For the last several hundred issues, Dragon magazine has held to a loose thematic schedule that goes something like this:
The June issue is about Dragons. Put a dragon on the cover, and try to
fill the magazine with as much dragon content as possible. It's tradition,
to honor the first ever issue of the magazine, and to remind us never to
stray too far from our namesake.
In October, play up horror. It's Halloween, dontcha know? Try to throw in
some new undead creatures.
Oh, and in April, try to do something funnny but don't make a complete ass
of yourself.
Starting next year, we'll be kicking off a new tradition, by bringing back
the popular Campaign Classics theme. The issue will highlight the campaign
settings of the past.
I've put a great deal of thought into how an editor-in-chief might go
about building an issue around the theme. I have yet to make up my mind
about several important elements, and thought you guys might enjoy helping
me think through how to do the very best Campaign Classics we can. With
enough time, I think we can really make the issue a special treat for fans
of the old settings while also providing plenty of excellent content to
readers who are not familiar with some of the old gems.
I wonder if you might answer a few questions.
Pick One:
A) Cover every dead campaign setting.
B) Cover a few in more detail and with more visual resources (maps,
images, etc.)
Would you be interested in a magazine that basically gave the "gist" of
all of the settings as a grand tour, with some basic information on how to
pull off certain tricks of the setting (defiler/preservers, red steel,
gens, etc.)?
How "continuity heavy" do readers really want the articles to be?
I really want to come up with a way to showcases the elements that made
each setting special, rather than just a collection of articles that go:
so here's how to play a halfling in this setting. Or "here's the stats for
one monster from this one corner of this setting you've never heard of."
I suspect that Dark Sun is an absolute necessity for an issue like this.
I sort of feel like Ravenloft and Dragonlance already get publishing
support, and that maybe those pages would be better spent on a more
hopeless cause.
Mystara seems a must, what with Mike McArtor in the office.
Kara Tur is very interesting, but why not just do something sweet with
Kara Tur in an Oriental Adventures-themed issue?
Hollow World is like a complete cypher to me. I don't think I've even
seriously looked at one of those supplements. As such, it is an enigma. It
might be really interesting. It might be crap.
Spelljammer probably deserves a more faithful modern version. Polyhedron
was always more experimental, but Dragon is Dragon, and a certain amount
of decorum is expected of the office.
Lankhmar is off the table, since WotC no longer owns the gaming rights to
the world.
Maztica and especially The Horde deserve some love. Call me crazy, but I
would love to go National Geographic on the lands of the Tuigan. That's
rich territory for both Forgotten Realms fans and for readers interested
in trying something different or filling in the borders of their own
campaign world.
Al-Qadim remains very popular with the readers.
Whatever I'm forgetting probably doesn't make the first cut, but let me
know if I'm missing a gem (not sure Jakandor: Island of War counts).
Thoughts?
--Erik Mona
Editor-in-Chief
Dragon & Dungeon
I will say two things about further Dark Sun support from Dragon.
First, that I hope it is a bit more faithful to the setting.
Second, that further exposure is a good thing and gets more people interested in Dark Sun. With enough people behind it, perhaps Dark Sun will see print again.
Sysane, where did you see that post at?
WotC General Discussion Thread.
WotC General Discussion Thread.
I'm not seeing it (looked through 5 pages!) and the search function doesn't seem to be working.
Got a link?
If they continue to do the crappy job they did before with Dark Sun, then I would rather them just leave it alone, whether it brings new fans or not.
If the crappy stuff attracts new people, then IMO that's people the community can do without.
My bad. I meant the Paizo site HERE
LOL! I've got it now, thanks.
If they continue to do the crappy job they did before with Dark Sun, then I would rather them just leave it alone, whether it brings new fans or not.
If the crappy stuff attracts new people, then IMO that's people the community can do without.
Nytcrawlr, I'm going to have to disagree with you here on a few points.
Whether the Dark Sun materials in Dragon is "crappy" or not is highly subjective. I imagine, as a "die-hard" fan of the setting, it doesn't ring true with you and you think it was a bad job. As a "casual fan" of the setting, I didn't think it was too bad overall (save for the half-giant and paladin).
As far as new fans and the community, I must disagree here as well. These boards are for the discussion of Dark Sun, not just your view on it, and not just for the classic Dark Sun gaming materials.
