I need the maximum of information I can get on the Black. I have the book Defiler and preserver, but they dont tell much)
I need the maximum of information I can get on the Black. I have the book Defiler and preserver, but they dont tell much)
When I was tasked by Athas.org, back when it just started, to do some research on the planes of Athas (as part of a project on converting old spells and psionic powers that eventually stalled) the most information I found on the Black (and the Gray for that matter) was the five books of the Prism Pentad.
I made copious notes, citing ever page reference I could find, as well as writing my opinions as to what it meant for the cosmology. As I said, the most stuff on what the Black is like is in the Prism Pentad.
Whoa! I just found my notes and commentary in the corresponces email I have saved. I'll cut-n-paste the notes in my next post.
Regards,
Eric Anondson
- PP II: p. 45-50 Rikus’ first encounter with Umbra. Umbra opens up a can of whoop-ass, but the legion is victorious in the end. The only bit of note was Umbra’s summoning. Maetan of Lubar seemingly does nothing of note, he was just standing on the top of a hill as his own shadow extends across the ground and takes the shape of the Shadow Giant. Did Maetan summon him via the Way? Did he just contact Umbra via the Way? Or was Umbra just watching and waiting? The entire encounter gives the impression that Maetan of Lubar did either summon or contact Umbra.
- PP II: p. 93-94 Maetan invokes Umbra to give him some instructions. The following is a likely relevant excerpt, “ ‘I do not relish being invoked for such mundane tasks,’ objected Umbra”. Umbra goes on to complain about such low-light conditions as moonlight causes him pain because a shadow needs light to give it shape and substance.
- PP II: p. 141-149 Battle with Umbra once more, and it is here that it is revealed that the Scourge can harm Umbra where all other weapons that strike Umbra become frail and brittle and easily shatter.
- PP II: p. 154-168 Rikus hunts down Umbra to take him on one-on-one in the citadel of Borys’ wraiths. Before Rikus duels Umbra, Umbra sighted the wraiths of the citadel, and the wraiths couldn’t spot him and the passage explains why.
- PP III:, p.24-26 NOTE: I thought you would be interested. It is Er’Stali quoting from the Book of Kemalok Kings, where it is mentioned in the Book that Jo’orsh interrogated the wraiths of the Citadel of Ebe with the “Way of the Unseen”. I am uncertain when the Book of Kemalok Kings was penned, but this would give us a stated time when this phrase was in common use at a point in the past. Of course, it may not mean much, because one could say that the authors of the book described what they were familiar with. Another thing of note, it seems that Jo’-orsh and Sa’ram did what was written about them in the Book of Kemalok Kings just after the Champions rebelled against Rajaat. I’m just noting it because of how soon Boris’ followers turned to wraiths and Rajaat’s halflings were able to discover a way to project out of the Black.
- PP III: p. 27 Small note where Er’Stali notes that “… Umbra always appeared when Maetan summoned him.”
- PP III: p. 286-291 Sadira’s first encounter with the shadow people, just outside of the Pristine Tower. Nothing much of importance, as far as I can tell.
- PP III: p. 294-295 Sadira and Rhayn bribe some shadow people to let them continue on because they have word of Umbra’s fate. Again, nothing really of note here.
- PP III: p. 298-309 Sadira and Rhayn’s encounter with Khidar at the top of the Pristine Tower and Rhayn bargains badly. Khidar takes Sadira on a brief walk about the top of the Tower and tells Sadira a bit of propaganda about how they came to be, why they need Obsidian, etc. before giving changing her into Super-sorceress. There was a bit of something that seemed of interest. After Rhayn bargained badly, and was going to be killed by Khidar, Rhayn begain to defile the garden atop the Pristine Tower. As she empowered her spell from the brackish pool (that Khidar said was not for drinking), a brown stain slowly began to spread across the water. Hmm! A little “Brown Tide”? Was that water a tiny portion of the ocean of the Blue Age that the halflings of that age managed to save?* Enquiring minds…
- PP IV: p. 216-217 Sacha and Wyan explain to Tithian that they are in contact with the shadow people, who are in touch with Rajaat, and that if Tithian aids Rajaat he could get a mighty reward…
- PP V: p. 1-3 The PP series first mentioning of the Hollow as the Hollow, not just Rajaat’s prison. The shadow people must communicate with Rajaat through thought-speech because there is no sound in the Hollow. While Rajaat is imprisoned inside the Hollow, it seems that the shadow people can project some part of themselves into the Hollow so that they can communicate, otherwise I would reason there is no communication through the boundary of the Hollow.
