and differentiation. Feats make defilers and preservers the same class -- it's the same thing in the game world, a dark part of Athasian magic available to all casters. Feats would be preferable for a game where you don't want people to be able to tell that someone's a defiler just by looking at them unless they are really into defiling via a PrC. I personally love this sort of ambiguity, and I can see the merits of feats and PrCs.
A different class, on the other hand, generates a greater rift, like in 2e, but without the associated rules baggage. You know who a defiler is with a quick glance at their "character sheet", as it were, and one who stuck with the standard 20 level class would be much different from a preserver at the same level, simply because they wouldn't stack. I enjoyed the setting from 2e, if not the rules, so I admire this option as well.
Redemption and preserver defiling rules would be stickier to manage, with this option, but not by much -- a redeemed defiler becomes an equal level preserver, and a preserver who defiles temporarily gains part or all of the standard defiler's inherent bonuses and penalties. A fallen preserver becomes a defiler. Working out the specifics of preserver defiling would take play testing, but the conceptual model isn't difficult.
the sorceror kings didnt get where they were by being good and just monarchs
Actually, Oronis has the most verdant and happy city-state in the Tablelands, and it's because he is a wise and benevolent ruler. In DS, it may seem to pay off to be evil and selfish, but when you share resources and do what is right, you can overcome the harsh nature of the land.
Actually, Oronis has the most verdant and happy city-state in the Tablelands, and it's because he is a wise and benevolent ruler. In DS, it may seem to pay off to be evil and selfish, but when you share resources and do what is right, you can overcome the harsh nature of the land.
Theoretically speaking, enough wizards/clerics/druids could change the desert to verdant lands again with the that makes land firtle (gah, I can't remember the name).
Verdigris Tsunami. It's an epic spell.
That wasn't the one I was thinking of, but it would work too.
And it doesn't mesh well with d20, but it's a question of style and the amount of effort you are willing to put forth to make it work. Someone who wants the 3e rules with a 2e feel would remove racial LAs and give defilers their XP bonus back. 2e, IMO, is not what it was chalked up to be -- I personally love the new system -- so I wouldn't do something like this. But, for someone with a greater appreciation of the old rules, this could fit nicely with some adaptation.
I think this hypothetical person you're talking about is somewhat at a loss. If the other options we discussed that mesh with the new rules give roughly the same benefits as a 25% xp bonus, why break a fundamental design principle and break the new rules system? :P
Redemption and preserver defiling rules would be stickier to manage, with this option, but not by much -- a redeemed defiler becomes an equal level preserver, and a preserver who defiles temporarily gains part or all of the standard defiler's inherent bonuses and penalties. A fallen preserver becomes a defiler. Working out the specifics of preserver defiling would take play testing, but the conceptual model isn't difficult.
So, in theory I could start out as a defiler and advance quickly, then become a preserver of equal level? :P Munch meat!
So, in theory I could start out as a defiler and advance quickly, then become a preserver of equal level? :P Munch meat!
That's if you give the xp break, which I wouldn't do in all likelyhood.
It is a problem, however it is also a problem that was present in 2e. It would be upto the DM -- if he/she feels that the player is jump starting her/his perserver by starting neutral and as a defiler and then hoping for redemption, then the DM is fully within her/his rights to smack said powergaming player back into place. There's not much you can do mechanics-wise.
okay, well, how do we make defiling enticing without unbalancing it then?
Ultimatley speaking, you can't. The simple fact is that all base classes are balanced around each other, and defilers are more powerful, evil wizards. There are social stigmas that are very real penalties, but, as far as game power goes, not as much.
The question is how much and by in what way. Currently, defiling gains its power from PrCs and defiling feats -- an archdefiler with several defiling feats is going to be a horror to face in combat compared to the average preserver.
Some players find issue with this, since it is far more subtle than the inherent power defiliers recieved in 2nd edition. Defilers were 25% more powerful than every other class, on the margine, since they required 25% less xp to level than the normal wizard, as you are probably aware. Thus, there is an interest in making defilers their own class and giving them an inherent class boost.
It boils down to preference and method. Feats and PrCs make defiling and preserving far more intertwined and makes the line more nebulous, at least at first. A level 17 archdefiler has obviously made her/his chosen, but a level 5 preserver with a single defiling feat who uses the extra power in extreme emergencies is far more morally ambiguous. On the other hand, making defilers into a seperate class maintains the clear delination of good/evil from second addition, while achieving similar power results. In the end, I find both appealing.
~just sayin....~
defilers better. end story, if there be mathematical defeciency, well, the world, and players, should could and will take advantage of it.