You may not like the new materials, and that's okay, but this should be a place where we can all come together and discuss our myriad views and learn more about the setting.
We should welcome new fans, not drive them off.
It would be as if WotC started releasing Forgotten realms, but rather than any magic or gods, it now has high technology and Jedi.
I can see it now.
Elminster - Chosen of Mystra/Jedi Master
Nytcrawlr, I'm going to have to disagree with you here on a few points.
I'll make sure I'm next to you then when my head explodes from the next onslaught of no-clue newbies arrive then.
:D
I'll make sure I'm next to you then when my head explodes from the next onslaught of no-clue newbies arrive then.
:D
I'll just bring some plastic and pretend that I'm going to see Gallagher. :D
I'll just bring some plastic and pretend that I'm going to see Gallagher. :D
Sledge o Matic!
:D
Oh goodie, I can't wait for the inevitable flamewars, bile, and bad blood that results from these types of articles.
I wish the search function worked. I would just quote all my old arguments. LOL
Though I probably would have to edit them some, but still, be easier than just bringing them up all over again.
/me sighs
Thank god I didn't renew my subscription to either Dragon or Dungeon, good riddance.
I wish the search function worked. I would just quote all my old arguments. LOL
Though I probably would have to edit them some, but still, be easier than just bringing them up all over again.
/me sighs
Thank god I didn't renew my subscription to either Dragon or Dungeon, good riddance.
You'll just end up with all new arguments anyways.
I did pick up some Dungeons (for the GH map). Meh, none really struck my fancy. Dragon, have not read in many years now, and I doubt they could wow me now anyways.
Meh, none really struck my fancy. Dragon, have not read in many years now, and I doubt they could wow me now anyways.
Yeah, it's been a steady decline for me as well.
What Paizo did to Dark Sun was just the nail in the coffin.
Yeah, it's been a steady decline for me as well.
What Paizo did to Dark Sun was just the nail in the coffin.
I thought about picking up March's issue, because it had a "complete coverage" of the Eberron dark elves (mosly just curious). Maybe I didn't pay close enough attention when I thumbed through it (before setting it back), but it seems that article was just PrCs & feats. Kinda makes me think: why bother having races at all? Just make everyone freaky mutants with pick-your-own abilities and be done with it.
I thought about picking up March's issue, because it had a "complete coverage" of the Eberron dark elves (mosly just curious). Maybe I didn't pay close enough attention when I thumbed through it (before setting it back), but it seems that article was just PrCs & feats. Kinda makes me think: why bother having races at all? Just make everyone freaky mutants with pick-your-own abilities and be done with it.
Actually, I've got that one, it's one of my last issues.
I really liked what they did with the Drow for Eberron in that issue.
There were alot of PrCs and feats, but there were a few nice tidbits, the one on the Drow especially. Though I'm curious as to why they still have the daylight penalties when they live above ground, though it did mention some sort of shadow land that they lived in, so maybe that's why.
I think that one part made the issue for me, mainly cause I really love Drow, it was just a damn good twist on the original race, made them all tribal and hunter types.
Pretty cool.
Actually, I've got that one, it's one of my last issues.
I really liked what they did with the Drow for Eberron in that issue.
There were alot of PrCs and feats, but there were a few nice tidbits, the one on the Drow especially. Though I'm curious as to why they still have the daylight penalties when they live above ground, though it did mention some sort of shadow land that they lived in, so maybe that's why.
Meh, feats & PrCs bore me. Give me culture, towns, and the like
I'm not fond of simply bundling up a set of feats & PrCs and calling it a race.I think that one part made the issue for me, mainly cause I really love Drow, it was just a damn good twist on the original race, made them all tribal and hunter types.
Heh, been there, done that. I once did a "savage world"-style island I dumped my PCs on. Had drow living in hollowed out tropical trees. Party hated them, namely for the wicked spells I gave them (ex: acid rose - a rose grows up where the character is standing (in the ground between his legs), then explodes in an acid splash. For dwarves, this is *really* nasty). I was rather sadistic in my DMing days...;)
Meh, feats & PrCs bore me. Give me culture, towns, and the like
I agree wholeheartedly. Don't see this much anymore in the D&D world these days.