- PP V: p. 35 Brief mention of a spell effect of a spell of Sadira. “The sorceress raised both hands toward the sun. Her shadow formed a circle around her feet, then rose up to swallow her body in a dark fog.” I can’t much explain it but I thought it might be of interest to this search for Black and Gray mentionings.
- PP V: p. 48-52 Wyan summons aid from the shadow people while Sadira is trying to get the council of Tyr to vote to let Rikus lead the legion against the Dragon. Khidar hisses to one council member “The Black is no illusion!”
- PP V: p. 256 Sacha summons a shadow giant to lead Rikus through the Black for an escape from a few sorcerer-kings.
- PP V: p. 259-262 Rikus short jaunt through the Black. Here is some meaningful excerpts. “ ‘In the Black, time has little meaning,’ the shadow giant replied. ‘But I will deliver you to the other side in a matter of instants in your time—provided Sacha was not mistaken about the light. Normally, we cannot approach Ur Draxa because there are no shadows in this land.’ ”
- PP V: p. 285-286 Small passage where Khidar is slowly assuming more and more true form of his halfling shape as he speaks with Tithian who is walking through Ur-Draxa, after killing Boris.
- PP V: p. 295-296 Another meaningful tidbit from Sadira and Rikus’ last battle with Khidar. “At first Sadira did not understand, but then she realized what happened. Shadow people had no life forces of their own; they existed only as sillouettes marking the absence of energy—usually in the form of light. So direct contact with a mystic power—one of the most potent forms of energy—annihilated them.”
That's everything, cleaned up from cut-n-paste format errors. But otherwise as it when I wrote it in April or March of 2001. Of course, I may have missed more references in the novels as well. Only human and all that...
Regards,
Eric Anondson
--just use the planar traits for the Plane of Shadows, and you'll be fine NB
The Black is the Athasian variant on the standard D&D Plane of Shadows.
That would be a most simple way, but lacking the full flavor. It would get someone by in a pinch.
That would be a most simple way, but lacking the full flavor. It would get someone by in a pinch.
The only thing that needs to be added to the Black that the bog-standard Plane of Shadows does not have is the Black's entrapping quality. The Black is big, hungry, and quite possibly lusts for souls, so getting in is not the problem; it's getting out that requires some effort...
--also, the Black might be minorly Evil-Aligned NB
I'm unsure of Gravity of the Black. Off the top of my head I would say that the Black should also have a trait of Limited Magic. I would have to re-read my cites again to get a better idea of which descriptors should be limited though. I just have a sense that from what I remember, certain spells would need to be limited. Particularly teleportation or communication types of spells that transcended planar borders should be limited with The Black... based on the presentation in the Prism Pentad. I mean, the passage about Rikus' face being brushed by the gossamer filaments of The Black itself fits no example of what I have seen Shadow being described as.
To me, that seems to be too much different from Shadow to make it a perfect surrogate flavor-wise. It is suitable to a quick and dirty substitute.
isnt the Black the Athasian Astral, and teh Grey the Athasian Ethereal planes?
That means different things to different people.
And not to hijack the thread too much, ... depending on how much of the old Great Wheel cosmology you want in your Athasian cosmology, some consider the Gray as the Athasian analog to the Great Wheel's Astral because in the Great Wheel cosmology the Astral plane is the highway that souls of the deceased travel to get to the outer planes. The planar barrier that "silenced" the Gods has ceased soul transcendence and has caused the traffic of the souls to build up in the portion of the Astral adjacent to Athas... changing the characteristics into what Athas knows as the Gray.
isnt the Black the Athasian Astral, and teh Grey the Athasian Ethereal planes? i thought they were the only ones (and elemental!) that connect to the planes anyhow.
Like Eric said, it means different things to different people.
My personal take on it is that the Grey is a merging of the Astral and Ethereal planes, which was an anomaly hat resulted in it also becoming a barrier between everything within it, and all the rest of the multiverse. It also ended up cutting off a piece of the Shadow plane in the process, which became the Athasian "Black". However, over countless millenia, these planes have taken on other qualities - as the Grey cuts access from the Outer Planes, spirits of the dead become trapped there, and slowly decay/dissolve. This effect has integrated the Negative Energy plane with the Grey, so much that they are pretty much the same thing. The elemental & paraelemental planes absorbed most of the Positive Energy plane in and among themselves, making the elements more positively-alligned as a result. This mostly solves all the planes that would be in the "typical" D&D cosmology.