Actually, I've got that one, it's one of my last issues.
I really liked what they did with the Drow for Eberron in that issue.
There were alot of PrCs and feats, but there were a few nice tidbits, the one on the Drow especially. Though I'm curious as to why they still have the daylight penalties when they live above ground, though it did mention some sort of shadow land that they lived in, so maybe that's why.
I think that one part made the issue for me, mainly cause I really love Drow, it was just a damn good twist on the original race, made them all tribal and hunter types.
Pretty cool.
In on of my Hombrew setting's worlds, I have Drow. Of course, they are part of a single nation which comprises the High (or "holy") Elves (which are more like the "gray elves in D&D3.5E terms), Gray Elves (which are more like the "high elves" in D&D3.5E terms - the typical elf from the PHB), Wood Elves, and the Dark Elves.
My High Elves and Dark Elves are polar opposites - made to be the leaders of ancient gods' armies, however they now are more unified due to a common enemy. Makes for some interesting politics in the Elvish nation, as Dark Elves and High Elves were made to hate each other by their respective deities, and yet, they are currently making the overtures of cooperation.
Whether the Dark Sun materials in Dragon is "crappy" or not is highly subjective. I imagine, as a "die-hard" fan of the setting, it doesn't ring true with you and you think it was a bad job. As a "casual fan" of the setting, I didn't think it was too bad overall (save for the half-giant and paladin).
I think an adequate comparison would be if, for example, they did a DL conversion, except that they decide to dump kender & tinker gnomes in favor of halflings and standard gnomes, added orcs & lycanthropes, and did away with most of the rules that made DL unique. That's the impression I got, but I can't say for certain, since I didn't pick up the issue, either. So I'm just a bastion of knowledge on the subject... :rolleye2:
I think an adequate comparison would be if, for example, they did a DL conversion, except that they decide to dump kender & tinker gnomes in favor of halflings and standard gnomes, added orcs & lycanthropes, and did away with most of the rules that made DL unique. That's the impression I got, but I can't say for certain, since I didn't pick up the issue, either. So I'm just a bastion of knowledge on the subject... :rolleye2:
I did pick up the issue, and admittedly, there are a few flub-ups in there (half-giants!). And granted, I'm not as knowledgeable about Dark Sun as other people, but it didn't really seem like they gutted DS with the stuff in Dragon.
Now, if you were to say that about the Spelljammer mini-game, I could see your point. Gotta have my giff! ;)
My point, though, is that for better or for ill, Dragon has done Dark Sun. That can't be changed now, and it appears that they might continue to do more - again, for better or for ill.
I know that many fans of Dark Sun don't like the Dragon article, and that's fine. What isn't cool to me is the idea that there might be someone out there who does like it, they come to these boards to discuss it, and then are flamed for their opinion.
That's partially why I don't post as much on the Spelljammer mailing list. If you mention liking 3e, they seem to flame you. If anyone came on saying they liked Spider Moon, they got flamed.
I just don't want to see that sort of thing here. I have no problems if people didn't like the Dragon article. I just hope that those who did like it get a chance to voice their opinions without being flamed.
I've come to dispise edition wars. People can play whatever edition they want to play, its a free country. Why they fight over it is beyond me; I don't care any more.
I think I'll leave it at that, my train of thought keeps leaving the station...
I imagine, as a "die-hard" fan of the setting, it doesn't ring true with you and you think it was a bad job.
Not all us die-hard fans of the setting think it was a bad job. I didn't mind the articles, even found some useful ideas in them, and just have to roll my eyes whenever I hear someone griping about them. Seriously, there are better things in the world to expend one's energy complaining about, complaints that are meaningful and useful, rather than just empty, useless grumping over a very unimportant issue.
Honestly, I view the upset over the DS articles the same way I view the huge hissy-fit furor over the Spelljammer rewrite a couple years back (the Shadow of the Spider Moon): just idiotic enough to make me roll my eyes and feel sick to my stomach.
I absolutely loved the new Spelljammer, and found it superior in nearly every way to the original campaign, and even if I hadn't, I can't remotely see getting so worked up about it...let alone so worked up as to whine incessantly about it, as happened there and now here with these articles.