But, not to derail the thread :P
In some definite fashion I mean.
i think perhaps athas' generally isolated nature says more about the 'Black' than giving it the qualities of some other weird dimension, with cubes the size of...well you get my drift.
Do you, members of athas.org, know if it has been considered in the past to match the athasian dimensions to the D&D dimensions when using spells that have the words astral, ethereal and plane of shadow in them?
I did just such a thing in when I was doing my planes research for them back in 2001. Of course though I was going under the assumption that there would be no Astral or Ethereal planes, only the Prime, Gray, Black, four elemental and 4 paraelemental... period. As such I was mapping many Astral things to the Black, and Ethereal effects to the Gray. When I read that Rikus was passing through substantive wisps of filaments on The Black, it felt like it could be a suitable use for Metacreativity effects. Needless to say, it was controversial.
Do you, members of athas.org, know if it has been considered in the past to match the athasian dimensions to the D&D dimensions when using spells that have the words astral, ethereal and plane of shadow in them?
In some definite fashion I mean.
The latest edition of TotDL has information on this - should be out any day now. The following list was posted (by superpriest, iirc) a few days ago, but as the search function is down, here it is again. TotDL also includes lists of which spells are linked to the Black, the Gray, the Astral, the Elemental Planes as well as which spells involve planar travel and affect extraplanar creatures.
The Gray is analogous to the Ethereal Plane and the Negative Energy Plane.
The Black is analogous to the Plane of Shadow.
Astral Plane remains the Astral Plane.
Elemental Planes & Paraelemental Planes are analogous to the Elemental Planes and the Positive Energy Plane.
The Deep is analogous to the Outer Planes and any other oddness that the DM wishes to include in his cosmology. This allows DMs to either exclude or include the Great Wheel cosmology, if desired, but does not impose either position.
Astral Plane remains the Astral Plane.
Arghhh! Damn you Black Spine for corrupting an otherwise spotless cosmology with non-DS crap!
Even the demons of Dregoth Ascending are easier to swallow than an athasian astral plane...
-sigh-
Thanks for the effort guys, I just would have liked a lot to find astral and ethereal perfectly matched with Black and Gray, what will all the spell uses and travel involving those two planes by Sadira and in RaFoaDK...
Also, the Gray can't be completely negative or the undead would not be dissolved into it - they would be strengthened by it.
Glad I'm not alone! ;)Arghhh! Damn you Black Spine for corrupting an otherwise spotless cosmology with non-DS crap!
You are partially correct, Pennarin. Black Spine keeps the Astral securely outside the Grey, and uses a very powerful artifact under the control of a very powerful Githyanki Queen ( but not Vlaakith the Lich Queen) to pierce the Grey and allow the Githyanki in. But the Astral is in no way, shape or form implied or stated to be touching Athas. Be at ease, my friend. The cosmology remains pure.
To say those spells still use those planes while respecting that 1% chance of success makes those spells virtually worthless.
Sadira travelled through the Black, although no one else ever did, and Hamanu travelled to the Gray and said many wizards and psions did also. Those planes can be made to replace the astral and ethereal in spells. I'm still amazed DS3 doesn't have athasian versions of those spells...
Also, doesn't teleportation use ether the astral or ethereal to function?
On the matter of the Gray's negative energies...I don't believe it would be an hindrance to souls' dissolutions. The dissolution factor may be an inherent characteristic of the plane and unaffected by its negative energies.
The negative aspects of the Gray are largely confined to a region we defined as the Deep Gray. Other than the Deep Gray regions, the plane works as a good replacement for the Ethereal, with the Deep Gray corresponding to the Negative Energy Plane.
The existence of the Deep is largely an issue of nomenclature - it can serve as a direct equivalent of the Outer Planes if desired, or be used to represent other regions or planes as well, depending on the individual DM. Most likely, Athasians would not refer to the Outer Planes as such - "The Deep" is a suitably Athasian name for the same region.
To be clear, however, it should be said that TotDL only focuses on and provides full details for the Gray. The other planes are mentioned by name only, and even then only in the list of equivalents I cited above. A more detailed breakdown of the Dark Sun cosmology is outside the scope of TotDL and will have to wait for another supplement. On the topic of this thread, for example, it is clear that the Black should possess characteristics above and beyond those of the Plane of Shadow, but ya gotta start somewhere ;)...