Honestly, it just reminds me of that nut in "Misery", who couldn't stand "her" character being killed off by the author -- "I'm your biggest fan!"
Seriously, fine, you didn't like it! We get the idea! We don't care!
(Good thing I'm not on the Paizo PR team, eh?)
(Good thing I'm not on the Paizo PR team, eh?)
Meh, this isn't the forum to discuss the merits of SotSM.
Anyways, let me just say that I hope that Paizo can find a nice middle ground to satify everybody, from newbies to old grouches like some of us here. I sorta doubt it, but we can hope. At least we can hope we don't see round after round of flamewars...
Meh, this isn't the forum to discuss the merits of SotSM.
Er, note that I wasn't just talking about SotSM.
But in any event, it doesn't hurt us if they release badly done Dark Sun material. Hopefully it brings in some new interest. Besides, is it really that big a deal if some new people drop by the board who don't know everything there is to know about the setting?
Er, note that I wasn't just talking about SotSM.
It just kept coming up on a DS forum.
But in any event, it doesn't hurt us if they release badly done Dark Sun material. Hopefully it brings in some new interest. Besides, is it really that big a deal if some new people drop by the board who don't know everything there is to know about the setting?
It will happen, too. When Spider Moon (sorry, Night Druid!) came out, I saw a few people pop in and ask questions about the classic setting. I think that the same sort of thing can happen here as well.
It will happen, too. When Spider Moon (sorry, Night Druid!) came out, I saw a few people pop in and ask questions about the classic setting. I think that the same sort of thing can happen here as well.
I think I might have to hurt you, Dragonhelm... But back to the point, yes, you'll definately get newbies when these articles run. Happened every time something like this runs.
Sorry, man!
Sorry, man!
Ya, sure...I think I'm still going to have to hurtcha...;)
ANYWAYS, anyone want to speculate on the type of articles Dragon could/would do? Think they'll just do PrCs & feats (again), or might they tackle something else?
I also wouldn't mind seeing some expansion to the setting in general, as in new places, another continent, etc.
But I'm weary that it won't be any good regardless. Oh well, just have to wait and see, maybe they will surprise me and be really good this time around, or at least have more things that I might want to use in my campaign.
I wouldn't mind seeing an outline or something going into more detail about what transpired between Revised and 200 years later.
From what Erik Mona has said on the thread over at Paizo, I wouldn't expect too many connections with Dave Noonan's version:
To be clear, however, I would do these as more "faithful" adaptations than Shadow of the Spider Moon, and wouldn't advance the timeline by hundreds of years as we did in the case of Dark Sun.
I have really been enjoying Dragon & Dungeon since Erik took the helm and actually am pretty hopeful that we'll see some very decent articles.
I wouldn't mind seeing an outline or something going into more detail about what transpired between Revised and 200 years later.
I also wouldn't mind seeing some expansion to the setting in general, as in new places, another continent, etc.
Hmmm, how, pray tell, can you have new continents when you don't have oceans? ;)
My guess is they'll use the tried & true "feats, PrCs, & spells" method they apply to everything else. Maybe toss in a NPC that's 3 pages of stats and 2 sentences of background
What I wouldn't mind seeing would be to explore how Athas "fell" through the ages, showing how a world can go from paradise to hell through the actions of evil men. Just a thought
From what Erik Mona has said on the thread over at Paizo, I wouldn't expect too many connections with Dave Noonan's version:
Ok, that leaves me with some hope then.
I have really been enjoying Dragon & Dungeon since Erik took the helm
Where as it's been hit or miss with me since he took the helm, but not sure if that is because of him, or I'm not finding the articles as useful anymore because I'm not gaming or running a campaign right now, or some other reason (I'm voting for a combination of the latter two at this point).
I will admit though that March's issue, with the Eberron drow was very good and a welcome change from the previous few months before that it didn't really spark my interest.
And no it doesn't just use feats and PrCs to build a race, though it does change some PrCs around to expand the race some, as well as do the new feats. Had to look the article over again to verify that. What they did with the soulknife was cool, which basically allowed you to manifest a bow and arrows instead of a knife, though there are limits to the arrows.
Oh well, hopefully I can snag the issues when they come out with no problem since I don't have a subscription anymore and don't plan on renewing anytime soon.
Hmmm, how, pray tell, can you have new continents when you don't have oceans? ;)
Silt "oceans" you dork. You knew what I meant.
:P
Besides, there is suppose to be an ocean of water somewhere, esp if they stick to the Barsoom theme.
What I wouldn't mind seeing would be to explore how Athas "fell" through the ages, showing how a world can go from paradise to hell through the actions of evil men. Just a thought
If you mean basically expanding on the already established history, then I wouldn't mind seeing this either.
Silt "oceans" you dork. You knew what I meant.
Dork? Dork?!?! Now that's just being mean ;)
:P
Besides, there is suppose to be an ocean of water somewhere, esp if they stick to the Barsoom theme.
If you mean basically expanding on the already established history, then I wouldn't mind seeing this either.
Ya, basically tell the tale of Athas' fall, with an eye on how such a fall could happen to other worlds.
My guess is they'll use the tried & true "feats, PrCs, & spells" method they apply to everything else. Maybe toss in a NPC that's 3 pages of stats and 2 sentences of background
I keep seeing this with you, can you elaborate on what you mean? Mainly cause I'm curious. I don't mind feats, PrCs, etc. as long as they aren't overdone, and I will agree that the feat system has been abused for some time IMO, and the PrC system is getting damn close.
I will agree however that there isn't enough fluff in most of 3e these days, and that's a major dissapointment. It seems to prefer stats and mechanics over fluff these days.
I also wouldn't mind seeing some expansion to the setting in general, as in new places, another continent, etc.
Like the over looked Sundered Regions ? :D
Like the over looked Sundered Regions ? :D
Well hell, let's link up. Didn't know you were on Multiply too.
Well hell, let's link up. Didn't know you were on Multiply too.
You have a site there as well?
You have a site there as well?
Yep, just sent you a request. Although I could have sworn I sent you an invite when I signed up last week.
For all those interested:
http://nytcrawlr.multiply.com/
Or just go to the homepage and sign up, then link to us:
http://multiply.com/
Cliff is on here as well.
Anyone else wants an invite, let me know what your email is and I'll send you one.
This way we can have offtopic chatter without going off topic on these boards, or at least cut it out some, heh.
I keep seeing this with you, can you elaborate on what you mean? Mainly cause I'm curious. I don't mind feats, PrCs, etc. as long as they aren't overdone, and I will agree that the feat system has been abused for some time IMO, and the PrC system is getting damn close.
I will agree however that there isn't enough fluff in most of 3e these days, and that's a major dissapointment. It seems to prefer stats and mechanics over fluff these days.
Some of the books I've gotten in the past have been 50%+ feats, PrCs, and like material...in a setting book. Last book I got that was this bad was Unapproachable East, which has the distinction of being the last 3e/d20 book I bought up until Lost Empires. Did pick up some Dungeons recently (to get the GH map), and the adventures were mediocre. Don't know what the current situation is, but I can't imagine its changed much when the covers of every Dragon proclaim the number of feats & PrCs inside
Anyways, you asked ;)
Some of the books I've gotten in the past have been 50%+ feats, PrCs, and like material...in a setting book.
Agreed, and it's a bit disturbing to me too.
I would suggest looking at more D20 stuff then and less WotC D&D stuff, cause I've noticed it's not as bad in this realm. Especially some of the lesser known companies out there.
Thanks for sharing though.
Agreed, and it's a bit disturbing to me too.
I would suggest looking at more D20 stuff then and less WotC D&D stuff, cause I've noticed it's not as bad in this realm. Especially some of the lesser known companies out there.
Thanks for sharing though.
Heh, well, just the opinion of this cranky old gamer. I trying not to be negative and remain hopeful that they do something new. I really would like to see something new, but past experiences has left me jaded.
Heh, well, just the opinion of this cranky old gamer. I trying not to be negative and remain hopeful that they do something new. I really would like to see something new, but past experiences has left me jaded.
No problem, we'll just start a cranky old gamer club, you can be President and I can be VP, heh.
Like the over looked Sundered Regions ? :D
wow that is something else Sysane! looks hand drawn, no? but is quality stuff!
wow that is something else Sysane! looks hand drawn, no? but is quality stuff!
It is. I drew that map almost 7 years ago.